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Author Topic: Re:Creators  (Read 4672 times)

Offline Stark700

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Re:Creators
« on: April 07, 2017, 09:45:47 AM »
1:

Saw it on Anime Strike today.

The MC is pretty generic and not impressive but he gets himself caught into another world. I think the highlight of the show/episode is the music so far. Very noticeable soundtrack.

The place Celestia came from is mysterious so I hope they explore more that later. They didn't waste much time introducing Gunpuku no Himegimi into this show either. Plenty of action so far. Not all the main characters were introduced yet and we didn't see much of the OP song clips. However, I think the show itself establishes its premise already. Episode ends with the quote 'only takes 1 second for the world to change'. It's 22 episodes (2 cour) so plenty of time to develop the story and characters.

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2017, 12:47:40 PM »
1:

Yes Yes Yes!

There is so much information packed into this ep that I don't know where to begin.   Oh, the possibilities hinted...

TROYCA outdid themselves. The shot compositions and storyboarding were outstanding: The opening scene of the rail crossing pole lowering from the POV of the pole, the reflection seen in the MC's glasses, it all has meaning.  (POV is important, what we think we see is important.)  I spotted a bunch of other possible hints but I need to watch it again a few more times.  (If I am right then prepare for major mind screwing.) Pay attention to the ep titles.

The visual quality of the city aerial fight scene was on the level of a grail battle in FSN/UBW, simply amazing. The arrogant opponent is worthy of Gilgamesh (and I think I know why she is like that).

I WANT THAT SOUNDTRACK.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 01:53:36 PM by HuuskerDu »
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Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2017, 05:46:33 PM »
1:

Woah. That was way, way better than I expected; probably the best opening of the season so far. We've seen the main character dragged into a fantasy world a million times, but the idea of having not just one, but potentially all fictional characters gathering in the real world is tantalizing. That's an ambitious premise full of potential.

And so far, the directing is definitely on-track to realize that potential. I love the little touches that ground the setting in reality, despite all the fantasy stuff. For example, Selesia jabs her sword through the window to open it; when they get back, it's still broken.

There's just one little thing I'm worried about. For the love of god, DO NOT TURN INTO A HAREM.
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Offline Zeitgeist

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2017, 06:58:04 PM »
1:

Fairly Odd Parents - Channel Chasers: The Anime or ir is just Tsubasa Chronicles? Or is it just some wannabeFate-nonsense given the director. Aleast they may or may not be creating their own fake IP's.
Some hideous designs - Antagonist Girl + Princess(two-tone hair) +Dog Girl(she from Dog Days world?).
The mech was beautiful though
The two ally girls share both design sense and color scheme.

Seletia's world resembles Escaflowne.

I enjoyed deadpan girl's post-credit bullshit.

I'm pretty ambivalent as to the shows future glory. This episode was fun and had enjoyable music and that's really all that maters.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 07:05:55 PM by Zeitgeist »

Offline Gadget

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2017, 08:12:26 PM »
1
I make it simple.

It's Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe, with Being X in the backdrop of The Devil Is a Part Timer.

Offline Zeitgeist

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2017, 08:23:59 PM »
1
I make it simple.

It's Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe, with Being X in the backdrop of The Devil Is a Part Timer.

Hey I make the pointless references and equivalencies around here.

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2017, 08:31:54 PM »
The music composer is Sawano Hiroyuki, who composed the soundtracks for Attack on Titan, Guilty Crown, and Kabaneri.

Spoiler for speculation on future episodes and the concept of nested realities:
I think what we have here is a hierarchy of nested systems, where each system (or 'reality level' if you will) is both quantitatively and qualitatively 'bigger' in some sense than the reality levels contained within it.

If you have a computer background, one way to think of it is as a nested series of virtual machines (VMs), with each VM running inside a VM host that is 'bigger' both materially and conceptually than the VMs that it contains.

Another way to think of it is nested dream levels like in the film Inception, with its notion of a nested stack of dream levels, each controlled by a different person in the level above it.

More formally, you can create a model whereby each reality level Ln can be isomorphically mapped to an infinite set Sn that has a cardinal number אn, where אn+1 = 2אn per the Generalized Continuum Hypothesis (GCH).

I suspect that the reality stack depicted in Re:Creators has more than two levels in it. It might have three, four, or even more.  The in-story anime characters started at the bottom (level 1). The MC either started at level 2 or dropped down to 2 around the 4:00 mark when his tablet went kablooey. The Big Bad started at level 3 or 4. The author (Rei Hiroe) is at level 4 or 5. 

The big clue is when we see that the fantasy magic of the in-story anime characters still works up in the 'real world' where the MC lives.  Not so real then.

One way to pop up a level is to 'die' in that level. This happened in the film Inception, where a person can wake up from a dream level by killing themselves in that level.

This is what happned in ep 1 at 1:24 when the girl in the white dress apparently committed suicide at the train station by dropping in front of the speeding train. She was popping up a level.

The danger, however, is that this assumes that your 'real' self exists at a higher level of reality so you can pop back up to it.  If your assumption is wrong then you will become really dead, like when Mal jumped off the building in Inception when she mistakenly thought that she was still inside someone else's dream but she wasn't.

So now we know why the girl in the long military coat is such an arrogant little b*tch: she comes from a higher reality level and therefore is basically a goddess from the MC's POV.
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Offline Zeitgeist

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2017, 09:18:14 PM »
The music composer is Sawano Hiroyuki, who composed the soundtracks for Attack on Titan, Guilty Crown, and Kabaneri.

Spoiler for speculation on future episodes and the concept of nested realities:
I think what we have here is a hierarchy of nested systems, where each system (or 'reality level' if you will) is both quantitatively and qualitatively 'bigger' in some sense than the reality levels contained within it.

If you have a computer background, one way to think of it is as a nested series of virtual machines (VMs), with each VM running inside a VM host that is 'bigger' both materially and conceptually than the VMs that it contains.

Another way to think of it is nested dream levels like in the film Inception, with its notion of a nested stack of dream levels, each controlled by a different person in the level above it.

More formally, you can create a model whereby each reality level Ln can be isomorphically mapped to an infinite set Sn that has a cardinal number אn, where אn+1 = 2אn per the Generalized Continuum Hypothesis (GCH).

I suspect that the reality stack depicted in Re:Creators has more than two levels in it. It might have three, four, or even more.  The in-story anime characters started at the bottom (level 1). The MC either started at level 2 or dropped down to 2 around the 4:00 mark when his tablet went kablooey. The Big Bad started at level 3 or 4. The author (Rei Hiroe) is at level 4 or 5. 

The big clue is when we see that the fantasy magic of the in-story anime characters still works up in the 'real world' where the MC lives.  Not so real then.

One way to pop up a level is to 'die' in that level. This happened in the film Inception, where a person can wake up from a dream level by killing themselves in that level.

This is what happned in ep 1 at 1:24 when the girl in the white dress apparently committed suicide at the train station by dropping in front of the speeding train. She was popping up a level.

The danger, however, is that this assumes that your 'real' self exists at a higher level of reality so you can pop back up to it.  If your assumption is wrong then you will become really dead, like when Mal jumped off the building in Inception when she mistakenly thought that she was still inside someone else's dream but she wasn't.

So now we know why the girl in the long military coat is such an arrogant little b*tch: she comes from a higher reality level and therefore is basically a goddess from the MC's POV.

Spoiler for half-hearted response:
Just one question:
How does this serve the narrative?
I could devise some pretty sic power level chart with regards to the the Nasuverse but it doesnt make Fate/Zero anymore than a few basic ideological conflicts set within a needlessly meta world.
Does one's Origin World directly equate to their power? Would that reflect their introductory state or their potential for growth?
Establishing Quality of Worlds just seems restrictive.
Obviously the main cast will overcome so maybe not establish a hierarchy.
All this nonsense for what equates to "big narrative universe little substance".
For now I'm chalkin this up asies Clockwork Planet as a show with a cool world but throwaway story.[/spoler]

This may be the first Sawano Hiroyuki since Zombie Loan I ironically like.
 

Offline Gadget

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2017, 09:46:11 PM »


Spoiler for speculation on future episodes and the concept of nested realities:
I think what we have here is a hierarchy of nested systems, where each system (or 'reality level' if you will) is both quantitatively and qualitatively 'bigger' in some sense than the reality levels contained within it.

If you have a computer background, one way to think of it is as a nested series of virtual machines (VMs), with each VM running inside a VM host that is 'bigger' both materially and conceptually than the VMs that it contains.

Another way to think of it is nested dream levels like in the film Inception, with its notion of a nested stack of dream levels, each controlled by a different person in the level above it.

More formally, you can create a model whereby each reality level Ln can be isomorphically mapped to an infinite set Sn that has a cardinal number אn, where אn+1 = 2אn per the Generalized Continuum Hypothesis (GCH).

I suspect that the reality stack depicted in Re:Creators has more than two levels in it. It might have three, four, or even more.  The in-story anime characters started at the bottom (level 1). The MC either started at level 2 or dropped down to 2 around the 4:00 mark when his tablet went kablooey. The Big Bad started at level 3 or 4. The author (Rei Hiroe) is at level 4 or 5. 

The big clue is when we see that the fantasy magic of the in-story anime characters still works up in the 'real world' where the MC lives.  Not so real then.

One way to pop up a level is to 'die' in that level. This happened in the film Inception, where a person can wake up from a dream level by killing themselves in that level.

This is what happned in ep 1 at 1:24 when the girl in the white dress apparently committed suicide at the train station by dropping in front of the speeding train. She was popping up a level.

The danger, however, is that this assumes that your 'real' self exists at a higher level of reality so you can pop back up to it.  If your assumption is wrong then you will become really dead, like when Mal jumped off the building in Inception when she mistakenly thought that she was still inside someone else's dream but she wasn't.

So now we know why the girl in the long military coat is such an arrogant little b*tch: she comes from a higher reality level and therefore is basically a goddess from the MC's POV.

Please don't make my head pop.


Hey I make the pointless references and equivalencies around here.

Ahhh Sorry, (Check post)

Yo Zeitgeist, I got more post then yours. I'm sure  not all are sens less rambling. ;D

Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2017, 09:53:47 PM »
I'm not so enthusiastic.
Spoiler for nested realities:
It would make a great 'oh sh!t' moment to be sure, but I'm not sure we have enough episodes to make use of the reveal in a sensible way.

For one, at the moment it seems like people coming from a lower level are actually more powerful. They get to have whatever crazy fantasy powers you can dream of, and once they cross over into the world of their creators, they gain all the powers of a creator as well. For example, Selesia could hunt down the writer of her story and force him to give her a happy ending, or do whatever else she wants with her own world, basically making her god. She could also do the same with other writers, or even write her own story if she chose. Because of her fantasy powers, none of them can stop her. If there is a third level, then she's even more powerful, because if we cross over again, the people in the 'real' world can't threaten their creators with fantasy powers in the same way. Finally, if the smug girl IS a third-level creator, then she should be at her most vulnerable when in the world of her creation, because outside it she's god, whereas inside it she merely has fantasy powers. She might be very powerful, but she can't literally erase someone from existence with a sentence or two.
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Offline Zeitgeist

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2017, 10:02:20 PM »


Spoiler for speculation on future episodes and the concept of nested realities:
I think what we have here is a hierarchy of nested systems, where each system (or 'reality level' if you will) is both quantitatively and qualitatively 'bigger' in some sense than the reality levels contained within it.

If you have a computer background, one way to think of it is as a nested series of virtual machines (VMs), with each VM running inside a VM host that is 'bigger' both materially and conceptually than the VMs that it contains.

Another way to think of it is nested dream levels like in the film Inception, with its notion of a nested stack of dream levels, each controlled by a different person in the level above it.

More formally, you can create a model whereby each reality level Ln can be isomorphically mapped to an infinite set Sn that has a cardinal number אn, where אn+1 = 2אn per the Generalized Continuum Hypothesis (GCH).

I suspect that the reality stack depicted in Re:Creators has more than two levels in it. It might have three, four, or even more.  The in-story anime characters started at the bottom (level 1). The MC either started at level 2 or dropped down to 2 around the 4:00 mark when his tablet went kablooey. The Big Bad started at level 3 or 4. The author (Rei Hiroe) is at level 4 or 5. 

The big clue is when we see that the fantasy magic of the in-story anime characters still works up in the 'real world' where the MC lives.  Not so real then.

One way to pop up a level is to 'die' in that level. This happened in the film Inception, where a person can wake up from a dream level by killing themselves in that level.

This is what happned in ep 1 at 1:24 when the girl in the white dress apparently committed suicide at the train station by dropping in front of the speeding train. She was popping up a level.

The danger, however, is that this assumes that your 'real' self exists at a higher level of reality so you can pop back up to it.  If your assumption is wrong then you will become really dead, like when Mal jumped off the building in Inception when she mistakenly thought that she was still inside someone else's dream but she wasn't.

So now we know why the girl in the long military coat is such an arrogant little b*tch: she comes from a higher reality level and therefore is basically a goddess from the MC's POV.

Please don't make my head pop.


Hey I make the pointless references and equivalencies around here.

Ahhh Sorry, (Check post)

Yo Zeitgeist, I got more post then yours. I'm sure  not all are sens less rambling. ;D

Comin' in hot
But genuinely correct.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 10:26:05 PM by Zeitgeist »

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2017, 11:02:13 PM »
I'm not so enthusiastic.
Spoiler for nested realities:
It would make a great 'oh sh!t' moment to be sure, but I'm not sure we have enough episodes to make use of the reveal in a sensible way.

For one, at the moment it seems like people coming from a lower level are actually more powerful. They get to have whatever crazy fantasy powers you can dream of, and once they cross over into the world of their creators, they gain all the powers of a creator as well. For example, Selesia could hunt down the writer of her story and force him to give her a happy ending, or do whatever else she wants with her own world, basically making her god. She could also do the same with other writers, or even write her own story if she chose. Because of her fantasy powers, none of them can stop her. If there is a third level, then she's even more powerful, because if we cross over again, the people in the 'real' world can't threaten their creators with fantasy powers in the same way. Finally, if the smug girl IS a third-level creator, then she should be at her most vulnerable when in the world of her creation, because outside it she's god, whereas inside it she merely has fantasy powers. She might be very powerful, but she can't literally erase someone from existence with a sentence or two.

Well by that logic Rei Hiroe had better watch his back. :)

Spoiler for nested realities:
More seriously, all they are seeing is her level 2 virtual avatar.  And remember that she claimed that she was responsible for the uplifts. She did it, not them.  (Why? She said for 'punishment' but who knows.) They won't be able to do anything that she does not allow (unless she gets overconfident and fails to follow the Evil Overlord checklist or screws up some other way).
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Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2017, 12:28:21 AM »
Well that's a new spin on author self-insert.
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Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2017, 02:04:07 AM »
Hmm, Little General B*tch (for want of a better name) is acting rather odd...

Spoiler for speculation on LGB's origin:
Sometimes LGB acts like she is an entity that exists above level 2, and yet sometimes she acts like she came from level 1.  The evidence for the former is that LGB lifted up Meteora and Celestia herself (or so she claims), she seems to be invulnerable, she can de-rezz out of level 2 at will, and she is arrogant as all get out like Gilgamesh (complete with sword spamming). All this would seem to indicate that LGB is a powerful entity that exists above level 2.

And yet during the city fight she mentioned to Meteora that she herself was transported to the city by someone else. Earlier she looked quite surprised when Sota appeared on level 1 (Celestia's world), saying "[Sota] being transported to your [Celestia's] world is truly a curious development." She later gave Celestia high regard (relatively speaking), even offering Celestia a chance to join her, saying,  "My master liked you too."

Wait, LGB has a master? Who could that be?

Sota is a huge fan of Celestia. He snaps pictures of images of Celestia on street billboards. He searches for her on fan websites. He subscribes to a magazine featuring her on the cover.  Meanwhile he sits at his PC, which runs an Adobe Illustrator-like app, complete with a digital stylus and pad.  He's a creator himself.

LGB's cheesy military garb looks like something a teenager would create. 

(FWIW I don't think he's doing it consciously.)

So LGB's motive might be...

Spoiler for LGB's motive:
Assuming that Sota is unconsciously LGB's master, it offers an explanation of why LGB wants to punish the creators. It is because Sota wants to punish them himself (again unconsciously).  It might be because he doesn't have the creators' skill (in ep 1 he sat looking at a blank Illustrator page unable to draw anything), or perhaps his attempted manga submissions were cruelly rejected by potential publishers, or maybe his doujins suck and don't sell. We don't know yet. Whatever her motive it's tied to Sota.

In the post-ED scene, Meteora explained to Sota that all this might simply be his own hallucination - a Dorthy and the Wizard of Oz type situation. Like Dorothy, he might have bumped his head and this is all happening in a fevered dream. Meteora explained that there is no way for Sota to know for sure (she explicitly mentioned solipsism).

However, I don't think this is the case here. The suicide of the mousy girl in the white dress is a big clue.  If she was indeed popping up to level 3 it means that level 2 is not taking place in Sota's dream.

... and we have 22 eps to find out.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 02:33:41 AM by HuuskerDu »
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Offline Pebble

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2017, 09:01:21 PM »
1:

K. Im going to post my conjectures in response to HDu's.

Spoiler for Re:speculation:

I think what we have here is a hierarchy of nested systems, where each system (or 'reality level' if you will) is both quantitatively and qualitatively 'bigger' in some sense than the reality levels contained within it.
Yep.

More formally, you can create a model whereby each reality level Ln can be isomorphically mapped to an infinite set Sn that has a cardinal number אn, where אn+1 = 2אn per the Generalized Continuum Hypothesis (GCH).
I... dont think these 'reality levels' and cardinals are sufficiently similar to be "isomorphic". In any case this is just me kvetching about technicalities irrelevant to the show. Also you dont need GCH to show the higher alephs exist; thats a simpler result and just follows from Cantor's theorem + the well ordering of the cardinals (which follows rather trivially from the definition of a cardinal).

I suspect that the reality stack depicted in Re:Creators has more than two levels in it. It might have three, four, or even more.  The in-story anime characters started at the bottom (level 1). The MC either started at level 2 or dropped down to 2 around the 4:00 mark when his tablet went kablooey. The Big Bad started at level 3 or 4. The author (Rei Hiroe) is at level 4 or 5. 
Just speaking in terms of world mechanics we dont have any reason to believe that such a nested system be well founded (i.e. that there be a highest/lowest level level). That makes for quite a few annoyances. But I think Occam's razor can shave it down to a well-founded system based on Sota's level (lets just call it L0; I'll be inverting your numbering system for my post). Creators exist in L0, and do their thing. They can make up worlds, etc, and then pop up their fictitious characters (currently a conjecture; we dont know if this is unique to Sota). Things get screwy when we allow them to create creators in L1 or lower and then pop them to L0. That is a possible explanation for your question of LGB's arrogance. Creators' powers appear to be limited to generation in strictly lower levels, that is they cannot give themselves any further powers than they already have. Frankly, considering the ubiquity of fiction with characters having basically omnipotent powers (e.g. Fullmetal Alch, Naruto, etc.) its not like L1 creators should be rare.
At the moment we can assume creators can only create; they can't erase. Still, if you are, say an L0 creator or L1 creator popped to L0 you can by various unreliable means (finding and coercing the relevant L0 creator) cause events to happen that destroy things in L1.
Lets also not forget the system is more like a tree than it is like a linear ordering. Sota presumably cant create things in a universe he hasn't conceived.

The big clue is when we see that the fantasy magic of the in-story anime characters still works up in the 'real world' where the MC lives.  Not so real then.
Marid King dealt with this. There isn't currently a reason to believe that fantasy powers cease to function when popped up sufficiently many times. Well, currently.

One way to pop up a level is to 'die' in that level. This happened in the film Inception, where a person can wake up from a dream level by killing themselves in that level.
Maybe. But we know its not the only way to pop up; Souta popped up before he got stabbed. This thread might just be that girl's character arc.

Sometimes LGB acts like she is an entity that exists above level 2, and yet sometimes she acts like she came from level 1.  The evidence for the former is that LGB lifted up Meteora and Celestia herself (or so she claims), she seems to be invulnerable, she can de-rezz out of level 2 at will, and she is arrogant as all get out like Gilgamesh (complete with sword spamming). All this would seem to indicate that LGB is a powerful entity that exists above level 2.
Again, could be an L1 creator...

Assuming that Sota is unconsciously LGB's master, it offers an explanation of why LGB wants to punish the creators. It is because Sota wants to punish them himself (again unconsciously).  It might be because he doesn't have the creators' skill (in ep 1 he sat looking at a blank Illustrator page unable to draw anything), or perhaps his attempted manga submissions were cruelly rejected by potential publishers, or maybe his doujins suck and don't sell. We don't know yet. Whatever her motive it's tied to Sota.
I like this conjecture.

Well, all this is what I think constructs the most stable, smallest system possible with this ruleset. One could argue that the elements of the tree at level Ln perhaps aymptotically approach some finite number as n grows large, since all creation originates at the one reality at L0 and there are only so many situations which lead to an infinite subtree of the tree. Ok thats a bad argument. Nevermind it. Chief problem with my model is it offers no explanation for the suicide of the girl in the white dress.

In the post-ED scene, Meteora explained to Sota that all this might simply be his own hallucination - a Dorthy and the Wizard of Oz type situation. Like Dorothy, he might have bumped his head and this is all happening in a fevered dream. Meteora explained that there is no way for Sota to know for sure (she explicitly mentioned solipsism).
Goes back to the notion that we can't show that the system is well-founded, or more precisely, founded at Souta's level. I.e. Sota may be an L7 creator for all we know. But I think Meteora's comment is the biggest clue towards the possibility that there are higher levels than L0.
Note this novel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirts_(novel). Put briefly the premise of the novel is that the redshirts from Star Trek begin to conjecture that they are so short lived since they are redshirts in a badly written TV show from the late 60s, and that they make the stupid decisions that always get them killed because whenever the script intersects their daily lives they lose their free will. This is the best alternate explanation to the suicide I can offer: the girl isn't popping up; she is being puppeteered by someone in L-1.

EDIT: There might be another problem with the well-foundedness theory that plays on the difference between origin and causality; what happens if you are a creator and you create L-1. That is you imagine a universe where someone has control over the events in L0. Then is L-1 in L1 or is it its own level? This shows that an ordering by origin isnt necessarily an ordering in terms of power.

What is this show I dont even know anymore.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 09:07:58 PM by Pebble »

Offline AC

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Re:Creators
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2017, 05:58:41 AM »
1:

...why does Meteora summon bazookas that shoot missiles? Can't she just summon missiles?

Boring protagonist. Strong female lead. Archetype for a sidekick. Menacing villain. Sawano Hiroyuki cool music. Yeah, generic action show. Not expecting much, even if the director is Aoki Ei. Could end up being a Fate ZERO or an Aldnoah Zero.

Wait, what is it with Aoki and zeroes?

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2017, 10:46:09 AM »
[Mumbling to self.] Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck like...

[Watch ep 2.]

Squeeee!!!

[The cats dive for cover under the couch.]

2:

I love it.

In the OP we see Sota and his eyeglasses reflected in a handful of water that transition to the mousy girl falling in a sea of blue with her eyeglasses coming off. Is she somehow connected to Sota?  Whatever is going on, eyeglasses represent something important.

Meteora: "My world also had enough information to construct worlds. But all of the information in this world is multilayered. [She picks a flower and studies it.]  Even trivial pieces of information are so complex that they cannot be represented by a single number."

Exactly!  She gets it.

Spoiler for geekout on transfinity:
Meteora's statement - that her world can create subrealities and that her own world is one too - is a sign that we are indeed dealing with a situation that has nested realities with ever increasing complexity. Each system is a representative of a particular class of such systems with unknown cardinality.

If GCH is true (and I believe it is) then we have a hierarchy of classes of systems that can be well ordered by increasing cardinality (orders of complexity), such that each infinite class of systems is in a sense more 'complex', or rather more infinite (a higher Cantor cardinal), than the infinite classes of systems they happen to contain. Since they are well ordered (GCH implies no gaps) you can assign each cardinal a relative complexity indicator (a level number) that corresponds to it - not to any particular system but rather to the degree of complexity of that class of systems.

[Peb: You are right, I had goofed up the definition of cardinality upthread when I oversimplified it as isomorphic maps of sets rather than descriptions of orders of complexity for construction of Cantor transfinite sets (classes of systems of infinite sets).]

Then at 8:00,

Spoiler for Celestia and Meteora's speculation:
In wondering where LGB had come from, Celestia speculated that Sota's world (the current one) "might be part of the story made by someone else somewhere."  Meteora replied, "I do not disagree. Actually I think the possibility is high."   So here at episode 2 we find Celestia and Meteora already suspecting that there exists a reality above the current one where someone is creating a 'story' for their current world.

And so we have have no less than *four* nested realities mentioned in this one episode: 1) The subrealities in Meteora's world, 2) Meteora's world, 3) Sota's world (the current one), and 4) LGB's world (Celestia and Meteora's speculation). 

(And of course there is a fifth one: The world where Rei Hiroe and you and I live - but they have no way of knowing that [yet].)

We get more info about Sota.

Spoiler for motives of Sota and LGB:
We again are told that Sota hasn't created anything in a while. And he is too ashamed to show his old sketches. (One is apparently a catgirl.) This again indicates possible motives for LGB.

Poor Mamika. Actual damage? Injury? Blood? No wonder she doesn't like this world.

This just keeps getting more and more fun.

Edit: I am going to go out on a limb and take a wild guess here at ep 2:

Spoiler for wild guess about Sota's identity:
The OP hints at a deep connection between Sota and mousy girl. Wild guess: Mousy girl is the real Creator of Sota's world and she created LGB.  She also created Sota, whose purpose is to remember (record) everything as the narrator of her story. Recall that Sota's first words in ep 1 were that he was *not* the MC (he was only somebody 'like you or me') and he admitted that he was only a narrator of a 'story above all stories'.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 02:11:53 PM by HuuskerDu »
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Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2017, 04:38:39 PM »
2:

That was less exciting than episode one. We're getting very exposition and talk-heavy, which is unfortunately paired with some people yelling their lines Attack on Titan style.

I'm really hoping they don't go for lots of meta stuff, and  start showcasing a bunch of character archetypes just for the sake of inclusion. This show has the opportunity to have literally any kind of character, without it jarring with the setting. I hope they don't waste it by parading around the same old characters we've seen a thousand times. 
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2017, 05:38:14 PM »
I fail to see the point of the main character. Couldn't the light novel author have taken that position? He has more of a personal connection as a Creator after all.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2017, 07:58:55 PM »
@HuskerDu
Spoiler for abstract nonsense:
the definition of cardinality upthread when I oversimplified it as isomorphic maps of sets rather than descriptions of orders of complexity for construction of Cantor transfinite sets (classes of systems of infinite sets).
To be honest I dont really understand what this means. I have a feeling you're coming at this from a theoretical CS perpective that Im unfamiliar with.

If GCH is true (and I believe it is) then we have a hierarchy of classes of systems that can be well ordered by increasing cardinality (orders of complexity), such that each infinite class of systems is in a sense more 'complex', or rather more infinite (a higher Cantor cardinal), than the infinite classes of systems they happen to contain. Since they are well ordered (GCH implies no gaps) you can assign each cardinal a relative complexity indicator (a level number) that corresponds to it - not to any particular system but rather to the degree of complexity of that class of systems.

More pedantry: if there are levels for infinite cardinals they wont actually necessarily be well ordered by cardinality. If for example one level L is of cardinality alpha, and for each level at most α subworlds per world then the level above L (which is guaranteed to exist actually though it could be empty) has at most cardianlity alpha (thats a result in cardinal arithmetic that α*β=max{α, β}; this follows from α*α=α which you usually get by transfinite induction. I havent seen a proof that doesnt use Trans. Induction but I hear they are obnoxiously technical). That is to say if you have a cardinal bound on the number of derived worlds per world then you have the same cardinal bound for the cardinality of the entire system (aleph-0 if everything is finite; α if every world has at most α derived worlds).

A perhaps more intuitive explanation of why such systems could be far simpler than you might guess is the notion of strongly inacessible cardinals. Intuituively these are sets of such large cardinality that the usual operations of set theory, including powerset, just cant get you to sets that large. E.g the set of all natural numbers is not something you can obtain by pairings, products or powersets or unions of sets of strictly lower (i.e. finite) cardinality. I dont think anyone has proven the existence of larger inacessible cardinals (though Tarski did once suggest you should treat it as an axiom for funsies). In fact in some treatments of set theory you require the axioms of infinity and the replacement axiom schema to even be able to construct the natural numbers. That is to say that directly or indirecly we need a separate axiom just to force infinite cardinals to exist.
Anyway problems arise when you realize the set aleph-0 (natural numbers) is actually strongly inacessible.

My point is that we all believe in natural numbers but just the fact that L(n) exists for all natural numbers n doesnt actually imply that there is an L-infinity (or L(α) for any infinite cardinal). Your assertion that there are infinite levels or even levels with an infinite number of things is actually also a matter of faith. In fact GCH doesnt give you infinite cardinals either; it assumes infinite cardinals; though I suppose that means if youre willing to believe GCH you're willing to believe in infinite cardinals.

Again what I dont follow is why you think THIS system in particular has Levels corresponding to infinite ordinals/cardinals or even levels of with an infinite number of worlds, as opposed to the entire system being at most countable with levels of finite cardinality.

[Mumbling to self.] Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck
Wow that show relly traumatized you didnt it.

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2017, 09:13:22 PM »
Spoiler for transfinite blah blah:
Your assertion that there are infinite levels or even levels with an infinite number of things is actually also a matter of faith. In fact GCH doesnt give you infinite cardinals either; it assumes infinite cardinals; though I suppose that means if youre willing to believe GCH you're willing to believe in infinite cardinals.

You are right, GCH is unproven, so yes it is a matter of choosing to whether to assume it or not.  I had mentioned earlier that I was doing that.  Why?  Per Wikipedia:

Quote from: Wikipedia
Historically, mathematicians who favored a "rich" and "large" universe of sets were against CH, while those favoring a "neat" and "controllable" universe favored CH. Parallel arguments were made for and against the axiom of constructibility, which implies CH.

I am in the "neat and controllable" universe camp (for ontological reasons).   (Aside: It is really fascinating to me how the battle for proving/disproving CH among mathematicians seems to correlate to their ontological POV.)  Anyway, assuming GCH and AC gives you an easy way to construct a proof for the existence of an infinite stack of cardinals using Cantor's aleph hypothesis.

Again what I dont follow is why you think THIS system in particular has Levels corresponding to infinite ordinals/cardinals or even levels of with an infinite number of worlds, as opposed to the entire system being at most countable with levels of finite cardinality.

This is where we admittedly get into hand wave territory.  The problem is that we don't know enough about how these realities work in the context of the story.  All we know right now is that Meteora says that that Sota's world is somehow more 'complex' than her own. It is 'multilayered' (whatever that means) and 'cannot be represented by a single number'. The latter is a much more interesting and concrete statement that seems to indicate that Sota's world operates at a cardinal above |aleph-null| and maybe even above |aleph-1| (the continuum), depending on how she defines a 'single number' (integer or real).  Either way it shows that there is a concept of higher order complexity operating within the mechanics of the story.

Anyway, it is rather odd that LGB still doesn't have a name yet. This was mentioned specifically in ep 2.  'Gunpuku no Himegimi' translates as "princess in military uniform", which is only descriptive (and it was used that way in the sub). 

So why is LGB being so careful to hide her real name?  (The new boss guy also wondered aloud about revealing one's real name so cavalierly, as if it was tactically a foolish thing to do.)
 
I wonder if we have a True Names situation, where you if you learn your opponent's True Name you can defeat/control/uplift/downlift said opponent, sort of like how once a software app knows a file's name it can open a handle on it to move/copy/modify/delete it.

[Mumbling to self.] Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck like Plastic Memories. Please don't suck
Wow that show relly traumatized you didnt it.

Given that I'm suffering from early stage Alzheimer's the idea of transferring and preserving memories of the soon-to-be-departed is something I'm rather keen on, so yeah.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 09:28:35 PM by HuuskerDu »
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Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2017, 10:55:04 PM »
!

Jesus Christ
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Re:Creators
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2017, 06:03:33 AM »
2:

I swear, I thought I was re-watching Aldnoah:ZERO.

Interesting concept: fantasy characters come to life. This is nothing new, mind you, but what's new is that characters from different fantasy worlds are coming to life. That's interesting... like Toaru Majutsu no Index where magic and science come to one. This is where I start to worry: that show is bullshit. I hope this one isn't. The show has hinted that it tries to explain the whole laws of physics behind it, but I really hope it stops there.

I'm okay with what's happening so far. It's fun and the whole stylish treatment this show gets is doing good. So please, don't try to be smart. I prefer a show that is self-aware with its stupidity than one that is pretentious with intellect.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2017, 08:16:57 PM »
Remember your Valvrave!  Information is made up of physical particles!
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2017, 10:48:25 AM »
3:

In a dramatic scene, Sawano Hiroyuki's intensely kinetic background music swells up to AoT/Kabaneri level as Celestia dramatically unsheathes Enraiha and...
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2017, 07:59:11 PM »
3:

I really thought that'd work, but in retrospect they could immediately ascend to godmode. What if you made a character the new author, the they started changing their self?
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Re:Creators
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2017, 06:15:28 AM »
3:

I have a favorite and non-favorite character in this show.

My favorite is Mirokuji. He's a cross between a realist and a fatalist: on other hand, he logically arrives to correct conclusions about the collision of the worlds and just accepts whatever has transpired. On the other hand, he thinks it's useless to go against reality and nothing really matters. Of course, his character is the result of his creator's work and he doesn't see the point seeing him as God because he's not and he knows that (and he's right too). What does matter to him? Economic exchanges, allies, reciprocity... the usual themes of a shounen story featuring an anti-hero. His hypothesis that he was chosen because of the popularity of his world matters, is fascinating though. Is this actually the work of his creator, or Mirokuji's free will at responding to the new reality?

My least favorite? Meteora. I have nothing against her. She's made out to be the character archetype who is cool/calm/collected/analytical/whatever. There's always such a character in a fantasy story. But what I don't like is how she analyzes how the world works. That's our job as the audience. Why have a character who does the explaining for us... that's what ruined shows like Index. So far, it's just tackling issues of cause and effect, and it's so far so good. and I'm thankful for that.

Speaking of which, I want to do a Meteora and ask some questions worth thinking about. Will Selesia's character ultimately change after this whole experience since she's acting out on her own volition away from her creator's influence (she's not fighting with the creator simply because the creator created her to do so; it's clearly out of free will)? How would you react if someone knows your future: pretend not to hear it and let fate, or ask the creator to burn the new releases and rewrite the story?

I will clarify myself: I do NOT want this show to tackle the laws of physics and the science gumbo à la Index, but I do want to see it address causality topics.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2017, 11:49:02 AM »
4:

So Meteroa just outright explains the character arc she just underwent in a lengthy and often redundant dialogue scene. Riveting. She then goes on to explain the plot. Well at least all of this in character, right?

The second lengthy dialogue sequence was actually enjoyable since it was set a montage of enjoyable character moments.

How do you arrive at the conclusion "The person whom created her must exist somewhere in this world" when you literally yesterday discovered that your own creator is dead. Also I wonder if Meteora's Creator's "accident" was actually an accident. From what was shown regarding Princess' plan it most likely was just an accident so as to create some existential crisis for Meteora which differs from Selesia's.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2017, 03:57:46 PM »
4:

I was going to say what you just said. The resolution is uninteresting anyways, there's no need for Selesia and the rest to know about it; just show Meteora playing the game in the cafe, and zoom in on a satisfied look on her face. Leave the rest implied. That's all you have to do. "I was going to watch the world burn but now I'm OK" should be the entire character arc of a story, and definitely does not belong in a five minute conversation filled with exposition. You're really starting to let me down here, Re:Creators.

On the topic of the "Great Destruction", I have a better name for it. It's called bad writing. The idea is that too many contradictions, or things that don't make sense, will cause the world to collapse. But you don't need to bring characters from other worlds where different rules of reality apply; as a creator, you can just forget to follow your own rules, and BAM-the story sucks and no one reads it. Since in this anime, popularity is somehow important, that could very well lead to the 'end' of a universe. Amusingly, the implication would be that this anime will be about trying to not suck.

The second half was decent. Alicetaria is a character whose appearance was inevitable given the setting, but she fills her role well. What I'm hoping for is a character who fills the reverse role, of actually wanting to return. He would of course be a harem protagonist.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2017, 08:17:02 PM »
4
Sounds like Marvel 616 is going to collide with other Marvel universe. Or DC's Crsis.

I think the real 'God' is Souta. The characters appear because of his perception. Takashi Matsubara, Celestia's createtor, like he did not know who the Magical Girl or Mirokuji was, but Souta knows them. My feeling is that the Military Princess was Souta's past abandon LN project.

 

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2017, 04:27:35 AM »
4:

The ep was almost all padding and yak yak.  Saving budget for the upcoming battles?

Over on Reddit they are having fun matching the characters to the Fate/stay Servant classes:  UMP=Gilgamesh, Alicia=Saber, Detective=Archer, etc.   

I'm not sure why so many people are simply assuming that Sota's sister is dead.  Was that mentioned in-story somewhere?  We know that she is not Meteora's creator, who had ostensibly died in a motorcycle accident (and was an over-30 male).

The way that UMP had mentioned Setsuna in connection with Sota's full name seems to argue against them being siblings. (The name Setsuna [meaning 'moment in time'] is gender neutral BTW.)  UMP did admit that her master was fond of Sota.  We know that some characters (Celestia) have two creators (writer and artist).  So maybe UMP might have two as well?  Maybe Setsuna is indeed Sota's sister and she really did die, and she and Sota had jointly created UMP and now he's blacking it out?  If so, why suicide?  And why the hate-on for the other creators? 

It would be funny if Rui (from 'Infinite Divine Machine Mono Magia') acts like Ichika from Infinite Stratos and simply assumes that all the girls will automatically become part of his harem.
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Re:Creators
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2017, 06:27:19 AM »
4:

Not sure if anyone noticed, but didn't it sound morbid when Matsubara said that "these things" happen when one reaches 30? And what are "these things" supposed to mean? Death? Is this the norm, or that it's normal enough to the point of disappointment instead of shock? This is probably a social commentary on the anime/manga industry... or death from overwork in the country.

My opinions of Meteora has changed: I like her more now. She has addressed an important issue, perhaps the most one in this show: how a Creation responds to a Creator. Although she doesn't get to meet her Creator, after playing her own game, she understands what kind of person he was and is thankful. But here's the conundrum: is she thankful because of her free-willed interpretation of her world after coming to the current one, or simply because the Creator created her that way? If it's the former, then Creators aren't omnipotent: the Creations can really act on their own without their Creators' influence.

This episode also showed how the Creations' personalities are formed according to their worlds, or maybe perhaps how the Creations interpreted their own worlds. Meteora is thankful for her world, and we can presume that it was quite a good one (we can't confirm for sure). Alicetaria, on the other hand, well her world's terrible. Her loyalty to her world is so strong that she would work with Military Girl who is bent on causing chaos in order to gain full control of the current world. In other words, save her world even if it destroys the current one.

This is all intriguing stuff, except for Mahou Shoujo Girl. Her naive magical girl archetype is just dull, unless she breaks out of it one way or another.

Offline Gadget

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Re:Creators
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2017, 12:34:38 PM »
1:

...why does Meteora summon bazookas that shoot missiles? Can't she just summon missiles?



5
It got answered. I really hope Shinji from NGE will come back and hunt  Hideaki Anno after raping our brains.

Beside the GATE - like special force assault (like 15 s),  it's another talkie.

Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2017, 12:54:30 PM »
5:

And the talking continues.

Hang on, was the dude from Selesia's story her boyfriend? Or is she actually interested in the androgynous pilot person?
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2017, 01:05:22 PM »


Hang on, was the dude from Selesia's story her boyfriend? Or is she actually interested in the androgynous pilot person?

He got bigger........then the  other guy.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2017, 02:27:17 PM »
5:

While it is nice to see government involvement it doesn't seem as though they will ultimately contribute much. This whole episode was nothing. Just Meteora, yet again, espousing her "theory" and everyone just eating it up. All the character actually turn to Meteora and just wait for her provide them with information and goals. This may as well be a recap episode - 4.5

I did enjoy how new Creator was lamenting how bipolar and shit his character is. It would be cool to see a character you created interact and observe how "real" they truly are.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 02:35:46 PM by Zeitgeist »

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2017, 04:05:37 PM »
5:

Yak yak yak. More closeups on eyewear. The ministry gal's lenses were noticeably flat (fake)?

I love how the mecha pilot was a total shonen spaz.

Post ED: So Sota did black it all out. (Eyeglasses helped trigger his memory.) He narrated her last name, not first. Not his sister then?
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2017, 10:15:51 PM »
....wait a minute. They mentioned that the imagination of the creators will be key this episode. They're going to RE-create the military princess' world and call themselves RE-creators, aren't they?
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Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2017, 02:14:44 AM »
Joking aside, re-creation is definitely one of the themes:  Why does UMP want to trash everything and start over? (Her OP starts with skulls behind her then quickly switches to roses as she smiles.)  Why is she upset that her creator was 'banished'?  (Banished, not suicide?)

One of the things that I had really enjoyed about Zeutsen no Tempest was how the characters became so fully realized that they took over the show, almost as if they had wrested control away from the writers.  The Final Boss guy strikes me as that kind of character here, that he is gonna go off and do his own thing and the heck with anybody's expectations of him.

Some of the wild mass guessing on TVTropes is pretty interesting.  I like one theory especially...

Spoiler for WMG:
The MS theory, as it ties in to UMP's seeming omnipotence, gives her a strong motive to want to end all the other stories, explains her weird 'banish' comment (she is referring to her mousy alter ego now banished in her own head), and the importance of the eyeglasses (without them she transforms like Clark Kent into Superman).

And it explains Sota's prologue why he's not actually the MC.  Mary Sue is *always* the MC, dang it!
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Re:Creators
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2017, 04:57:46 AM »
Hmm, Ho**ibleSubs hasn't subbed the latest episode...  :-\

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Re:Creators
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2017, 02:28:24 PM »
With NyaaTorrents and BakaBT both going down, they're probably trying to find a different method to get things up and available.  I think a lot of subbers are.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2017, 03:27:49 PM »
So that explains why Sota allegedly has a sister (that we have never seen), and why UMP's real name is supposed to be Sword (or Saber), and why nobody can agree on how to spell Celestia's name consistently...

Then again Amazon's half hearted closed captions aren't that stellar either.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2017, 03:49:29 PM »
HorribleSubs released it according to their website, and I've picked up their releases post-Nyaa crash, so...
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Re:Creators
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2017, 09:34:12 PM »
Nyaa didn't crash.  Nyaa is dead.  The owner closed it down rather than face punishment by European copywright laws.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2017, 05:48:54 AM »
There's always IRC.  Though I imagine lists of the magnet links will be available pretty quickly through other means.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2017, 06:24:59 AM »
5:

That has got to be the easiest governmental intervention of all time. I'm speecheless at how accommodating the government was with them this whole time. No sense of hesitation, doubt, suspicion, prudence, due diligence... whatever. The government has always been a prick at becoming the main obstacle to superheroes. They thought Superman was a threat to humanity. They thought Mutants were too. Same for Tony Stark.

Here? They grant VIP treatment and pardon for grand larceny of multi-million dollar military equipment.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2017, 08:05:42 AM »
Post GATE Japan. For for detail how such goverment funtion, go watch Seikaisuru Kado. It's a fantasy government.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2017, 04:47:41 PM »
More like in Zeutsen where the govt secretly worked with them but was useless (and knew it).
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 06:30:44 PM by HuuskerDu »
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2017, 09:16:50 AM »
6:

So let's see... Lawful Stupid meets Chaotic Evil but before they fight they get interrupted by Lawful Good who then gets smacked down by True Neutral who then gets blocked by Stupid Good.

At least we got some action finally. 

I had started an analysis of the Altair Etude reveal from last ep's post-ED, took screenshots, started translating etc, but then I found this article did it all already (speculative spoilers).

We again are told that Sota hasn't created anything in a while. And he is too ashamed to show his old sketches. (One is apparently a catgirl.)

Not a catgirl - actually it was Altair's pigtails.  That was a nice misdirect.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 10:06:15 AM by HuuskerDu »
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2017, 03:11:48 PM »
6:

Ugh.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2017, 07:29:11 PM »
6:

The colorful psycho villain is somehow predictable and boring. I legitimately found the magical girl more intimidating this episode. For me, it's almost as bad as the Tsundere archetype; writers just slap them together by the numbers, which might work when I'm trying to get my trashy romcom fix, but how do you expect to unsettle someone with rote nonsense they're seen a thousand times? The shock value of a bloody murder that you pan the camera away from? This show would be strictly better off if psycho schoolgirl didn't exist, and the villainy was left to Gun Man, Alicetaria, and Uniform Princess. 

Mr. MC is also doing his best to push one of my buttons. He'd better have a really, really sensible and important reason not to tell everyone what he knows. If he says anything resembling, "I can't stand to see my sister's memory tarnished", I'm out.
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Re:Creators
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2017, 06:18:43 AM »
6:

A psychotic villain character... well, it's only bound to happen. In a world filled with tropes (quite literally in this case), this trope's arrival is only a matter of time.

The important question here is this: if you put any character out of his native world, then how would he respond? Clearly, Alisteria's behavior is influenced by her world and the same goes for every Creation. But would a character like her exist in Mamika's world? It would be strange for us to see something like that even exists contextually, and that's the RL lesson we see here: our environment influences our characters, and we influence our environments. That's socio-psychology lesson 101 there.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2017, 09:28:00 PM »
7:

I like how the Creations are adapting and growing as persons, especially Mamika in this ep.

Sota drew Altair based on Setsuna's description.   Altair is Setsuna's avatar (not Sota's), and she hated the world she was living in.

Spoiler for update on UMP prediction:

Quote
The MS theory, as it ties in to UMP's seeming omnipotence, gives her a strong motive to want to end all the other stories, explains her weird 'banish' comment (she is referring to her mousy alter ego now banished in her own head), and the importance of the eyeglasses (without them she transforms like Clark Kent into Superman).

I'm putting the odds on Altair = Setsuna's MS self-insert at 3-2 now.

The odds on the eyeglasses are 1-3.  It depends on whether Altair is literally Setsuna or merely a reflection of her.  (I looked at her train dive frame-by-frame in ep 1 -- she is just a dot in front of the train in a single frame so it is impossible to tell if she transformed into Altair at that moment.)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 09:38:31 PM by HuuskerDu »
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2017, 09:59:23 PM »
7
ufoTable open a cafe? They just insert their own product advertisement. Nice to see Magical Girl is no as stupid as she is. Now the stupid person is the Mecha boy.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2017, 10:05:44 PM »
7:

No seriously, Re:Creators. Stop right where you are. If Souta pulls the "I want to project the memory of my sister" bullsh!t as his excuse for not telling everyone about Altair immediately, I'm going to drop this and rewatch episode of Ero-manga sensei instead.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2017, 10:17:53 PM »
Well, he did just fess up to Mamika.

I dont know why everybody assumes Setsuna is his sister.  He spoke her last name in his narration in 5, and in the flashbacks he collborated with her online (not in person).

Granted, Sota is oddly passive even by harem lead standards. Because of that, and his declaring himself "the narrator' in 1, it wouldn't suprise me if he was a creation in Setsuna's head too - the St. Elsewhere snow globe theory - per Meteora's warning about solipsism right at the start.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 12:04:30 AM by HuuskerDu »
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2017, 01:41:52 AM »
He was about to. He started with "She's my-" and then changed it. Hence my ire.
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Re:Creators
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2017, 06:11:28 AM »
7:



Brotherhood is a beautiful thing.

Mirokuji basically summed up what I already assumed back in episode 4. Creations can and are being free agents who are acting out on her own free will, and the Creations are not omnipotent. Case in point: Mamika. In her comics, she doesn't have to come in between fighting between two people whom she doesn't antagonize. In this world, she does because she believes she has to. That is something her Creator didn't do: it's something the Creation decided for herself.

Is the name of that café an easter egg...?

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2017, 12:38:43 PM »
8:

Holy buckets.  Mamika is the wisest of all the Creations.

So, Altair was only a proxy? That is a bit disappointing as we won't get (what I thought would be) a nice future reveal.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2017, 03:57:59 PM »
8:

Why in hell did Souta tell Mamika everything, then pussy out of telling Meteora the same stuff? Apparently Setsuna is dead, so what possible benefit is there to not revealing that the group's search for her is pointless? Is he just stammering over himself because it's a trope? I don't understand what's going on.

We're headed into the endgame of the show, and so far the only creation that's had any significant development is Mamika, and Meteora off-screen. Everyone else has just sorta of sat around for 8 episodes. The horrid pacing has drained this show of life; we'll see how much the conclusion can redeem things.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2017, 04:58:50 PM »
Oh I agree.  The guy is a total pussy and he's totally inexplicable.  So I'm going to assume something deeper is going on here (or so I hope),
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 05:08:13 PM by HuuskerDu »
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2017, 01:15:28 AM »
I forgot to mention, the most interesting creation is now presumed dead. For once I'm kinda hoping for a deus ex machina to save her. Please Mamika, don't leave me alone with Mr. Sunglasses, Mecha Brat, and Evil Highschool Lady! I neeeeed youuuuuuuuuu
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Re:Creators
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2017, 06:28:17 AM »
8:

To be honest, almost every character in this show is a trope. Souta is definitely no exception, but seeing a trope like him amidst other tropes make him less tolerable. The common thing among all characters is that they all have a clear agenda on what they set out to do. Except for Souta, whose actions contradict his agenda, whatever that may be.

I'm glad Chikujouin saw right through him. Someone like Souta is just fodder for someone as sadistic yet clear-minded as her.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2017, 01:26:28 AM »

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2017, 04:54:00 AM »
8
Souta better have a good reason for being a wuss. I bet it's going to be something lame and tear jerk.

Actually, when Meteora smile, she's actually cute. She's a better female MC then the hyperactive Selesia.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2017, 06:21:40 AM »
Altair had said some odd things about Setsuna in 8. She isn't even a first level Creation (she's only second level), but the way she talked about Setsuna made her sound more like a Creation than a Creator as well.

Altair's primal rant about Setsuna, combined with the fact that we learned that Setsuna's name is probably a pseudonym, has me wondering if Sota, Setsuna, and Altair are simply different aspects of the same mind in the Jungian sense: the superego, the ego, and the id.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2017, 07:13:44 AM »
If that's true, no wonder evil psycho school girl click with him more than the other good guys.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2017, 06:36:04 PM »
The lyrics to gravityWall start to make sense if you assume that the song is actually about...

Spoiler for interpretation of song:
... a frustrated author with progressive disassociative personality disorder who is breaking free.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2017, 09:39:57 AM »
9
RIP Magical Girl. You are actually a sweet girl. You just join the wrong faction and have an idiot (Knight Lady) for a friend.

Talk again. And more talk.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2017, 11:12:39 PM »
9:

Holy hell, not only are they still standing around talking, but instead of making progress, they're introducing misunderstandings, which are reliant on Alice somehow getting fooled by Magane.   

Wild tangent, I feel like too much Japanese media is written by horrendously socially awkward people who view normal conversation as some kind of impossible tightrope walk. This works in a show where that's the point, like Watamote, and breaks immersion everywhere else. If you can't make your characters speak to each other competently, just make a Shounen battle manga where they don't have to. Or a sports manga. Or hentai.

EDIT: AND STAY THE F!CK AWAY FROM ROMANCE AND SHOUJO
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #70 on: June 04, 2017, 05:39:21 AM »
9:

So the most interesting and best developed character on the show gets killed off early (and Mamika is really dead - the cast gave her seiyuu a farewell party) and gets replaced by the flattest and least interesting character on the show (Final Boss guy even lampshades her as 'a bag of skin'), who then fools Alicesteria in the stupidest and most clichéd way possible.

Meanwhile, Sota keeps driving the fans up the wall with his absolute pathetic-ness.  Then the friendly and personable boob-windowed Celestia gets replaced by the monkish/boyish Meteora as the main harem lead.

Ladies and gentleman we are being trolled, big time.

Hey, Mari Okada, is that you?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 06:43:26 AM by HuuskerDu »
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Re:Creators
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2017, 06:04:21 AM »
9:

It's amazing to see how Magane basically owned this episode.

The setup is simple: knight versus knave. Aliceteria was fooled not once but twice.  "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" personified, I guess. It also probably says something about her world: there aren't characters who lie freely in her world. But the biggest issue is how Aliceteria hasn't developed beyond her native character even after stepping into this world, something even Mamika has achieved. She's actually the most tragic character in this show... she's our Lancer.

Sota? Urgh, I actually love seeing how Magane savage tore through his, well, contradictions. Not even sure what he adds to this show, really.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2017, 05:42:02 PM »
10:

They really blew the animation budget on this ep.

Yes, the story is the thing.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2017, 11:15:10 PM »
10:

This is what I came for, I guess.

Alicetaria is such an incompetent judge of character, she's basically a Trump supporter.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2017, 11:54:28 PM »
10:

This is what I came for, I guess.

Alicetaria is such an incompetent judge of character, she's basically a Trump supporter.

She's a lady. She's a feminist and a war supporter, A Neo Con. She's Hilary supporter. Alice will amputate Trump hands if moves he move near her butt. ;)

10.
Is Meteora that weak? It seems that everyone wanted to be skewered by Alice. Glad Sota step up. He better cough the truth.

Selesia transformation is like the Shaman King final fight. Instead of powered by prayers  and wishes of the people, Selesia, or the people from the created worlds, relies on 'hits' and 'likes' for their power. But why Selesia new powers are temporary? Sales power and profit is permanent while Twitter, Facebook and Instagram are fleeting.

Which means one cannot reduce the powers of the characters from the created world, but they can generate a temporary boost.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2017, 12:16:20 AM »
10:

The problem with this episode is how the whole thing only happened as a result of Alice throwing a tard fit that's just too bafflingly dumb for me to wrap my head around.

>"You killed Mamika, that murderous liar told me so!"
>"Dude, she's a liar, why would you-"
>"SOPHISTRY!"
You could say that she couldn't think clearly because her girlfriend was just murdered but I doubt she learned anything from all this since she still sides with Chuunihime.

As fun as Magane is to watch, it's rather frustrating to see how stupidly the reactions towards her have been. As if Alice trusting her wasn't enough, Yuuya kept up his trash talking ways when he knows exactly what her ability entails and lost his Persona as a result. Magane should've been the easiest foe to deal with before since she has no offensive capabilities if she you don't respond to her bullshit with words (as opposed to say, flashy beam attacks and swords). Now she's even more of threat since her ability to cause harm isn't solely reactionary with Yuya's persona at her side.

And let's not even get started on that twitter nonsense. You'll need to wait more then 10 seconds to get thousands of retweets and a news article on something you slap on your timeline. And what the hell happened to revisions not working? Why would Matsubara be so sure that it would work when it hasn't before?

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2017, 01:17:30 AM »
I completely forgive Yuuya losing his persona, because I don't understand Magane's powers one bit.

Also, I just found out that that this is 22 friggen episodes long, not 13. I don't think I can handle much more talking, but what's left for the heroes to do? How in hell does this show keep going for more than double it's current run time?   
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Re:Creators
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2017, 06:00:25 AM »
10:

Here's something I've been meaning to ask: what about if everyone, especially the Creations, read each other's works? Like Selesia reading Magane's work or something, instead of Souta (and perhaps Meteora) being the only one(s) who understand each other's strengths and weaknesses?

So yes indeed, Aliceteria is the most tragic character here. She's not even sugarcoating it anymore, by saying she doesn't know what's true anymore. I just want to know more about the stories of the other Creations, especially Talker and Mirokuji.

And yes, Souta, please grow a pair. Being aware that you're useless is the first step, so congrats.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2017, 01:24:24 PM »
Quote from: Gadget
She's a lady. She's a feminist and a war supporter, A Neo Con. She's Hilary supporter. Alice will amputate Trump hands if moves he move near her butt.

I... don't think you know what a Neo Con is.
I'm just like you, only smarter™.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2017, 01:40:35 PM »
Im sure back in the 1960s there was a good feeling for why exactly neoconservatives were called neoconservatives. But if you take the stereotype of the white man in a suit who hates hippies and commies, believes in social security, loves unanimous US intervention and the Israeli right wingers, then...

... well it kind of sounds like half the US politicians today. American foreign policy has been pretty uniformly interventionist since the Bush days *shudder* and probably the entire GOP is pro-Nethanyu. Since the 60s counterculture movements aren't really a thing anymore I'd say the only good defining trait of neoconservatism is gone and the term is thoroughly useless.
And you cant say The Donald isn't interventionist, because you cant say he is anti-intervention, since the man's stance is about as coherent as anything the speshul-needs wanker has ever said in his life.

I've just mentioned, Bush, The Donald, and Nethanyu in the space of maybe 100 words. I need to go vent.
*stomps off in a hissy fit of rage

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2017, 03:35:32 PM »
Please no politics?   

There is an interesting Japanese website called Re:CREATORS Naked that has a lot of good info (https://www.sunday-webry.com/events/re_creators_naked/). It features a diary entry written by one of the Creations each calendar day.  It also features per-episode interviews with the main writer, Rei Hiroe (https://www.sunday-webry.com/events/re_creators_naked/interview01/), where he discusses the events in each episode and how his thought process went as he wrote the ep. It includes how the animation staff contributed in fleshing out the story - for example Hiroe doesn't do mecha so the animators designed Rui's Gigas Makina and storyboarded all of his battle scenes themselves.  They also suggested adding the flaming sword scene in 10 as a nod to 3, which Hiroe happily added.  It's nice when a writer collaborates with his animators like that.

Hiroe's interviews ramble a lot ('Wow, good pizza!') and Google Translate didn't help, but I did glean a few things of interest.   The interviews have a spoiler tag but I didn't see anything particularly spoilerly in them.

Spoiler for Hiroe per-ep interviews:
He frets that some of the Creations are overpowered, particularly Rui (who had to be kept occupied with his doppelganger in 10).  He explained that all of the Creations have some basic traits from their stories that carry over (e.g., Yuu has a bad habit of talking/taunting his opponents too much [which Magane exploited], Aliceteria is a blood knight who refuses to listen, etc).  They literally can't help it. It's who they are.   

The idea that the fans empower the Creations is a big part of the story (hinted in 3, confirmed in 10), where the Creations, Creators, and the fans work together as a threesome to define each Creation's powers and motivations.

Hiroe drew a lot of contrasts to his Black Lagoon (e.g., Rokuro quite different than Sota).  He cheerfully admitted that in the first cour Sota was deliberately written to be a timid douche for important but unspecified reasons.  He said that he is revising a lot, and that when he wrote the whole manuscript and then read it again he found that several things jumped out that needed to be added/changed.  He also admitted that sometimes he just wings it.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2017, 08:12:09 PM »
I completely forgive Yuuya losing his persona, because I don't understand Magane's powers one bit.
Basically if you call out a lie she tells as a lie, then reality will shift to make it real. Magane claimed she would be able to put Hangaku to better use and Yuuya scoffed at the idea.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2017, 09:13:58 PM »
Did you notice how if Magane repeats herself once she is speaking the truth and if she does not repeat (or repeats twice) it's false?  Her C++ truth function is probably something like

 bool MaganeTruth(int n) { return (n > 0 && n % 2 == 0); }

where n is the number of times she says it. It applies to factual statements only. The rule seemed consistent in ep 9 when she was spoofing Aliceteria. (I didn't bother checking if the writers kept the rule consistent elsewhere, e.g., when she was messing with Sota.)

Or maybe it's just an inversion function, since when she says something once and another person negates it, it becomes true.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 09:45:46 PM by HuuskerDu »
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2017, 01:41:52 AM »
Basically if you call out a lie she tells as a lie, then reality will shift to make it real. Magane claimed she would be able to put Hangaku to better use and Yuuya scoffed at the idea.

I...see? So Yuuya and everyone else should just go silent, unless Magane accidentally lies about something that would screw her over if it became true?
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2017, 10:00:50 PM »
It is all just so uninteresting and boring. How does a show get away with all this bullshit? I genuinely don't understand...and there are still 12-odd episodes. My God

Fun Fact: Th only entity I vaguely care for is Alicetaris.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2017, 10:15:40 PM »
According to Re:Creator's wiki page (didn't know someone made this already):

Quote
Infinite Deception of Words: an ability allows her to bend reality through lies and deception; by telling a lie and manipulating somebody into rejecting that claim it creates a "lie of a lie" which by proxy makes the initial claim become real.

So simply put, suppose she makes a lie and the listener rejects it (i.e. also proposes a lie), then it becomes the truth. So yeah, negative + negative = positive in Boolean algebra. When she said she can put Hangaku to better use, it was a lie. But Mirokuji rejected it, hence Hangaku was handed over to her.

Those with insecurities and self-denial issues will have a bad time with her, and this includes defensive mecha rider Kanoya. Someone who isn't afraid to face the true or can see through her lies can face her. At this point, seems like only Selesia or Meteora stands a chance against her.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #86 on: June 13, 2017, 07:52:16 AM »
Fun Fact: Th only entity I vaguely care for is Alicetaris.
Alicetaria is the dumbest of them all tbh

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2017, 02:40:31 AM »
11
The revelation is not as bad as I thought it would be. Sota problem was he did not support her as a friend, but has a secret joy when she was flamed. Was it that bad to the point he did not tell anybody while the world burns? And he was willing to tell an 'enemy', Mamika while he did not even tell anyone from his side.

As the creations was born out of 'likes', Altair was born out of 'dislikes'? Either way, many fans will have read or seen what was put up on the net.

Takashi Matsubara starts to fall in love with his creation, Selesia ? She's is hot and sassy. And Sota seems to be closer to Meteora.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2017, 06:50:09 AM »
12:

To be honest, I couldn't care less about Souta's problems with Setsuna. His claim of killing her is probably exaggeration coupled with guilt, as a result of inaction and envy. Perhaps the next episode will explain the moments before Setsuna killed herself.

But what interested me more was the talk between Kanoya and Souta. Kanoya is the typical simplistic protagonist who hates being told what to do and is concerned with the simple things in life. Yes, he's simple because that's the kind of protagonist you get for his kind of story. But his conversation with Souta is something his creator didn't create; it's his volition speaking especially after coming to this world. His Creator certainly didn't put "You ought to be happy despite being fated to save the world and you can do nothing about it" into his character description. Yet, he takes the revelation positively and even admire Creators because they can make their own destinies. As simple as it is, that's an incredible character development.

And seems like they are reading each other's works. Guess they just have to do their homework better.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2017, 05:06:42 PM »
11:

So Sota and Shimazaki had met in real life.  That shoots down several theories.

We were given an innocent explanation for the tight focus on their eyeglasses in the OP.

"I.. um.. I'm Yuna Shimazaki.  Sota... Is that your real name?" Given the odd pauses she still might not be revealing her real surname (also suggested in 9), or it could just be Setsuna -> Yuna.   (Either way it does seem to shoot down the theory that she is his sister.)

Sota asserted to the others that there was no proof of Shimazaki's artistic plagiarism (tracing another artist's illustrations). But it ought to be easy to prove/disprove, shouldn't it?   Like with NGNL's Yuu Kamiya where all they had to do was present the real and traced illustrations side-by-side and you could see it for yourself?

The only anger seems to be coming from Sota, not Shimazaki.

A whole lotta theories were tanked in this ep, but I still can't shake the feeling that the show is messing with us somehow.
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Re:Creators
« Reply #90 on: June 25, 2017, 05:35:20 AM »
12:

So yeah, I saw Souta's story from a mile away. Whatever. And Meteora's theory that making new powers permanent is the way to go? Saw that coming too.

But here's the thing. Why is Altair the only one who can gain powers from fanfic? Is it because Setsuna created her originally that way, with this power dubbed 'Feedback'? What does that even mean in the canon? I assume Altair's very bitter because she embodies Setsuna's hate towards the world.

In fact, if fanfic influences her powers, what about those unrated doujinshi? Those erotic ones--, you know what, forget it. Let's not go there.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2017, 09:53:52 AM »
13
It's recap. But this is the best recap. It's told from Meteora point of view. And she got the power to break the forth wall. Like how she wanted us to see her as a powerful, sexy, big breasted mage. Oops wrong, hit the rewind button.

Meteora's opinion for some of the character are expressed. I think she's jealous of Selesia, like she fun, sociable,  pack offensive weapons, and (maybe) got bigger boobs. I lost track of the time she call Alicetelia muscle with no brains. Mirokuji is a delinquent youth that hangs outside of drug store. And her hate rant of Altair is pretty.....practical?

The best part was how she tried to justify a mid recap. Like if no recap, the producer and director would be a shriveled mummies.

Recap will not contribute the the story, but is was fun as Meteora tries to be funny. In many ways, she;s the most interesting of the good guys. And have more wifu potential than Selesia.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2017, 05:48:12 AM »
13:

Couldn't care less about a recap episode, regardless of who's narrating it.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2017, 08:45:21 AM »
1-13. Just a note here... Been following this one since the beginning and... im just really having a love/hate relationship with it in a sense... But it's more like not sure if do i like it or not. I hoped for a lot when i heard it's written by Rei Hiroe. (Also why you writing this when Black Lagoon needs you. Finnish it? Continue it? Please just don't let it just hang in the manga limbo)


There is a lot more talking than i expected... especially cause it's Rei Hiroe i would've thought he would tone it down the exposition and gear up the ACTION TO 100000. (Like with Black Lagoon? (Sorry i just really like Black Lagoon)) And the action is good but... Has it been like 3 fights the whole show.... I dunnoo                 


Oh yeah i also don't care about recaps.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #94 on: July 06, 2017, 06:44:30 AM »
Since my net's been out for a week I haven't caught up with everything yet, but I really needed to vent.....WTF Mamika? You've been around Alice, a paladin of the lawfullest, awfullest kind, long enough to know that she's so thick that rocks brag about how much smarter they are than her. Then you gave her the vaguest of instructions about your intentions and expect her to come up with an answer that's even in the same post code? GAH! And of course it's Magane who finds Mamika.....

It doesn't help that I really don't like Magane. I'm not a big fan of that kind of character archetype anyway, but Magane just gets right up my nose. I'm guessing her musings are supposed to be funny, but she's no Joker.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #95 on: July 09, 2017, 05:37:27 AM »
AC said: "In fact, if fanfic influences her powers, what about those unrated doujinshi? Those erotic ones--, you know what, forget it. Let's not go there"

Totally agreed. It is impossible not to garner a widely approved doujin and not affect their powers in one way or another. I find this an inconsistency with the logic of the show.

1-14:

I love the show for bringing a novel idea on the table but I loathe how this was butchered err... executed. This is anime, I should have played a visual novel instead if I am going to sit in a 30 minute show that does nothing but talk.

PS: Matsubara is the man though.
I am not sure if good animes are getting fewer these days or my taste has gone numb because most of what I watch recently look the same.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #96 on: July 10, 2017, 06:12:46 AM »
14:

New OP. Bleh, I prefer the first one.

It's very ironic to hear Matsubara telling Souta that they're not playing around, because that's what it really looks like to me. Rather than a nation-wide effort to fight Altair and save the world by constructing a coherent and ACCEPTABLE (magic word here!) Marvel-like universe, it feels more like a group of high school kids trying to get their first manga published. Worse, it's a group featuring an individual like Marine reflecting about herslef which I don't care one bit, and a tsundere. Seriously?

This feels like the most un-urgent attempt at saving the world from destruction, ever.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 07:05:02 AM by AC »

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #97 on: July 15, 2017, 12:25:26 PM »
15:

AND THE FULL POTENTIAL OF THIS SERIES IS FINALLY REALIZED

HOW DID I NOT THINK OF THIS BEFORE ITS GENIUS

WHEN IN DOUBT BREAK OUT THE HENTAI
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Re:Creators
« Reply #98 on: July 17, 2017, 06:25:03 AM »
15:

So an eroge character makes her debut. That's the only logical thing to happen, so I can't complain although I wonder what her significance as a character is in this kind of show. Can't underestimate the popularity of eroges, though.

Meteora has found a convenient solution to understanding how to predict the physical law of 'acceptance'. See, I'm not a fan of that because it ascertains the theoretically un-ascertainable. It's like a scientist suddenly has a device that can tell him how exactly a butterfly's flap directly causes a tornado. Where's the beauty in that? Scientists have been wracking their heads over this whole problem of induction and cause-and-effects, and here Meteora suddenly has a Eureka moment just like that?

And better yet, Altair also has a solution that enables her to see what others are doing. SPECTACULAR! Now she's a god who can just do everything. It's just not fun when impossible things are made possible, because there are no constraints (i.e. creativity) anymore.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #99 on: July 17, 2017, 09:53:53 AM »
Meteora has found a convenient solution to understanding how to predict the physical law of 'acceptance'. See, I'm not a fan of that because it ascertains the theoretically un-ascertainable. It's like a scientist suddenly has a device that can tell him how exactly a butterfly's flap directly causes a tornado. Where's the beauty in that? Scientists have been wracking their heads over this whole problem of induction and cause-and-effects, and here Meteora suddenly has a Eureka moment just like that?

And better yet, Altair also has a solution that enables her to see what others are doing. SPECTACULAR! Now she's a god who can just do everything. It's just not fun when impossible things are made possible, because there are no constraints (i.e. creativity) anymore.

It's lazy writing.   Hiroe also admitted in a recent interview that he's winging it now.
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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #100 on: July 23, 2017, 07:17:16 AM »
I do hope Altair is talking shit when she says she's all-seeing and all-knowing and all-powerful. As a rule, I dislike invincible enemies, they are very hard to do correctly and much of what I've seen of them fail (Aldnoah Zero comes to mind). I find that there are no stakes with invincible enemies, thus nothing to get me invested because they have to rely on plot conveniences to defeat them. If the event fails, I hope it's not because Altair knew exactly how to defeat it.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #101 on: August 03, 2017, 05:50:32 AM »
16:

What a damn waste of time the first-half of the episode turned out to be.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #102 on: August 18, 2017, 06:45:32 AM »
17

I liked the stuff with Blitz and his creator (I forget her name), that was interesting. They are gods of those worlds after all, though I wonder what they wrote into the event to bring his daughter back.

But yeah, Altair knew everything all along. She doesn't have to think, or even damn well try, her sword shield thing is good against anything. Something stupid will have to happen in order to defeat her, like the ghost of her creator telling Altair that this isn't what she wanted and the power of love bringing a change of heart to her. She's just not interesting, and thus, I don't care. Maybe if she got her powers from fan fiction, she would also get some weaknesses as well, like give her Anatidaephobia or something. So they have to get creative with her weaknesses, and Altair in turn has to be creative to cover for them. Make her interesting, so they don't have to torture the plot to defeat her.

Unless they are going to destroy the world, cause they've written themselves into a corner with Altair's powers......

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Re:Creators
« Reply #103 on: August 18, 2017, 07:11:04 AM »
That's the problem with omnipotent and/or perfect characters: they're boring. They can do no wrong, or there isn't anything they can't do, so what's so interesting about them. It's only when characters have flaws and restraints (and how they overcome them) that they become something worth giving a shit.

Same goes to Blitz Talker: father figure adopting a fatalist view of the world due to his circumstances. It makes me wonder yet again: why does Altair bear so much hatred for the real world? We still have no clue what kind of world Altair was in back in her own world (it's never been discussed, actually). So in fact, I can't even understand why Altair cares so much about Setsuna's (i.e. God)'s death, since the show never explained why anyway.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #104 on: August 20, 2017, 01:26:10 AM »
That's the problem with omnipotent and/or perfect characters: they're boring. They can do no wrong, or there isn't anything they can't do, so what's so interesting about them. It's only when characters have flaws and restraints (and how they overcome them) that they become something worth giving a shit.

Isekai Wa Smartphone is a good example of boring stuff. Superman and Batman were the perfect alpha male. When upstart comic company start writing about a bickering family and friend (Fantastic Four) and a trouble teen (Spider-man), Marvel became as large as DC.

18
And it all goes back to cliques. Yuuya and Sho became some rom-com bickering. Dating girl Hoshikawa can BECOME anything the fans want her to be. So she could be the most powerful person in the group, if the fan allows, like more reveling outfit.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #105 on: August 20, 2017, 05:21:18 AM »
18:

Wait... so Chikujouin is now the good guy? Really, just like that? And we're supposed to just let everything she's done slip by because she has redeemed herself by relinquishing herself from this chaos? How am I supposed to accept this?

And what purpose does Mamika have, really?

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Re:Creators
« Reply #106 on: August 20, 2017, 09:42:01 AM »
Quote
Wait... so Chikujouin is now the good guy? Really, just like that? And we're supposed to just let everything she's done slip by because she has redeemed herself by relinquishing herself from this chaos? How am I supposed to accept this?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Since she's not on Altair side, might as well regard her as a friend, at lest an allies.

Quote
And what purpose does Mamika have, really?

The magical girl? Or to show how stupid Alicetaria is. Or how Alicetaria after her grief, realize that Altair is the real ememy. Or when everybody is some form of muscle head, she's the cute one. It's a pity she got 'written off'. I think she got the most growth potential of all the creators.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #107 on: August 20, 2017, 08:49:32 PM »
The magical girl? Or to show how stupid Alicetaria is. Or how Alicetaria after her grief, realize that Altair is the real ememy. Or when everybody is some form of muscle head, she's the cute one. It's a pity she got 'written off'. I think she got the most growth potential of all the creators.

Sorry, I meant Hikayu. Wrong character.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #108 on: August 20, 2017, 10:36:03 PM »
Sorry, I meant Hikayu. Wrong character.
Creators are characters from manga,LN, anime and even games. Meteora was from a  RPG game (i think). And Hikayu is from Dating sims games. (Why no Angry Birds) And as I said before, she's the joker in the group. As long as her creator can write a story the masses can accept, she can be anything. And he was right as a scanty clad fighter. A cross over from dating sims to Street Fighter like fighting games. Like Mai Shiranui from Fatal Fury. If you search, Fatal Fury, Street Fighters and King of Fighters all got some back story.

Honestly speaking, I think the writers just ham fist the story and hope we would accept it.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #109 on: August 20, 2017, 10:41:48 PM »
Creators are characters from manga,LN, anime and even games. Meteora was from a  RPG game (i think). And Hikayu is from Dating sims games. (Why no Angry Birds) And as I said before, she's the joker in the group. As long as her creator can write a story the masses can accept, she can be anything. And he was right as a scanty clad fighter. A cross over from dating sims to Street Fighter like fighting games. Like Mai Shiranui from Fatal Fury. If you search, Fatal Fury, Street Fighters and King of Fighters all got some back story.

Honestly speaking, I think the writers just ham fist the story and hope we would accept it.

That's fine and all, but my questions is bigger than that: why does this show even need a character like her in the first place? Does Re:Creators even need her?

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Re:Creators
« Reply #110 on: August 21, 2017, 02:19:11 PM »
Wait... so Chikujouin is now the good guy? Really, just like that? And we're supposed to just let everything she's done slip by because she has redeemed herself by relinquishing herself from this chaos? How am I supposed to accept this?

There's a bigger issue to deal with, and their not in a position to turn down help exactly, even from a head case like her.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #111 on: August 21, 2017, 11:58:15 PM »

That's fine and all, but my questions is bigger than that: why does this show even need a character like her in the first place? Does Re:Creators even need her?
Breaking the 4th wall theory.
1. They need cute and easily embarrassed girl. All the other girls are fighters
2. They need some fan service. (Panty flash from Meteora? Not happening. And Mamika died)
3. They need some comedy light moments. Hikayo's creator seems to be a grade A A-hole.
4. They need rating and they used 'tried and tested' cute girl with fan service and comedy.
5. They realize that it has become a talky.

Offline Major Tom

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #112 on: August 23, 2017, 06:49:13 AM »
......FFS Altair, can't you just be surprised by one thing at the very least? So you knew about Blitz's daughter coming back to life, you knew about Alicetaria turning on you....why did you even bother to show up? Still don't like Magane, she's mellowed out all of a sudden.

I did laugh when Yuya spoiled the big reveal for the next chapter, and I still think the scene between Blitz and Suruga is probably more in the direction of how the show should have gone. But Altair, she's like Biba was in Kabaneri. She just drags the whole thing down.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #113 on: August 27, 2017, 03:49:59 AM »
19:

Poor Alicetaria. Not only is she defeated, but her fate is decided by her role of the 'tragic knight'. I think she can relate to F/SN's Lancer on a very deep thought.

It's just odd to see how Altair's speech is all about breaking the fourth wall. That's our role; why is she stating the stuff that we're thinking? To show how omnipotent she is? If that's true, wouldn't she be able to foretell that she will eventually lose because she's the 'villain' of the show? What, she can't because that would be breaking the fifth wall, perhaps?

Hikayu's name-that-move scene was just cringeworthy.

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #114 on: September 02, 2017, 07:36:20 AM »
Try not to bitch about Atlair try not to bitch about Altair try not to bitch about Altair GOD DAMMIT ALTA........*deep breath*

I think I would have like the back and forth between Selesia and Charon if he had been around longer than half an episode.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2017, 05:31:46 AM »
20:

There's no way the show would end with a carbon copy of Altair. Too much of a cop-out, even for us.

Now this real ending, that's a lot more apt. But think about it: if she's a character come to life, that means she's been fictionalized. How tragic is that.

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Re:Creators
« Reply #116 on: September 10, 2017, 05:48:58 AM »
21:

That was very well-written, albeit melodramatic as expected.

It has never sit with me well how omnipotent Altair is (I still don't understand why she's omnipotent to begin with, but I guess the show doesn't bother about the details), but since she is, what's stopping her from being a Creation what can create worlds for another Creation à la Franklin Richards?

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #117 on: September 12, 2017, 06:52:57 AM »
21:

>multiple characters die or are now on the verge of death
>they fought for nothing because enemy gets easily talk no jutsu'd with a fake version of her GF
>something they could've tried from the very start of the battle
>"WOWEE LOOK! he audience have a 1000% acceptance rate even though they have no reason to care about Setsuna! They also pre-ordered the Re:Creators Blu-Ray and rated us five stars on your local anime rating website™"
It sucked. Time to end this trainwreck.

But honestly, no audience would accept even half of what happened in these episodes. They would be divided between those calling bullshit o have hax new powers and half the audience would be complaining about how their wasn't enough explosions towards the end. These people were eating it all up as if they were privy to the same background info as the audience.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 07:06:06 AM by gedata »

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2017, 01:16:22 AM »
22
At least they do a proper ending. Killing Alicetaria and Selesia was classic 'kill them all' Tomonie. And Setsuna is actually Magane? She live out her lie as Sestuna?

This is a great idea, that turn into a talky mass. Plot was wack in with a hammer. They talk too much. What was lacking was I don't feel for the characters. They feel too much 'cut and paste'. I feel more for the bunch of loosers in Gamers. With 22 episode, they could have expand on some characters, but it end up explaining how the 4th wall was broken. Even clique like romance between Selesia, Meteora and Souta could added a bit of humour. And the most sensible character, Mamika was killed off and replace by a date sim Hikayu.

And the final Operation......., I will not even get into that.

It's not all bad. Kanoya was pretty interesting. But not enought screen time. But not enought to save the Re:creators.

I give a 6. It got me interested. But they left me down. Good idea, Poor execution.


Offline AC

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Re:Creators
« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2017, 04:51:48 AM »
Final:

It ended the way it should. Honestly, it didn't occur to me that Magane became Setsuna in order to work her spell (then again, her spell is unnecessarily complicated, urgh). And I felt kinda sad for Meteora, although it seems appropriate: her Creator is dead and she's been the one who has come in peace with this world more than anyone else.

I've always loved the concept of this show: "what if comic writers were to meet their creations in real life?". It would open up a lot of discussion topics: how the world works, the characters' philosophies, Creations' relationships with their Creators and their own character development, etc. This part was done very well, and that's mostly the first half of the show.

Second half, bleh, it went south. It just lost its ingenuity, a lot of fluff is introduced and the story just went through the motions. Main gripes include Altair's omnipotence, Hikayu, and everything else the show could've done without just fine.

It's a 6/10 for me. Creator Hiroe and director Aoki had something going for a while, but too bad it didn't last.

Offline Major Tom

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #120 on: October 08, 2017, 07:54:32 AM »
Finally caught up on this show. I ended up tuning out during the last 2 episodes, it sounded like so much bullshit to me. However, Altair was powered by plot convenience, so it makes sense that she was defeated by plot convenience. I agree with AC's appreciation of the show. The concept was great, but the second half was blah, in particular ruined by Altair's omnipotence.
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