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Author Topic: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui  (Read 12552 times)

Offline SQA

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2013, 11:49:25 PM »
I do like Munch's "The Scream" quite a lot, but I wouldn't want to see it daily.  In many ways, that's a lot of what WataMote's appeal will be.  There is some relatable aspects to the character, as we've all had anxiety of some form, but the "humor" can really only be of the Dark form.  We're either laughing "at" Tomoko or "at" her situation.  While most comedy has a cruel aspect to it, there are limits that test how cruel it can be. 

I should note that while some of The Big Bang theory is funny, I don't find most of it very humorous.  Sheldon-types, in real life, are just fodder on the intellectual level.  I'd actually have an enjoyable time crushing his sense of reality.  But I'm strange.  (Also, it wouldn't be too hard; that level of egotism isn't all that difficult to break)

On the narcissism aspect, I'd love to take credit for the insight, but I was having a discussion with someone (on another forum) several years ago and it came up.  They had a friend that was almost Hikikomori-like but also the best ego on the planet.  It exists as a subset of a few other things in personality development, but that combination just happens to be one of the weirdest you come across, at first brush.  After some thought, you realize why they can exist, but it doesn't seem like they should.  (You think more Social Anxiety + Paranoia)   If WataMote spends a lot of time using the narcissism for humor, however, it's going to get old & cruel pretty fast.

@Sorrows:

I mentioned back a few comments about the relearning to walk bit.  Obviously, it's a lot more complex than that, but one of the skill sets that has come along with the work is, well, manipulating receptor archetypes in the Brain and outer Nervous System.  I'm willing to chat back and forth about the subject, as I don't want to derail the thread.  Toss me a PM if you're interested.  (Don't worry all, everything is legal!  Hell, pretty much everything is on Amazon, you just need to know what you're up to)

Offline Pebble

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2013, 03:47:32 AM »
The basics of Wisdom is "don't be stupid; if you're being stupid, stop"

Pathetic/stupid/cool/geek/unpopular: very often highly socially determined ideas(Or very possibly I want to think of them as thus just so I can consider them arbitrary and ignore them.).
Ok, so what does that mean? It means that pathetic or stupid are terms defined by their relation to real people on whom this label has been put. This varies from society to society, religion to religion. In addition, since these terms are very abstract notions, there are no limiters on the extent to which you can 'confine' what these terms mean to you. The only thing that really sticks is the negative connotation(though not necessarily) and some kind of relation to the generalised, vague social notion of what pathetic or stupid means. So what stupid means is vague.
Now, if you're divorced/have divorced yourself from these notions of what these terms mean, your thoughts can very well follow this train: "I'm being stupid. I'll stop being stupid. But how do I know once I've successfully stopped being stupid?" If, to that last question, you have no answer, or your answer boils down to something derogatory like 'what other people tell me is stupid', you're screwed. Even better, since there is never any solid meaning to what these mean, there is no solid barrier preventing yourself from associating yourself with these terms and trapping yourself in the characteristic circle of stupid misery which you were trying to escape.
If you find an answer you like, and you're satisfied with, good for you, but unless you inject a dose of doubt into your answer, you're doing introspection wrong. You're just making rationalisations so you can end on the conclusion of "I'm happy".
I think the entire aforementioned argument in all its pointless glory can be adapted to accomodate most other descriptions, like 'being pathetic'.
Conclusion to this long rant: None.
My opinion: People don't need to be happy. Often, people don't want to be happy. In fact, people watch Drama just to make themselves unhappy.

That just happens to be my way of thinking about the schadenfreude debate running around in this thread. Its also why I can't decide what to think about Aku no Hana

I'll close by saying that this is probably the most awesome thread I've ever seen and we're only one episode in.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 05:13:11 AM by Pebble »

Offline KS

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2013, 11:48:50 AM »
This was kind of refreshing in a way.  It's like they took the stock loser hikkikomori male lead and made it a girl instead and while some things remain the same the entire dynamic is totally changed up.  I find this girl highly amusing at the same time as she's down on her luck and just can't get a break though one has to wonder just how much of it is self-inflicted.  It didn't feel like anybody was going out of their way to ignore or treat her shabbily so much as she's just so obsessed with trying to fit in that she ends up sabotaging herself like at the end of the episode.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2013, 02:10:12 AM »
2:

And here is why I can't feel too sorry for Tomoko.  Her friend changed, for better or worse (the friend doesn't seem to be particularly fond of it), but stays the same person she always was.  This allows our heroine a moment of respite getting to enjoy what it is like to actually have someone to be with, someone who likes her for who she is, someone to talk to, and to lean on, if necessary.  But when Tomoko finally blurts out what has been building up inside of her for weeks (that her high school life sucks, but she's trying), instead of being a good friend back, reciprocating the trust, Tomoko literally tunes out when the friend starts relaying her issues.  Why?  Because the friend's issues reveal that her social life in high school is beyond Tomoko's, and she can't deal with that.

This opportunity was huge for our heroine.  It was a way to relating to someone else having troubles, even if the troubles aren't the same.  Troubles AREN'T the same, and if you're only looking to relate with people who do have those kinds of issues, you're going to be lonely a long time.  Meanwhile, if you have a support structure, or at least someone to talk to, don't ****ing lose that opportunity just because you don't think they're on "your level" anymore.  That's shitty.

She brings it on herself, which is, ironically, what her "Yandere Boys" CD is trying to tell her.
I'm just like you, only smarterô.

Offline Fumoffu!!

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2013, 06:21:53 AM »
2:

I cannot handle this show. I'm out.

Offline Pebble

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2013, 11:35:31 AM »
2:

Tomoko. You. Are. A. Dumbass. There is no excuse for this. Tomoko wants to be popular. Tomoko refuses to pick methods that result in her becoming popular. Thats the very definition of irrationality; the one they teach you in the first class of every humanities course.

Why she chooses to reject Yu is beyond me. I'm willing to forgive her not examining herself since I don't believe that really helps. But the choice to zone out as soon as the thought hit her that Yu was living her ideal of the perfect highschool life just tells me that all she wants to do is have someone to look down on or that Tomoko simply cannot swallow the notion that its her fault she is unpopular, even in front of her closest friend. Now, I'm not going to say that I am or have been above thinking either of these. But Jesus, woman, if you cant swallow your pride enough to be a bit opportunistic, you're screwed. Even I can do that.

Either Tomoko decides she doesn't want popularity in school and looks for other social circles, or she sucks it up and asks Yui for advice.
This episode with Yu tells me that neither is going to happen. This show is going down the frustration route.

EDIT: Dammit Tomoko, if you could accept your brother becoming popular and run to him for help, whats wrong with Yu?
As for the rest of the episode, not bad. I didn't even mind the crazy fantasizing scenes. Although...
Spoiler for why the hell would she fantasize about something like this?:
I cant help but feel that the specific material of the fantasies doesn't sit too comfortably alongside her extreme narcissism. I can make sense of her imagining herself in a sexually dominant position, but this? Wut? Why? I can't be sure, since there's no shortage of strange, apparently contradictory desires out there, so I'll just ask you guys if you think if it makes sense for her to have a rape fantasy yet still be so narcissistic.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:55:42 AM by Pebble »

Offline Thot

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2013, 12:14:31 PM »
Spoiler for Hiden:
Why? I can't be sure, since there's no shortage of strange, apparently contradictory desires out there, so I'll just ask you guys if you think if it makes sense for her to have a rape fantasy yet still be so narcissistic.
Spoiler for Hiden:
"They want me so much they rape me." Although, unless I missed something, that wasn't rape. More like extreme possessiveness. Which is a fetish distinct from rape. But it works the same way here.

Why she chooses to reject Yu is beyond me.

You don't get the idea of "Finally I can talk with someone who's just like me again" -> "Well ****, she isn't."? It's like a blind person talking with someone then the other person suddenly goes "man, that rainbow over there sure is pretty" - "FFFFFFFF".

Offline Pebble

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2013, 12:42:36 PM »
Spoiler for Hiden:
Why? I can't be sure, since there's no shortage of strange, apparently contradictory desires out there, so I'll just ask you guys if you think if it makes sense for her to have a rape fantasy yet still be so narcissistic.
Spoiler for Hiden:
"They want me so much they rape me." Although, unless I missed something, that wasn't rape. More like extreme possessiveness. Which is a fetish distinct from rape. But it works the same way here.
Spoiler for Hiden:
The violence in her fantasy isn't directed towards others. Its directed towards herself. Tomoko is the one who gets beaten up and raped in the fantasy, not anyone else, and there are multiple people "who want to use her before they dispose of her", so Tomoko isn't being possessive or yandere.

There are also no indicators of social barriers in the fantasy, so the extent of the desire she wants to be the object of isn't in the forefront at all. You can't measure how much they want her without setting a scale, like "they want me enough to risk prision or execution". And come on, even the voice acting is indicative of her submissive position.
Gender equality and feminism debate imminent.

You don't get the idea of "Finally I can talk with someone who's just like me again" -> "Well ****, she isn't."? It's like a blind person talking with someone then the other person suddenly goes "man, that rainbow over there sure is pretty" - "FFFFFFFF".

No, see, but Yu is still very much like Kuroki. She still likes anime. She still watches it. Both of them are interested in boys. They can hold a conversation. Their interests align, its just that Yu is successful but Tomoko isn't.

Offline Thot

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2013, 01:05:07 PM »
Spoiler for Hiden:
Why? I can't be sure, since there's no shortage of strange, apparently contradictory desires out there, so I'll just ask you guys if you think if it makes sense for her to have a rape fantasy yet still be so narcissistic.
Spoiler for Hiden:
"They want me so much they rape me." Although, unless I missed something, that wasn't rape. More like extreme possessiveness. Which is a fetish distinct from rape. But it works the same way here.
Spoiler for Hiden:
The violence in her fantasy isn't directed towards others. Its directed towards herself. Tomoko is the one who gets beaten up and raped in the fantasy, not anyone else, and there are multiple people "who want to use her before they dispose of her", so Tomoko isn't being possessive or yandere.

There are also no indicators of social barriers in the fantasy, so the extent of the desire she wants to be the object of isn't in the forefront at all. You can't measure how much they want her without setting a scale, like "they want me enough to risk prision or execution". And come on, even the voice acting is indicative of her submissive position.
Gender equality and feminism debate imminent.
Spoiler for Hiden:
Actually, why are we putting this into spoiler tags. Anyway, you're not aware that there's a fetish for yanderes? You did watch or at least hear about Mirai Nikki, right? That's a prime example. The viewers, that is.
It's just that here it's a male yandere instead, as far as the audio goes.
And oh, you meant that rape scene, I somehow forgot. Well, same deal. Being masochistic and narcissistic are by no means mutually exclusive. Although otherwise completely different, I guess you could draw a certain parallel to Nana and Kaoru there.
Also, getting raped implies you don't have to take any actions to make it happen. It's kinda like the knight in shining armor, only you get the black knight instead haha.


Quote
You don't get the idea of "Finally I can talk with someone who's just like me again" -> "Well ****, she isn't."? It's like a blind person talking with someone then the other person suddenly goes "man, that rainbow over there sure is pretty" - "FFFFFFFF".

No, see, but Yu is still very much like Kuroki. She still likes anime. She still watches it. Both of them are interested in boys. They can hold a conversation. Their interests align, its just that Yu is successful but Tomoko isn't.

It's like misery loves company, except in a more literal sense.

Offline SQA

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2013, 02:06:50 PM »
You don't really even need a debate about gender dynamics or feminism with the rape fantasy issue, all you need to do is unwind the term "rape" in front of it and it makes sense.

If you go back to about pre-1990, almost all of the "bodice ripper" female-near porn fantasy novels were like that.  It was classically called "ravishment fantasy" and taken about as seriously as those books were actually written.  (Which is, not much)  There was a movement to get rid of that type of writing some years ago, but the basics never actually go away.   Like most other fantasies, it's inwardly focused.  It still fits in with Tomoko's narcissism, as the fantasy is to be so desired by *attractive* Men that they would go that far to "take" a Woman.   Think Helen of Troy.   It's a perverse sense of validation and desirability.  Nothing more; nothing less.   

I should also point out that the protagonist in Otome Games being raped is actually a something of a staple of that genre, as we get reminded every time there's an anime adaptation. 

Offline KS

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2013, 08:52:35 PM »
2:

And here is why I can't feel too sorry for Tomoko.  Her friend changed, for better or worse (the friend doesn't seem to be particularly fond of it), but stays the same person she always was.  This allows our heroine a moment of respite getting to enjoy what it is like to actually have someone to be with, someone who likes her for who she is, someone to talk to, and to lean on, if necessary.  But when Tomoko finally blurts out what has been building up inside of her for weeks (that her high school life sucks, but she's trying), instead of being a good friend back, reciprocating the trust, Tomoko literally tunes out when the friend starts relaying her issues.  Why?  Because the friend's issues reveal that her social life in high school is beyond Tomoko's, and she can't deal with that.

This opportunity was huge for our heroine.  It was a way to relating to someone else having troubles, even if the troubles aren't the same.  Troubles AREN'T the same, and if you're only looking to relate with people who do have those kinds of issues, you're going to be lonely a long time.  Meanwhile, if you have a support structure, or at least someone to talk to, don't ****ing lose that opportunity just because you don't think they're on "your level" anymore.  That's shitty.

She brings it on herself, which is, ironically, what her "Yandere Boys" CD is trying to tell her.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this.  The title of the show is basically an irony unto itself.

Offline MCAL

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2013, 11:28:14 PM »
2:

Hmm... Something tells me ths will be the most talked about anime of the summer... So that would be a yes. I did find this episode hilarious. And yes, I did feel bad for finding it hilarious.......... Hey! Stop looking at me like that!

On a more serious note, several forumers and bloggers have comented that this is all pretty realistic stuff (Of course it is exaggerated for comic effect and because it is anime). And I'll just have to take their word for it and not let the more serious stuff hamper my critical feelings. I'm looking for the funnies and I get it. I just don't really see Tomoko as stupid either just so we are clear.

Offline Thot

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2013, 11:30:05 PM »
3:

Well this was pretty brutal.

Offline MCAL

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2013, 12:40:01 PM »
3:

Never before has an anime made me feel so bad for laughing at it... And yet I just can't help myself. This is just hilarious stuff approaching the realm of brilliance IMHO... A 7/10 so far.

Offline KS

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Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2013, 10:09:06 AM »
It took me three episodes to notice that the intro to this show is actually a rare modern example of a theme song that is actually written for and about the show itself rather than just a tie-in by some popular group.  I kind of like that...more of that again please Japan.

Anyway I think Tomoko is my favorite female character of this season though that's a dubious achievement no doubt.  She's such a delightful asshole that hates the whole damn world and everything it stands for so much that she apparently doesn't want to be a part of it despite her protests to the contrary and honestly has the most hilariously bad solutions for social problems that could easily be resolved by giving it an honest shot. 

Anyway I'm starting to learn never to bet against Kuro/Black when it comes to female anime characters.  Apparently it's the key to everything that is delightfully amusing and morose.  I'd say stoic too, but then Tomoko is kind of the polar opposite of that, a subversion if you will who instead of adopting an it is what it is attitude like a lot of recent Kuro types seems to be forever asking, "what did I ever do to deserve this?"  As it continues to turn out the answer seems to be more than she probably will ever realize.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 10:30:01 AM by KS »
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