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Author Topic: Code Geass R2  (Read 79099 times)

Offline Bizzy_King

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #165 on: September 29, 2008, 01:47:49 PM »
to be totally honest i believe lulu had too much pride to not go thru with his suicidal plan.... but being in the he's alive camp, and the fact that nunnly had a code flash back, and this series has pulled soo many other things outta its @$$ that i think for an ova we could see a lil glimpse of him in the future


... plus who else is smart enuff to kill themself and live

Offline Bizzy_King

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #166 on: September 29, 2008, 01:53:28 PM »
On a different note, I hope that Lelouch ends up being the last "Carrying a Cross" character we see in years. After a performance like that, anything like it will just be insipid by comparison.

As for the preceding episodes being brain frying, at the very least, it was done without any sort of character derailment. The only person who's intentions really changed was Suzaku, and that was justified by him losing it. As insane as it was, you got to give some props for them being able to keep the characters consistent in their actions.

I concur

Offline C0MPL3X

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #167 on: September 29, 2008, 03:52:34 PM »
C0MPL3X:  You've been reading anime|otaku, I take it.  I like Michael's theories, but his bias is obvious (and shared by you, I'm guessing :p)

I guess one way to think of it is that Lelouch serves CC by being alive, but serves himself (at least any prevailing sense of honour he had) by being dead.  The question is, who does he hold in higher esteem, CC or Nunnally, Suzaku and the Black Knights.  I guess one could reason that, of those, only CC never once betrayed him.  That's probably the best argument for him being alive that I can think of.
O...I've been reading BIT MORE than his blog but he was kind enough to organise key ammunitions I needed to support my view.

Although I still have to disagree with Michale's approach. I've said this before but people are far more interested in plausibility and that's a fruitless endeavour because like you've mentioned, his bias is glaringly obvious. What he calls "firm evidence{s}" are nothing more than vague signs that hint towards a certain possibility. Therefore, I agree that it all ultimately boils down to how you want to see Lelouch and CC as characters and how their relationship to be resolved (or not resolved).

I saw the possibility of Lelouch keeping true to his deceitful and manipulative nature (rather than revealing his true intentions to those he cared about as he died), running off with his partner C.C after everything went just as planned. And the notion of C2 and R2 travelling around for eternity is far more inviting to me than Lelouch living inside CC's heart or something more sentimental. This completely changes the way we view Lelouch and CC so I'd much prefer people look at the difference the interpretations would bring to the characters and not whether something is more plausible than another because the very nature of an open ending demands no concrete plausibility.

I also realise that lot of people in "alive camp" sees Lelouch really intending to die heroically, only to find himself awake next to C.C. I think this greatly diminishes the impact and meaning of his death scene and almost reduces it to an absurd comedy.

As for responding to RC's post...

- C.C's name is never revealed. C.C's real name is two words, which C.C reveals to Lelouch by mistake. C.C is a codename, possibly standing for Collective Consciousness. Or Cheese Crust.

- "Fabulous" is a Geass meme referring to how FABULOUS Code Geass is despite it being a complete trainwreck (I wouldn't go far as calling it complete trainwreck, since final few episodes do have coherency and wrap up key loops)

- Your previous post pretty much summed up why season one is superior to R2. Its writing is very weak, but I think it managed to excel in entertainment department and as an entertainment that ranks very high on my list. And it's not so much worse than its prequel to deserve a whole rating lower imo, so 7/10 from me.

Another flaw I wish to mention about R2 is its failure to orchestrate so much plot lines into one epic finale. In terms of interweaving monstrous amount of plots, involving both individual characters and their interactions with not one but several other characters, Infinite Ryvius is at the top tier. I expected better from the same director but o well. That's what irks me the most, because I wanted to see much more from CC and Lelouch, from Kallen and Gino (which was starting to develop I thought), Anya and her past (which turned out to be lazy plot hack...I had a Geass that lives through someone's body! Man I cried so hard at that scene) and the list just goes on...

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #168 on: September 29, 2008, 07:18:25 PM »
Lelouch being alive would ruin the ending.
Sunrise made this show.
Therefore...
Sunrise ruined this ending.

Yep, he's he dude driving the wagon at the end there.  No way around it.  I was actually ready to weep for the ****er, too.
I'm just like you, only smarter™.

Offline Ascaloth

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #169 on: September 29, 2008, 07:26:23 PM »
@Sorrow,

Eh heh heh.  ;D

@RC,

As far as I know, this blog is the originator of the "Code Geass is FABULOUS" meme.

Offline Sorrow-kun

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #170 on: September 29, 2008, 10:09:21 PM »
You know, it only just now occurred to me that the ambiguousness of Lelouch's fate makes Code Geass' ending a cop-out.  I mean, after reading what seems like a million blog posts speculating on whether Lelouch is alive or dead, all each as plausible and logical as each other, it just shows that there's a lack of really decisive evidence to indicate either way.  Everyone seems to know what happened to Lelouch, but no one seems to agree.  They've left such a massive and important hole between Lelouch's death and CC's final scene.  So, what do people do: they think up the ending that satisfies themselves.  It's a cop-out on Sunrise's part because rather than potentially piss off a portion of the fanbase, they've gone with an ending which encourages people to fill in the holes themselves, and people are generally going with the ending that makes them happiest.

It's kinda like the ending of 5cm Per Second, which was the aspect of that film that annoyed me the most.  It's not great storytelling, if you ask me though.  "Make your own ending up, we don't have the balls to present something decisive".  A bit disappointing from a show that, if nothing else, couldn't be questioned for lack of balls before this point.

Offline Shadowmage

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #171 on: September 29, 2008, 10:48:34 PM »
While I do agree that the ending is pretty much a cop out, I don't really agree with the sentiment that Sunrise did this because they lacked balls.  In my opinion, the company left the ending ambiguous simply to get a strong public reaction.  Code Geass R2 has pretty much been written (and drawn) so that it maximizes the buzz from the fanbase.  I have a feeling that they had a good grasp of where they wanted to go with this, but much of their finer details seem tailored to pander to fans (Orange, Ninja maid, etc.) and thus, create even more hype.   

Who knows, perhaps if you collect all the BluRays, crack a secret code from each of the disks and input it a super secret website, there's a low quality stream of the actual ending. 

I recommend Mobile Suit, RX-0 and Unicorn from the Unicorn OST.

Offline C0MPL3X

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #172 on: September 29, 2008, 11:13:43 PM »
Considering how my favourite director's signature trait is leaving us with totally ambiguous ending, I don't see why it's a bad thing. They're ambiguous exactly because there is a massive hole that you can't fill, otherwise you're going to have another highly probable "answer" handed to your platter. The very purpose of ambiguous ending is to force you to confront your themes and answer for yourself rather than having an answer delivered to you, although I have to say that I'd much prefer people engage in "filling in" more thematically and character-driven issues, rather than the question of plausibility. I am not sure what distinguishes between a good or bad open ending (and I'd say the final "zomg" arrived too sudden and without any significant build up compared to majority of open endings I've been exposed to), but I'm rather happy with what I got for now.

Offline Sorrow-kun

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #173 on: September 29, 2008, 11:55:22 PM »
I just consider denouement a really important aspect of storytelling.  I mean, the apparent meaning of the story is completely different depending on whether you think Lelouch is dead or alive.

I want to know who this favourite director is, but for fun I'll take a blind guess: Sofia Coppola?

Shadowmage:  That's a pretty cynical way to look at things as well. :p I mean, they didn't fail at that, that's for sure.  But I'm not sure it was the sole motivator in how they wrote that ending.  I mean, that'd make it less a "cop-out" and more a "sell-out".

Offline C0MPL3X

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #174 on: September 30, 2008, 01:21:21 AM »
Apparent meaning does change, which is part of the beauty of it I guess.

And you probably wouldn't know my favourite director, he's Korean (kekeke) but I think I've dropped his name enough here and there. Kim Ki Duk has such an unique and captivating style, there really is no one like him. You know those films, that you watch and instantly know who directed it? His works are one of them. He's not going to win Oscars anytime soon but he has several artsy ones like Cannes and Berlin up his sleeve.

I don't think his works are up your alley (very imagistic, poor on narrative side, ambiguity abound) but you might still enjoy 3-Iron and Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter...and Spring. Dheu loves the former and practically every critics appreciate the latter. Or if you want to see why he's so controversial, you should check out his The Isle. I'll tip my hat to whoever that can find a more bizarre and disturbing open ending.

Although if I have to pick one Korean film to recommend it would be Old Boy, no contest. Now that's how to do an ambiguous ending beautifully.

...well that was an epic off topic.

Offline sargeras66

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #175 on: November 10, 2008, 10:41:50 AM »
Hi, I just registered. I used to watch anime alot, but not so much lately. Anyways, when I saw this topic, I felt that I had to say something.

When I first saw Code Geass R1, I thought it had great potential. The characters were deep and complex. The storyline was exciting and compelling to watch and it always had the feeling that there was a much bigger picture and when it was revealed, it would just blow us away and we'd say "what an amazing plot! All that suspense and waiting was really worth it!" And the cliffhanger at the end of R1 made it even more compelling to watch it. But R2 just makes certain characters more annoying, makes the good characters dull, and doesn't really develop any of its characters. It bombards us with fan service which can get very annoying and creates a handful of super mechs that could destroy entire armies by themselves. I noticed it going downhill after a few episodes of seeing the Knights of Round (who aren't really that special), some weird plot holes, excessive fan service, Shirley's annoying infatuation with Lelouch which is supposedly "love" which now that I think about it was always annoying, and the fact that C.C and Kallen are always half-naked around Lelouch which just makes the show cliche and gives it a very shallow feeling, cheapening it. But I kept waiting for that one episode that would make sense of it all and turn the series around. And I thought it was episode 20, where Lelouch traps himself with his father, that was going to be the climax : the shocking truth would be revealed and the epic battle would begin. But boy was I wrong because that was actually the lowest point of the series, probably the worst episode ever! Charles and Marianne's intentions don't even make sense nor meet our expectations. It was like "that's it!??! That's the big picture??". And at the end when Suzaku joins up with him which is absurd, they are in school uniforms!! How cliche is that?! The series was just a huge letdown for me. I didn't get the masterfully crafted storyline I was waiting for and I ended up hating every single character in the show except Diethard who has always been my favorite.

Online AC

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #176 on: November 11, 2008, 02:19:10 AM »
Hi, welcome to NHRW.

Erm... I always thought that Kallen's half-naked nature is one of the best aspects of Code Geass R2. Yeah, it serves no purpose to the show but it's legendary (may I say this?). I won't forget this for a very long time. Other than that, Code Geass R2 is a disappointment for trying too hard to be great by putting more of everything from R1. Some of the R1 plot devices are tolerable but the ones in R2 are just plain ridiculous.

Offline AH

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Re: Code Geass R2
« Reply #177 on: November 15, 2008, 04:59:00 PM »
It's funny you would say that because I actually felt like registering to provide a dissenting opinion, though it may come off as a rant. If it helps, I am currently watching Tytania, of all things, and am glad that show won't really divide its particular audience, as relatively small as it is. This won't surprise a couple of people, I'm sure, but most won't care either way.

I'll be honest and get a few basics out of the way. I think Code Geass is very entertaining and has some interesting elements, but it was never that great. Code Geass has always been ridiculous, it's always pandered too much, the writing was very uneven and looser than it should have been, the cast was too large...I could go on, but is a full list even necessary? The first season gets, if you really want to push it, a weak 8/10. Probably closer to a strong 7/10, to be strict, but still not to the point of being some kind of masterpiece.

Many problems were already there, from a purely (or exclusively) critical perspective. Taking it seriously in whole or in part requires a high suspension of disbelief. The more cynical you are, the less you're probably going to enjoy it. I don't think that principle significantly changed during the second season. It was just tested more frequently and magnified by the circumstances.

Maybe too many people placed the first series in a pedestal that was never really there. When faced with an inferior sequel that dared to go against popular expectations in ways both good and bad, viewers became far more reactionary and unpleasable in the process. Others were already only partially tolerant of it all and lost what little patience they had. Something like that.

For me, there was some form of amusement in watching the Internet meltdown week after week but ironically...that wasn't how I felt. I was having fun with the show, with its serious and ridiculous sides, not with the external memes. Frankly, for all of R2's flaws and questionable staff decisions, I really do think the series was enjoyable and, dare I say, even under-appreciated as a result of the relentless bashing it has suffered. Which still doesn't make it great, oh certainly not, but far from the unredeemable disaster others have described. I'd say R2 gets a strong 6/10 or a weak 7/10, more or less.

I can agree with a number of the more common complaints (say, an excessively large cast of secondary/tertiary characters without enough development and noticeable pacing issues which weren't helped by an increasing number of plot twists) but without going into total overkill mode and being unable to acknowledge any positives at all.

For instance, I actually liked how several important characters, obviously including Lelouch himself, were handled. No, I didn't find their actions "annoying" or "stupid" even if my own personal desires (what I originally wanted to see) were different. I question the execution of certain plot points, but that doesn't mean they are always totally gratuitous and unexplainable. The final arc took quite a few risks by heading in an unexpected direction, to be sure, but it wasn't what I'd call "senseless". I do feel somewhat cheated by a few of the unanswered Geass-related questions, but the ending as a whole leaves me fairly satisfied and not angry.

And for the record, as far as fanservice goes....it may be because I am an unashamed viewer of considerably more risqué or frankly explicit materials, but the fanservice doesn't really jump at me like some huge positive or negative. It's just there, no big deal. Admittedly, others may have different tastes and tolerances.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 06:25:43 PM by AH »
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