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Author Topic: Re:Creators  (Read 5115 times)

Offline Stark700

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Re:Creators
« on: April 07, 2017, 09:45:47 AM »
1:

Saw it on Anime Strike today.

The MC is pretty generic and not impressive but he gets himself caught into another world. I think the highlight of the show/episode is the music so far. Very noticeable soundtrack.

The place Celestia came from is mysterious so I hope they explore more that later. They didn't waste much time introducing Gunpuku no Himegimi into this show either. Plenty of action so far. Not all the main characters were introduced yet and we didn't see much of the OP song clips. However, I think the show itself establishes its premise already. Episode ends with the quote 'only takes 1 second for the world to change'. It's 22 episodes (2 cour) so plenty of time to develop the story and characters.

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2017, 12:47:40 PM »
1:

Yes Yes Yes!

There is so much information packed into this ep that I don't know where to begin.   Oh, the possibilities hinted...

TROYCA outdid themselves. The shot compositions and storyboarding were outstanding: The opening scene of the rail crossing pole lowering from the POV of the pole, the reflection seen in the MC's glasses, it all has meaning.  (POV is important, what we think we see is important.)  I spotted a bunch of other possible hints but I need to watch it again a few more times.  (If I am right then prepare for major mind screwing.) Pay attention to the ep titles.

The visual quality of the city aerial fight scene was on the level of a grail battle in FSN/UBW, simply amazing. The arrogant opponent is worthy of Gilgamesh (and I think I know why she is like that).

I WANT THAT SOUNDTRACK.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 01:53:36 PM by HuuskerDu »
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Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2017, 05:46:33 PM »
1:

Woah. That was way, way better than I expected; probably the best opening of the season so far. We've seen the main character dragged into a fantasy world a million times, but the idea of having not just one, but potentially all fictional characters gathering in the real world is tantalizing. That's an ambitious premise full of potential.

And so far, the directing is definitely on-track to realize that potential. I love the little touches that ground the setting in reality, despite all the fantasy stuff. For example, Selesia jabs her sword through the window to open it; when they get back, it's still broken.

There's just one little thing I'm worried about. For the love of god, DO NOT TURN INTO A HAREM.
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Offline Zeitgeist

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2017, 06:58:04 PM »
1:

Fairly Odd Parents - Channel Chasers: The Anime or ir is just Tsubasa Chronicles? Or is it just some wannabeFate-nonsense given the director. Aleast they may or may not be creating their own fake IP's.
Some hideous designs - Antagonist Girl + Princess(two-tone hair) +Dog Girl(she from Dog Days world?).
The mech was beautiful though
The two ally girls share both design sense and color scheme.

Seletia's world resembles Escaflowne.

I enjoyed deadpan girl's post-credit bullshit.

I'm pretty ambivalent as to the shows future glory. This episode was fun and had enjoyable music and that's really all that maters.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 07:05:55 PM by Zeitgeist »

Offline Gadget

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2017, 08:12:26 PM »
1
I make it simple.

It's Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe, with Being X in the backdrop of The Devil Is a Part Timer.

Offline Zeitgeist

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2017, 08:23:59 PM »
1
I make it simple.

It's Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe, with Being X in the backdrop of The Devil Is a Part Timer.

Hey I make the pointless references and equivalencies around here.

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2017, 08:31:54 PM »
The music composer is Sawano Hiroyuki, who composed the soundtracks for Attack on Titan, Guilty Crown, and Kabaneri.

Spoiler for speculation on future episodes and the concept of nested realities:
I think what we have here is a hierarchy of nested systems, where each system (or 'reality level' if you will) is both quantitatively and qualitatively 'bigger' in some sense than the reality levels contained within it.

If you have a computer background, one way to think of it is as a nested series of virtual machines (VMs), with each VM running inside a VM host that is 'bigger' both materially and conceptually than the VMs that it contains.

Another way to think of it is nested dream levels like in the film Inception, with its notion of a nested stack of dream levels, each controlled by a different person in the level above it.

More formally, you can create a model whereby each reality level Ln can be isomorphically mapped to an infinite set Sn that has a cardinal number אn, where אn+1 = 2אn per the Generalized Continuum Hypothesis (GCH).

I suspect that the reality stack depicted in Re:Creators has more than two levels in it. It might have three, four, or even more.  The in-story anime characters started at the bottom (level 1). The MC either started at level 2 or dropped down to 2 around the 4:00 mark when his tablet went kablooey. The Big Bad started at level 3 or 4. The author (Rei Hiroe) is at level 4 or 5. 

The big clue is when we see that the fantasy magic of the in-story anime characters still works up in the 'real world' where the MC lives.  Not so real then.

One way to pop up a level is to 'die' in that level. This happened in the film Inception, where a person can wake up from a dream level by killing themselves in that level.

This is what happned in ep 1 at 1:24 when the girl in the white dress apparently committed suicide at the train station by dropping in front of the speeding train. She was popping up a level.

The danger, however, is that this assumes that your 'real' self exists at a higher level of reality so you can pop back up to it.  If your assumption is wrong then you will become really dead, like when Mal jumped off the building in Inception when she mistakenly thought that she was still inside someone else's dream but she wasn't.

So now we know why the girl in the long military coat is such an arrogant little b*tch: she comes from a higher reality level and therefore is basically a goddess from the MC's POV.
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Offline Zeitgeist

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2017, 09:18:14 PM »
The music composer is Sawano Hiroyuki, who composed the soundtracks for Attack on Titan, Guilty Crown, and Kabaneri.

Spoiler for speculation on future episodes and the concept of nested realities:
I think what we have here is a hierarchy of nested systems, where each system (or 'reality level' if you will) is both quantitatively and qualitatively 'bigger' in some sense than the reality levels contained within it.

If you have a computer background, one way to think of it is as a nested series of virtual machines (VMs), with each VM running inside a VM host that is 'bigger' both materially and conceptually than the VMs that it contains.

Another way to think of it is nested dream levels like in the film Inception, with its notion of a nested stack of dream levels, each controlled by a different person in the level above it.

More formally, you can create a model whereby each reality level Ln can be isomorphically mapped to an infinite set Sn that has a cardinal number אn, where אn+1 = 2אn per the Generalized Continuum Hypothesis (GCH).

I suspect that the reality stack depicted in Re:Creators has more than two levels in it. It might have three, four, or even more.  The in-story anime characters started at the bottom (level 1). The MC either started at level 2 or dropped down to 2 around the 4:00 mark when his tablet went kablooey. The Big Bad started at level 3 or 4. The author (Rei Hiroe) is at level 4 or 5. 

The big clue is when we see that the fantasy magic of the in-story anime characters still works up in the 'real world' where the MC lives.  Not so real then.

One way to pop up a level is to 'die' in that level. This happened in the film Inception, where a person can wake up from a dream level by killing themselves in that level.

This is what happned in ep 1 at 1:24 when the girl in the white dress apparently committed suicide at the train station by dropping in front of the speeding train. She was popping up a level.

The danger, however, is that this assumes that your 'real' self exists at a higher level of reality so you can pop back up to it.  If your assumption is wrong then you will become really dead, like when Mal jumped off the building in Inception when she mistakenly thought that she was still inside someone else's dream but she wasn't.

So now we know why the girl in the long military coat is such an arrogant little b*tch: she comes from a higher reality level and therefore is basically a goddess from the MC's POV.

Spoiler for half-hearted response:
Just one question:
How does this serve the narrative?
I could devise some pretty sic power level chart with regards to the the Nasuverse but it doesnt make Fate/Zero anymore than a few basic ideological conflicts set within a needlessly meta world.
Does one's Origin World directly equate to their power? Would that reflect their introductory state or their potential for growth?
Establishing Quality of Worlds just seems restrictive.
Obviously the main cast will overcome so maybe not establish a hierarchy.
All this nonsense for what equates to "big narrative universe little substance".
For now I'm chalkin this up asies Clockwork Planet as a show with a cool world but throwaway story.[/spoler]

This may be the first Sawano Hiroyuki since Zombie Loan I ironically like.
 

Offline Gadget

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2017, 09:46:11 PM »


Spoiler for speculation on future episodes and the concept of nested realities:
I think what we have here is a hierarchy of nested systems, where each system (or 'reality level' if you will) is both quantitatively and qualitatively 'bigger' in some sense than the reality levels contained within it.

If you have a computer background, one way to think of it is as a nested series of virtual machines (VMs), with each VM running inside a VM host that is 'bigger' both materially and conceptually than the VMs that it contains.

Another way to think of it is nested dream levels like in the film Inception, with its notion of a nested stack of dream levels, each controlled by a different person in the level above it.

More formally, you can create a model whereby each reality level Ln can be isomorphically mapped to an infinite set Sn that has a cardinal number אn, where אn+1 = 2אn per the Generalized Continuum Hypothesis (GCH).

I suspect that the reality stack depicted in Re:Creators has more than two levels in it. It might have three, four, or even more.  The in-story anime characters started at the bottom (level 1). The MC either started at level 2 or dropped down to 2 around the 4:00 mark when his tablet went kablooey. The Big Bad started at level 3 or 4. The author (Rei Hiroe) is at level 4 or 5. 

The big clue is when we see that the fantasy magic of the in-story anime characters still works up in the 'real world' where the MC lives.  Not so real then.

One way to pop up a level is to 'die' in that level. This happened in the film Inception, where a person can wake up from a dream level by killing themselves in that level.

This is what happned in ep 1 at 1:24 when the girl in the white dress apparently committed suicide at the train station by dropping in front of the speeding train. She was popping up a level.

The danger, however, is that this assumes that your 'real' self exists at a higher level of reality so you can pop back up to it.  If your assumption is wrong then you will become really dead, like when Mal jumped off the building in Inception when she mistakenly thought that she was still inside someone else's dream but she wasn't.

So now we know why the girl in the long military coat is such an arrogant little b*tch: she comes from a higher reality level and therefore is basically a goddess from the MC's POV.

Please don't make my head pop.


Hey I make the pointless references and equivalencies around here.

Ahhh Sorry, (Check post)

Yo Zeitgeist, I got more post then yours. I'm sure  not all are sens less rambling. ;D

Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2017, 09:53:47 PM »
I'm not so enthusiastic.
Spoiler for nested realities:
It would make a great 'oh sh!t' moment to be sure, but I'm not sure we have enough episodes to make use of the reveal in a sensible way.

For one, at the moment it seems like people coming from a lower level are actually more powerful. They get to have whatever crazy fantasy powers you can dream of, and once they cross over into the world of their creators, they gain all the powers of a creator as well. For example, Selesia could hunt down the writer of her story and force him to give her a happy ending, or do whatever else she wants with her own world, basically making her god. She could also do the same with other writers, or even write her own story if she chose. Because of her fantasy powers, none of them can stop her. If there is a third level, then she's even more powerful, because if we cross over again, the people in the 'real' world can't threaten their creators with fantasy powers in the same way. Finally, if the smug girl IS a third-level creator, then she should be at her most vulnerable when in the world of her creation, because outside it she's god, whereas inside it she merely has fantasy powers. She might be very powerful, but she can't literally erase someone from existence with a sentence or two.
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Offline Zeitgeist

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2017, 10:02:20 PM »


Spoiler for speculation on future episodes and the concept of nested realities:
I think what we have here is a hierarchy of nested systems, where each system (or 'reality level' if you will) is both quantitatively and qualitatively 'bigger' in some sense than the reality levels contained within it.

If you have a computer background, one way to think of it is as a nested series of virtual machines (VMs), with each VM running inside a VM host that is 'bigger' both materially and conceptually than the VMs that it contains.

Another way to think of it is nested dream levels like in the film Inception, with its notion of a nested stack of dream levels, each controlled by a different person in the level above it.

More formally, you can create a model whereby each reality level Ln can be isomorphically mapped to an infinite set Sn that has a cardinal number אn, where אn+1 = 2אn per the Generalized Continuum Hypothesis (GCH).

I suspect that the reality stack depicted in Re:Creators has more than two levels in it. It might have three, four, or even more.  The in-story anime characters started at the bottom (level 1). The MC either started at level 2 or dropped down to 2 around the 4:00 mark when his tablet went kablooey. The Big Bad started at level 3 or 4. The author (Rei Hiroe) is at level 4 or 5. 

The big clue is when we see that the fantasy magic of the in-story anime characters still works up in the 'real world' where the MC lives.  Not so real then.

One way to pop up a level is to 'die' in that level. This happened in the film Inception, where a person can wake up from a dream level by killing themselves in that level.

This is what happned in ep 1 at 1:24 when the girl in the white dress apparently committed suicide at the train station by dropping in front of the speeding train. She was popping up a level.

The danger, however, is that this assumes that your 'real' self exists at a higher level of reality so you can pop back up to it.  If your assumption is wrong then you will become really dead, like when Mal jumped off the building in Inception when she mistakenly thought that she was still inside someone else's dream but she wasn't.

So now we know why the girl in the long military coat is such an arrogant little b*tch: she comes from a higher reality level and therefore is basically a goddess from the MC's POV.

Please don't make my head pop.


Hey I make the pointless references and equivalencies around here.

Ahhh Sorry, (Check post)

Yo Zeitgeist, I got more post then yours. I'm sure  not all are sens less rambling. ;D

Comin' in hot
But genuinely correct.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 10:26:05 PM by Zeitgeist »

Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2017, 11:02:13 PM »
I'm not so enthusiastic.
Spoiler for nested realities:
It would make a great 'oh sh!t' moment to be sure, but I'm not sure we have enough episodes to make use of the reveal in a sensible way.

For one, at the moment it seems like people coming from a lower level are actually more powerful. They get to have whatever crazy fantasy powers you can dream of, and once they cross over into the world of their creators, they gain all the powers of a creator as well. For example, Selesia could hunt down the writer of her story and force him to give her a happy ending, or do whatever else she wants with her own world, basically making her god. She could also do the same with other writers, or even write her own story if she chose. Because of her fantasy powers, none of them can stop her. If there is a third level, then she's even more powerful, because if we cross over again, the people in the 'real' world can't threaten their creators with fantasy powers in the same way. Finally, if the smug girl IS a third-level creator, then she should be at her most vulnerable when in the world of her creation, because outside it she's god, whereas inside it she merely has fantasy powers. She might be very powerful, but she can't literally erase someone from existence with a sentence or two.

Well by that logic Rei Hiroe had better watch his back. :)

Spoiler for nested realities:
More seriously, all they are seeing is her level 2 virtual avatar.  And remember that she claimed that she was responsible for the uplifts. She did it, not them.  (Why? She said for 'punishment' but who knows.) They won't be able to do anything that she does not allow (unless she gets overconfident and fails to follow the Evil Overlord checklist or screws up some other way).
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Offline Marid King

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2017, 12:28:21 AM »
Well that's a new spin on author self-insert.
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Offline HuuskerDu

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2017, 02:04:07 AM »
Hmm, Little General B*tch (for want of a better name) is acting rather odd...

Spoiler for speculation on LGB's origin:
Sometimes LGB acts like she is an entity that exists above level 2, and yet sometimes she acts like she came from level 1.  The evidence for the former is that LGB lifted up Meteora and Celestia herself (or so she claims), she seems to be invulnerable, she can de-rezz out of level 2 at will, and she is arrogant as all get out like Gilgamesh (complete with sword spamming). All this would seem to indicate that LGB is a powerful entity that exists above level 2.

And yet during the city fight she mentioned to Meteora that she herself was transported to the city by someone else. Earlier she looked quite surprised when Sota appeared on level 1 (Celestia's world), saying "[Sota] being transported to your [Celestia's] world is truly a curious development." She later gave Celestia high regard (relatively speaking), even offering Celestia a chance to join her, saying,  "My master liked you too."

Wait, LGB has a master? Who could that be?

Sota is a huge fan of Celestia. He snaps pictures of images of Celestia on street billboards. He searches for her on fan websites. He subscribes to a magazine featuring her on the cover.  Meanwhile he sits at his PC, which runs an Adobe Illustrator-like app, complete with a digital stylus and pad.  He's a creator himself.

LGB's cheesy military garb looks like something a teenager would create. 

(FWIW I don't think he's doing it consciously.)

So LGB's motive might be...

Spoiler for LGB's motive:
Assuming that Sota is unconsciously LGB's master, it offers an explanation of why LGB wants to punish the creators. It is because Sota wants to punish them himself (again unconsciously).  It might be because he doesn't have the creators' skill (in ep 1 he sat looking at a blank Illustrator page unable to draw anything), or perhaps his attempted manga submissions were cruelly rejected by potential publishers, or maybe his doujins suck and don't sell. We don't know yet. Whatever her motive it's tied to Sota.

In the post-ED scene, Meteora explained to Sota that all this might simply be his own hallucination - a Dorthy and the Wizard of Oz type situation. Like Dorothy, he might have bumped his head and this is all happening in a fevered dream. Meteora explained that there is no way for Sota to know for sure (she explicitly mentioned solipsism).

However, I don't think this is the case here. The suicide of the mousy girl in the white dress is a big clue.  If she was indeed popping up to level 3 it means that level 2 is not taking place in Sota's dream.

... and we have 22 eps to find out.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 02:33:41 AM by HuuskerDu »
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Offline Pebble

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Re: Re:Creators
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2017, 09:01:21 PM »
1:

K. Im going to post my conjectures in response to HDu's.

Spoiler for Re:speculation:

I think what we have here is a hierarchy of nested systems, where each system (or 'reality level' if you will) is both quantitatively and qualitatively 'bigger' in some sense than the reality levels contained within it.
Yep.

More formally, you can create a model whereby each reality level Ln can be isomorphically mapped to an infinite set Sn that has a cardinal number אn, where אn+1 = 2אn per the Generalized Continuum Hypothesis (GCH).
I... dont think these 'reality levels' and cardinals are sufficiently similar to be "isomorphic". In any case this is just me kvetching about technicalities irrelevant to the show. Also you dont need GCH to show the higher alephs exist; thats a simpler result and just follows from Cantor's theorem + the well ordering of the cardinals (which follows rather trivially from the definition of a cardinal).

I suspect that the reality stack depicted in Re:Creators has more than two levels in it. It might have three, four, or even more.  The in-story anime characters started at the bottom (level 1). The MC either started at level 2 or dropped down to 2 around the 4:00 mark when his tablet went kablooey. The Big Bad started at level 3 or 4. The author (Rei Hiroe) is at level 4 or 5. 
Just speaking in terms of world mechanics we dont have any reason to believe that such a nested system be well founded (i.e. that there be a highest/lowest level level). That makes for quite a few annoyances. But I think Occam's razor can shave it down to a well-founded system based on Sota's level (lets just call it L0; I'll be inverting your numbering system for my post). Creators exist in L0, and do their thing. They can make up worlds, etc, and then pop up their fictitious characters (currently a conjecture; we dont know if this is unique to Sota). Things get screwy when we allow them to create creators in L1 or lower and then pop them to L0. That is a possible explanation for your question of LGB's arrogance. Creators' powers appear to be limited to generation in strictly lower levels, that is they cannot give themselves any further powers than they already have. Frankly, considering the ubiquity of fiction with characters having basically omnipotent powers (e.g. Fullmetal Alch, Naruto, etc.) its not like L1 creators should be rare.
At the moment we can assume creators can only create; they can't erase. Still, if you are, say an L0 creator or L1 creator popped to L0 you can by various unreliable means (finding and coercing the relevant L0 creator) cause events to happen that destroy things in L1.
Lets also not forget the system is more like a tree than it is like a linear ordering. Sota presumably cant create things in a universe he hasn't conceived.

The big clue is when we see that the fantasy magic of the in-story anime characters still works up in the 'real world' where the MC lives.  Not so real then.
Marid King dealt with this. There isn't currently a reason to believe that fantasy powers cease to function when popped up sufficiently many times. Well, currently.

One way to pop up a level is to 'die' in that level. This happened in the film Inception, where a person can wake up from a dream level by killing themselves in that level.
Maybe. But we know its not the only way to pop up; Souta popped up before he got stabbed. This thread might just be that girl's character arc.

Sometimes LGB acts like she is an entity that exists above level 2, and yet sometimes she acts like she came from level 1.  The evidence for the former is that LGB lifted up Meteora and Celestia herself (or so she claims), she seems to be invulnerable, she can de-rezz out of level 2 at will, and she is arrogant as all get out like Gilgamesh (complete with sword spamming). All this would seem to indicate that LGB is a powerful entity that exists above level 2.
Again, could be an L1 creator...

Assuming that Sota is unconsciously LGB's master, it offers an explanation of why LGB wants to punish the creators. It is because Sota wants to punish them himself (again unconsciously).  It might be because he doesn't have the creators' skill (in ep 1 he sat looking at a blank Illustrator page unable to draw anything), or perhaps his attempted manga submissions were cruelly rejected by potential publishers, or maybe his doujins suck and don't sell. We don't know yet. Whatever her motive it's tied to Sota.
I like this conjecture.

Well, all this is what I think constructs the most stable, smallest system possible with this ruleset. One could argue that the elements of the tree at level Ln perhaps aymptotically approach some finite number as n grows large, since all creation originates at the one reality at L0 and there are only so many situations which lead to an infinite subtree of the tree. Ok thats a bad argument. Nevermind it. Chief problem with my model is it offers no explanation for the suicide of the girl in the white dress.

In the post-ED scene, Meteora explained to Sota that all this might simply be his own hallucination - a Dorthy and the Wizard of Oz type situation. Like Dorothy, he might have bumped his head and this is all happening in a fevered dream. Meteora explained that there is no way for Sota to know for sure (she explicitly mentioned solipsism).
Goes back to the notion that we can't show that the system is well-founded, or more precisely, founded at Souta's level. I.e. Sota may be an L7 creator for all we know. But I think Meteora's comment is the biggest clue towards the possibility that there are higher levels than L0.
Note this novel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirts_(novel). Put briefly the premise of the novel is that the redshirts from Star Trek begin to conjecture that they are so short lived since they are redshirts in a badly written TV show from the late 60s, and that they make the stupid decisions that always get them killed because whenever the script intersects their daily lives they lose their free will. This is the best alternate explanation to the suicide I can offer: the girl isn't popping up; she is being puppeteered by someone in L-1.

EDIT: There might be another problem with the well-foundedness theory that plays on the difference between origin and causality; what happens if you are a creator and you create L-1. That is you imagine a universe where someone has control over the events in L0. Then is L-1 in L1 or is it its own level? This shows that an ordering by origin isnt necessarily an ordering in terms of power.

What is this show I dont even know anymore.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 09:07:58 PM by Pebble »
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