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Author Topic: Dragon Ball Super  (Read 2907 times)

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Dragon Ball Super
« on: December 10, 2016, 03:30:25 AM »
Just making this thread for one reason, and that's the glory that was Arale coming in and wrecking shit, Vegeta breaking the 4th wall, and Beerus getting the worst case of dysentery.  Even the God of Destruction couldn't avoid the gag. Episode 69 is what happens when a gag-manga character comes in and runs amok.  Makes me wonder a bit if Toriyama was having some fun with the One Punch Man arguments, because, yep, gag manga characters always win.  Always. 

Now, Arale vs. Saitama, that might end the universe.
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Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2016, 12:47:19 PM »
This show blows, though I'm glad there's a place here to vent. Only reason I haven't made this thread yet is because I assumed I was the only one watching this to begin with.

The between-arc fillers are OK but every single arc has been bad.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 12:56:19 PM by gedata »

Offline Reckoner

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2016, 01:03:34 PM »
I thought the Goku Black arc was decent, but it ended rather disappointingly.

As a Gohan fan this entire anime was made to spite me though I swear.

Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2016, 04:56:00 PM »
I thought the Goku Black arc was decent, but it ended rather disappointingly.

As a Gohan fan this entire anime was made to spite me though I swear.

It had a fine start but took too long to get to the point. I would be OK with this if the foundation for the entire arc even happening made a lick of sense. It tries to go for a causal time loop but it creates way too many inconsistencies for me to buy any of this happening. They also turned mah boi Trunks into a blatant Mary Sue with nary a lick of explanation before having a pointlessly tacked on cynical bullshit ending. Especially bad considering the other viable ways through which this arc could've been resolved, but they had to waste the re-introduction of both the Mafu-ba and Vegito for no reason. It's a bizarre combination of high concept sci-fi and half-assed attempts at fanwanking.

Not to mention, the premise of the whole Mai x Trunks thing is kind of odd. She's older than his mom ffs.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 05:04:39 PM by gedata »

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2016, 05:22:49 PM »
Oh the whole thing has been ****ing horrible.  What made Dragon Ball fun got eliminated in Z, and what made Z fun has been eliminated in Dragon Ball Super.  The only interesting thing about Super is that, on at least a couple of occasions so far, the good guys haven't actually "won" anything, which is kind of new.  Ignoring the tournament arc (which is full of so much bullshit I don't even know where to begin):

-Goku never actually beat Beerus and all this did was set up what Beerus and Whis have in mind for the rest of the story arcs.
-Frieza won, but Whis gave them a "do-over".
-Zamasu won, but was eliminated along with the entire universe he corrupted by Zen-oh-sama.
-Arale kicked everybody's ass because Arale is, was, and always will be Toriyama's favorite character.

(The last one doesn't count as an arc, it is just an inevitability)

And this sort of brings up the main problem with Super so far:  there are no consequences.  In Z you didn't know what was going to happen.  Sure, the Dragon Balls could fix some problems, but there were rules about them.  Those rules are mostly out the window now.  Now you have too many literal Deus Ex Machinas running amok that can fix things without any struggle at all.  Beerus himself can defeat any villain (if he feels like it), Whis can turn back time (despite it being a grave crime), and the Earth Dragon Balls are now capable of granting three wishes and are no longer limited by death rules.  Add in the already annoying Senzu Bean, which previously was hard to grow and very infrequent and now abundant because they need them for plot reasons, and virtually nothing bad can happen in Dragon Ball that can't be fixed, and that's before we get to those Super Dragon Balls, but thankfully those seem to be rather difficult for anybody to use with any kind of regularity.

The only other good thing about Super is that I actually like Beerus.  He is what I would expect a God (not God, mind you, but "a" God) to act like.  Immortal, apathetic, temperamental, easily bored, and a selfish jerkass.  He looks like an Egyptian God and acts like every Greek God I've ever read mythology on.  His rant against Gotenks in episode 4 or 5 about pudding, of all things, is kind of the Douglas Adams interpretation of immortal beings (most are born with an innate ability to deal with immortality and boredom; Beerus was clearly not).  Thus, I find him interesting, and his comic relief moments usually make sense from the context of his immortality.

Every other character is uninteresting and annoying as hell.  Worse, I think just about every regular Z character has somehow become even stupider than they were before.  Not that Dragon Ball has ever had characters with a shit ton of logic to them, but now things are just straight imbecilic.  The characters haven't changed one iota, the stakes have not increased because the risks are now nonexistent, and the scale of "power levels", which was supposed to be minimized or eliminated (which is what Toriyama was trying to do with BoG) is now at the most confusing and ridiculous that it ever has been.

tl;dr - shit sucks, Beerus is a bro, blatant money grab is blatant.
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Offline IKone152

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2016, 01:42:16 AM »
I agree with you

Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2016, 07:16:25 PM »
70:

Yamcha finally got his biggest moment ever since.......I guess that time where he beat up the invisible guy in Urunai Baba's tournament? Even now though, the series can't help but ruthlessly bully him the whole way through. He even had his chance to show up Vegeta, the man who not only had his pet killed him, but stole the love of his life. Vegeta literally had him beat at his own game, or at least he would've if Champa had any idea what he was doing.

Speaking of Bulma, maybe she finally feels a twinge of regret for not going after the literal super athlete and instead going for jobless, violent meathead with the worst temper in the universe. That's the sort of decision no sane person who isn't rich would make.

Honestly, holding any sporting event between people that can circle the planet 100s of times over in a second and casually destroy galaxies by farting on them is probably a bad idea, but it made for a fun watch tbh.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2016, 01:29:49 AM »
I have not and never will like Vegeta.  His past is not something you can gloss over just because he's banging the series' lead chick and has an adorable moppet for a son.  Hell, I might be able to forget his past if he wasn't also the biggest ****ing moron in the entire series.  At least half of the problems that crop up are because he didn't have the common sense to just not be stupid for five seconds.  Shit, everything he's done since showing up is one gigantic Vegeta ****up fest after another, but he's pushed forward as some kind of "combat genius" and that his imbecilic "Saiyan pride" bullshit is some kind of admirable trait.

But to top it off, no he didn't beat Yamcha at baseball.  Since he doesn't understand the rules of baseball, he completely ****s up a routine tag play.  Vados says Champa is obstructing and that allows Yamcha the base (which is true), but even she missed the most fundamental rule of a tag play:  you have to tag the player WITH THE BALL (or your glove holding the ball).  Vegeta just elbows him.  That doesn't count as a tag.
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Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2017, 03:12:56 AM »
73:

Ye gods.  I've come to realize that pretty much all of Dragon Ball Super is loaded with 'Member Berries.

"Hey!  'Member kaioken?"
"'Member Future Trunks?"
"'Member Great Saiyaman?"

Tell me one thing that has been done so far in Super that isn't a rehash of something we haven't already seen.  New characters?  Sure.  God ki?  Why not.  Everything else?  Nope.  They are doing their damnedest not to come up with anything new here, and while I can tolerate that for filler, it didn't dawn on me until now just how much the actual arcs and plots are full of NOTHING NEW.
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Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2017, 03:56:33 PM »
73:

Ye gods.  I've come to realize that pretty much all of Dragon Ball Super is loaded with 'Member Berries.

"Hey!  'Member kaioken?"
"'Member Future Trunks?"
"'Member Great Saiyaman?"

Tell me one thing that has been done so far in Super that isn't a rehash of something we haven't already seen.  New characters?  Sure.  God ki?  Why not.  Everything else?  Nope.  They are doing their damnedest not to come up with anything new here, and while I can tolerate that for filler, it didn't dawn on me until now just how much the actual arcs and plots are full of NOTHING NEW.

There are the 11 other Universes but those have only been used to set up a tournament and another that'll start next month.

Saying that their nothing new is a bit unfair though. Sure this series is banking a lot on nostalgia (let's face it, that's the only reason you and I are here) but it's at least been taking old characters and concepts into some newish directions even if said directions suck ass (bringing back Vegito just to nerf him, the whole Future Trunks arc in general).

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 11:19:40 PM »
Yeah, but look at the promotional material for the 11 universes arc.  ****ING ANDROID 17 IS IN THERE. SE-VEN-TEEEEEEEEEEEN!  What the **** is he doing there?

Hell, I'm just going to list them all:

Battle of Gods arc is mostly new stuff, though most of that was shown in the film.  The idea that brought this to life from Toriyama's mind was to finally find a way to eliminate power levels.  He ends up failing miserably.  The then throws Emperor Pilaf and the gang into the movie and arc for reasons that are way beyond anybody to comprehend.  Meeeeeember?

Ressurection F arc is one giant member berry.  'Member Frieza?  'Member Captain Ginyu? 'Member Vegeta was a bad guy?  'Member killing Krillin?  Nothing of note happens in this arc except the debut of Super Cyan, an ability that still doesn't make any ****ing sense except to turn their auras blue.  Whis bails everybody out with a cheat / hax.  There is nothing significant here, no consequences.  This arc may as well not happened.

Universe 6 arc - 'Member Piccolo's stuff?  'Member Galick Gun?  'Member Final Flash?  'Member Vegeta jobbing to everybody so Goku can win the big fight?  'Member Kaiohken?  Hit is introduced, becoming as immediate a threat as immediately not.  I thought the Universe 6 fighters were interesting overall, though having the U6 Frieza still be a douche was just obnoxious, even if he was clever.  I thought this arc might be full of cleverness, and it kind of was for a couple of the U6 fighters, but then you had Cabbe, who was so ****ing pointless and retarded.  At least this arc tried.  Oh wait, I forgot one:  'Member Mr. Satan being useless but someone professing he's strong as shit so he gets into comical situations?  Yeah, this arc had Monaka, too.  Almost didn't 'Member dat.

Potaufeu Arc is mostly a joke filler arc, so I don't care about it much, but I could claim that some of the stuff there is a 'Member berry to Dragonball GT, which is weird, although Pan existing still validates GT a bit.  Could also be a Majin Vegeta 'Member berry.

Future Trunks arc is full of them.  Future Trunks alone is one, Vegito is another, but at least the Goku Black story arc was interesting until we found out who it was, then it was idiotic.  The only thing more idiotic was the way this arc ended.

This current bullshit has Yamcha playing baseball, Arale showing up for no reason, and Great Saiyaman.  Hit shows up again to be turned into a greater threat than he was before only to be once again neutered by Goku.  So now they're 'Member berry'ing stuff that happened just two arcs ago.

Yes, nostalgia brought us back, but I'm not here to watch nostalgia I'm here to watch new shit and have some fun with it.  We're getting some new shit, loaded with all old shit because nobody can think of anything new to do with the characters that already exist, and having everything being executed in the most inane way possible.  Yeah, DB Super is shit.
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Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2017, 04:58:52 AM »
Yeah, but look at the promotional material for the 11 universes arc.  ****ING ANDROID 17 IS IN THERE. SE-VEN-TEEEEEEEEEEEN!  What the **** is he doing there?

Honestly with someone like 17, my 1st question is "wtf isn't he here right now?" since his absence is never actually explained

Generally speaking, I don't mind call backs as a whole. It's just that when they feel like excuses to do literally nothing new or worthwhile like in Resurrection F or as a gateway torwards  stupid retcons

Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2017, 12:16:11 PM »
74:

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2017, 05:13:14 AM »
79:

I will say one thing:  one of Toriyama's stated goals for Super was to eliminate the obnoxious power level creep that dominated to a fault the latter half of his Dragonball manga, to a point of ridiculousness that even he started to acknowledge with the events of Battle of the Gods.  Of course, he never wanted to do anything beyond Cell in the first place, and just let things go silly almost as a way of mocking what it is that his manga had become.  Buu, in a way, represents everything that was right and wrong with his story:  a childish innocence belying a horrible evil.  Regardless, after the God ki power up and Super Cyan, he hasn't had the characters change or improve in a remarkable way for a long time now.  The concept of power increases is mostly gone.  Aside form catching the old guard up, Goku is pretty much capped in terms of power ups.  You're not going to get Super Cyan 2.  At best you'll get him doing the Kaioken thing with his Super Saiyan Blue, or the Vegitto fusion using Blue, or something.  Power ups will come from technique manipulation and other "ace in the hole" moves, which was what Dragonball was mostly about until Z killed that noise.

Or at least I hope so.  Goku has heretofore not really trained much in the same fashion since the Frieza Member Berry story arc, nor has Vegeta.  They is what they is at this point.

And I say this because here's Buu doing his thing, and the biggest reveal was that none of the U7 guys could sense how strong the U9 guys were, which brings the matches into an area of unfamiliarity we haven't seen in a while.  One of the stupider things about the power creep phenomenon was how the newly powered up character, usually Goku, instantaneously knew they could just curb stomp someone, or take a big hit, or whatever, without any kind of problem because they could just sense the energy difference.  With that out the window, now they have to be careful.

But that doesn't provide much fun when a curbstomp battle happens anyway.  Buu just takes all the hits, enjoying life like the fat tub of retard he is, because that's just how shit goes.  Eliminating the power sensing didn't eliminate the ****ing stupid, which I wanted to roll my eyes at hard.  On another note, I don't think I've ever head Buu talk this much.  The actor almost couldn't stay in character because of it.
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Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2017, 01:57:39 AM »
86:

The formal reintroduction of Android 17 has some people up in arms, seeing a show 17 is apparently strong enough to keep up with Goku in SSB.  I'm not sure why anybody is surprised by this, seeing as how, as I mentioned in the last post, Toiryama wanted to eliminate the power creep that has plagued Dragonball for all of "Z".  People are forgetting the Androids are humans with cybernetic cellular mods, unlimited power engines, and so on and so forth.  There's no reason 17 or 18 couldn't continue to get stronger.  If Frieza can accomplish a lot in 4 months of training, so can they, and they were already stronger than Frieza.  18 just has no reason to do so, while 17 appears to at least have the desire, even if his motivations are no longer unwholesome.

The big irk here is introducing a heretofore unmentioned Android 17 family, but only teasing us and never showing them.  Part of me thinks it'd be hilarious if 17 ended up with the female version of Krillin, but I'm not sure what that would look or be like.  Adopting two kids is also interesting, because while generations are important to all Toriyama's stories, he always uses the next to surpass the previous (Z was heading, or headed, in that direction as well until Gohan got nerfed for reasons nobody understands).  With Goten, Trunks, Pan, Bra, Uub, Marron, and possibly 17's kids, you have a crowd set up for stories that focuses away from Goku and co and onto the next generation.  Whether they do that or not remains to be seen.

Considering how much ****ing money Goku alone makes Toei, I'd doubt it.
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Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2017, 09:45:59 PM »
91 (or something, I lost count):

I just called Eromanga Sensei stupid, so why am I now posting about Dragonball, which is easily the stupidest written piece of shit of all time?  Well, I guess I kind of expect this to be stupid.  I mean, after hundreds of episodes of Dragonball and Z and even some GT stupidity, I'm not expecting ****ing Shakespeare here now.  I think that there is a certain kind of brilliance to how stupid Dragonball can be.  It takes a lot of hard work and dedication to write such imbecilic plot lines and filler episodes, that I almost have to admit that it takes a genius level intellect to pull off.  So, in irony, Dragonball is actually the smartest manga / anime ever written.

There, that sets the universe right again.

Because, boy do they work hard at stupid in this shit.  Everybody is already spoilered on what is going to happen with Buu and who his replacement is going to be, but beyond that, this episode just oozed stupidity everywhere.  I don't know how much I should be cringing over the battle idol scene, because Toei put so much effort into that you can tell someone there missed making Pretty Cure.  At the same time... yeah I want to ****ing see a magical girl take on these Z fighters.  Why the **** not?  Magic, ain't gotta 'splain shit and all that.  Historically special powers have always trumped "power levels", so sure, have at 'em.  Turn into your pudgy as **** magical girl self and "Befriend" Goku, Nanoha style.  Please!  Make this stupidly interesting again!
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Offline Rei

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2017, 02:19:58 AM »
That's harsh, weren't Dragon Ball early chapters "consciously stupid" rather than stupid because of the writing level (who was not this bad, actually, since there were well-timed/called jokes). Not saying it was intelligent.

The PreCure reference: did the people making Super previously work on certain Pretty Cure shows?

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2017, 02:33:09 PM »
No, I think what I mean is how the writers or the original author have to make things illogical and make the characters do stupid or inefficient things just to keep the plot moving.  Or, in this case, to drag out a filler arc as long as possible until the manga catches up to the anime.  That part at the end is precisely apt.  Goku, knowing he needs to get to Mr. Satan's place in a hurry, decides to fly there.  Not instant transmission, fly.  Why?  Because it pads a few more minutes into the next episode watching Goku fly there.  It might also force a distraction on him along the way.

On the other hand, he could just teleport over there and save us all time.  Nope.
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Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2017, 03:37:10 AM »
92:

I mean, Toei spoilered this shit a while ago to anybody paying attention, but it does actually draw up some interest to me.  If you think about it, it makes perfect sense.  Freiza has as much reason to continue wanting to exist as anybody else, though considering his personal Hell he's been going through, maybe nonexistence is preferable.  Makes me wonder why they just don't go the whole nine yards and bust out Cell.  I know, don't give them ideas. They've already busted out every other 'Member Berry.

I'm also not one of those people who usually gives two shits about what gets the fans all riled up and frothing, but even I can't explain away this one.  Retcons are usually pretty stupid, but sometimes they serve a valuable purpose depending on whether the authors use it to do something interesting or cool, or to take things in a new direction.  One of the most iconic moments in any anime history is the initial Super Saiyan transformation by Goku.  It was built up for a long time that someone was going to become a Super Saiyan, but nobody really knew what it meant.  Some images had given us an idea, but it wasn't really specific.  The golden spiked up hair and green eyes, which have become synonymous with amazing accomplishments, has since been over used and pissed on to the point of becoming hilarious.  I mean, first Trunks shows up and does it, but he's from the future, so it makes sense that someone else would learn the technique eventually; then Vegeta shows up after somehow miraculously (read: plot conveniently) becoming one just in time to help fight the androids, but Vegeta was probably always destined for it, so that's okay, too; then Goku trains Gohan to transform, which is also fine because Goku had plans to make Gohan the ultimate weapon, so it works; then things start to get silly with "Full Power Saiyan" and then "Super Saiyan 2" and finally "Super Saiyan 3", because instead of coming up with new and interesting shit, the iconography of the SS transformation was just required; then Goten just "does it" because why the **** not have another Goku offspring do it, and now we're pissing on the legacy of the whole thing.  I'm not going to bother with SS4, because that's GT which is now mostly non canon.

Super hasn't been kind to the Super Saiyan transformation either, what with SS3 being no match for Beerus, now relegating the transformation to the annals of history and forgotten about going forward.  Oh oops, we had to bring it back in Blue form because that's how they transform into God energy without the ritual.  Right.  Okay.  Also, Vegeta, for no ****ing reason whatsoever, is going to teach a Universe 6 Saiyan how to go Super Saiyan, because I don't ****ing know.  Why in the hell would Vegeta give his opponent a chance to defeat him?  Teaching the SS technique to someone else while you're fighting them seems really stupid.  Of course, Vegeta just goes Blue and kicks Cabba's ass anyway, so aside from giving the U6 monkey false hope, what was the point of this again?  Furthermore, why was Cabba there if he wasn't even on par with any of the other fighters who easily stood up to SS form Goku and Vegeta?  He was easily the weakest there, even more than Frost.  Ah **** it.  Now, of course, we get Cabba recklessly teaching other monkeys how to transform as a carrot on a stick to lure them into battle, and from this apparently we're going to get U6 Female Brolly, who is heretofore not canon, but they want to have their cake and eat it, too (Brolly is still not canon, so here's Femm-Brolly!).

And it all comes down to a tingly sensation in the middle of a Saiyan's back.  What in the dog ****ing what?  Wasn't it about unleashing a torrent of anger (Goku at Krillin's death, Vegeta and his rage over being second best, Gohan was trained this way, even Cabba was taught this method by Vegeta, and Goten.... just ****ing did it because why not)?  I mean, the concept of power spots on the body and chakkras isn't unknown to me and the story Dragonball takes a lot of influence from has Indian and Chinese concepts of "chi" behind it, but... what ****ing spot is in the middle of the shoulder blades?  The closest is the chakkra of love which is located in the heart area (appropriately), but SS isn't about love, it is about anger.  Plus the color associated with it is green, not gold.  Gold is associated with the chakkra of power, which is located in the upper stomach area.  How is making your upper spinal column all tingly going to transform you into a golden haired, green eyed monkey?

Ah **** it!
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Offline The Big Guy

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2017, 12:35:20 AM »
Quote
And it all comes down to a tingly sensation in the middle of a Saiyan's back.  What in the dog ****ing what?  Wasn't it about unleashing a torrent of anger (Goku at Krillin's death, Vegeta and his rage over being second best, Gohan was trained this way, even Cabba was taught this method by Vegeta, and Goten.... just ****ing did it because why not)?  I mean, the concept of power spots on the body and chakkras isn't unknown to me and the story Dragonball takes a lot of influence from has Indian and Chinese concepts of "chi" behind it, but... what ****ing spot is in the middle of the shoulder blades?  The closest is the chakkra of love which is located in the heart area (appropriately), but SS isn't about love, it is about anger.  Plus the color associated with it is green, not gold.  Gold is associated with the chakkra of power, which is located in the upper stomach area.  How is making your upper spinal column all tingly going to transform you into a golden haired, green eyed monkey?

It's the same lazy storytelling that ruined Star Wars for a generation, for the story to progress quickly for these side characters we need a simple way of advancing the plot without getting trapped in lengthy exposition or training montages. For Star Wars, they needed a reason for Qui-Gon to bring Anakin along as a potential Jedi, so they quantified his potential as a large Midichlorian count rather than showing us his vast potential throughout the movie (I guess pod-racing took priority). In Super, they didn't want to spend a large amount of time on training the new Saiyans but didn't want to skip it either (to fully introduce Female Broly), so tingly back was introduced (I guess easily resolved stupid subplots like Goku lying about the prize took priority). The more I think about it, the less I'm happy with it.
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Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2017, 08:48:38 AM »
Equally baffling is how Cabba is literally the 1st Super Saiyan to exist in his universe despite it being far easier for them to access the form than it was for most of the U7 saiyans. He had no idea the form existed before meeting Vegeta, the guy who at least was aware of some vague legend before being able to go gold himself.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2017, 12:01:13 PM »
93:

And there's Fem-Brolly, who apparently gets awakened not by the power of anger, nor a tingly sensation in the middle back, but by being jealous and pathetically sad.  I don't know what the **** to think about that, or how that is supposed to make me feel about Brolly now.  All I know is that Vegeta's dub quote about Super Saiyanness being a "bargain sale" is pretty ****ing apt at the moment.

Also, Goku really is the worst thing for the universe.  He's easily manipulated into bringing back Frieza because of Goku's insatiable desire to constantly fight strong people.  Goku is just the worst and stupidest character in anime history.
I'm just like you, only smarterô.

Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2017, 12:16:33 AM »
93:

Spoiler for Hiden:
Really makes you think.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 12:33:55 AM by gedata »

Offline ckarasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2017, 11:47:40 PM »
93:

And there's Fem-Brolly, who apparently gets awakened not by the power of anger, nor a tingly sensation in the middle back, but by being jealous and pathetically sad.  I don't know what the **** to think about that, or how that is supposed to make me feel about Brolly now.  All I know is that Vegeta's dub quote about Super Saiyanness being a "bargain sale" is pretty ****ing apt at the moment.

Also, Goku really is the worst thing for the universe.  He's easily manipulated into bringing back Frieza because of Goku's insatiable desire to constantly fight strong people.  Goku is just the worst and stupidest character in anime history.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it impossible to revive Freeza with Earth's Dragon Balls? I recall Dende being unable to fix the whole "only be revived once" clause, and Freeza's already used that one up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2017, 01:06:09 PM »
You want consistency in Dragon Ball?  Boy are you in the wrong ****ing place.

It could also be a moment of genius on Goku's part, because now he can break his promise without taking the blame.  I don't know if they'll go that far, but whatever.  Maybe they'll use Trunks' healing pow... oh wait that only happens in the manga.
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Offline ckarasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2017, 03:59:52 PM »
You want consistency in Dragon Ball?  Boy are you in the wrong ****ing place.

It could also be a moment of genius on Goku's part, because now he can break his promise without taking the blame.  I don't know if they'll go that far, but whatever.  Maybe they'll use Trunks' healing pow... oh wait that only happens in the manga.

I want to say that it at least seemed important that Freeza chose the Earth DBs instead of the Super DBs. I don't think they've forgotten that RoF happened, either. But who knows?

I've been enjoying Super, for the most part, but it's clear that old DB(especially OG DB) was the peak of the series. Jackie Chun vs Goku was one of the more fun and interesting fights in the series, and I've yet to see anything top it so far.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2017, 12:36:25 PM »
93:

And there's Fem-Brolly, who apparently gets awakened not by the power of anger, nor a tingly sensation in the middle back, but by being jealous and pathetically sad.  I don't know what the **** to think about that, or how that is supposed to make me feel about Brolly now.  All I know is that Vegeta's dub quote about Super Saiyanness being a "bargain sale" is pretty ****ing apt at the moment.

Also, Goku really is the worst thing for the universe.  He's easily manipulated into bringing back Frieza because of Goku's insatiable desire to constantly fight strong people.  Goku is just the worst and stupidest character in anime history.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it impossible to revive Freeza with Earth's Dragon Balls? I recall Dende being unable to fix the whole "only be revived once" clause, and Freeza's already used that one up.
If they actually remember that rule and it comes back to bite then that'll make for a good laugh.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2017, 05:38:28 AM »
I recall Dende being unable to fix the whole "only be revived once" clause.
Didn't he? I was certain that Dende's rejuvenation of the DBs not only expanded the maximum amount of wishes but also removed this limitation, leading to Goku's refusal to be resurrected (I don't have my books with me, but I just checked the anime's first version and it does say that.)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2017, 10:39:09 AM »
I recall Dende being unable to fix the whole "only be revived once" clause.
Didn't he? I was certain that Dende's rejuvenation of the DBs not only expanded the maximum amount of wishes but also removed this limitation, leading to Goku's refusal to be resurrected (I don't have my books with me, but I just checked the anime's first version and it does say that.)

He didn't. At least that much was never stated. The dragpm was upgraded for more wishes and that's it as far as we know.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2017, 03:14:36 PM »
Yeah, but the rules of the dragon are funky and weird.  Vegeta has been wished back by the Earth dragon twice.  Once as part of the wish to "revive everyone Frieza had killed", which brought back the Namekians, including the Elder and the Namekian Dragon Balls, and Vegeta.  He was then brought back later by Dende's dragon after blowing himself up to stop Majin Buu.  Actually, I think he was revived twice in the Buu arc alone.  Krillin, and everybody else on Earth, are also killed during Kid Buu's rage, and were all subsequently brought back, even though Krillin has already been brought back by Earth's dragon once (Krillin's second death was reversed by the Namekian dragon).  I'm not sure on Piccolo.  I know he was restored by the Namekian dragon once and by the Earth dragon after Kid Buu blows up the Earth, but while he's gotten his ass kicked numerous times and nearly died in those instances, I can't remember Piccolo dying again.  I know Chaotzu is in the same category as Krillin and I think Tien as well.

Goku was brought back to fight the Saiyans, then didn't die again until Cell, was brought back for the World Tournament by Baba for a day (similar to what they're doing now with Frieza), and then was permanently restored by the Old Kai sacrificing himself to Goku could be restored.  I don't think Goku has died since.  So, yes, they're consistent with Goku, just not everybody else.
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Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2017, 08:21:31 PM »
Yeah, but the rules of the dragon are funky and weird.  Vegeta has been wished back by the Earth dragon twice.  Once as part of the wish to "revive everyone Frieza had killed", which brought back the Namekians, including the Elder and the Namekian Dragon Balls, and Vegeta.  He was then brought back later by Dende's dragon after blowing himself up to stop Majin Buu.  Actually, I think he was revived twice in the Buu arc alone.  Krillin, and everybody else on Earth, are also killed during Kid Buu's rage, and were all subsequently brought back, even though Krillin has already been brought back by Earth's dragon once (Krillin's second death was reversed by the Namekian dragon).  I'm not sure on Piccolo.  I know he was restored by the Namekian dragon once and by the Earth dragon after Kid Buu blows up the Earth, but while he's gotten his ass kicked numerous times and nearly died in those instances, I can't remember Piccolo dying again.  I know Chaotzu is in the same category as Krillin and I think Tien as well.

Goku was brought back to fight the Saiyans, then didn't die again until Cell, was brought back for the World Tournament by Baba for a day (similar to what they're doing now with Frieza), and then was permanently restored by the Old Kai sacrificing himself to Goku could be restored.  I don't think Goku has died since.  So, yes, they're consistent with Goku, just not everybody else.

I remember an upgraded Porunga brought back the Earth and all of it's inhabitants near the end of the Majin Buu arc and not Shenron (there was no Earth before the wishes were made, and thus no Earth Dragon Balls). This means that Vegeta, Krillin, Piccolo and Chiaotzu were all brought back by Shenron only once, and revived by Porunga for their other death(s).

So yeah, the series has been pretty consistent with Shenron's "you only get one" rule thus far.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2017, 01:58:37 AM »
Vegeta has been wished back by the Earth dragon twice.  Once as part of the wish to "revive everyone Frieza had killed", which brought back the Namekians, including the Elder and the Namekian Dragon Balls, and Vegeta.  He was then brought back later by Dende's dragon after blowing himself up to stop Majin Buu.  Actually, I think he was revived twice in the Buu arc alone.
1. Resurrected on Namek through the wish you mentioned (using the Earth set).
2. After his sacrifice, he was temporarily sent back to Earth by Enma-oh to stop BŻ, but as a dead man led by Baba. Then he fuses with the living Goku.
3. After Goku failed to win over BŻ on the KaiŰ Shin planet, Bejita sets his plan in motion: it's then that Dende goes to the new Namek planet and asks Polunga to "resurrect the not evil people who died on Earth following the arrival of Babidi & co." (so that Babidi and his crew wouldn't come back to life but Bejita's own victims would, if I remember well).  Bejita subsequently loses his aureole, thus proving once more that he really wasn't his old-self anymore.


Sorry for my english and the bad wording of the wish.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2017, 11:20:13 AM »
95:

Okay, now I'm back into it.  Frieza being consistently evil and now becoming the wild card for the events of the tournament makes this now interesting.  Very very interesting.

I know the power scaling is all ****ed up in Super, which I am actually fine with because now it makes everything unpredictable, but having Frieza nix a God of Destruction's "hakai" powers is kind of a "hah?" moment.  Whis dropped a bomb on us that not all Gods of Destruction are on equal power levels, which I guess shouldn't be a surprise, so it is possible that Sidora is just not that strong or that not coming directly from a God of Destruction meant it didn't have as much "oomph", but still.  If the Gods aren't going to be the ultimate barometer to keep the power scaling under control, then that means eventually even Zen-Oh-sama is going to be overcome by someone, who will somehow be stronger than the creator of all living things, which just seems like we're in fanfiction level of obnoxious.

Of course, if you read the manga, you'd know that Goku now somehow can do a variant of the "hakai" powers of a God of Destruction himself, which is.... I don't even ****ing know anymore.  I always figured one day the point of having Beerus was for Goku or someone to eventually surpass him and become the new God of Destruction, but jeeeeeezus.  Goku's "mary sue"ness is approaching intolerable levels.
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Offline ckarasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2017, 01:06:30 AM »
95:

Okay, now I'm back into it.  Frieza being consistently evil and now becoming the wild card for the events of the tournament makes this now interesting.  Very very interesting.

I know the power scaling is all ****ed up in Super, which I am actually fine with because now it makes everything unpredictable, but having Frieza nix a God of Destruction's "hakai" powers is kind of a "hah?" moment.  Whis dropped a bomb on us that not all Gods of Destruction are on equal power levels, which I guess shouldn't be a surprise, so it is possible that Sidora is just not that strong or that not coming directly from a God of Destruction meant it didn't have as much "oomph", but still.  If the Gods aren't going to be the ultimate barometer to keep the power scaling under control, then that means eventually even Zen-Oh-sama is going to be overcome by someone, who will somehow be stronger than the creator of all living things, which just seems like we're in fanfiction level of obnoxious.

Of course, if you read the manga, you'd know that Goku now somehow can do a variant of the "hakai" powers of a God of Destruction himself, which is.... I don't even ****ing know anymore.  I always figured one day the point of having Beerus was for Goku or someone to eventually surpass him and become the new God of Destruction, but jeeeeeezus.  Goku's "mary sue"ness is approaching intolerable levels.

The reception to Freeza coming back has been decidedly more positive than in the RoF arc. He feels like he's actually doing something now, so that might be a part of it. Definitely a fan of the recent episode.

I THINK that's unique to the manga. Felt very fanfictiony to give Goku that ability(since Toyotaro is a fanfic author of sorts, I was not too surprised by this). Everyone singing the praises of the manga in the DB community, but it's not much better than the anime. It just looks nicer.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2017, 04:14:27 AM »
Yeah, there was nothing in the Ressurection F film or arc that was worth a shit.  It was a gigantic 'Member Berry for those who wanted to see the Namek fight again, which is what they got (for the most part).  Frieza is evil but also beyond arrogant to the point of stupidity, Ginyu shows up and reminds us he was still alive and does the body swap thing again just in case we forgot, Frieza shows off his remarkably high power level with a final transformation, Goku surprises him and everybody by again going Super Saiyan albeit in a different fashion, and so on and so forth.  The only thing different was Vegeta being alive, also somehow going Super Cyan, and then Frieza actually winning because Saiyans are imbeciles, but everything is okay because you have literal deus ex machinas running amok.

This Frieza feels a lot more like what I was hoping Frieza would do then.  Be deliciously evil, but also intelligent about it, and certainly showing that he is a lot more uncontrollable than Goku thought possible.  Frieza never struck me as a moron.  Overconfident in his abilities and, therefore, complacent perhaps, but to be fair to him nobody he had ever run into had been even close to him in terms of power level (except for maybe members of his own family).  They retconned things so that Frieza was a part time minion of Beerus, and that the Galactic Emperor was also aware of Majin Buu, because why not, but outside of them, he never had a serious challenge.  Regardless, after dying not once, but twice to piss-color auraed space monkeys, you'd think he'd have learned something.  I suppose he did, coming up with the idea of training for four months (ugh), and unlocking the Golden Frieza form, but he was right back to being utterly dumb.  He basically pulled a Wrath of Khan on us, where he had the opportunity to go and rebuild his empire and put together a serious army for whatever plots he wanted, but instead he just chases Goku into the Mutara Nebula (so to speak) and doesn't think three dimensionally.

Anyway, Frieza here seems like an interesting wrinkle, and I hope his plans reach some kind of fruition.  I sincerely do NOT want Frieza redeemed to be another anti-hero for the Z fighters like other former antagonists, but that also means Frieza is going to die again, and maybe "hakai"d so he can't ever be brought back again, because you can't just have the villain win and be running amok out there without Goku and Co stopping him.  It just wouldn't work.

As for the "hakai" thing, I am not going to get into any kind of retarded debate on the manga vs. the anime, because I don't give two shits which one is "canon".  Toei did this to themselves by pushing Super too quickly before the manga could build a lot more head start.  Now we've been stuck in filler hell for a while so that the manga can finally finish up the utterly stupid Black arc.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2017, 02:11:42 PM »
95:

Okay, now I'm back into it.  Frieza being consistently evil and now becoming the wild card for the events of the tournament makes this now interesting.  Very very interesting.

I know the power scaling is all ****ed up in Super, which I am actually fine with because now it makes everything unpredictable, but having Frieza nix a God of Destruction's "hakai" powers is kind of a "hah?" moment.  Whis dropped a bomb on us that not all Gods of Destruction are on equal power levels, which I guess shouldn't be a surprise, so it is possible that Sidora is just not that strong or that not coming directly from a God of Destruction meant it didn't have as much "oomph", but still.  If the Gods aren't going to be the ultimate barometer to keep the power scaling under control, then that means eventually even Zen-Oh-sama is going to be overcome by someone, who will somehow be stronger than the creator of all living things, which just seems like we're in fanfiction level of obnoxious.

I just interpret Freeza getting a handle of Sidra's hakai energy as a sign that not all God's of Destruction are equal in power and that their only considered as powerful relative to the rest of their universe. Universe 9's been portrayed as something of joke so their God of Destruction being among the weaker ones isn't out of the question.


Of course, if you read the manga, you'd know that Goku now somehow can do a variant of the "hakai" powers of a God of Destruction himself, which is.... I don't even ****ing know anymore.  I always figured one day the point of having Beerus was for Goku or someone to eventually surpass him and become the new God of Destruction, but jeeeeeezus.  Goku's "mary sue"ness is approaching intolerable levels.

I'm just thankful that nothing in the manga approaches the same level of awfulness as Trunks' SSRage transformation + Spirit Bomb with the energy of a dozen survivors and a weakened Goku/Vegeta being enough to topple Zamasu. It's not finished yet but Toyotaro would actually have to be trying in order to out bullshit the anime at this point. I'm not sure what Goku's use of the hakai ability means for the manga down the road but it didn't hurt much here since it didn't really amount to anything.

Offline ckarasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2017, 05:46:11 PM »

I'm just thankful that nothing in the manga approaches the same level of awfulness as Trunks' SSRage transformation + Spirit Bomb with the energy of a dozen survivors and a weakened Goku/Vegeta being enough to topple Zamasu. It's not finished yet but Toyotaro would actually have to be trying in order to out bullshit the anime at this point. I'm not sure what Goku's use of the hakai ability means for the manga down the road but it didn't hurt much here since it didn't really amount to anything.

I personally think it's quite harmful(not that the anime hasn't done dumb things, as you've stated). Makes the God of Destruction role look less intimidating if anyone can use that ability. Hell, Freeza only took that blast well because it was someone else using SOME energy from Sidra, IIRC. It also makes Goku look like more of a fanfiction character by him just using it, as well as the typical "Oh wow, that was so dangerous!" cliche right after. It felt like a huge faux pas.

And I do agree with you, TIF. I'm not into the "manga is canon/anime is canon" argument. I follow the anime because I like it more, and if someone likes the manga more then so be it. I just don't like the "manga is better" statements that are coming out, while ignoring the issues the manga has.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2017, 10:41:46 PM »
QUOTE ABUSE!  QUUUUOOOOOTE ABUUUUUSE!
I'm just like you, only smarterô.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2017, 06:47:25 AM »
QUOTE ABUSE!  QUUUUOOOOOTE ABUUUUUSE!

Haha.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2017, 08:32:19 AM »
97:

Okay, here we go!  This started out as utter chaos which is what you'd expect from a battle royal.  Someone at Toei had fun making some 'splosions to cover the battlefield so they didn't have to animate every other fighter moving about at the same time (good call), and though we saw several repeat animation shots (sad), overall it was pretty interesting to see the not main characters doing things. Basil was pretty effective at the start, and the strategies employed by the various characters will be interesting to behold.  I have to think that you're going to get someone with the ol' Kamehameha / Something beam struggle moment to push someone off, but that's for the future, in the meantime we have lots of random bullshit going on.  And, of course, Goku being a ****ing imbecile somehow doesn't come back to bite him in the ass.  Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, anybody else, if they do something careless or stupid, they're taken out, but oh no not Goku.  He has to survive because he's the most important guy.  I did find it interesting that one of the plots involved having a fighter sacrifice themselves to get rid of Goku.  Not a bad plan and it almost worked because Goku is a moron.  We can't have him lose early, though, because there are fights to be had!  Fights we haven't seen yet!  But it would have been really ballsy to have him lose early.  REALLY ballsy.

Of course, they did it in the U6/U7 tournament and a plot induced rule allowed him to come back, so it wouldn't be that ballsy here because they'd do the same damn thing.  Because Goku has to fight the strongest guy.  It just has to happen.  The universes revolve around him.

Anyway, this first episode of the tournament was paced well and a whole lot of stuff happened.  Surely this won't be padded out over the course of two seaso....

"47 minutes left until the tournament (implying all of that shit happened in only one minute)"

...oh God damnit.

*EDIT*

Speaking of Gods and damnit, for a second there, I thought when Zen-Oh-sama(s) pulled out their God tablets that when they selected the defeated fighters, they were going to be erased right there on the spot.  Like, "oh, falling off just puts me on the bench, okay" then BLAM!  Vaporized!  Like, the ultimate whiplash where you think you're okay, but nope!  It would create actual tension!  Like, you can't wish this shit back with the Dragon Balls, Goku!  Watch in terror as you now have to fight for your individual existence in addition to your universe's!

Then they pussied out and just had the sama(s) tracking the defeats.  Lame.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 11:39:01 AM by TypicalIdiotFan »
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Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2017, 11:46:14 PM »

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2017, 03:20:02 AM »
Like I said, several repeat shots, including ones from just a few minutes ago in the episode.  I have to imagine they're still padding and fillering as much as possible for the manga's sake.

Then I remember this is Toei and I remember that they always do this.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2017, 01:20:21 AM »
At least they could have flipped the sides on the previous animation so it would be harder to notice, haha.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2017, 12:47:08 PM »
98:

This episode was a joke.  If you ever wanted an example of why getting ahead of the manga source material was bad, I give you Universe 9.  U9 was introduced during the filler arcs between the end of the Black / Zamasu arc and the Tournament of Power arc.  We know the ToP arc is canonical because the manga is heading that direction as well.  The reason Frieza was suddenly introduced as the new 10th man on the roster was because the manga was going to go that direction, and the anime had to scramble to catch up in a jarring bit of convenience.  So why was U9 eliminated in one episode?  Because they're not ****ing supposed to be there.  Either U9 was not in Toriyama's plans in the first place (that is, it wasn't one of the universes up for elimination) or the characters from U9 weren't the ones Toriyama had in mind and were all filler created nobodies that weren't intended to be the threats they were perceived to be.

To wit, not more than twenty episodes ago, U9's Trio De Dangers were a significantly larger threat to Goku, Gohan, and Buu than they are here.  In fact, Bergamo alone took on Super Saiyan Blue Goku and fought him rather well.  Now?  Nah.  We have to get rid of these guys, so we're going to make them look like chumps.  Never mind that Basil eliminated a U4 fighter himself, which now makes U4 look pathetic, but all it takes in this Tournament of Power, which is supposed to showcase the strongest fighters in the universes, is two Saiyans from U7 because they're the ****ing heroes.

The whole thing was bullshit from start to finish.
-Goku puts up a glowy white barrier thingy so he can't be poisoned.  Nobody bothers to explain what would happen if he breathed in the gas, because that's not important, even though Gohan was blinded by a jet in his face before.  Heretofore Goku has NEVER DEMONSTRATED that he has the ability to put up an impregnable force field designed to stop biological attacks (except for in the above Webm file that shows him doing it for no reason against guys whose abilities he has no knowledge of), but because Lavender's poison is actually a threat to everybody, they had to eliminate his ability to be useful at all.  Actually, this entire episode was about negating the importance of special moves and attacks.

-Bergamo's ability was to absorb enemy power and become stronger and larger.  Doesn't use it once.

-Basil does practically nothing.

-Hysopp's ability is to freeze someone "to the bone".  Oh nevermind, Vegeta can just power through it.

-Another dude's ability is to shoot spiderwebs at enemies to immobiliz... oh wait Vegeta is just really strong.

-Catwoman has razor claws that can slide open skin easi... oh wait, we don't show blood anymore, so the force field barrier will stop that, too.  Except she also slices Lavender, who also doesn't bleed.

-Lizardman has the ability to absorb shocks and feel no damage from it, but apparently he can easily be blown away with a quick Super Saiyan energy blast.

-Batman... I don't know what Batman can do.  Except eliminate himself by being so afraid of Frieza that he risks his own erasure.

-Bunnygirl gets eliminated off camera.

-Who was their 10th fighter?

The good was that the U9 team was erased quickly and without mercy by Zen-Oh-Sama, which was a legitimately horrifying moment, or should have been, but aside from the narrator mentioning how horrible it was, it didn't look like anybody cared.  Goku and Vegeta were just single-handedly responsible for the elimination of BILLIONS of living creatures.  While you can pass the buck and say "Zen-Oh-Sama did it" or that "they had no choice; eliminate or be eliminated" or "my dry cleaning still has gravy stains on it", there is still a moral implication to all of this that is not being explored.  That the U9 angel had a little smirk at the end there, should reveal that there is something far more sinister to all of this, way beyond simply a god of everything being a god of everything.  They are fighting a divine equivalent of the Roman Colosseum where they are the Christians and the lions, and it doesn't seem like whomever wins will come out of it without being party to the murder of trillions of other universe lives.  Nobody has questioned Zen-Oh-Sama and what he's doing, and this goes back to why Goku has been evil in this case.  Goku just wants to fight strong guys; his selfish desires used to only be self destructive, but have gotten increasingly more involving to other people as it has gone on.  His family, his world, his universe, OTHER UNIVERSES, there is no end to the devil may care attitude he takes just so he can fulfill his own lust for combat.  However, Goku has no concern over the other universes and their well beings; Goku has no desire to confront Zen-Oh-Sama about how evil this tournament is, which amounts to dancing like puppets on the palm of the ultimate God; Goku has no desire to even work together with his own universe teammates to keep themselves alive, instead favoring his own indulgence in fighting the "strong guys".

While people can excuse Goku's behavior as his typical childish innocence or powerlessness insofar as being in the face of the Gods, that doesn't excuse his overall behavior in this.  We don't know if Zen-Oh-Sama was really going to eliminate the other universes, and if he was, whether he was going to do it anytime soon.  To the ultimate God, what is a day, or an eon?  Maybe they do get erased some day, even if the rationale behind who stays and who goes is obnoxiously vague to the audience, and maybe by doing this he has given one of these universes a "fighting chance", but the reality is that instead of standing up and telling Zen-Oh-Sama, someone who apparently likes Goku and is willing to listen to him, that this is wrong, Goku goes along with it as if the ultimate God did him a favor.

I can't excuse Goku in any of this, and it is no surprise the other universes hate his guts.  I can't agree with anything Goku has done in this entire arc, or even the entire Super version of Dragonball.  It is almost as if his child-like nature was never a good thing in the first place, but he's gotten so much worse it makes him seem more alien than he already is.
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Offline ckarasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2017, 09:27:44 AM »
TIF, I hate to break it to you, but the manga is not the source anymore. Even Toyotaro, the person making the manga, has basically said as much. They're sister works, essentially, and have their own differences. Both are working off of the same outline, and have their own direction for the most part.

This is not to discredit your other complaints, because they still apply. It's just that the manga being the source is a misunderstanding of the dynamic between the two media. Toriyama is now just indirectly involved in the series on both ends, and is letting Toei and Toyotaro do their own things with the anime and manga, respectively.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2017, 09:09:54 PM »
But there are limits.  The anime isn't going to permanently kill off characters, while the manga probably could.  Just look at the differences in how certain arcs have been handled.  I'm not saying Toyotaro's versions are better, but they seem to take more risks (read: more bullshit).  The anime is playing it about as safe and milquetoast as can possibly be.  So it can't have U9 being big players when they're not part of the grand scheme of Toriyama's design.

I would wager even money that at some point during this ToP, Goku does the 'perfect Blue' thing he did in the manga Zamasu arc rather than the 10x Kaioken + Blue.  Both of them are basically Goku's new "max power", the thing that sets him apart from Vegeta, and all his rivals, but the anime doesn't appear to know what the **** to do with power creeps and borrows a lot more from the manga than the other way around.  Goku is also going to "hakai" someone here in this tournament.
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Offline ckarasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2017, 08:26:24 AM »
I honestly do lament the wasted screentime that was U9, but I'm not even sure if Toei or Toriyama is responsible for their jobbing. At the very least, Sidra took things well as he was consigned to oblivion. I'll give U9 that.

Goku cannot Hakai anyone in the tournament. No killing rule is in effect. Not sure WHY, since losers die anyway, but thems the breaks.

Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2017, 03:43:42 PM »
To wit, not more than twenty episodes ago, U9's Trio De Dangers were a significantly larger threat to Goku, Gohan, and Buu than they are here.  In fact, Bergamo alone took on Super Saiyan Blue Goku and fought him rather well.

Goku only used SSBlue to end the fight with Bergamo quickly. He didn't really need it since he clearly had the dude on the ropes here as just a Super Saiyan. As for his ability to expand, it didn't end up being very useful before. While it might have helped clear out some jobbers, some of the tougher dudes like Goku would eventually take advantage of the huge cumbersome target that technique makes him. Still, an offhand mention of this would've made more sense since I can't tell if they forgot or not.

.

While people can excuse Goku's behavior as his typical childish innocence or powerlessness insofar as being in the face of the Gods, that doesn't excuse his overall behavior in this.  We don't know if Zen-Oh-Sama was really going to eliminate the other universes, and if he was, whether he was going to do it anytime soon.  To the ultimate God, what is a day, or an eon?  Maybe they do get erased some day, even if the rationale behind who stays and who goes is obnoxiously vague to the audience, and maybe by doing this he has given one of these universes a "fighting chance", but the reality is that instead of standing up and telling Zen-Oh-Sama, someone who apparently likes Goku and is willing to listen to him, that this is wrong, Goku goes along with it as if the ultimate God did him a favor.
I'd like to think that Goku might have wisened up a little around Zeno after seeing first hand how easy it is for him to annihilate Universes. All it took for Future Zeno to erase Trunk's future was for him to see few unpleasant clouds. Doing anything that would make him seem less cool like ask for mercy could ruin that goodwill easily.

Still, all Goku would have to do convince Zeno is to say that letting all the Universes remain would mean being able to hold the ToP again and make it a new Omniversal tradition.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 03:59:27 PM by gedata »

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2017, 08:34:55 PM »
I don't know.  Bergamo getting huge would, theoretically, make him heavier and harder to move, so pushing him off the platform would be tougher.  Or it would, but undoubtedly they could just Kamehameha + Final Flash him off because reasons anyway.
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Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2017, 01:22:05 AM »
100:

Okay, Berserk Kale was pretty badass.  I enjoyed watching her just plow through everybody, including tanking a Goku SSB Kamehameha like it wasn't even there.  That's the kind of shit that just gets you going.  Is Kale an interesting character?  Nope, but her becoming a real threat to everybody around her, up to and including herself by possibly accidentally killing someone while out of control, made her interesting.

Sadly it was all just a thing to make Jiren look like the ultimate high powered badass they had been building him up to be since the beginning of this arc.  Blargh.  I would have liked Kale to be the ultimate wild card in this, who could have pared down a bunch of the chaff to get to the final fighters to make the battles more interesting rather than chaotic.
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Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2017, 10:15:59 PM »
102:

Holy cow, the online reactions to this episode are ****ing amazing in a bad way.  Toei has not been particularly good at avoiding reusing animation for Dragon Ball Super (not that they haven't done this for almost all their works anyway), and Goku has been an imbecile before for letting people power up so he can enjoy fighting strong guys, but this is the only time where both are not only not worth complaining about, but actually appropriate.  Maybe most Dragon Ball fans have just never been exposed to much anime outside of this one and other shounen battle shit because their ignorance of certain things in this episode shows.  I've been waiting for this episode to come ever since they introduced Brianne back before the tournament started.  Once it was known that a "magical girl" parody was going to participate, I knew this shit was going to happen.  I know most participants here at NHRV are wiser than the average Dragon Ball fan, so I'll explain it for the dummies.

* Brianne and the other two girls are parodies of magical girls.  I'm sure you're familiar with Sailor Moon, and if you are, natch.  If you're not, go look it up.
* Magical girl anime are notorious for reused animations.  In fact, one of the more "fun" things about magical girl shows is when they decide to change the reused animations.  In the case of Sailor Moon, Usagi's transformation would change with each power up she got, usually once or twice a season depending on the circumstances.  Between those power ups, the entire... and I mean ENTIRE... transformation animation would play in each episode.  Occasionally they would do a hurry up or a mesh of her and the other senshi's transformations for time, but regardless, you were going to see the same shit each time.  This is why Helles (U2's GoD) talks about "ritual", because it practically is.  The magical girl transformation is pretty much a sacred rite of every magical girl.  Hell, even some atypical magical girls do this.  It is as much a trope as anything else.  As such, the animation is not going to be re-animated for every episode.  If they did that, they'd be out of money in days.  Animation also gets reused constantly for attacks, for character introductions, and for other nifty things that they just don't want to draw over and over again.
* Goku and everybody being patient with their transformations to complete is also a trope.  Toppo tries to point out that posing is justice, which is fine for Toppo to say because the Pride Troopers are basically parodies of Super Sentai teams (think Power Rangers, etc) which are known for their own transformation sequences at times and, of course, cool poses.  Lots of cool poses.  The Ginyu Force was also a sentai parody, but they were also villains, and could also make Freiza blush doing it, which is why they were hilarious.  It was the gap, dammit, the GAP!  Anyway, the trope in this case is that the aforementioned refused animation sequences were played every episode, and since it took a lot of air-time for a transformation to occur, the "joke" started to form that the villains were just standing there like imbeciles waiting patiently for the girls to finish their power ups.  Actually Sailor Moon lampshaded this one itself by having a villain attack before the "ritual" was finished, which forced Sailor Moon, et al to quickly jump out of their sequence, fully transformed of course, implying that the whole ****ing ritual isn't all that necessary.  But, it is what it is.  So when Android 17 blasted them, it should have been good for a rather ripping laugh.  I did.  I laughed heartily.  Android 17 basically deconstructed the entire magical girl genre with one ki blast.  I thought it was going to be 18 that did it, though, because it just seems like the kind of thing 18 would do, but 17 works just as well.  Anyway, long story short, this isn't just Goku being an idiot, this is just how magical girl transformation sequences go.  Just roll with it.  17 didn't get the memo.
* And what magical girl story wouldn't be complete without a little yuri subtext?  Okay, most magical girl shows don't have this, favoring the standard shojou romance tropes with some handsome guy, but there's enough of it that people should have gotten another ripping laugh from Kakunsa and Vikal's "little moment".  The only thing missing was Vikal calling Kakunsa "oneesama".

Anyway, it was goofy fun.  Vegeta once again comes punch to face with a "gag" character and subconsciously loses, Champa shouting what Beerus muttered was adorable, Frieza literally ignores the love gas because he's so damned evil, and Goku gets bitch slapped.  Fun!
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Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2017, 11:51:22 PM »
103:

I will never understand Dragon Ball physics.  If Botamo's body is supposed to absorb all impact, generally indicating that whatever vector forces act upon his body will have no effect, or that all energy is dispersed uniformly with no single point being significantly effected, or just space magic, then how exactly can Gohan physically lift him up with rapid punches to the same spot?  If you can't push him backwards with a punch, why can you push him UPWARDS with one?  Furthermore, he can't cavort his body or neck enough to shoot someone standing right below him, and his arms apparently can't reach where Gohan was even though we've seen him be able to reach down there before.

Whatever.  At least Gohan got to do something, and Universe 10 is now extinct.  Cus had a much more somber reaction than U9's Angel, whose smirk seemed to betray some misdeeding going on here.
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Offline The Big Guy

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2017, 03:24:47 PM »
Looking at the Dragon Ball wiki page, apparently in the manga Botamo only absorbs damage, not momentum. That's why he can be lifted up, though why Gohan can move him and Vegeta earlier could not is a plot hole regardless. The anime has some dimensional explanation or something that doesn't make sense.
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Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2017, 11:48:34 PM »
As it has been pointed out many times, the manga and anime are doing their own things, despite the same settings.  Next week's episode has Goku going Super Saiyan God again for some ****ing reason, whereas in the manga he and Vegeta have always been turning Super Saiyan God not Super Saiyan Blue.  So why is he turned SSG again?  Who ****ing knows. 
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Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2017, 10:57:55 AM »
103:

I will never understand Dragon Ball physics.  If Botamo's body is supposed to absorb all impact, generally indicating that whatever vector forces act upon his body will have no effect, or that all energy is dispersed uniformly with no single point being significantly effected, or just space magic, then how exactly can Gohan physically lift him up with rapid punches to the same spot?  If you can't push him backwards with a punch, why can you push him UPWARDS with one?  Furthermore, he can't cavort his body or neck enough to shoot someone standing right below him, and his arms apparently can't reach where Gohan was even though we've seen him be able to reach down there before.
Botamo's body is supposed to be able to send impacts to an alternate dimension or something, so this really doesn't make any sense. I guess he just hit Botamo really really hard.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2017, 03:16:18 PM »
108:

This is getting tedious.  What purpose was this episode supposed to serve?  Was it actually supposed to build up Frieza to some kind of betrayal, or at least make people think he might betray everybody?  I can't believe either are true, not after this.  If Frieza was the ultimate wild card for Universe 7, that hand has now been played.  Now that they've teased his betrayal, they can't go through with it.  That's foreshadow writing 101.  Dragonball does this all the ****ing time.  If Character X has some kind of technique that is sure to win, it wont, because it was hyped.  If Character Y is supposed to save the day, he or she wont, because it was expected.  If certain events are supposed to transpire, they wont, because we were told about them ahead of time.  This is how Toriyama, Toei, or whomever, writes their "twists".  Foreshadow the **** out of one thing, then a different thing happens, usually the opposite thing.

So Frieza is not going to betray U7.  He can't.  By having this episode, while in the backs of their minds the other fighters didn't trust him fully, they were not paying attention to him because of the other events going on.  Now they're paying attention to him.  How is he supposed to betray them now?  He just unzipped his fly and showed everybody his nonexistent dong.  Once you (don't) see it, you can't (not) unsee it.  Maybe that's what he wants, as some kind of mental screwjob with everybody?  I don't now.  Considering he was plotting with U9 that was quickly dismissed and forgotten about, who knows what the **** Frieza is up to.  A team-up with Frost would have been interesting.  Him betraying and eliminating Frost is not.

Why?  Because Frost is nothing by himself.  We already knew that from the U6-U7 tournament.  The initial concept of having Frost be the mirror opposite of Frieza, much like the Saiyans of U6 being unlike the U7 ones (and the U6 Earth being stupider than U7 Earth), was actually interesting in a very jarring mind**** kind of way.  Having a likeable Frieza?  Boggles the mind.  They didn't keep it very long, which meant he was just a weaker Frieza, which meant he was not interesting anymore.  They only brought him back for this tournament because they didn't want to create another new character for U6, and so he could be erased by Zen.  Frost served no purpose, inevitably, and the little bit at the beginning of the tournament between them, was a pointless red herring.  Oh wait, there's another of those foreshadowing moments.

And that was Frieza's grand plan?  Fake a battle with Gohan to blast Frost off when he wasn't paying attention?  Yeah, sure, Frieza is a ****er and likes to torment people; build up Frost's hope then crush it.  That's Frieza, I guess.  You have to imagine Frost was probably thinking of betraying Frieza at some point anyway.  It just seems like the dog-and-pony show did more harm to Frieza's character than good.  And what was that nonsense about actually getting rid of Gohan if he wasn't smart enough to figure things out?  He'd have actually kept Frost around if Gohan wasn't willing to participate in the facade?  He'd have openly betrayed them then, making himself a target of all U7 fighters and all the other universe fighters as well?  Frieza isn't that stupid.

So, again, what was the point of this episode?  What has the point been of any of these episodes?  Like I said, watching this is starting to get tedious.
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Offline gedata

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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2017, 08:34:13 PM »
So, again, what was the point of this episode?  What has the point been of any of these episodes?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2017, 02:26:44 PM »
109-110:

I don't even want to discuss these episodes right now, but there's some obligation here, I guess.  Jiren has turned out to be the ultimate badass he was hyped to be, and because of that, Goku had to get a new "form".  Why?  I don't know.  Goku always has to get a new form.  It is just how this ****ing show goes.  No strategies, no skill, just power scales constantly one-upped because that's the only thing they know how to do anymore.  Everybody saw it coming, and now it is here, and the usual DBZ fans who love this shit are sperging out all over the place.  I just find it boring at this point.  How many more aura recolors can they do?  If this and SS God are to be believed, the new, more powerful forms are all CG auras, and with that, as this newest one proves, you can go ****ing apeshit on the color saturation if you want.  That damn thing looked like someone put a bunch of color paint in their mouth then spit it all over the place.  I don't know exactly how much more of this I can take, frankly.  We now have "base form", which most people just call "normal" but because we're in DBZ land it still has to be special to weed out the normies; super saiyan form, which has become less important than base form somehow, SS 2, SS3 (which was skipped by Goku), super saiyan God, super saiyan God super saiyan (aka "blue" or super cyan if you're clever), and super sayan blue with kaioken times whatever scalar value they feel like pulling out of their ass (this week we're up to 20 for no reason other than it is higher than 10 and round numbers are sexy, why not 16 or some prime number?), and now we've got this... whatever they called it "Ultra Instinct" form which is just the stupidest ****ing name but probably something that doesn't translate well.  I don't know what to do with this at this point.  The only benefit to all this shit is that Goku still doesn't win, and in fact still wasn't close to Jiren, and he doesn't know how he did that.  As always, though, they're going to find a way to do that regularly, so it is just a matter of time, and then somehow they'll combine that shit with Super Saiyan form again, to make Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct, and you can see where this goddamn cycle keeps repeating until it is pointless.

And that's where we are, pointlessness.  Even the erasure of the universes and the impending doom to everybody's existence doesn't ****ing matter right now.  There is about as much tension in this tournament as ordering take out, and if we cut to another overblown reaction from the Zen's, I swear I might hurl.  DB Super has somehow become more annoying than Black Clover's main VA, if that were ****ing possible.

There's no story here.  In previous battles, there were risks and consequences, and they were important, and the tension was there.  Beating Frieza was a huge accomplishment because of survival and revenge, beating Cell was a huge accomplishment because of survival and Gohan's development, beating Buu was an accomplishment because we could finally end the damn series.  There has been nothing here since the start of DB S that has any kind of tension at all.  Even Beerus, who I still think is the best part of this whole thing, wasn't really a threat.  He was the closest thing we've got, but inevitably you knew he was going to not blow up the Earth.  Kind of hard to have a series after that.  You also knew Frieza wasn't going to win when he came back, and it took a retarded Deus Ex Machina to stop that from happening anyway.  The Goku Black / Zamasu arc had zero consequence at all for our heroes.  Trunks' timeline is ****ed, but Goku and Vegeta could just go home, plus Zen can just fix everything anyway.

And now this, a tournament arc, which are usually the best or worst parts of Dragonball depending on who you ask, with consequences that nobody cares about, and with the looming wish possibly being the big white out for any consequences that do happen, the only thing left to watch this for is for the creativity in the weird other universe fighters and the big showdown with Jiren, which has sort of already happened.  Now we're going to have another dozen episodes of back to ****ing around.  If they really wanted this to be meaningful, they could have used this as a way to wipe both Goku AND Jiren off the map, making the rest of the playing field more even, which might actually create some fascinating possibilities.  Instead, it is just another power up, and another "Goku is down for a while but will come back more powerful than ever" mini arc that also always happens in Dragonball.

I'm just sick of it.  There is no creativity to this anymore.  Worse, it has become cynical.  It doesn't NEED to be creative because we're all watching it anyway.
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