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December 14, 2017, 02:06:11 PM
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Author Topic: Dragon Ball Super  (Read 3476 times)

Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2017, 08:21:31 PM »
Yeah, but the rules of the dragon are funky and weird.  Vegeta has been wished back by the Earth dragon twice.  Once as part of the wish to "revive everyone Frieza had killed", which brought back the Namekians, including the Elder and the Namekian Dragon Balls, and Vegeta.  He was then brought back later by Dende's dragon after blowing himself up to stop Majin Buu.  Actually, I think he was revived twice in the Buu arc alone.  Krillin, and everybody else on Earth, are also killed during Kid Buu's rage, and were all subsequently brought back, even though Krillin has already been brought back by Earth's dragon once (Krillin's second death was reversed by the Namekian dragon).  I'm not sure on Piccolo.  I know he was restored by the Namekian dragon once and by the Earth dragon after Kid Buu blows up the Earth, but while he's gotten his ass kicked numerous times and nearly died in those instances, I can't remember Piccolo dying again.  I know Chaotzu is in the same category as Krillin and I think Tien as well.

Goku was brought back to fight the Saiyans, then didn't die again until Cell, was brought back for the World Tournament by Baba for a day (similar to what they're doing now with Frieza), and then was permanently restored by the Old Kai sacrificing himself to Goku could be restored.  I don't think Goku has died since.  So, yes, they're consistent with Goku, just not everybody else.

I remember an upgraded Porunga brought back the Earth and all of it's inhabitants near the end of the Majin Buu arc and not Shenron (there was no Earth before the wishes were made, and thus no Earth Dragon Balls). This means that Vegeta, Krillin, Piccolo and Chiaotzu were all brought back by Shenron only once, and revived by Porunga for their other death(s).

So yeah, the series has been pretty consistent with Shenron's "you only get one" rule thus far.

Offline Rei

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2017, 01:58:37 AM »
Vegeta has been wished back by the Earth dragon twice.  Once as part of the wish to "revive everyone Frieza had killed", which brought back the Namekians, including the Elder and the Namekian Dragon Balls, and Vegeta.  He was then brought back later by Dende's dragon after blowing himself up to stop Majin Buu.  Actually, I think he was revived twice in the Buu arc alone.
1. Resurrected on Namek through the wish you mentioned (using the Earth set).
2. After his sacrifice, he was temporarily sent back to Earth by Enma-oh to stop BŻ, but as a dead man led by Baba. Then he fuses with the living Goku.
3. After Goku failed to win over BŻ on the KaiŰ Shin planet, Bejita sets his plan in motion: it's then that Dende goes to the new Namek planet and asks Polunga to "resurrect the not evil people who died on Earth following the arrival of Babidi & co." (so that Babidi and his crew wouldn't come back to life but Bejita's own victims would, if I remember well).  Bejita subsequently loses his aureole, thus proving once more that he really wasn't his old-self anymore.


Sorry for my english and the bad wording of the wish.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2017, 11:20:13 AM »
95:

Okay, now I'm back into it.  Frieza being consistently evil and now becoming the wild card for the events of the tournament makes this now interesting.  Very very interesting.

I know the power scaling is all ****ed up in Super, which I am actually fine with because now it makes everything unpredictable, but having Frieza nix a God of Destruction's "hakai" powers is kind of a "hah?" moment.  Whis dropped a bomb on us that not all Gods of Destruction are on equal power levels, which I guess shouldn't be a surprise, so it is possible that Sidora is just not that strong or that not coming directly from a God of Destruction meant it didn't have as much "oomph", but still.  If the Gods aren't going to be the ultimate barometer to keep the power scaling under control, then that means eventually even Zen-Oh-sama is going to be overcome by someone, who will somehow be stronger than the creator of all living things, which just seems like we're in fanfiction level of obnoxious.

Of course, if you read the manga, you'd know that Goku now somehow can do a variant of the "hakai" powers of a God of Destruction himself, which is.... I don't even ****ing know anymore.  I always figured one day the point of having Beerus was for Goku or someone to eventually surpass him and become the new God of Destruction, but jeeeeeezus.  Goku's "mary sue"ness is approaching intolerable levels.
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Offline ckarasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2017, 01:06:30 AM »
95:

Okay, now I'm back into it.  Frieza being consistently evil and now becoming the wild card for the events of the tournament makes this now interesting.  Very very interesting.

I know the power scaling is all ****ed up in Super, which I am actually fine with because now it makes everything unpredictable, but having Frieza nix a God of Destruction's "hakai" powers is kind of a "hah?" moment.  Whis dropped a bomb on us that not all Gods of Destruction are on equal power levels, which I guess shouldn't be a surprise, so it is possible that Sidora is just not that strong or that not coming directly from a God of Destruction meant it didn't have as much "oomph", but still.  If the Gods aren't going to be the ultimate barometer to keep the power scaling under control, then that means eventually even Zen-Oh-sama is going to be overcome by someone, who will somehow be stronger than the creator of all living things, which just seems like we're in fanfiction level of obnoxious.

Of course, if you read the manga, you'd know that Goku now somehow can do a variant of the "hakai" powers of a God of Destruction himself, which is.... I don't even ****ing know anymore.  I always figured one day the point of having Beerus was for Goku or someone to eventually surpass him and become the new God of Destruction, but jeeeeeezus.  Goku's "mary sue"ness is approaching intolerable levels.

The reception to Freeza coming back has been decidedly more positive than in the RoF arc. He feels like he's actually doing something now, so that might be a part of it. Definitely a fan of the recent episode.

I THINK that's unique to the manga. Felt very fanfictiony to give Goku that ability(since Toyotaro is a fanfic author of sorts, I was not too surprised by this). Everyone singing the praises of the manga in the DB community, but it's not much better than the anime. It just looks nicer.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2017, 04:14:27 AM »
Yeah, there was nothing in the Ressurection F film or arc that was worth a shit.  It was a gigantic 'Member Berry for those who wanted to see the Namek fight again, which is what they got (for the most part).  Frieza is evil but also beyond arrogant to the point of stupidity, Ginyu shows up and reminds us he was still alive and does the body swap thing again just in case we forgot, Frieza shows off his remarkably high power level with a final transformation, Goku surprises him and everybody by again going Super Saiyan albeit in a different fashion, and so on and so forth.  The only thing different was Vegeta being alive, also somehow going Super Cyan, and then Frieza actually winning because Saiyans are imbeciles, but everything is okay because you have literal deus ex machinas running amok.

This Frieza feels a lot more like what I was hoping Frieza would do then.  Be deliciously evil, but also intelligent about it, and certainly showing that he is a lot more uncontrollable than Goku thought possible.  Frieza never struck me as a moron.  Overconfident in his abilities and, therefore, complacent perhaps, but to be fair to him nobody he had ever run into had been even close to him in terms of power level (except for maybe members of his own family).  They retconned things so that Frieza was a part time minion of Beerus, and that the Galactic Emperor was also aware of Majin Buu, because why not, but outside of them, he never had a serious challenge.  Regardless, after dying not once, but twice to piss-color auraed space monkeys, you'd think he'd have learned something.  I suppose he did, coming up with the idea of training for four months (ugh), and unlocking the Golden Frieza form, but he was right back to being utterly dumb.  He basically pulled a Wrath of Khan on us, where he had the opportunity to go and rebuild his empire and put together a serious army for whatever plots he wanted, but instead he just chases Goku into the Mutara Nebula (so to speak) and doesn't think three dimensionally.

Anyway, Frieza here seems like an interesting wrinkle, and I hope his plans reach some kind of fruition.  I sincerely do NOT want Frieza redeemed to be another anti-hero for the Z fighters like other former antagonists, but that also means Frieza is going to die again, and maybe "hakai"d so he can't ever be brought back again, because you can't just have the villain win and be running amok out there without Goku and Co stopping him.  It just wouldn't work.

As for the "hakai" thing, I am not going to get into any kind of retarded debate on the manga vs. the anime, because I don't give two shits which one is "canon".  Toei did this to themselves by pushing Super too quickly before the manga could build a lot more head start.  Now we've been stuck in filler hell for a while so that the manga can finally finish up the utterly stupid Black arc.
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Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2017, 02:11:42 PM »
95:

Okay, now I'm back into it.  Frieza being consistently evil and now becoming the wild card for the events of the tournament makes this now interesting.  Very very interesting.

I know the power scaling is all ****ed up in Super, which I am actually fine with because now it makes everything unpredictable, but having Frieza nix a God of Destruction's "hakai" powers is kind of a "hah?" moment.  Whis dropped a bomb on us that not all Gods of Destruction are on equal power levels, which I guess shouldn't be a surprise, so it is possible that Sidora is just not that strong or that not coming directly from a God of Destruction meant it didn't have as much "oomph", but still.  If the Gods aren't going to be the ultimate barometer to keep the power scaling under control, then that means eventually even Zen-Oh-sama is going to be overcome by someone, who will somehow be stronger than the creator of all living things, which just seems like we're in fanfiction level of obnoxious.

I just interpret Freeza getting a handle of Sidra's hakai energy as a sign that not all God's of Destruction are equal in power and that their only considered as powerful relative to the rest of their universe. Universe 9's been portrayed as something of joke so their God of Destruction being among the weaker ones isn't out of the question.


Of course, if you read the manga, you'd know that Goku now somehow can do a variant of the "hakai" powers of a God of Destruction himself, which is.... I don't even ****ing know anymore.  I always figured one day the point of having Beerus was for Goku or someone to eventually surpass him and become the new God of Destruction, but jeeeeeezus.  Goku's "mary sue"ness is approaching intolerable levels.

I'm just thankful that nothing in the manga approaches the same level of awfulness as Trunks' SSRage transformation + Spirit Bomb with the energy of a dozen survivors and a weakened Goku/Vegeta being enough to topple Zamasu. It's not finished yet but Toyotaro would actually have to be trying in order to out bullshit the anime at this point. I'm not sure what Goku's use of the hakai ability means for the manga down the road but it didn't hurt much here since it didn't really amount to anything.

Offline ckarasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2017, 05:46:11 PM »

I'm just thankful that nothing in the manga approaches the same level of awfulness as Trunks' SSRage transformation + Spirit Bomb with the energy of a dozen survivors and a weakened Goku/Vegeta being enough to topple Zamasu. It's not finished yet but Toyotaro would actually have to be trying in order to out bullshit the anime at this point. I'm not sure what Goku's use of the hakai ability means for the manga down the road but it didn't hurt much here since it didn't really amount to anything.

I personally think it's quite harmful(not that the anime hasn't done dumb things, as you've stated). Makes the God of Destruction role look less intimidating if anyone can use that ability. Hell, Freeza only took that blast well because it was someone else using SOME energy from Sidra, IIRC. It also makes Goku look like more of a fanfiction character by him just using it, as well as the typical "Oh wow, that was so dangerous!" cliche right after. It felt like a huge faux pas.

And I do agree with you, TIF. I'm not into the "manga is canon/anime is canon" argument. I follow the anime because I like it more, and if someone likes the manga more then so be it. I just don't like the "manga is better" statements that are coming out, while ignoring the issues the manga has.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2017, 10:41:46 PM »
QUOTE ABUSE!  QUUUUOOOOOTE ABUUUUUSE!
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Offline SQA

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2017, 06:47:25 AM »
QUOTE ABUSE!  QUUUUOOOOOTE ABUUUUUSE!

Haha.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2017, 08:32:19 AM »
97:

Okay, here we go!  This started out as utter chaos which is what you'd expect from a battle royal.  Someone at Toei had fun making some 'splosions to cover the battlefield so they didn't have to animate every other fighter moving about at the same time (good call), and though we saw several repeat animation shots (sad), overall it was pretty interesting to see the not main characters doing things. Basil was pretty effective at the start, and the strategies employed by the various characters will be interesting to behold.  I have to think that you're going to get someone with the ol' Kamehameha / Something beam struggle moment to push someone off, but that's for the future, in the meantime we have lots of random bullshit going on.  And, of course, Goku being a ****ing imbecile somehow doesn't come back to bite him in the ass.  Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, anybody else, if they do something careless or stupid, they're taken out, but oh no not Goku.  He has to survive because he's the most important guy.  I did find it interesting that one of the plots involved having a fighter sacrifice themselves to get rid of Goku.  Not a bad plan and it almost worked because Goku is a moron.  We can't have him lose early, though, because there are fights to be had!  Fights we haven't seen yet!  But it would have been really ballsy to have him lose early.  REALLY ballsy.

Of course, they did it in the U6/U7 tournament and a plot induced rule allowed him to come back, so it wouldn't be that ballsy here because they'd do the same damn thing.  Because Goku has to fight the strongest guy.  It just has to happen.  The universes revolve around him.

Anyway, this first episode of the tournament was paced well and a whole lot of stuff happened.  Surely this won't be padded out over the course of two seaso....

"47 minutes left until the tournament (implying all of that shit happened in only one minute)"

...oh God damnit.

*EDIT*

Speaking of Gods and damnit, for a second there, I thought when Zen-Oh-sama(s) pulled out their God tablets that when they selected the defeated fighters, they were going to be erased right there on the spot.  Like, "oh, falling off just puts me on the bench, okay" then BLAM!  Vaporized!  Like, the ultimate whiplash where you think you're okay, but nope!  It would create actual tension!  Like, you can't wish this shit back with the Dragon Balls, Goku!  Watch in terror as you now have to fight for your individual existence in addition to your universe's!

Then they pussied out and just had the sama(s) tracking the defeats.  Lame.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 11:39:01 AM by TypicalIdiotFan »
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Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2017, 11:46:14 PM »

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2017, 03:20:02 AM »
Like I said, several repeat shots, including ones from just a few minutes ago in the episode.  I have to imagine they're still padding and fillering as much as possible for the manga's sake.

Then I remember this is Toei and I remember that they always do this.
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Offline SQA

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2017, 01:20:21 AM »
At least they could have flipped the sides on the previous animation so it would be harder to notice, haha.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2017, 12:47:08 PM »
98:

This episode was a joke.  If you ever wanted an example of why getting ahead of the manga source material was bad, I give you Universe 9.  U9 was introduced during the filler arcs between the end of the Black / Zamasu arc and the Tournament of Power arc.  We know the ToP arc is canonical because the manga is heading that direction as well.  The reason Frieza was suddenly introduced as the new 10th man on the roster was because the manga was going to go that direction, and the anime had to scramble to catch up in a jarring bit of convenience.  So why was U9 eliminated in one episode?  Because they're not ****ing supposed to be there.  Either U9 was not in Toriyama's plans in the first place (that is, it wasn't one of the universes up for elimination) or the characters from U9 weren't the ones Toriyama had in mind and were all filler created nobodies that weren't intended to be the threats they were perceived to be.

To wit, not more than twenty episodes ago, U9's Trio De Dangers were a significantly larger threat to Goku, Gohan, and Buu than they are here.  In fact, Bergamo alone took on Super Saiyan Blue Goku and fought him rather well.  Now?  Nah.  We have to get rid of these guys, so we're going to make them look like chumps.  Never mind that Basil eliminated a U4 fighter himself, which now makes U4 look pathetic, but all it takes in this Tournament of Power, which is supposed to showcase the strongest fighters in the universes, is two Saiyans from U7 because they're the ****ing heroes.

The whole thing was bullshit from start to finish.
-Goku puts up a glowy white barrier thingy so he can't be poisoned.  Nobody bothers to explain what would happen if he breathed in the gas, because that's not important, even though Gohan was blinded by a jet in his face before.  Heretofore Goku has NEVER DEMONSTRATED that he has the ability to put up an impregnable force field designed to stop biological attacks (except for in the above Webm file that shows him doing it for no reason against guys whose abilities he has no knowledge of), but because Lavender's poison is actually a threat to everybody, they had to eliminate his ability to be useful at all.  Actually, this entire episode was about negating the importance of special moves and attacks.

-Bergamo's ability was to absorb enemy power and become stronger and larger.  Doesn't use it once.

-Basil does practically nothing.

-Hysopp's ability is to freeze someone "to the bone".  Oh nevermind, Vegeta can just power through it.

-Another dude's ability is to shoot spiderwebs at enemies to immobiliz... oh wait Vegeta is just really strong.

-Catwoman has razor claws that can slide open skin easi... oh wait, we don't show blood anymore, so the force field barrier will stop that, too.  Except she also slices Lavender, who also doesn't bleed.

-Lizardman has the ability to absorb shocks and feel no damage from it, but apparently he can easily be blown away with a quick Super Saiyan energy blast.

-Batman... I don't know what Batman can do.  Except eliminate himself by being so afraid of Frieza that he risks his own erasure.

-Bunnygirl gets eliminated off camera.

-Who was their 10th fighter?

The good was that the U9 team was erased quickly and without mercy by Zen-Oh-Sama, which was a legitimately horrifying moment, or should have been, but aside from the narrator mentioning how horrible it was, it didn't look like anybody cared.  Goku and Vegeta were just single-handedly responsible for the elimination of BILLIONS of living creatures.  While you can pass the buck and say "Zen-Oh-Sama did it" or that "they had no choice; eliminate or be eliminated" or "my dry cleaning still has gravy stains on it", there is still a moral implication to all of this that is not being explored.  That the U9 angel had a little smirk at the end there, should reveal that there is something far more sinister to all of this, way beyond simply a god of everything being a god of everything.  They are fighting a divine equivalent of the Roman Colosseum where they are the Christians and the lions, and it doesn't seem like whomever wins will come out of it without being party to the murder of trillions of other universe lives.  Nobody has questioned Zen-Oh-Sama and what he's doing, and this goes back to why Goku has been evil in this case.  Goku just wants to fight strong guys; his selfish desires used to only be self destructive, but have gotten increasingly more involving to other people as it has gone on.  His family, his world, his universe, OTHER UNIVERSES, there is no end to the devil may care attitude he takes just so he can fulfill his own lust for combat.  However, Goku has no concern over the other universes and their well beings; Goku has no desire to confront Zen-Oh-Sama about how evil this tournament is, which amounts to dancing like puppets on the palm of the ultimate God; Goku has no desire to even work together with his own universe teammates to keep themselves alive, instead favoring his own indulgence in fighting the "strong guys".

While people can excuse Goku's behavior as his typical childish innocence or powerlessness insofar as being in the face of the Gods, that doesn't excuse his overall behavior in this.  We don't know if Zen-Oh-Sama was really going to eliminate the other universes, and if he was, whether he was going to do it anytime soon.  To the ultimate God, what is a day, or an eon?  Maybe they do get erased some day, even if the rationale behind who stays and who goes is obnoxiously vague to the audience, and maybe by doing this he has given one of these universes a "fighting chance", but the reality is that instead of standing up and telling Zen-Oh-Sama, someone who apparently likes Goku and is willing to listen to him, that this is wrong, Goku goes along with it as if the ultimate God did him a favor.

I can't excuse Goku in any of this, and it is no surprise the other universes hate his guts.  I can't agree with anything Goku has done in this entire arc, or even the entire Super version of Dragonball.  It is almost as if his child-like nature was never a good thing in the first place, but he's gotten so much worse it makes him seem more alien than he already is.
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Offline ckarasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2017, 09:27:44 AM »
TIF, I hate to break it to you, but the manga is not the source anymore. Even Toyotaro, the person making the manga, has basically said as much. They're sister works, essentially, and have their own differences. Both are working off of the same outline, and have their own direction for the most part.

This is not to discredit your other complaints, because they still apply. It's just that the manga being the source is a misunderstanding of the dynamic between the two media. Toriyama is now just indirectly involved in the series on both ends, and is letting Toei and Toyotaro do their own things with the anime and manga, respectively.
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