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October 21, 2017, 02:24:56 PM
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Author Topic: Re:Creators  (Read 4673 times)

Offline AC

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Re:Creators
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2017, 05:58:41 AM »
1:

...why does Meteora summon bazookas that shoot missiles? Can't she just summon missiles?

Boring protagonist. Strong female lead. Archetype for a sidekick. Menacing villain. Sawano Hiroyuki cool music. Yeah, generic action show. Not expecting much, even if the director is Aoki Ei. Could end up being a Fate ZERO or an Aldnoah Zero.

Wait, what is it with Aoki and zeroes?

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2017, 10:46:09 AM »
[Mumbling to self.] Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck like...

[Watch ep 2.]

Squeeee!!!

[The cats dive for cover under the couch.]

2:

I love it.

In the OP we see Sota and his eyeglasses reflected in a handful of water that transition to the mousy girl falling in a sea of blue with her eyeglasses coming off. Is she somehow connected to Sota?  Whatever is going on, eyeglasses represent something important.

Meteora: "My world also had enough information to construct worlds. But all of the information in this world is multilayered. [She picks a flower and studies it.]  Even trivial pieces of information are so complex that they cannot be represented by a single number."

Exactly!  She gets it.

Spoiler for geekout on transfinity:
Meteora's statement - that her world can create subrealities and that her own world is one too - is a sign that we are indeed dealing with a situation that has nested realities with ever increasing complexity. Each system is a representative of a particular class of such systems with unknown cardinality.

If GCH is true (and I believe it is) then we have a hierarchy of classes of systems that can be well ordered by increasing cardinality (orders of complexity), such that each infinite class of systems is in a sense more 'complex', or rather more infinite (a higher Cantor cardinal), than the infinite classes of systems they happen to contain. Since they are well ordered (GCH implies no gaps) you can assign each cardinal a relative complexity indicator (a level number) that corresponds to it - not to any particular system but rather to the degree of complexity of that class of systems.

[Peb: You are right, I had goofed up the definition of cardinality upthread when I oversimplified it as isomorphic maps of sets rather than descriptions of orders of complexity for construction of Cantor transfinite sets (classes of systems of infinite sets).]

Then at 8:00,

Spoiler for Celestia and Meteora's speculation:
In wondering where LGB had come from, Celestia speculated that Sota's world (the current one) "might be part of the story made by someone else somewhere."  Meteora replied, "I do not disagree. Actually I think the possibility is high."   So here at episode 2 we find Celestia and Meteora already suspecting that there exists a reality above the current one where someone is creating a 'story' for their current world.

And so we have have no less than *four* nested realities mentioned in this one episode: 1) The subrealities in Meteora's world, 2) Meteora's world, 3) Sota's world (the current one), and 4) LGB's world (Celestia and Meteora's speculation). 

(And of course there is a fifth one: The world where Rei Hiroe and you and I live - but they have no way of knowing that [yet].)

We get more info about Sota.

Spoiler for motives of Sota and LGB:
We again are told that Sota hasn't created anything in a while. And he is too ashamed to show his old sketches. (One is apparently a catgirl.) This again indicates possible motives for LGB.

Poor Mamika. Actual damage? Injury? Blood? No wonder she doesn't like this world.

This just keeps getting more and more fun.

Edit: I am going to go out on a limb and take a wild guess here at ep 2:

Spoiler for wild guess about Sota's identity:
The OP hints at a deep connection between Sota and mousy girl. Wild guess: Mousy girl is the real Creator of Sota's world and she created LGB.  She also created Sota, whose purpose is to remember (record) everything as the narrator of her story. Recall that Sota's first words in ep 1 were that he was *not* the MC (he was only somebody 'like you or me') and he admitted that he was only a narrator of a 'story above all stories'.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 02:11:53 PM by HuuskerDu »
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Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2017, 04:38:39 PM »
2:

That was less exciting than episode one. We're getting very exposition and talk-heavy, which is unfortunately paired with some people yelling their lines Attack on Titan style.

I'm really hoping they don't go for lots of meta stuff, and  start showcasing a bunch of character archetypes just for the sake of inclusion. This show has the opportunity to have literally any kind of character, without it jarring with the setting. I hope they don't waste it by parading around the same old characters we've seen a thousand times. 
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Offline gedata

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2017, 05:38:14 PM »
I fail to see the point of the main character. Couldn't the light novel author have taken that position? He has more of a personal connection as a Creator after all.

Offline Pebble

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2017, 07:58:55 PM »
@HuskerDu
Spoiler for abstract nonsense:
the definition of cardinality upthread when I oversimplified it as isomorphic maps of sets rather than descriptions of orders of complexity for construction of Cantor transfinite sets (classes of systems of infinite sets).
To be honest I dont really understand what this means. I have a feeling you're coming at this from a theoretical CS perpective that Im unfamiliar with.

If GCH is true (and I believe it is) then we have a hierarchy of classes of systems that can be well ordered by increasing cardinality (orders of complexity), such that each infinite class of systems is in a sense more 'complex', or rather more infinite (a higher Cantor cardinal), than the infinite classes of systems they happen to contain. Since they are well ordered (GCH implies no gaps) you can assign each cardinal a relative complexity indicator (a level number) that corresponds to it - not to any particular system but rather to the degree of complexity of that class of systems.

More pedantry: if there are levels for infinite cardinals they wont actually necessarily be well ordered by cardinality. If for example one level L is of cardinality alpha, and for each level at most α subworlds per world then the level above L (which is guaranteed to exist actually though it could be empty) has at most cardianlity alpha (thats a result in cardinal arithmetic that α*β=max{α, β}; this follows from α*α=α which you usually get by transfinite induction. I havent seen a proof that doesnt use Trans. Induction but I hear they are obnoxiously technical). That is to say if you have a cardinal bound on the number of derived worlds per world then you have the same cardinal bound for the cardinality of the entire system (aleph-0 if everything is finite; α if every world has at most α derived worlds).

A perhaps more intuitive explanation of why such systems could be far simpler than you might guess is the notion of strongly inacessible cardinals. Intuituively these are sets of such large cardinality that the usual operations of set theory, including powerset, just cant get you to sets that large. E.g the set of all natural numbers is not something you can obtain by pairings, products or powersets or unions of sets of strictly lower (i.e. finite) cardinality. I dont think anyone has proven the existence of larger inacessible cardinals (though Tarski did once suggest you should treat it as an axiom for funsies). In fact in some treatments of set theory you require the axioms of infinity and the replacement axiom schema to even be able to construct the natural numbers. That is to say that directly or indirecly we need a separate axiom just to force infinite cardinals to exist.
Anyway problems arise when you realize the set aleph-0 (natural numbers) is actually strongly inacessible.

My point is that we all believe in natural numbers but just the fact that L(n) exists for all natural numbers n doesnt actually imply that there is an L-infinity (or L(α) for any infinite cardinal). Your assertion that there are infinite levels or even levels with an infinite number of things is actually also a matter of faith. In fact GCH doesnt give you infinite cardinals either; it assumes infinite cardinals; though I suppose that means if youre willing to believe GCH you're willing to believe in infinite cardinals.

Again what I dont follow is why you think THIS system in particular has Levels corresponding to infinite ordinals/cardinals or even levels of with an infinite number of worlds, as opposed to the entire system being at most countable with levels of finite cardinality.

[Mumbling to self.] Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck
Wow that show relly traumatized you didnt it.

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2017, 09:13:22 PM »
Spoiler for transfinite blah blah:
Your assertion that there are infinite levels or even levels with an infinite number of things is actually also a matter of faith. In fact GCH doesnt give you infinite cardinals either; it assumes infinite cardinals; though I suppose that means if youre willing to believe GCH you're willing to believe in infinite cardinals.

You are right, GCH is unproven, so yes it is a matter of choosing to whether to assume it or not.  I had mentioned earlier that I was doing that.  Why?  Per Wikipedia:

Quote from: Wikipedia
Historically, mathematicians who favored a "rich" and "large" universe of sets were against CH, while those favoring a "neat" and "controllable" universe favored CH. Parallel arguments were made for and against the axiom of constructibility, which implies CH.

I am in the "neat and controllable" universe camp (for ontological reasons).   (Aside: It is really fascinating to me how the battle for proving/disproving CH among mathematicians seems to correlate to their ontological POV.)  Anyway, assuming GCH and AC gives you an easy way to construct a proof for the existence of an infinite stack of cardinals using Cantor's aleph hypothesis.

Again what I dont follow is why you think THIS system in particular has Levels corresponding to infinite ordinals/cardinals or even levels of with an infinite number of worlds, as opposed to the entire system being at most countable with levels of finite cardinality.

This is where we admittedly get into hand wave territory.  The problem is that we don't know enough about how these realities work in the context of the story.  All we know right now is that Meteora says that that Sota's world is somehow more 'complex' than her own. It is 'multilayered' (whatever that means) and 'cannot be represented by a single number'. The latter is a much more interesting and concrete statement that seems to indicate that Sota's world operates at a cardinal above |aleph-null| and maybe even above |aleph-1| (the continuum), depending on how she defines a 'single number' (integer or real).  Either way it shows that there is a concept of higher order complexity operating within the mechanics of the story.

Anyway, it is rather odd that LGB still doesn't have a name yet. This was mentioned specifically in ep 2.  'Gunpuku no Himegimi' translates as "princess in military uniform", which is only descriptive (and it was used that way in the sub). 

So why is LGB being so careful to hide her real name?  (The new boss guy also wondered aloud about revealing one's real name so cavalierly, as if it was tactically a foolish thing to do.)
 
I wonder if we have a True Names situation, where you if you learn your opponent's True Name you can defeat/control/uplift/downlift said opponent, sort of like how once a software app knows a file's name it can open a handle on it to move/copy/modify/delete it.

[Mumbling to self.] Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck
Wow that show relly traumatized you didnt it.

Given that I'm suffering from early stage Alzheimer's the idea of transferring and preserving memories of the soon-to-be-departed is something I'm rather keen on, so yeah.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 09:28:35 PM by HuuskerDu »
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Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2017, 10:55:04 PM »
!

Jesus Christ
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Offline AC

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Re:Creators
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2017, 06:03:33 AM »
2:

I swear, I thought I was re-watching Aldnoah:ZERO.

Interesting concept: fantasy characters come to life. This is nothing new, mind you, but what's new is that characters from different fantasy worlds are coming to life. That's interesting... like Toaru Majutsu no Index where magic and science come to one. This is where I start to worry: that show is bullshit. I hope this one isn't. The show has hinted that it tries to explain the whole laws of physics behind it, but I really hope it stops there.

I'm okay with what's happening so far. It's fun and the whole stylish treatment this show gets is doing good. So please, don't try to be smart. I prefer a show that is self-aware with its stupidity than one that is pretentious with intellect.

Online TypicalIdiotFan

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Re:Creators
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2017, 08:16:57 PM »
Remember your Valvrave!  Information is made up of physical particles!
I'm just like you, only smarter™.

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2017, 10:48:25 AM »
3:

In a dramatic scene, Sawano Hiroyuki's intensely kinetic background music swells up to AoT/Kabaneri level as Celestia dramatically unsheathes Enraiha and...
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Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2017, 07:59:11 PM »
3:

I really thought that'd work, but in retrospect they could immediately ascend to godmode. What if you made a character the new author, the they started changing their self?
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Offline AC

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Re:Creators
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2017, 06:15:28 AM »
3:

I have a favorite and non-favorite character in this show.

My favorite is Mirokuji. He's a cross between a realist and a fatalist: on other hand, he logically arrives to correct conclusions about the collision of the worlds and just accepts whatever has transpired. On the other hand, he thinks it's useless to go against reality and nothing really matters. Of course, his character is the result of his creator's work and he doesn't see the point seeing him as God because he's not and he knows that (and he's right too). What does matter to him? Economic exchanges, allies, reciprocity... the usual themes of a shounen story featuring an anti-hero. His hypothesis that he was chosen because of the popularity of his world matters, is fascinating though. Is this actually the work of his creator, or Mirokuji's free will at responding to the new reality?

My least favorite? Meteora. I have nothing against her. She's made out to be the character archetype who is cool/calm/collected/analytical/whatever. There's always such a character in a fantasy story. But what I don't like is how she analyzes how the world works. That's our job as the audience. Why have a character who does the explaining for us... that's what ruined shows like Index. So far, it's just tackling issues of cause and effect, and it's so far so good. and I'm thankful for that.

Speaking of which, I want to do a Meteora and ask some questions worth thinking about. Will Selesia's character ultimately change after this whole experience since she's acting out on her own volition away from her creator's influence (she's not fighting with the creator simply because the creator created her to do so; it's clearly out of free will)? How would you react if someone knows your future: pretend not to hear it and let fate, or ask the creator to burn the new releases and rewrite the story?

I will clarify myself: I do NOT want this show to tackle the laws of physics and the science gumbo ŕ la Index, but I do want to see it address causality topics.

Offline Zeitgeist

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2017, 11:49:02 AM »
4:

So Meteroa just outright explains the character arc she just underwent in a lengthy and often redundant dialogue scene. Riveting. She then goes on to explain the plot. Well at least all of this in character, right?

The second lengthy dialogue sequence was actually enjoyable since it was set a montage of enjoyable character moments.

How do you arrive at the conclusion "The person whom created her must exist somewhere in this world" when you literally yesterday discovered that your own creator is dead. Also I wonder if Meteora's Creator's "accident" was actually an accident. From what was shown regarding Princess' plan it most likely was just an accident so as to create some existential crisis for Meteora which differs from Selesia's.

Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2017, 03:57:46 PM »
4:

I was going to say what you just said. The resolution is uninteresting anyways, there's no need for Selesia and the rest to know about it; just show Meteora playing the game in the cafe, and zoom in on a satisfied look on her face. Leave the rest implied. That's all you have to do. "I was going to watch the world burn but now I'm OK" should be the entire character arc of a story, and definitely does not belong in a five minute conversation filled with exposition. You're really starting to let me down here, Re:Creators.

On the topic of the "Great Destruction", I have a better name for it. It's called bad writing. The idea is that too many contradictions, or things that don't make sense, will cause the world to collapse. But you don't need to bring characters from other worlds where different rules of reality apply; as a creator, you can just forget to follow your own rules, and BAM-the story sucks and no one reads it. Since in this anime, popularity is somehow important, that could very well lead to the 'end' of a universe. Amusingly, the implication would be that this anime will be about trying to not suck.

The second half was decent. Alicetaria is a character whose appearance was inevitable given the setting, but she fills her role well. What I'm hoping for is a character who fills the reverse role, of actually wanting to return. He would of course be a harem protagonist.

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Offline Gadget

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2017, 08:17:02 PM »
4
Sounds like Marvel 616 is going to collide with other Marvel universe. Or DC's Crsis.

I think the real 'God' is Souta. The characters appear because of his perception. Takashi Matsubara, Celestia's createtor, like he did not know who the Magical Girl or Mirokuji was, but Souta knows them. My feeling is that the Military Princess was Souta's past abandon LN project.

 
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