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Author Topic: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)  (Read 9692 times)

Offline TypicalIdiotFan

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 04:11:43 PM »
This has got to be a put on.
I'm just like you, only smarter™.

Offline USA2011

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 04:15:07 PM »
Now I haven't seen Victory Gundam, but apparently you haven't either, so I think I can comment on why I disagree with you.

That's not accurate, I've seen the first three episodes, as I've mentioned.

He is referring to Wing, Seed, and Seed Destiny (and maybe G Gundam depending on his preference), I believe. Those are the lowest reviewed shows on this site (even ZZ got a higher score), and are considered crap or maybe mediocre. If you think they aren't crap, you can certainly make that argument (but make it as a pm, because you are not going to get a decent argument here), but for the purposes of this review, that is what he is referring to.

I re-read his comment.  I misread it.  I actually thought he meant the opposite of what he said.  I took this line:

"If you are wondering why so many die hard fans are still willing to ride on what quite frankly looks like the RMS Titanic, look no further than the Universal Century shows."

To mean that the UC Century shows are crap, but actually he's saying they're good.  I still don't agree with that statement, but it's not nearly as bad as I thought it was.  If I had read that right, I probably would not have posted this thread at all. 

Just to address the rest of this, I disagree with Shadowmage's take on Wing Gundam and After War X (if he's implying they're bad).  You can't use Gundam SEED or Destiny, because Victory came out before those series.  I would agree that G Gundam was awful. 

Fortunately, a show is not defined by the quality of its opening episodes, and the review doesn't even refer to them. Instead, he talks about how he was moved by the tragic consequences of war, the harrowing image of children carrying the coffins of the people who died in the line of fire. Can that really be portrayed effectively in a mere three episodes? Perhaps, but in this case it didn't need to. And yes, I can name one film that starts in the middle of a fight: Star Wars IV: A New Hope (the opening scene shows a Star Destroyer going after a Rebel ship, and we don't know what the hell is going on until after the battle is over.)

A show is definitely defined in part by the quality of its opening episode, it's foolish to contend otherwise.  Whether or not other content of the series can be portrayed in the first three episodes is irrelevant.  The opening episode is poor.  I've explained why.

With regards to the Star Wars comment, your example doesn't work.  Here's what I wrote about Victory: "It drops you off right in the middle of a fight between the protagonist and the antagonist.  Have there ever been any good films (and I don't just mean anime) that does that?  No, I don't think so.  It's very poor form.  You go through the first episode without having any clue who the two are and why they are fighting."

The opening scene in Star Wars IV is between Princess Leia's ship and Darth Vader's ship.  Darth Vader is the antagonist, but Leia is not the protagonist, Luke Skywalker is the protagonist.  Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that there are several paragraphs of explanation that preceed that fight scene as well. 

Sweeping generalizations are nice and all, but unfortunately they don't make for good arguments. (I know from experience, trust me.) I love the UC Gundam shows, but I am not in the very least interested in the realism of it. Does that mean I'm not a real Gundam fan? I'm sorry, but the answer is no, and the same applies to Shadowmage. Even if he does care about the realism, he didn't feel it was necessary to bring it up in his review compared to the things that he did bring up, which in my unofficial opinion (since I'm not a real Gundam fan, apparently) are more important.

Yet you've failed to show how what I wrote is a sweeping generalization.  All one has to do is look at Gundam mecha technical websites and Gundam videos on YouTube to see that Gundam fans love realism.  Also, if one looks at the recent Gundam which has been released (SEED and Unicorn) they both are more realistic and serious, as is what is arguably the highest rated Gundam: Gundam Zeta. 

Also, you mistakenly perceive this comment:

"If you don't like the UC series, you're really not an old school Gundam fan, and maybe not even a genuine Gundam fan."

As meaning you must love realism in Gundam to be a genuine Gundam fan, when that statement doesn't even contain the word realism.  The key concept in that sentence is whether or not you love the UC series, not whether or not you love realism.

To underline one thing: I would withdraw my assertion that the Gundam Victory review is "utter crap."  That is based on my misreading on of the lines from Shadowmage.  I maintain all my other comments. 

I will modify my opening post if I am able to under the forum options given to regular members.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:44:36 PM by USA2011 »

Offline USA2011

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 04:19:00 PM »
So yes you would have to watch all or most of the franchise if you're going to write about it.

Lemme get this straight: only people who like the larger franchise enough (i.e. are fans) or have nothing better to do than watch series after series of something they hate are qualified to write about a particular series.

It's stupid how you focus more on twisting my words than actually understanding them or disagreeing with them.  You need to learn to read to.  There's nothing in what I wrote that would lead one to the conclusion that I "watch series after series of something they hate."  Also, it shows stupidity that you try to act like you are a big pimp looking down on anime fans on an anime discussion forum.

Lemme get this straight: disparaging a particular individual is tantamount to disparaging all who share at least one quality with that individual.

Well, I guess I do hate everybody, so there is some credence to this...

You've gotten nothing straight.  Everything you've said "lemme get this straight" to has been a foolish attempt by you to get it crooked.  The best way to get it straight is to stop trying to get it crooked because you don't have the ability to make an intelligent criticism or disagreement. 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:31:27 PM by USA2011 »

Offline Shadowmage

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 05:35:22 PM »
Yes, Big Guy is right.  I was taking a snipe at the AU side of things. 

Now I  admit that in context of Victory Gundam mentioning AU shows may be unjust since AU shows didn't exist after Victory, but I was using the sentence as more of a hook than an actual argument about the show. 

Then also, he loves Gundam Victory so much, but that just shows he has no idea what he is writing about.  I've only seen the first three episodes, but those first three were very much inferior to many of the titles I've already mentioned.  He gives Victory a 9/10, but the opening is pretty awful.  It drops you off right in the middle of a fight between the protagonist and the antagonist.  Have there ever been any good films (and I don't just mean anime) that does that?  No, I don't think so.  It's very poor form.  You go through the first episode without having any clue who the two are and why they are fighting.
My understanding of this situation is that some executives at the television network wanted the Gundam to appear episode 1.  The problem is that Tomino had already written the script and Uso didn't get the Gundam until much later on.  So, in order to square this situation, they took the first episode that the Gundam appears and made it episode 1, then they returned to true first episode in episode 2.

Quote
There's none of the realism that Gundam fans love.  The mecha designs are somewhat stupid, with the enemy mecha having bug eyes that really serve no purpose except to make them look evil.  I'd put the first episode of almost any Gundam up against the first episode of victory.
The "realism" will come; however, the enemy mech designs will be more Aura Battler Dunbine inspired than WW2 Nazi Germany inspired.  Even I must admit that I prefer the latter. 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:09:00 PM by Shadowmage »

I recommend Mobile Suit, RX-0 and Unicorn from the Unicorn OST.

Offline DrIdiot

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 05:36:02 PM »
You've gotten nothing straight.  Everything you've said "lemme get this straight" to has been a foolish attempt by you to get it crooked.  The best way to get it straight is to stop trying to get it crooked because you don't have the ability to make an intelligent criticism or disagreement. 

Lemme get this straight: an individual who comes into a forum and disrespects its members is totally reasonable in demanding respect in return.

It seems that I know nothing about human relationships!  I suppose there's a reason my username is DrIdiot.

Seriously though, I'm done.

Offline Fumoffu!!

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 05:40:54 PM »
Seriously though, could you at least wait til after you've watched the series before complaining about the review? When people say you haven't seen it, they mean that you haven't seen most the show, and so your experience of how good or bad it is is limited. What's 3 episodes out of 51? That's not even a tenth of the episodes, do you not think you're making a huge assumption about the series to think that the review is shit in general? How do you know the rest of the series is shit? Sure first episodes make an important impression, but you cannot define a whole show off them. I'd much prefer a show with a strong end and a weak start to one with a strong start but a weak end, and who's to know whether or not it'll get good if you haven't seen it?

Offline USA2011

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 06:35:17 PM »
Yes, Big Guy is right.  I was taking a snipe at the AU side of things. 

Now I  admit that in context of Victory Gundam mentioning AU shows may be unjust since AU shows didn't exist after Victory, but I was using the sentence as more of a hook than an actual argument about the show. 

Hi Shadow. 

It's fair to take a swipe at AU, but I don't share your opinion on AU if you think Gundam Wing and After War X are bad series. I would agree with you that G Gundam was an embarrassment though. I think most people who have seen either Wing or After War X wouldn't agree with you either. As for ZZ Gundam, yeah lots of people hate it, but I would say that it's a misunderstood series and the first half of it, which was slap stick, was needed after the mass killings in Zeta (which you made mention of in your review, I believe). 

My understanding of this situation is that some executives at the television network wanted the Gundam to appear episode 1.  The problem is that Tomino had already written the script and Uso didn't get the Gundam until much later on.  So, in order to square this situation, they took the first episode that the Gundam appears and made it episode 1, then they returned to true first episode in episode 2.

I see.  On an artistic level it's still bad to do that though.  I notice you have an avatar from Gundam Unicorn in your avatar.  You'll notice how well the first scene is from that series.  I believe it's with the prime ministers home in space blowing up.  When you see that, it just knocks you out.  It also sets you up for what the whole show is about: the secret of the Box and the secret history of the Universal Century.  It has a symbolic and stylistic element, which is completely destroyed in Victory, with what looked like a lazy drop off in the middle of yet another mecha fight (and a rather pitiful one at that). 

The "realism" will come; however, the enemy mech designs will be more Aura Battler Dunbine inspired than WW2 Nazi Germany inspired.  Even I must admit that I prefer the latter.

From what I saw of the opening theme, the mech designs don't look great, they look cartoonish, but I'll see. 

I find it strange that you say that the Gundam mecha (presumably the Zion side) are Nazi Germany inspired.  How do you see the Zaku as Nazi Germany inspired?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 08:32:17 PM by Shadowmage »

Offline USA2011

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2011, 06:40:00 PM »
You've gotten nothing straight.  Everything you've said "lemme get this straight" to has been a foolish attempt by you to get it crooked.  The best way to get it straight is to stop trying to get it crooked because you don't have the ability to make an intelligent criticism or disagreement. 

Lemme get this straight: an individual who comes into a forum and disrespects its members is totally reasonable in demanding respect in return.

It seems that I know nothing about human relationships!  I suppose there's a reason my username is DrIdiot.

Seriously though, I'm done.

Again, you get it crooked all in the name of "lemme get this straight." 

Your name is highly accurate.

Offline USA2011

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2011, 06:54:22 PM »
Seriously though, could you at least wait til after you've watched the series before complaining about the review? When people say you haven't seen it, they mean that you haven't seen most the show, and so your experience of how good or bad it is is limited. What's 3 episodes out of 51? That's not even a tenth of the episodes, do you not think you're making a huge assumption about the series to think that the review is shit in general? How do you know the rest of the series is shit? Sure first episodes make an important impression, but you cannot define a whole show off them. I'd much prefer a show with a strong end and a weak start to one with a strong start but a weak end, and who's to know whether or not it'll get good if you haven't seen it?

My response to the review was based on a number of Shadowmage's statements, not just on Victory Gundam.  A lot of it was focused on his comments of the Gundam franchise, which I admit was my mistake in misinterpreting them.  For the record though, I do stand by every thing else I wrote.

Maybe you're right that the series will get better.  I doubt it.  I highly doubt it can be as good as Gundam series or movies that earn a 9/10 or better (i.e. Stardust Memory, maybe Char's Counterattack).  I think I'm a pretty good judge of whether a film or series is good or not in a period of time that's a lot less than 90 minutes. 

There's not much reason to think that a lot of those things will change (the weak-looking design of the mecha, the unimaginative antagonist, weak technical concepts like the beam rotors).  The opening is poor in conception and execution, and I think it's more reasonable to think that reflects on the whole series rather than not. 

Offline Hokuto_Spirit

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2011, 07:55:32 PM »
@OP: G Gundam is an emberassment? You obviously have no taste.

Offline USA2011

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2011, 08:09:14 PM »
@OP: G Gundam is an emberassment? You obviously have no taste.

Obviously, yes.  You obviously have neither taste nor any sense of shame. 

If a person wants to criticize Gundam, there's no lower hanging fruit than G Gundam. 

Offline Shadowmage

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 08:33:03 PM »
It's fair to take a swipe at AU, but I don't share your opinion on AU if you think Gundam Wing and After War X are bad series.  I would agree with you that G Gundam was an embarrassment though.  I think most people who have seen either Wing or After War X wouldn't agree with you either.  As for ZZ Gundam, yeah lots of people hate it, but I would say that it's a misunderstood series and the first half of it, which was slap stick, was needed after the mass killings in Zeta (which you made mention of in your review, I believe).

I didn't like Gundam Wing.   Gundam X was a decent series but I felt it fell apart when it went into space (though to be fair the show was cancelled before its full run).  The first part of Gundam ZZ was painful but the rest was quite good.  I appreciate what G Gundam had going but I didn't enjoy it.     

Quote
I see.  On an artistic level it's still bad to do that though.

I don't disagree.   The first episode was quite disorienting since it throws the viewer into midst of things without explanation.

Quote
I find it strange that you say that the Gundam mecha (presumably the Zion side) are Nazi Germany inspired.  How do you see the Zaku as Nazi Germany inspired?

The Zaku always reminded me of a WWII era soldier with a gas mask.  Now that I think about it, the Nazi Germany part is me projecting the ideals and attitudes of Zeon onto the mechs.   

I recommend Mobile Suit, RX-0 and Unicorn from the Unicorn OST.

Offline USA2011

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 09:15:08 PM »
I didn't like Gundam Wing.   Gundam X was a decent series but I felt it fell apart when it went into space (though to be fair the show was cancelled before its full run).  The first part of Gundam ZZ was painful but the rest was quite good.  I appreciate what G Gundam had going but I didn't enjoy it.     

Gundam Wing was good and I think most people who saw it would agree with that.  I believe that it was Gundam Wing which was the first series that was on the Cartoon Network of Gundam. 

Gundam X I felt was pretty solid.  It's got none of the realism or the seriousness which makes for really great Gundam, but on the other hand it had quite a few different models of Gundams if I recall, some of which were very cool (the two used by the Frost brothers and the Air Master).  I think the series got into space pretty late, and there was no real discernible drop off in quality that I can recall at that point.  Perhaps the final battle may have been a bit weak in some aspects.

Gundam ZZ, again I'd say the first half slap stick was necessary and was actually impressive in some respects, since it could show that Gundam can do comedy too.  Why rush back to more characters getting killed?  I welcomed the comedy and actually kind of missed it towards the end.

G Gundam was garbage.  There were some good scenes in it, but it's hard to watch that series and maintain self-respect at the same time. 

The Zaku always reminded me of a WWII era soldier with a gas mask.  Now that I think about it, the Nazi Germany part is me projecting the ideals and attitudes of Zeon onto the mechs.

You could be right about that with regards to the Zaku.  I may have thought the same thing about the Zaku I, which looks more like the gas mask than the Zaku II.  I tend to think of the Zeon suits as cyclops, but most of the mechs do not look anything like WWII Nazi soldiers.

There's a lot of clear WWII German references though.  Gihren Zabi is referred to as a wannabe Hitler, and the Zeon flag is, I believe, the naval flag of the 3rd Reich.  The wings that are omnipresent on Zeon uniforms look like the eagles that I believe either Hitler or the Luftwaffe made use of.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 09:22:46 PM by USA2011 »

Offline USA2011

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 09:59:49 PM »
Oh Shadow,

Your review of Gundam Wing blows.  Sorry man, it does.  3/10? 

http://www.nihonreview.com/anime/mobile-suit-gundam-wing/

Maybe G Gundam might deserve a 3/10, but Gundam Wing?  You're definitely in the minority on that one (like 1 in 6 [or less] kind of minority), as you acknowledge in your review. 

Gundam X got a more fair hearing on this site, but the G Gundam rating is pretty bad.  It gets a 7/10, but what can you say about a series where someone who likes it makes this disclaimer: "To be perfectly honest, the whole concept of a global tournament in which countries fight for superiority with Gundams is idiotic at best...Yes, I am proud to say that I am a G Gundam fan. Laugh at me if you must,"?

Your scoring on Zeta Gundam is about what I would expect from anyone reviewing Zeta.  I think the series good, but overrated.  I'd give it a 8 or an 8.5 out of 10, which is only that high because the standards for a 52 episode running series must be reduced.  Kamille is annoying, the Cyber Newtype chick thing is repetitive, as is the Titan's bungling, and being solid doesn't mean excellent. 

Your ZZ Gundam score is about right, although you really have to be a Gundam fan to even give it that high probably.   I think to be fair, you should include how the series intends to be slap stick as a counter to all the death that takes place in Z Gundam.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 10:38:32 PM by USA2011 »

Offline USA2011

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Re: Gundam Victory Review is Utter Crap (Withdrawn)
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 10:25:56 PM »
I think your review of Char's Counterattack was decent, the rating was about right, although it probably deserves a 10/10 for a Gundam fan by the candy ass standards I've seen for some of these other Gundam series.  :D

I disagree with this bit:

Of course, all of this action is just icing on the cake, or at least it should be. This is a story that the Gundam saga had been building up to. As Federation soldiers or rebels, Amuro and Bright had finely tuned senses of right and wrong, so it makes sense why they would be fighting to save Earth, despite the vermin who infested it. Char, on the other hand, had always been impatient and overly idealistic. Even though his paradigm shift from how he was during the Gryps War seems a little forced, the picture painted from 0079 and the Zeta Duology (Z and ZZ) helps one understand how he could even think of committing an act as vile as an asteroid drop. These are strong characters made even better as their conflicting values are put to the test. Personally, what got me was that despite his methods were unacceptable, in the end, Char was right.

Of course, a movie that is based around the rivalry between two men can fall apart easily if their motives are plain not believable, though pulls it off with one simple statement. Deep down at the bottom of their hearts, Amuro and Char truly hate each other. They hated each other when they realized that they were equally matched. They hated each other when their obsession over Newtype Lalah Sune, lead to her death. They must have detested each other when their situation demanded them cooperating. And definitely they hate each other now more than ever. I think that this antagonism is best described by annoying character Quess Paraya, “So that’s why married couples fight.”


Char's Counterattack was all about the action, in my opinion, it's not just the icing on the cake.  The Amuro vs Char duel is part of the action.  It's interesting that you say Char is right.  Maybe by Gundam logic (whereby being born on earth automatically means you're going to be part of a dictatorship or a colonial empire) you can argue that but I guess I don't agree with the stated premise. 

It's interesting that you say that deep down Char and Amuro hate each other as they seemed to bury the hatchet in Zeta.  I think the director just wanted this fight and this plot. 

Also, I believe the consensus among Gundam fans is that Amuro clearly has more natural ability (he's the more powerful Newtype) but Char is more clever.  That's how I look at it anyway.  Char is a brilliant tactician, but Amuro has the power. 
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