The Nihon Review Forum

The Nihon Review Topic Discussion => Anime => Topic started by: Pebble on October 04, 2017, 11:40:54 AM

Title: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Pebble on October 04, 2017, 11:40:54 AM
1:

Well, you can't complain about the production value in this one. The songs are catchy too.

As for the rest...
-Its quite overblown, for better or worse.
-The PoV narration is done well enough.
-The competition has(needs?) no sensible reason for existing.
-Writing wants us to ignore a lot of plot-induced stupidity.
-It's also fairly predictable. If it does want to be beautiful, gory camp, then I'd say it needs to disrespect its own death flags a bit more.
-Everybody, crap your hans

Lastly,
-As far as its place in the rest of the show goes, this episode is likely quite the waste of potential, because its first ~15 minutes of characterization into Boar eventually get dumped into what is most likely just going to be a zombie.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 04, 2017, 01:12:33 PM
1:

Well that was something.  Quite a bit more than I was expecting, frankly, which was zero to begin with.  Pebble went over the most important parts:  it has great production values and is executed pretty well.  Like many other battle royal type themes, it already suffers from one of the most glaring problems:  why?

Well, maybe that isn't important.  This is all part of an organization who are apparently ultra powerful, including having the ability to grant any wish, even if that requires magic.  Since special powers have already been mentioned, it appears that this world is like our own but with a lot of metaphysical stuff being reality.  How open that metaphysical stuff is to the rest of the world remains to be seen, but like with the Fate universe, there are several "elite families" who are regularly involved in this.  I don't know exactly how warriors such as this can ever get to know each other without many of them dying beforehand, but our Boar knew quite a few of the others.  In any event, this thing happens, this thing is important, this thing carries prestige, and it is happening and we just have to deal with it.

The rest of it is kind of stupid.  The idea of the gems is okay until they revealed that the gems react with stomach acid to release a poison in the body.  That's okay for a time limit kind of setup which is what they were doing, but the problem arose where the referee admits that the gems may react with some people faster than the 12 hour limit.  Which makes sense from my perspective as a chemist, the environment in which a reaction is carried out is pretty damn important when considering rates of reaction and such.  Thing is, if the gems release the poison and kill the participant early, how is anybody supposed to recover the stupid thing?  Maybe they're just disqualified at that point and their gem doesn't matter.  I don't know.

I'm actually okay with Boar being set up from the beginning and then getting the ax at the end.  It isn't like she's a particularly good person or anything, so her getting killed is simple karma.  Much like Shiki, one of the main characters, or what we were led to believe as such, is killed early and left the audience with a bit of a jarred reaction.  I'm not sure she's "done" yet, though.  Fading to black at the end of an episode as a cliffhanger is open to interpretation.  Someone may rescue her last minute to serve their own purposes.  Monkey maybe.  Since Monkey is the "wise" character, undoubtedly she'll be a puppetmaster of sorts in a less literal sense than the Rabbit.  I loved how Monkey talking about it put the kibosh on the idea of having people coming back to life after this is over.  Like a big fat glaring neon sign saying "WE'RE NOT DOING THE MAI-HIME / AKUMA NO RIDDLE THING, SERIOUSLY YOU GUYS".

I'm intrigued, though I am turning my brain off and just enjoying this one for pure violent ridiculousness. 
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Zeitgeist on October 04, 2017, 08:35:11 PM
1:

absolutely zero interest in anything that occurred.
Impressive

Apparently this was created by Nisio Isin.

Where is my Twisted Metal anime?
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: gotarist on October 05, 2017, 12:08:57 PM
1:

Call me crazy but I think there might be more to this one than meets the eye - I'll report back after a few more episodes.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on October 08, 2017, 02:30:54 AM
1:

Ooh, I lurve this show.

I've never heard of the studio Graphinica, actually (apparently it did Hellsing OVAs, which I never watched). But it works like a Madhouse, so I ain't complaining. A deliciously stylish and violent show warrant slick production values, and Graphinica is delivering it, so I'm really happy.

Story-wise, I was already expecting some plot holes. I didn't really pay attention to the whole crystallized poison thing; it sounds like constructed bullshit to me to just keep the story going. I'm just happy to see that this show is basically a bloody battle royale with good action sequences. Nothing as complicated as say, Ousama Game will probably try to be. I'm a simple viewer, really.

Seems like there are still a number of animals not revealed yet. Boar/Pig is the first victim; and Ox and Sheep/Goat are touted as favorites. Usually, when the Chinese zodiac is concerned, it's usually the Rat or the Dragon who are dark horses (not to be confused with Horse), both of which are still unknown. I dig Rabbit's Mad-Hatter rendition; that's swell. Plus, I was wondering why the entire episode was narrated profusely from only the Boar's POV, but now I know: every episode will be told from first-person view in the style of Character of the Week. I actually like this.

I say bring it on. This is fun.

P.S. I'm born in 1986 so I back Tiger (or the Ox, since my birth date is in the beginning of January but whatever). Go #TeamTiger!
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Gadget on October 11, 2017, 06:37:44 AM
2
Some how, when chicken (or actually roaster) appears, I keep thinking of a scene from  Aho-girl

Sayaka: I'm A-kun san's friend. And I'm not ready for a relationship. (Tilt head, with pastel color background)
Aho's Mom: Sluttest line in the book.

And Dog fall for it.

It seems there are some people who want to stop the battle. But with all the back stabbing, I some how will doubt it. And it seems that Boar won the previous battle....by hiding until times up. And what is going to be interesting is that the different characters will have different styles. It seems they have one fighting stle, and one special ability.
Monkey; forming connection and negotiation. Planning, putting traps, forming alliance. Not sure of combat style.
Rat; unknown
Horse; Power and speed.
Dog; alter body chemistry to form or neutralize poison. CQB hand to hand combat
Boar;Long rang MG. Ability to reload?
Rabbit;Sabers fighting. Necromenist
Dragonnknown. Flamerthrower?
Ox;Speed?
Goat;explosion and traps?
Chicken;Communicate with birds. Powerful grip?
Dragon;???


Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Pebble on October 11, 2017, 11:17:54 AM
2:

-Writing wants us to ignore a lot of plot-induced stupidity.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on October 13, 2017, 05:19:23 AM
2:

The contestants are dying even before they got to fight.

EVERYBODY, SAY WITH ME: derpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderperpderp
derpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderpderperpderp
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 13, 2017, 12:31:54 PM
2:

Well, I mean, dogs are dumb, so yeah.  Also, nobody can beat the cock.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on October 13, 2017, 06:34:14 PM
If their animal sign is representative of their character, I'm intrigued. It would make a lot of sense for other animals: the Monkey and Rat are the cunning ones, the Goat is wise, etc.

But Dragon dead from the onset? So sed.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 13, 2017, 07:17:55 PM
Dragons don't exist.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Gadget on October 17, 2017, 08:49:54 PM
3
Give a character some back ground story, then kill them.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 18, 2017, 01:09:01 AM
3:

Well, if they're going to keep this up, I don't now why we should care who wins this stupid thing.  This is just like the Grail War from Fate, it doesn't make any sense that these groups are so hard up to win the damn thing.  In the Grail War, apparently whomever wins gets a wish, but that's one person, not the entire family.  What does the family get out of it?  What do these groups get out of it?  Prestige?  To whom?  Each other?  Having big Illuminati moments like this is bad storywriting because at the end of the day, nobody can relate to any of this.  Even for "brain off" mindless fun, you can't get around the fact that most of this crap never makes a lick of sense.

But for this, we don't now any of the characters until they're dead.  Are we supposed to get to know Ox from his killing the others?  Are we supposed to root for any of these people?  They all seem like terrible human beings to me, so how can any of us actually give a shit if they live or die?  Also, why do the competitors have to die in the first place?  Wouldn't the risk of losing a highly skilled killer / warrior be a rather significant problem for many of these war economy families?  Why would they put together something where 11 of them are going to lose their monetary interests?  I'm back to none of this making sense again.

But I'm stuck with it, because I don't know who Ox, Rat, Monkey, Rabbit, Dragon... who the **** is even left anyway?  I don't really care!  I don't know them, I don't give a shit.  The narrative style is to tell us who they are and then kill them.  Great.  Since the battles are pretty stupid at the moment, with Ox literally killing Bird in one hit, we don't even have flashy action to look forward to most of the time.  Boar getting eaten and dismembered by birds was pretty cool, I guess, when it happened to Asuka in Evangelion.

I just... I don't know what the hell the point of this damn thing is.  Entertainment, making money, yeah I get it, but I mean for the audience what are they supposed to take away from this?  I don't see anything.  Great animation, shit execution.  That's it.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on October 18, 2017, 05:06:34 AM
3:

Meh, I never cared about the whole backstory. The point is, it's a battle royale. And battle royale is all about how each contestant bites the dust eventually.

I can confirm the pattern of the show. Every Zodiac Sign of the Week means that he/she is going to die, with some backstory to tell and his/her thinking process which would eventually leads up to his/her demise. Yes, it's becoming predictable, albeit still fun; every one of them is dying because of some under-estimation. But I like how there's a bit of karma here: Niwatori wouldn't have died had she not left the sewers, or even before that, had she not gotten Dotsuki's ability.

Plus, the following is also becoming obvious, unfortunately: they are all dying according to reverse order of the zodiac. Just look at the chart: the Boar/Pig is the last, followed by the Dog, and then (you guessed it) the Chicken/Rooster. What is the first sign (i.e. last man to stand)? The Rat, followed by the Ox. And who's next in line after the Rooster? *SURPRISE*, if you haven't seen the preview for next episode by now.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 24, 2017, 08:50:43 PM
4:

Monkey doesn't even make sense within her own philosophy.  These are not the kinds of people she can end wars with, this is not the kind of organization she can end either, so what the hell is she doing here?  Mandatory participation is an interesting wrinkle, because it didn't seem like it was before now.  It seemed like every family or organization trained a warrior to participate because they wanted something from it.  Why bother training someone so hard if they're going to be forced into a death battle royal?  I said this last time, but none of this shit makes sense for anybody.  Knowing it is mandatory makes a little more sense, and we know the organization behind the thing is ZE ULTIMATE PUPPETMASTAH POWAH illuminati thing, but it sure seems to me that the organization only picks warriors from groups who are reliant on war economies.  Even Monkey herself, in a way, needs war to keep up what she's doing.  While I am sure she would somehow find a way to be happy and productive without war, without war she would current lose her purpose in life.  In this way, she doesn't even understand herself.  Rat calls her out on it, but their philosophies don't line up at all, so it is hard to reconcile those points of view.

Here's the thing, though, this has happened before with these warriors.  It took me a second to realize it, but there has always been something about Rat that has bugged me from the beginning, and now I know what it is.  This specific battle between these specific warriors has happened before, and we're in a Groundhog Day loop.  Rat has muttered a couple of times about how Monkey is "always like this" despite them never having met before to either of their knowledge.  Other fighters have commented on a strange feeling of deja vu.  With the wishes being capable of being granted, no matter how impossible they seem (I mean, Monkey is confident she can use the wish to bring everybody back to life, and she wouldn't be confident in that if it weren't possible for this organization somehow), then the organization can certainly warp everybody back in time to the beginning and start over again.  Rat is also completely lax about everything, but we wrote this off as a character quirk.  It isn't a character quirk.  He's lazy and disinterested because he KNOWS nothing is going to happen until certain points.  He knows Chicken is now dead, and he knows that Monkey is the one who "weakened" her.  He mentions that Monkey is not going to influence him like she did Chicken, but I think she already has.  Rat is comfortable around Monkey, and has no worries whatsoever about being attacked. Why would this strange situation occur when they're all battle hardened veterans?  None of the others trust the others long enough for a partnership.  Dog was suspicious of Chicken, but just underestimated her, and planned to backstab her when the time came.  Chicken just beat him to it.  There is nothing of the sort here between Rat and Monkey.  Rat has had numerous opportunities to kill Monkey (and Chicken), and hasn't done so, and doesn't expect it to happen back either.  He knows it wont happen.

Who planted the explosives at the beginning to destroy the floor?  Boar blames it on Monkey, but Monkey doesn't confirm or deny it.  Rat knew they were there, and may have planted them himself.  It was his way of trying a different route.  Rat has won this already once, and wants to try a different route.  Maybe he was actually influenced by Monkey already, and wants to see what would happen if her wish came true.  Why Rat didn't just invoke her wish before I can't say right now, but maybe he wants her to win for another reason.  Maybe he is tired of all this rubbish and fighting, and wants to see where her plan would lead, but last time he never got to see it because she died, probably here at this moment.  Maybe he does want to know how to reconcile the idea of saving lives means also saving people who will be scumbags as well.  I don't know.  I just know I'm right.

*EDIT*

I went and spoilered myself, and nope, I was on the right track, but not quite insane enough to understand Nisioisin.  Now that I know how this goes and ends, God ****ing damn is this stupid.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on October 25, 2017, 05:59:32 AM
4:

Not sure if Monkey is gonna die right now; by order, she should.

But it's quite morbid to think that she needs wars in order to fulfill her purpose, whether she recognizes it or not. It's like doctors who wish for more diseases so that he has a job to do. Or a cop who wants more crimes. That's quite messed up.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Gadget on October 25, 2017, 08:31:45 AM
4
There will always be conflict, just like there are more sick people than doctors.

I think the just let Monkey (Hayami, Saori) do some one person ranting again.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Equilibrium on October 25, 2017, 12:20:19 PM
4.

I hope they won't kill off the monkey now to keep the order of who's gonna die unpredictable. Was quite disapointed to realise that the order would be to the zodiac....so hoping it will be just the way to showcase the motivations of all of the participants. I want my popcorn show to be stupid and have a winner that is not obvious. With noice animation.... it wasn't that noice this time....
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on November 01, 2017, 06:24:02 AM
5:

So... apparently, this Zodiac War is merely an answer to global conflict without major casualties. But the catch is, the wish is granted to the Warrior, not the organization he/she is representing. Yeah, I don't get the whole story.

But it's becoming predictable how each Warrior get its demise: he/she always severely underestimates someone. As a viewer, I find it strange that the Tiger, one of the strongest signs in the zodiac, has been flying under the radar the entire time. It's obvious that the Rat is the most mysterious and thus probably the eventual winner (the show is practically begging us to think so), and Sheep is getting his comeuppance for underestimating the Tiger.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on November 08, 2017, 06:07:36 AM
6:

Oh, so everyone is dying according to plan. Well, that confirms the whole story.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Equilibrium on November 08, 2017, 07:22:54 AM
6.

What AC says makes me very sad... had some hope for unpredictability...
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 08, 2017, 06:33:05 PM
Yep.  I think we can see why this isn't regarded as one of Nisioisin's better works.  It is also a prequel to a one shot manga, neither of which really went anywhere.  I'm not even sure why this got adapted, as it feels like one of those rambling ideas you come up with and then realize is stupid then don't use it.

"Hey, let's do a battle royal.  The warriors are all symbols of the zodiac, and get this!  They'll all die off in the order of the zodiac!  Nobody will see that coming!  It'll be rad!"

Should have been crumpled up and thrown in the trash, or refined heavily.  I don't even know what the purpose of the story is at this point.  The usual "brain off, have fun" things get kind of broken when you realize the heavy spoilers are actually obvious, and then we have episodes like this where the Sheep is taken out in one quick moment of totally not interesting, the Horse dies due to smoke inhalation, and Monkey dies because... well okay Rabbit was a little clever on this one I guess.  All three deaths have one thing in common, though: the warrior in question was too stupid to live.

Sheep underestimated his opponent like a complete buffoon and went against everything he was trying to avoid.  As one of the only people who never swallowed the poison, he should have just ****ing hid the whole time, setting up bomb traps if people got close, then wash-rinse-repeat until the game is over.  Instead, he decides to... what was he trying to do again?  Negotiate with his jewel?  This was his plan?  Imbecile.

Horse... **** horse.  That was so stupid I don't even want to talk about it.  Horse has easily been the worst character in this show, and that's pretty bad when you consider one of them died before we even knew what kind of personality he had.

Monkey was stupid for pursuing her enemy.  She also underestimates him in thinking he's not that skilled.  Maybe he wasn't, but I don't know what she hoped to gain from all this.  She should have just let him go, hooked back up with Rat, and kept going.  What kind of pacifism is it if you force your enemy to retreat, achieve a peaceful situation, and then AGGRESSIVELY FOLLOW THEM TO NEGOTIATE THE **** OUT OF THEM!  That's not pacifism.  She was ****ing stupid.

Stupid stupid stupid.  Snake and Dragon, two characters we haven't even ****ing interacted with yet, are going to die next episode, and nobody will care.  The only thing I am curious about right now is how Rabbit is going to die before Tiger, and how Rat gets out of this nonsense as the winner.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on November 09, 2017, 03:18:42 AM
And you know what the cream of the crop is about all this? Every one of them is not dying to the better warrior; it's just their own complacency.

Boar, Dog, Rooster, Monkey, Sheep... well, only the Horse died because he's a chicken.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 09, 2017, 03:39:38 AM
This seems to be just another Nisioisin troll job, frankly.  I can't explain why the hell he'd write this.  The other thing is that this is just a "brutal" and surreal recounting of the famous story of the zodiac animals and their race to the Emperor (see Fruits Basket for reference if you need).  So, again, the point of this is utterly lost on me.  I know it is a prequel for a one shot manga, but if he was trying to start a new franchise with this nonsense, well he dun ****ed up.  Only other thing I have is "troll".
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Gadget on November 09, 2017, 04:43:19 AM
To quote Duodecuple

EVERYBODY, Clap your hands.

For what?
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: SQA on November 09, 2017, 11:06:29 PM
This seems to be just another Nisioisin troll job, frankly.  I can't explain why the hell he'd write this.  The other thing is that this is just a "brutal" and surreal recounting of the famous story of the zodiac animals and their race to the Emperor (see Fruits Basket for reference if you need).  So, again, the point of this is utterly lost on me.  I know it is a prequel for a one shot manga, but if he was trying to start a new franchise with this nonsense, well he dun ****ed up.  Only other thing I have is "troll".

Prolific writers can occasionally get a bad idea, write a lot of it, submit it, and suddenly it's being printed. Occasionally, it's their best work, normally it's something that keep embarrassing them that they wrote. And being Japan, sometimes a producer thinks, "hey, let's make this!".

It's best to just laugh your way to the bank with the royalty check.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Gadget on November 15, 2017, 08:09:24 AM

But it's becoming predictable how each Warrior get its demise: he/she always severely underestimates someone.

7
This has taken to a ridiculous scale. Underestimating a headless corps that got both he's arm chopped off and lead to his arms choking you to death.

In the mean time, rabbit collecting dead bodies for his army. Pity horse got 'well done'. His cybernetic body would be useful for rabbit's army.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Gadget on November 24, 2017, 09:14:38 PM
8
Now we a shown a court system for 'internal discipline'. So the 12 families are warriors, not simple mass killers. So they have this system of no innocent bystander' killing?

SO it's like built your reputation, an then we use you in a human hunting bet.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on November 25, 2017, 04:52:22 AM
7-8:

...seriously, what's the f**king point of the brothers' backstory? The courtroom drama, the robberies, the wealth redistribution... what's the point of all this? The show seems to put in a lot of effort telling the backstory when it's awfully trivial in the grand scheme of things.

And christ, is the animation terrible this time round.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 28, 2017, 03:29:17 PM
9:

Pfft.  Now the animation department is having problems.  Weirdly enough, I think I liked the CG shots better than the regular stuff.  If you're going to make a shitty anime, might as well go full bonkers.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on November 29, 2017, 07:33:48 AM
9:

I dunno, that whole fight scene between Snake and Tiger was really good. It's just inconsistent: awesome for some, shitty for others.

So uhh, where does Monkey fit in all of this? She's dead but not dead-dead, right?
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Gadget on November 29, 2017, 07:36:48 AM
9

It seems all the creativity went into Ox Tiger vs the Reptile Brothers. And they ran out of ideas for the rabbit battle.
. The back stories are pointless fillers.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on December 07, 2017, 05:43:52 AM
10:

Tiger was pissed at Ox because Senpai never noticed her.

If you think this sounds ridiculous, that's because it really is.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 07, 2017, 11:52:43 AM
Considering how this bullshit has gone, that actually might be the MOST ridiculous thing they've done yet.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Gadget on December 09, 2017, 10:47:13 AM
Which one? Tiger's reason for the personal duel, or being chase by rabbit's intestine?
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: AC on December 13, 2017, 05:46:00 AM
11:

Oh there's Rabbit, right there.

I'm not sure which is more ludicrous: Ox believing that chunky bits of Rabbit assembled themselves like Voltron, or explaining every word of the plot for us. Even if Rat's powers seem clever, I just can't get over how ridiculous Ox's death was. Ox can't move, Monkey must only pin him down, and Rabbit's too busy assembling himself, hence they all must die.

Uh huh.
Title: Re: Juuni Taisen
Post by: Gadget on December 13, 2017, 09:46:09 AM
11
I thought Rabbit reassemble himself like the Iron Giant animation. But it was more fascinating. Like all deaths, it was anti climatic. Soooo Ox did remember Tiger.....

So Rat's power is like Endless Summer Arc from The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya with Re Zero start from a save point, in a Stain:Gate way. It still does not explain how he got in an out from the vault with Ox.