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Author Topic: Steins;Gate  (Read 34548 times)

Offline ImperialX

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2011, 07:26:20 PM »
22:

Excellent episode; faultless. (From a non-VN POV, of course)

...apart from the VERY ending, that is (past the ED). Whilst I was watching the episode (and the ensuing ED) I actually thought a curveball had been thrown and it was the very end of the series. I'm not sure what to make of the new direction.

Would you have preferred it to end right there?

Offline Jack Rav

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2011, 07:45:32 PM »
22:

Excellent episode; faultless. (From a non-VN POV, of course)

...apart from the VERY ending, that is (past the ED). Whilst I was watching the episode (and the ensuing ED) I actually thought a curveball had been thrown and it was the very end of the series. I'm not sure what to make of the new direction.

Would you have preferred it to end right there?
I wouldn't have been entirely dissatisfied. Maybe a little bit wanting, although 2 episodes seems a tad too much because it seemed decidedly final.

Offline Fumoffu!!

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #77 on: September 06, 2011, 03:04:56 PM »
23:

Mayushi... she slapped him... Mayushi did, woah. I guess it's a Mayushi-Slap.

Anyway, I now finally get why Mayushi kept on dying, and that's because the lines tend to one another through that field they kept mentioning. I should have noticed before. Seems like the series will be neatly resolved, which is good in a way, to be honest I was always in favour of an end where Kurisu and Mayushi are alive (I wonder whether they'll kill Okarin this time :p). The solution to the problem is one that I have thought of before (though not in response to this program), and I think it is a pretty good explanation. I don't know how much this diverged from the Visual Novel, but I think this looks to be a pretty good anime original ending.

Oh, and they used the second verse of [Hacking the Gate] for the opening, and they slightly changed a bit of the visuals as well. Nice touch.

Offline ImperialX

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2011, 02:44:40 AM »
23:

This is actually a lot more complicated than what most people think, so I think this is worth a read to most of you.

The main reason that Rintarou of 2025 didn’t send his video D-mail to Rintarou of July 28th and tell that version of himself to save Kurisu is because he wants to preserve the three weeks of hell he went through where he developed feelings for Kurisu. (Three weeks actual time - of course, as for how many times he jumped back and fourth, it can well be several months to several years). It was that experience that drove the current Rintarou of August 21st to spend the next 15 years of his life with Daru creating a time machine and perfecting the video D-mail to try and save Kurisu. He wants to cause a divergence towards Steins;Gate after those three weeks and not before it. To accomplish that, he needs Rintarou of 8/21 to do it for him. He also needs to trick history. He needed to trick himself. Those who have played Ever17 - this is a very similar trick to what Blickwinkel played on himself.

The reason why the video D-mail from 2025 came after Suzuha from 2036 is because her arrival is required to put the current Rintarou of 8/21 into a slightly modified version of the Beta timeline where he will send a movie mail back to himself. The reason why Suzuha didn’t go back in time until 2036 is because the time machine wasn’t completed until 11 years later. (Note: As Suzuha mentioned before, Rintarou was already dead by then, having been killed in 2025, leaving Daru to finish the time machine alone. Incidentally, 2025 is when World War 3 broke out in the Beta timeline.)

In this version of the Beta timeline, everything from the “world’s perspective” remains the same. Kurisu is still dead, except she’s killed by Rintarou. History is fooled because Suzuha has inserted a change that allows Rintarou to receive a movie mail, while adhering to the effects of the Attractor Field convergence — the phenomenon where certain events in a given timeline are fated. Rather than fighting hopelessly against fate, Rintarou of 2025′s plan is to first go along with it. In other words, whether Rintarou or Dr. Nakabachi kills Kurisu doesn’t change the fact that Rintarou and Daru will spend the next 15 years of their life creating a time machine and perfecting the video D-mail. A change definitely occurred though since Rintarou of 8/21 is now responsible for killing Kurisu, but it’s so subtle that there was no perceived divergence. It went practically undetected by the timeline. As soon as Rintarou of Suzuha returned to August 21st, 2010, they were already on a path to a slightly different future though. According to the game, the shift was from only from 1.130205 to 1.130209~1.130211. This is a 0.000004~0.000006 change.

The video mail sent to Rintarou on July 28th is only readable now because it is sent by the Rintarou of 8/21 that killed Kurisu. The original Rintarou of 7/28 (in episode one) received noise, because Rintarou of 2025 had to send one (even if it was blank) so that the current Rintarou of 8/21 will send one as well fifteen years from now when he becomes Rintarou of 2025. Remember, the subtle change on who killed Kurisu doesn’t change the current future. However, Rintarou can change the contents of that D-mail to himself like we saw here. The first Rintarou of 2025 who didn’t kill Kurisu left a future means to get a message back to Rintarou of 8/21 where he can keep trying to save Kurisu. This time, it’s over a span of 15 years and Rintarou is receiving D-mails instead of sending them.

Now that Rintarou of 2025 is getting closer to tricking history, he tasks Rintarou of 8/21 with the last part of the plan, to save Kurisu without affecting anything afterward that leads to saving her. It makes perfect sense if you think about it. If Rintarou of 2025 or Suzuha of 2036 just saved Kurisu themselves, they would’ve pre-empted the very three-week experience that caused Rintarou to try and save her in the first place. They would’ve gone to a whole new timeline and who knows what would go wrong there at least, we know that Rintarou won't be in love with Kuirsu. The plan is to stay on the current timeline but save Kurisu. To do that, he needs to make sure that the current Rintarou of 8/21 saves Kurisu while fooling himself on 7/28 so that everything that’s happened up to this point remains exactly the same. The divergence to Steins;Gate comes from destroying the research papers, but starts from August 21st onward when the time machine returns to that day. It’s not explicitly stated, but I presume that would be another 1+% divergence since World War 3 will have been prevented.

Finally, I strongly urge everyone in this thread to rematch episode 1 AND episode 23 after reading all that was posted above. You will be amazed at the sheer coherency of this anime adaptation - the "15 minutes", the static, and even the pin - which has blown me away, and also by far my favorite anime of 2011 right now. Steins;Gate has given me hope - VNs CAN be adapted into good anime adaptations if we believe. White Fox, please do ChaoS;HEAd and Robotic;Notes!  

Offline Fumoffu!!

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2011, 06:27:56 AM »
It was slightly more complex than I thought...

It makes perfect sense if you think about it. If Rintarou of 2025 or Suzuha of 2036 just saved Kurisu themselves, they would’ve pre-empted the very three-week experience that caused Rintarou to try and save her in the first place. They would’ve gone to a whole new timeline and who knows what would go wrong there at least, we know that Rintarou won't be in love with Kuirsu.

What about the reading Steiner? The Rintarou of 25 years in the future presumably has the reading steiner too, so he'd remember the three weeks. This has got me wondering about the different Okabe's in different world lines that all have reading steiners. Would they all have reading steiners? If they did, then what happens if two Okabe's in different world-lines both send D-Mails that changed the past and moved their world lines to the same world line as each other? I'm confused...

Offline Jack Rav

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #80 on: September 07, 2011, 07:14:38 AM »
Firstly,
*officially retracts comments made following episode 22*

23:

HOUOUIN KYOUMA is back!! :D El. Psy. Congroo.

Thanks for the thorough explanation of what is happening now, Imperial, although I did already understand the point of having Kurisu indirectly rather than directly saved by Okabe. (I also definitely plan on watching episode 1 (and maybe 23) again to see just how they translate to each other.

We now know that Okabe has two tasks before him now;

#1: Destroy the papers.
#2: Save Kurisu.

It seems apparent how Okabe will attempt to save Kurisu, presumably fake her death (how he will do this is beyond me. :P), but the destruction of the papers is less certain. There are two ways that Okabe can do this (in my eyes):

Spoiler for In case you don't want to see my guesses:
Firstly, he can stop Kurisu's father getting the papers in the first place then destroy them himself. Secondly, he can reclaim the Metal-Upa from Kurisu's father to prevent the metal detector going off, leaving the plane to crash - destroying the papers.

@Fumoffu!!: The future Okabe needs the past Okabe to save Kurisu, I don't think it's enough for just the future Okabe to remember the three weeks. The past Okabe will ultimately be incited to save Kurisu having seen her 'dead', (an incontrovertible truth in the timeline, right?) so it needs to be trickery in order for her to survive as well. I think.

Offline ImperialX

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #81 on: September 07, 2011, 04:09:27 PM »
What about the reading Steiner? The Rintarou of 25 years in the future presumably has the reading steiner too, so he'd remember the three weeks. This has got me wondering about the different Okabe's in different world lines that all have reading steiners. Would they all have reading steiners? If they did, then what happens if two Okabe's in different world-lines both send D-Mails that changed the past and moved their world lines to the same world line as each other? I'm confused...

The Reading Steiner, as demonstrated, isn't omnipresent. It isn't a tool that allows the possessor to  access all the memories that all the different versions of himself experienced over all different timelines and world lines simultaneously. If it's able to do that, the entire story of Steins;Gate should have been a paradox since Rintarou of episode 1 should know absolutely everything that was going to happen in this series. Obviously he didn't. He had to go through all that to understand. It allows the user to RETAIN the memories of what that specific individual experienced  when traveling through time, but it does not grab memories from other versions of himself from other timelines and world lines and add them to the user's memories.

You can think of it this way - Nagato Yuki is omnipresent and she knows everything that happened in the past, is happening now and in the future in all different World lines because the brains and memories of all the different Nagato Yukis are synchronized to each other. The different Rintarous are not in sync. They do not pocesss the same memories despite all of them having the Reading Steiner, due to having experienced different things in their life journeys. Makes sense?

Another example - before iOS5, you can buy a song from the iTunes store on your Mac, but it won't be on your iPhone or iPad because it's not in sync. The iPhone and iPad still assumes it has the complete library, when in fact it doesn't. It doesn't know that the Mac which should have the same library has already bought a new song. When iOS5 launches in a few months and Apple introduces iCloud, all the devices will be wirelessly synced to each other. When you buy a new song on any device, it is synced to all your other devices. So when one change, all your devices see this change. Basically, Rintarou's ability doesn't have iCloud, so he cannot sync his memories across different versions of himself, while Yuki can. The different Yukis across time and World lines work the same way as iCloud, and everything is kept the same across all the different versions of herself.

I also definitely plan on watching episode 1 (and maybe 23) again to see just how they translate to each other.

Once you do you'll realize why this is the anime of the year.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 04:17:37 PM by ImperialX »

Offline Fumoffu!!

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #82 on: September 07, 2011, 06:22:00 PM »
Basically, Rintarou's ability doesn't have iCloud

Well, at least he isn't horribly insecure and prone to hacking.

Anyway, I feel I got misunderstood. In fact, I think I may just be confused. The Okabe of 15 years in the future worked as hard as he did because he stabbed Kurisu by accident, and that enabled the video D-Mail and the Time Machine to be built. If the current Okabe saves Kurisu, then the world line will change, but the Okabe 15 years in the future would retain his memories of himself stabbing Kurisu, and he'd know he would have to work to save Kurisu... Does the Reading Steiner only work for the person who actually did the change? Do both Okabe's get affected, or is it just the Okabe of the present that would move world lines, and the Okabe of the future would stay in the same world line in which Kurisu dies? But then he changed the past by sending the D-Mail, so he should be affected... hmmmm... Presumably, the moment the video D-Mail got sent back in time, the time line changed for the Okabe 25 years in the future, but he still retained his memories presumably...

Who is Okabe trying to fool? The Okabe that turns into the Okabe of 15 years in the future, or the Okabe that spends three weeks with Kurisu? Or is it another Okabe? Help me ImperialX!

Offline ImperialX

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #83 on: September 08, 2011, 02:32:36 AM »
Quite honestly, I think I already answered your questions in the two posts above. Maybe I wasn't very coherent in my posts.  :(

Anyway, it should be stated that Steins;Gate is a combination of many different World Lines. For instance, whenever Okarin travels back in time, it does not mean the World Line he just left disappears - it will carry on. When the past changes, a new World Line is born, and the old does not vanish. The Reading Steiner allows Okarin to retain his memories regardless of how much he travels and jumps between these World lines, going forward and backwards in time, etc. However, it does not sync the memories of the different Okarins in different World Lines. Have you read Katekyo Hitman Reborn? The Vongola Rings are a good analogy to what I'm saying right now. Basically the Reading Steiner works in a similar way as the Vongola rings in that it can keep the memory intact when traveling forward and backwards in time, but cannot sync memories in between World Lines between different Okabes. Mellifore Rings can keep the memories across different World lines.

When Okabe fools himself, he simply creates a new World Line - and the only World Line with the happy ending as we will see in the next episode. All the other World Lines lead to a bad end, which is not animated. However, they do exist. For example, Okarin travelled back whenever Mayushi dies. Every time he goes back he creates a new World Line, but that doesn't mean the timeline he just left ceases to exist. It still does. To make it even more clear, for instance, the first time Okabe went back in time was when the lab got raided by SERN. As soon as Okarin 'travelled' back, the camera goes to the new World line where Okabe with his new memories is just waking up. What the camera doesn't show is that in the World Line that he just 'left', Okabe is actually still there and probably got captured by SERN along with an injured Kurisu. This is a bad end that never gets shown in the anime. You have to realize that Okabe merely 'copies' his memories and send them back in time, creating a new World line. The old one still carries on into its own ending.

I'll say another example to reinforce. The World Line where Mayushii falls in front of the train still exists. Okarin sent hi memories back in time to create a new World line, yes, but as soon as he sent the memories back the camera changes to the new World line. If the camera stayed at the old World Line you will still see a devastated Okarin in the subway, crying over Mayushii's death. Only his memories go back in time, not himself.

I presume that by the end of Steins;Gate, there be one good end (ep 24) and over 9000 bad ends which are not shown to the audience, but still exist.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 02:39:39 AM by ImperialX »

Offline Fumoffu!!

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #84 on: September 08, 2011, 08:51:50 AM »
I understand now. Thanks for that.

Offline Jack Rav

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #85 on: September 08, 2011, 08:24:53 PM »
I also definitely plan on watching episode 1 (and maybe 23) again to see just how they translate to each other.

Once you do you'll realize why this is the anime of the year.

Damn...and I thought I had remembered episode 1 quite well; well, it has been over 5 months (damn). I totally forgot about the "15 minutes", the static, the shouting, Suzuha on the roof - I did remember about the Metal Upa though (that's what you mean by the pin, right? If not, what did you mean?).

I'd also forgotten other things mentioned offhand in the episode, so I'm wondering whether they will play a part on Okarin's plan to deceive himself...

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2011, 02:13:13 PM »
I mean, seriously, when did Steins;Gate decide to end so overwhelmingly optimistically?

Two minor bugs with this, for a mission that is so incredibly important, the plan was poorly thought out, and he didn't even bother to check anything. I can't believe that. If the entire future depends on getting the paper burnt, than I'd sure as hell just destroy the paper when the guy came in. As for the blood, well, I would have spilled the father's blood, which would have solved the paper issue at the same time.

The Series

Ideally I'd watch the entire series again, but unfortunately I can't unless I don't watch 24 episodes of another anime this month (damn internet limit). Lets weigh pros and cons:

Cons
  • Slow beginning
  • Questionable plot points
  • Lots of Mayushi Death

Pros
  • Great Story
  • Likable characters
  • Decent character development
  • The relationship between Okarin and Kurisu
  • Mayushi
  • Mayushi
  • Tutturū [Mayushi-desu]

Now, I know I said Mayushi twice, and also her catchphrase, but I think she is such a positive point, she needed mentioning thrice.

So, I'm going to give this anime a 9. It's barely a 9, but it is a 9, I thought I was giving it an 8 when I started writing this post, and I might drop it down in a while. We'll see.

Offline Jack Rav

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2011, 08:32:52 PM »
I'll write more on this series tomorrow; it's too late for me to consider doing at the moment. But, to address the concern of Fumoffu!! (about destroying the papers), the idea of the plan was to keep as much unchanged as possible. The past timeline showed that the Metal Upa would set off the metal detector, and that the plane would crash. It's more risky to do anything else other than replace the metal with something that wouldn't set off the metal detector; Okabe didn't know how the father would react to anything else. Also, if he killed the father he didn't know how Kurisu would react to the situation (it'd also mean his statement earlier in the series (that he would attempt to help Kurisu rebuild ties with her father) pointless). I'd admit that not checking the blood source was reckless, but meh; I'll talk more about this later.

In short; 10/10 from me - this goes straight in my Top 3.

Offline ImperialX

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2011, 10:56:55 PM »
24:

White Fox has reached KyoAni-tier VN adaptation skills.

For those people who think the ending was underwhelming, I believe it's due to waiting a whole week after episode 23 before watching this. To be honest, I really dislike watching anime as it airs, since waiting one week between each episode removes emotional impact, and it also hazes your memory. For shows such sophisticated and complicated as Steins;Gate and Penguindrum, unless you're prepared to rewatch the whole thing like I do, I strongly support Sorrow-kun's ideals of marathoning instead of watching weekly.

Anyway, if you watch 23 and 24 together, you will see that there's nothing underwhelming about 24. I seriously cannot find fault with this series. I don't even know what's stopping it from getting a 10/10, speaking from a cinematographic sense. I'm going to give it 9/10 anyway because...I dunno, it's just not Aria the Origination level amazing. That is how my 9/10s and 10/10s differ anyway, according to how I rate things.

My 8/10s have certain faults which I can name. I can't do that with Steins;Gate. If you want me to criticize it, I just can't make an argument that doesn't scream 'you're trying too hard'. For that reason I have to give it a 9/10. EDIT: After some thought and rewatching, I have decided that this series deserves a spot in my Top 19. Here is my updated list with Steins;Gate sitting at the 18th spot.

Also...bring on the movie! Awwwww yeah!

Slow beginning

It's a 24 episode series. I don't think any part of this show was poorly paced. People are too used to one-cour series in my opinion. The reason why we grow to love these characters so much when tragedy strikes is due to the first part.

Questionable plot points

Strange. I don't see any. Maybe it's because I played the VN, but I feel that the anime explained everything clearly enough.

Lots of Mayushi Death

How's that a con? It's what makes the series ever so powerful.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 11:19:01 PM by ImperialX »

Offline Jack Rav

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Re: Steins;Gate
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2011, 07:43:20 AM »
Okay, I'll write more now...

For the record, I was prepared to give this a 10 before the episode even ended; the 'optimistic' ending portrayed in the anime alone wasn't enough to give it a 10. Indeed, it is to the credit of the anime that what I thought would be an inevitability (OkabexKurisu) was left in doubt until the very end of the episode. There can't not have been incredulity and sadness, either, when Okabe resorted to having himself stabbed in order to replicate the blood at the scene of Kurisu's 'death'. I know I felt very aware of the fact that although Operation Skuld might end up successful, there was a real risk that our beloved protagonist might meet an abrupt end; I'd hope that too many weren't too cynical as to entirely discount the possibility.

I, too, would disagree with Fumoffu!'s 'cons' of the anime (obviously since 10/10); the beginning episode is one of the most confusing-yet-intriguing episodes of any anime I've seen. As Imperial has said, it's two-cour anyway - episode 12 would have had little impact if it occurred in, say, episode 5. Those first 11 episodes were essential to create attachment to the characters, and to set out what needed to be done for the remainder of the series. Episode 12 (and 13) also cannot be a con by any sense of the word ('lots of Mayushii Death') - I thought those episodes represented possibly the most memorable part of the series. Not sure I could name any Questionable Plot Points, but hey you're free to name any if you want; I won't discount the possibility..

Aside from my misgivings about Fumoffu!'s misgivings, and the excellent last two episodes, why does S;G deserve a place in my top 3 (alongside Aria and Monster, for those interested)? In a show which has at its centre a story about a man trying to save a girl (ultimately), it is essential that the relationship be grown realistically and for there to be real chemistry between the two characters concerned; this is what saved Gosick from mediocrity. I expressed my sentiments about the 'naturally strengthening' relationship between Okabe and Kurisu in episodes 10+11, and it's unquestionable that in later episodes this relationship developed further until the climax in episode 22 (who else was bitter that Okabe didn't hear the end of Kurisu's proclamation? :( )

The overarching story is what truly sends this in the upper echelons of anime I've seen, and likely will see for the remainder of the decade (early, I know, but it will be up there). The viewer is thrown into an (infuriating) sense of confusion following the first episode, and the episodes numbering up to and including 12 slowly reveal to the viewer what godly power Okabe has unwittingly realised, and the catastrophic effect tinkering with such powers can have (be it Mayushii dying or WWIII when Russia gets their hands on it); every cause will have an effect.

Throw into the mix a healthy dose of Mad Scientist insanity, 'My Fork', and one of the best laughs I've seen, and there you have it. Greatness.

P.S I would actually be inclined to disagree with marathoning this anime (aside from maybe the last 3). Having to wait a week between episodes 12 and 13 in particular was agony, and over the course of 5 months the details of episode 1 are forgotten; realising just what episode 1 actually contained after 5 months is a revelation rewarded for forced patience. I feel the effect could be lost if episode 1 had just been watched last week, say.

P.P.S. MOVIE **** yeah.

P.P.S. VN translation project? **** yeah.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 07:51:26 AM by Jack Rav »
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