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October 21, 2017, 12:40:29 PM
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Author Topic: Shingeki no Kyojin  (Read 53572 times)

Offline Pebble

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #405 on: May 23, 2017, 07:39:46 PM »
No its actually just me being stupid. But what is true that Eren's motivations are becoming less and less precise with time because they were stated (quite literally) years ago and have seen no development; in the case of the more nuanced motivations beyond they killed mommy, have faded from memory.

Basically I'm been kvetching about the fact that way back in Season 1 they gave Eren more motivation to kill the titans than just they killed my mother. Back then Eren was obsessed with the idea of freedom, and he understood freedom in the naive sense of being allowed to go where he wanted; more than anything he felt entitled to the world. There was this talk of visiting deserts and oceans that had been touched on lightly in the earliest parts of the first season that only really surfaced in a single line in episode 25 when Eren was going apeshit on Annie in his titan form; he said he felt free. This aspect of this character has gotten, **** I dunno, maybe 5-6 minutes of screntime in the entire show.
I like the way this show does characterisation because its quiet and doesnt shy away from unsympathetic characters, but none of these characters ever get to talk for more than a sentence. In Eren's case this was in episode 1 of this season when he comes clean about the fact that munching on Annie felt good before random people barged in shouting about how titans were inside the walls and all that. Thats (a) a lazy way of avoiding Eren actually saying shit important to his character, and (b) makes it such that Mikasa never has to really wonder what Eren is becoming (or has been all this time), i.e. it avoids potentially imminent character conflict. I claim there is an important distinction between characters growing unsympathetic and character motivations literally being forgotten by the show, and S2 has tended towards the latter as far as Eren is concerned.

In this episode Hannes, Mikasa and Armin melancholically ruminate on how the dynamic between them and Eren has never changed over all these years. Thats true. But I fail to see why that isnt precisely the problem. These three have been in character limbo for quite a while,

Offline AC

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #406 on: May 28, 2017, 05:32:13 AM »
9:

So... Reiner's suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Hmm, interesting.

What's also interesting is the use of the term 'warrior'. Not sure if this is a language among abnormal Titans but if it is, it's a huge revelation: they are somewhat working towards a certain common goal. Or it could just be between Reiner and Bertholdt. I actually like this episode, although nothing's really happening. It's a setup episode where the characters' decisions determine what will happen next.

The question lies on Ymir now; what she plans to do will determine what will happen next.

Offline Pebble

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #407 on: May 28, 2017, 07:33:45 AM »
What's also interesting is the use of the term 'warrior'. Not sure if this is a language among abnormal Titans but if it is, it's a huge revelation: they are somewhat working towards a certain common goal. Or it could just be between Reiner and Bertholdt.

If you recall, in the episode where they confront Annie and try to coax her to enter a tunnel, right before she tries to transform she says: "Nevermind. I have failed to become a warrior."

So at the very least its an ideal shared by the three of them.

Offline Starbuckets

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #408 on: May 28, 2017, 10:01:27 AM »
9:

So... Reiner's suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Hmm, interesting.


To me this looks much more like a dissociative identity disorder, with one persona being the "soldier", an idealised version of the military recruit fighting for people's freedom within the Walls that was created as a result of the time Reiner spent among his fellow trainees, and the other being the "warrior", the man entrusted with the mission to wipe out humanity. Other than that yeah, he's definitely a broken man.

Offline Pebble

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #409 on: May 28, 2017, 12:55:03 PM »
9:

Look, I like the concept of Reiner's character and all, but the way they had Ymir just ****ing say everything was pathetic. Its a betrayal, because even though this show likes to stuff things down your mouth, answers are not supposed to be that easy, even if Ymir's entire schtick is supposed to be that she cannot keep her mouth shut when she starts rambling.

As for the monkey... well Ymir suggests here that the beast titan is Reiner and Bertholdt's 'employer', so to speak, and that seeing him there is what got Reiner and Bertholdt so antsy about jumping the gun and grabbing Eren. He might be Annie's father now that I think about it.
I dont like the theory; it makes more sense for the Beast titan to be some sort of rival than some titanic incarnation of a looming project deadline. If the beast titan turns out to be this employer figure Id say that would be a massive plot hole, since it would make far more sense for the beast titan to come help Bertholt and Reiner.
As I understand it the mission for Bertholt, Annie and Reiner was to retrieve Eren since Eren is somehow special (probably Dad's vaccine), the problem being they dont know where he is or what he looks like. Since their approach was to try to kill everyone clearly they want Eren dead or alive. It suggests Eren is probably some kind of titan-shaped biological superweapon that Reiner's masters want removed. Part of the question is how they know about this stuff, and the only forthcoming answer is that there is a class of people - likely including Eren's father - that (somewhat) freely enter and exit the walls.

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #410 on: May 28, 2017, 02:30:10 PM »
9:

This is the kind of sequence that just pisses me off.  I'm okay with Reiner having a mental disorder, because that adds an interesting quirk to this, and I'm okay with Eren confronting Bertholdt about his actions leading to Eren's mother's death, but I can't stand the rest of this.  Basically, Reiner, Bertholdt and Ymir all have a conversation that seems to be on a level of pure understanding, but of course, Eren isn't on the same level, and more infuriating is "neither is the audience".  This was our moment to get some answers, to find out why the abnormal titans are attacking humanity, to find out what the goal and the motivation was, and to find out what they want to do in the future.

Instead, the writer intentionally says "nah, that mystery is going to be dragged out a while longer" and gives a middle finger to the audience.

**** you.
I'm just like you, only smarterô.

Offline gedata

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #411 on: May 30, 2017, 07:50:08 PM »
9: How is it possible to speak so long without saying anything?

Offline SQA

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #412 on: June 02, 2017, 05:25:45 PM »
9: How is it possible to speak so long without saying anything?

Ever tuned in to a Congressional Hearing?

Offline Pebble

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #413 on: June 03, 2017, 10:22:11 AM »
10:

Well Hannes certainly has changed.
Im not a fan of how they did the Ymir flashback. Its juicy material but a good bit of it we already knew and REALLY didnt need to subject to the flash images over narration treatment. That said it does contain a lot of info.

I think I have Ymir figured out, and also possibly the mystery of Connie's village.
Spoiler for speculation:
Clue 1 is something weird Ymir says. (@9:30) "Is that after I am going to be eaten by one of your warriors?" But why would Reiner's warriors eat Ymir? Punishment of some sort? That seems like a waste of sentient titan, and as we see in the flashback thats not how Reiner's people do punishment.

Clue 2 is the entire flashback. We know two things. Ymir's people are imprisoned and kept in an enclave where belief in the blood of the king, whatever that is, is illegal. Its also feared and hated to the point where you can have mob lynching for this cult. Secondly the cult isnt a throwaway cult because the punishment of injection and exile is too formal. In fact the punishment is also very strange.

In history exile and excommmunication has commonly been the highest order of punishment. Why not stop at exile? Why injection too? If anything the point of exile is to strip away the physical and spiritual securities of being embedded in society - protection from the titans is clearly the physical security, but what about the spiritual gesture? Excommunication had strong spiritual connotations, so whats the gesture for this incredibly ritualized punishment?
My conjecture is that the injection is a symbolic gesture that effectively means "this is your true, wretched, self". The rest of the theory just fleshes out what you need for this to make sense.

These enclosed people are people who are latently titan transformersTM. This is genetic and peculiar to them; probably only these people have this genetic ability to transform.
Clue 3 is that Ymir could read the ancient castle language. The language was on a tin of tuna, so its not THAT old. The conjecture is that some of Ymir's people live within the walls, and that Connie's village is inhabited by these people. The fact that Connie's village was not monitored heavily like outside the walls means that either nobody (including Connie's village) knows about this. Ymir could understand the language in the castle inside the walls, so its possible that the walls are the homeland of Ymir's people.

Now, for the big question: who are the warriors?
First I need to make an observation. When they injected Ymir's followers and kicked them off the walls, they transformed immediately. Ymir stayed a titan for 60 years after that, and reverted to being a human after eating somebody. Compare this with Eren's injection flashback. For one this absurd period of time didnt pass until he reverts to being human, so he must have eaten somebody immediately. The nearest person around was Eren's father, so I guess thats where he went.
I claim there are two kinds of titans, that correspond to each kind of injection. I'll call them natural titans and unnatural titans. Ymir's people are natural titans. Its unclear how this ability works with inheritance but Eren's mother was some random person from within the walls that his father married after arriving, so my guess is she wasnt of Ymir's people. Im going to guess that Eren is not a natural titan. However, by injection he was given titan power, making him an unnatural titan.

Given how much hate is dumped on Ymir's people it is unlikely they would show any kind of loyalty to Reiner's masters (understood to be the same people confining Ymir's people). Lets also not forget that Titans are incredibly difficult to control, even using other titans - loyalty is an absolute necessity if you are going to weaponize titan shifters. There are two solutions:
1. Reiner and the 'warriors' are people from Ymir's people raised away from Ymir's people and trained to become weaponized titans.
2. Reiner and the warriors are unnatural titans, made titans via injection not unlike Eren's. Their loyalty stems from pre-existing allegiance to Reiner's masters.
2.1. Both; some are of type 1, some of type 2.

Lastly, why does Ymir expect to be eaten?
This one is where im crapshooting the most. Im guessing that you need that to make the serums you use to make titans or induce titans. Either that or just eating a titan shifter allows you to steal their powers assuming you "remember them", sort of like posesssion only backwards.

Let me know what you guys think. There are some inconsistencies here, and I dont think the two injections theory is sufficiently justified.

Offline AC

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #414 on: June 04, 2017, 05:10:46 AM »
10:

Still the biggest secret is not revealed yet (show is still dicking with us) but at Ymir's story is revealed. But to be truthful, a whole lot didn't happen; it's just the question of why Ymir desperately wants to be with Christa despite risking everything instead of putting it off now and risking not seeing her anymore.

Her story's okay, although I still don't understand this whole Warrior thing. When did they actually decide to have a common cause, even after Ymir had Reiner's comrade for breakfast? And who the hell is this Coordinate? Like I said, this show is still dicking with us.

Offline Pebble

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #415 on: June 10, 2017, 07:55:03 PM »
11:

Tfw you didnt notice a 10ft tall monster casually crawling up to you. That guy deserved to get eaten. And that scene alone is 20 sins.

And the sudden time-lapsy slowdowns in the action so that characters can talk are thoroughly nonsensical. This show should be better than that.

Offline Gadget

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #416 on: June 10, 2017, 10:31:01 PM »
11
The Military Police are incompetent. But Erwin arm got eaten was a shock effect.

The animation starts look look a bit like Berserk. Like the evil Mikasa look. Don't *uck with her, espically when it comes to Eren. I think Eren going to kick ass in titan form.

Offline AC

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #417 on: June 11, 2017, 05:03:49 AM »
11:

Mikasa made it clear that she's focus on saving Eren and only saving Eren. She's probably the most focused character of all, ahead of Bertholdt, Reiner and maybe even Eren. But honestly, this is Armin's episode. I haven't mentioned it earlier, but every major character in this show has a special trait. Eren is sheer persistence. Mikasa is fighting competency. For Armin, it's observation.

A lot of the plot has thickened purely based on Armin's observations on key people's behaviors. And since he recognizes that in order to gain something, something else's gotta give; then he should toy with Bertholdt about Annie's captivity. Again, he's the only person who noticed that Annie is their comrade (purely on deduction) and acted upon it. That's incredible.

Offline Gadget

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #418 on: June 11, 2017, 09:58:39 AM »
But the most bad ass are the horses. They seems to co operate with the Titans. Like the MP who got eaten. The horse just stood there. And during the chaos of the battle, a horse just rammed a Scout. It's like revenge on the humans.

But the most fearsome person is actually Erwin. He realise that Eren is the key to humanity survival. And he will sacrifice EVERYTHING. He has no problems using his Scouts as bait. Even when he go his arm chomp, he still orders his Scouts.

Everyone is desperate. Good thing Eren did not see Mikasa. I bet he'll freak out. Let Bertholdt take the fear. Mikasa willingness to kill Christa/Historia is no surprising seeing how devoted she is to Eren. But even Armin is willing to lie to play mind games with Bertholdt. I agree with AC that he notice Bertholdt is attracted to Annie. But he was willing to use this observation, twisted it around, to mindF**k Bertholdt. It's either everyone is desperate, or their inner animal nature for survival appears. And Reiner in his Titan form cannot do much.

Offline AC

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
« Reply #419 on: June 18, 2017, 05:33:16 AM »
37:

Oh, it's the final episode.

Just as before, we have some answers... which beget more questions. Eren is hinted to be a Coordinate, somewhat a more formidable form of Titan. A meta-Titan who can summon other Titans, so to speak. Is he the only one? Is this an ability he gained only just now? We can't tell yet. For all we know, the situation remains the same as before: Eren is still the prized commodity.

Other hints: is Ymir's old cult somewhat tied to this Warrior thing? Are all Titan formerly humans? Is there a trigger (or an instigator) to changing humans into Titans? Who is that man on top of Beast Titan? Guess we have to wait until next year for the third season.

Good season, although progress is still thwarted because of this 'complexity paradox' (or the show just dicking with us). Great action sequences all around, although the gap between the first and second seasons was a little long. 7/10.
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