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The Nihon Review Topic Discussion => Anime => Topic started by: Shadowmage on October 04, 2014, 01:12:49 PM

Title: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on October 04, 2014, 01:12:49 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/Vklnoyn.jpg)

Episode 0

It seems that Ufotable wants to adapt the Visual Novel in its entirety.  This episode spends 47 minutes going over the prologue of FS/N.  The only scene I can recall that's missing is the dialogue at the park where the last grail exploded killing countless innocents (or did this come later on?).  Regardless, unlike the introduction to Fate/Zero there actually are fight scenes to kick up the pace.  So long as the show doesn't run out of money, it should be quite a ride.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on October 04, 2014, 01:22:27 PM
Episode 0: Prologue

Quite the different intro from F/Z where the prequel gave us some insight on the different masters.  This time, they focus and establish the relationship between and Archer whose identity we all probably know by now a long time ago.  The amount of personality and schtick was quite welcoming and enjoyable.  Not to mention, the Archer/Lancer fight was pretty good and I got hyped when it looked like Lancer was about to use Gae Bolg. Overall, great job by Ufotable and I have faith in this being just as good (if not better) then F/Z.  Next episode will give us that famous scene where Shirou summons Saber which will be awesome.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on October 04, 2014, 01:45:11 PM
Well it didn't redefine my very existence as an anime fan like the ad campaign seemed to imply it would but that was a pretty lively one hour premiere following on the footsteps of Gundam.  I was expecting something a lot more grimdark, stiff, gloomy and ultra serious in tone but that wasn't really the case.  It never really felt like the show was trying to invoke moods or ideas other than what was appropriate for the kinds of scenes that were on display or tilting overtly in one direction on the moral compass towards lawful evil like it always felt Fate/Zero was trying to voice it's approval of as the strongest possible alignment and set of beliefs for fantasy characters.  Rin to me was the biggest surprise not being all ice cold and stiff but more just sort of seemingly being in the grail war for the fun of it to start before she realizes that it's having some nasty side effects on people from her school and putting innocent bystanders in danger.  I can see why people call her a classical tsundere from this premiere just based on her relative lack of maturity but still trying to play it up like she's all kinds of ready to get going.

What a far cry from the stiff, stoic "the ends justify the means" and "I am a man that knows no joy" approach of Kiritsugu and Kotomine from Zero and how they started off where it felt like Kiritsugu who is supposed to be the hero of the story the viewer is meant to identify with wouldn't even think to save an innocent bystander in mortal danger even if he could and just blow right through them in his own right if it meant he could achieve his goals which somehow apparently revolved around world peace a few minutes faster.  Like to me that whole energy siphoning thing that Rin was put off by is exactly the kind of plan that Kiritsugu would have come up with so to see her not be okay with that to start is generally an encouraging sign cause really who in there right mind would be at that age.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on October 04, 2014, 03:54:20 PM
Quote
What a far cry from the stiff, stoic "the ends justify the means" and "I am a man that knows no joy" approach of Kiritsugu and Kotomine from Zero and how they started off where it felt like Kiritsugu who is supposed to be the hero of the story the viewer is meant to identify ....

In Fate/Zero Kiritsugu is never the character who the viewer/reader is meant to identify with. Nobody was in fact.

Fate/Zero was written as a companion piece to Fate/Stay Night, but different in mood and tone (Originally meant to be read after). In Fate/Stay Night Shirou is the caracter who we are supposed to identify, the narration is in first person. The narrative in Fate/Zero is in third person for the most part, distant and cold, purposely to make a contrast with Fate/Stay Night. The contrast is used to set the different mood of that story.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on October 04, 2014, 06:20:22 PM
Episode 0:
After all these years a proper adaption of the best route in F/SN is finally here. Nothing really to complain here. They did take out exposition but since most of it is repeated again, it doesn't really matter. They did cut out the scene in the park, but it seems only for the TV version.

And Rin still is best girl.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on October 04, 2014, 06:46:05 PM
0:

Archer is so GAR and Rin's nose looks weird. Lancer's expressions was spot on too.

More serious things aside,This is a much more enjoyable first episode than Fate/Zero and the difference between the tone of the two works clearly shows here. The animation, as always ufotable delivers. The talking is much more visually entertaining than F/Z's stiff talking heads though i hope the budget and the animation will be at least consistent till episode 12. The Lancer and Archer fight was visually stunning and got my blood pumping and did i just seriously hear the Hans Zimmer inception deep notes during the fight?

This episode adapts the prologue and Rin's PoV. Next epiosde will be an another 47 minutes and this time, Emiya Shirou's PoV. Next saturday can't come sooner!
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on October 05, 2014, 12:57:53 AM
0:

I need new pants. That is all.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 06, 2014, 11:36:02 PM
0:

/popcorn
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on October 11, 2014, 06:07:13 PM
1

And so F/SN begins in proper.  It seems that this adaptation is going to keep all the cooking scenes, the everyday school life scenes and the various internal expositions that builds the characters and world.  The thing that seems to be excised is the explanation of combat abilities, going for a "show not tell" approach.  The Lancer/Saber fight was exceptionally well realized and may have even topped the Lancer/Archer engagement.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on October 11, 2014, 06:11:58 PM
1: The OP and ED were good. I like action scenes in the OP and dat Kalafina ED!

So we get to see more insight about Shirou's Characterization than the previous one adaptation and i do hope that people will have a different perspective on this Shirou than the previous ones. As always the action between Saber and Lancer was good but i still think the Archer and Lancer was better personally. That Gae bolg scene was made more intense with the still frame and slow mo
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on October 11, 2014, 06:40:57 PM
1:
Once again the fight scenes were excellent. I really have no complaints about them and actually find them better then Fate/Zero.

The Opening and Ending were great too,though I liked the ending more.

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on October 12, 2014, 12:54:01 AM
Episode 1

It is nice to see a little more perspective between Kiritsugu and Shirou since we never got as much.  Not only that, it seems the "Tiger" got to show a little more of that famous personality as well.  The duel between Saber and Lancer kicked ass, especially once Gae Bolg was unleashed.  The series is off to a really good start and they should be able to keep the ball rolling.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on October 13, 2014, 05:54:11 PM
0, 1:

You can see the effort bleeding out of every pore of this adaptation. Also Rin.

The more subtle nods to F/Z, like the faded magic circle thing in the shed, are much appreciated too; they elevate what would otherwise be a bit of a plodding episode. Hell, the whole of episode 1 is woven together quite delightfully.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on October 15, 2014, 07:58:23 AM
I am going to engage in Rin fanboying throughout this whole series. It's funny that initially I didn't like her at all, but by god she's one of the best visual novel females there is.

Oh yeah and ufotable, always the lovely bunch they are. Now this is how you adapt a visual novel properly.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on October 18, 2014, 11:12:32 AM
2

So this is how they'll make the UBW arc 26 episodes.  Even though it's condensed from the visual novel, taking the entire episode to explain the Holy Grail war is kind of excessive.  The show could have pulled it off if the entire series had hour long episodes like 1 and 0, but the pacing suffers tremendously in the current format.  They even had Kotomine walk an entire rotation around his church to break up the tedium.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on October 18, 2014, 12:51:07 PM
Episode 2

Some people might complain about this episode after knowing the basics from F/Z.  Personally, I have no problem with it since we didn't even get this much from Studio Deen's adaptation.  It was a decent setup episode and the cliffhanger at the end was rewarding with Ilya and Berserker's appearance.  Next episode is going to be a lot of fun.  Also, it is nice to still see Kirei have a grudge against Kiritsugu too.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on October 18, 2014, 12:58:42 PM
This episode is necessary. The holy grail exposition is hard to convey in another way, and cut information this crucial is a bad thing.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on October 18, 2014, 05:22:57 PM
2:

Once Kirei was being encircled by Tokiomi and his father while talking exposition, now he is the one who does it to Shirou.

The time flies so fast that before i even knew that Berserker already appeared even though this is an exposition episode. Next episode is gonna be so action packed.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on October 18, 2014, 06:45:06 PM
2:
To be honest I could have done without the more exaggerated reaction from Rin when lamenting she couldn't have Saber. Her reaction was much more subdued in the VN. Luckily it wasn't awful or anything, like I was fearing.

Other than that I have once again no complaints. Its a sign of good direction and pacing that a full exposition episode could last 10 minutes. And the very end (With that epic OST) was just icing on the cake. Next episode Fate fully diverges into UBW.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on October 18, 2014, 07:59:10 PM
Just have to chime in here that I hope the anime is done in such a manner that it can be a sufficient entry gate into the Fate universe for newer fans. I'm tired of having to tell people to read the VN first instead of watching DEEN/Stay night. The info dump was also done extremely well and Jouji Nakata's voice is as mesmerising as ever. Really loving Ufotable's work so far. My only real complaint is sometimes they animate too much exaggerated motion with the characters like MCAL pointed out. It's a minor one, but it can feel a little silly sometimes lol.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on October 18, 2014, 08:15:55 PM
Ufotable are big Rin fanboys so they just had to make it like that to make it more moe  ;D
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on October 18, 2014, 08:28:27 PM
Hey, I'm a big a Rin fanboy as they come ;D (She's basically the reason I like tsunderes in the first place), but a little restraint would serve Ufotable well.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on October 18, 2014, 09:57:37 PM
Rin is great. Making a point of wagging her ass at the audience isn't.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on October 20, 2014, 12:37:09 PM
Fate this, Fate that, Rin this, Saber that, rinse repeat.  This season in a nutshell when it comes to internet discussion pretty much.  Good enough episode even if it focused a bit on one of my least favorite characters in the franchise (Kotomine comes off a little better here than in his other iterations though for sure), but man I'd be lying if I said I was as obsessed with this show and it's premise as everyone else seems to be and the constant exposure to and trumpeting of it everywhere I go is getting pretty exhausting.  Oi Vey I feel like I'm at comic book convention sometimes the way my casual interest in this franchise clashes with the hardcore level on which everyone else seems to approach it.  It's almost a little too much too take in in a way and getting a little tiring when every other show feels like it's constantly being compared to this one like the expectation is that this is the sole gold standard to live up to.  Also there's apparently right and wrong ways to watch and approach this franchise and I've been told I don't know how many times in the last week that I'm doing it wrong to the point where I'm more or less implying that people need to back the hell off already and just let me watch and comment on the damn show in my own way and if they don't like my approach to it then that's just kind of tough. 

It's kind of turned it into a bit of an ironic watch for me even as I kind of enjoy it (more than Fate/Zero for example), I mean when I think about it apparently the big show to "save anime" this year and, pardon the pun, the perceived holy grail and highest possible standard of TV anime series is a remake adaptation of a 10 year old visual novel.  Now this a medium I admit I don't have particularly that much respect for (way too otaku oriented for my tastes) and thus I see that as kind of a bad sign for where anime is at right now (at least as far as my tastes are concerned) and where it's probably heading even as I do see some good signs out there as well in what's coming up.  I just find myself asking is being beholden to a decade old otaku phenomenon and a story that's already been told several times now (and will be told again with the coming movies) really the best TV anime can aspire too?  Are original made for TV series just kind of doomed to die out and we're stuck with Visual Novels and Light Novels as the big source of entertainment and things to look forward to in this medium cause at least from my perspective that seems pretty shitty as an outlook.

Though considering I'm pretty much just in the last stages of finishing up my backlog before peacing out of participating in discussions (or as I've come to call it the people point out how I'm always wrong and have bad taste show) and watching anime for the year it's not like these questions are going to matter in the long run anyway.  That was the 3rd to last one, after this it's Bahamut then Space Dandy and that's the end of that for now.  :)  It's certainly been an interesting and very enlightening year for anime and how I perceive the culture of the hobby though I'll say that much, I feel like I've learned a lot, some things I'm glad to have, other things I'd really rather have not known or become aware of that kind of sicken me in a way.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on October 20, 2014, 01:14:50 PM
Info dumping, we meet again.

I do worry because that's kind of nasu's biggest weakness in writing fate that they'll infodump a little too often. Don't get me wrong some things are necessary to explain due to the complexity but I think they need to find more clever and entertaining ways then simply lecturuing the audience about the ins and outs on how something works for a good while.

As for Fate being hype, I think its simply because...it's one of the most popular visual novels that never got a proper adaption. You would probably hear similar hype to a proper Umineko adaption. Now is FSN going to save anime? No that's always an exaggeration. However I do believe it can be a fairly enjoyable show with nice visuals and good directing (hopefully) due to ufotable. There aren't too many dark shounens out there either, so its a nice mixup from the usual for fun ones. Basically its a nice substitute for HxH since that ended (though it won't be as good). But yeah fanboy screams are loud because they are.

For me, it's just nice when anime takes its time to care about the directing. I've noticed I've been more anal about that lately with anime and ones with shoddy directing I can't even enjoy.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on October 20, 2014, 01:37:17 PM
What's wrong with info dumping? Togashi is king of that xD.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on October 20, 2014, 03:11:57 PM
0-2:

I am simply not that excited. I will note that Rin seems to be a delightful character, but when I compare this to Fate/Zero, it is simply lacking in weight.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on October 20, 2014, 04:22:21 PM
Also there's apparently right and wrong ways to watch and approach this franchise and I've been told I don't know how many times in the last week that I'm doing it wrong

That's true of about any franchise, to a degree. "Right" and "wrong" are admittedly very loaded terms, but there are ways of approaching franchises that will result in varying degrees of enjoyment. There's very certainly ways you can ruin a potentially enjoyable show for yourself, as well as ways you can enjoy a show you would otherwise dislike (or initially did). I'd cite the cliched examples of approaching romcoms looking for 'splosions, soft-fantasy looking for magic systems, or scifi looking for actual science, but it underplays the very real question of where to draw the line between 'what I should do for the show' and 'what the show should do for me'.

There's no solid answer to this as far as I can see. Saying that the audience should "work" to enjoy shows has always been an unpopular solution and critics like to rail at how this translates into blindly loving everything1; saying that the show should "cater to my tastes" risks narrow-mindedness and is unworkable for creators, which means that the audience as a whole yields no constructive criticism (since it just throws a flood of contradicting demands at creators); and trying to draw out some middle-ground often means that people just pick one extreme in practice, the only difference being that they keep up pretenses of moderation. Let's also not forget the generally unresolved tussles over where to draw the line between the two.


1(NO IT DOESN'T)
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on October 20, 2014, 05:09:59 PM
Info dumping, we meet again.

I do worry because that's kind of nasu's biggest weakness in writing fate that they'll infodump a little too often. Don't get me wrong some things are necessary to explain due to the complexity but I think they need to find more clever and entertaining ways then simply lecturuing the audience about the ins and outs on how something works for a good while.

And ufotable's solution for that(somehow) is Kirei walking in circle to Shirou and Rin.

(http://i.imgur.com/NkfP3L5.gif)

Really, there is nothing much you can do about info dumping being entertaining unless the audience itself find the infos to be interesting. And as much as some people don't like the info dumping, you have to understand that this show is meant to be stand alone and Fate/Zero was really just a supplementary material to F/SN.

What's wrong with info dumping? Togashi is king of that xD.

I still think Nasu is more info dumpy. I have read the VN years ago and i still somewhat remember he repeats the same stuff over and over again especially when it comes to the Holy Grail and the Servants.

0-2:

I am simply not that excited. I will note that Rin seems to be a delightful character, but when I compare this to Fate/Zero, it is simply lacking in weight.

Maybe you will enjoy Heaven's feel more once it aired. The tone is the same only i'd say that HF is much more darker.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 20, 2014, 09:28:48 PM
Quote
And ufotable's solution for that(somehow) is Kirei walking in circle to Shirou and Rin.

I thought that was appropriate, for exactly the reason shown in your gif.  It is an implication that Kirei has come full circle from being an emotionless robot who doesn't know or care for the holy grail war to an obsessed egomaniac who wants to use the war for his own ends.  He has become his father and Tohsaka at the same time.

To pander to KS's ego here a bit, I think the problem with Fate is the hype.  Yes, it has been around for 10 years.  Yes, people adore it.  Yes, the DEEN adaptation sucked.  But hyperbolic comments are going to be made by a rabid fanbase over whatever new incarnation of their beloved shit comes along.  As such, UFOTable is doing the right thing by making sure that the show is directed towards the people who know jack shit about the Nasuverse, rather than those who do.  If you wanted fanwank, go watch Carnival Phantasm.  This is for all audiences, and I appreciate it as such.

But, seriously, if asinine ****hole comments like "this is going to save anime!" bother you, then you're a ****ing imbecile.  People say that shit all the time about whatever "hype" show comes out or is done by a "hype" studio.  Ignore them.  You are allowing the fans to ruin your fun, and that's your own damn fault.  Fans suck; fanbases suck, that doesn't mean the show does nor does it mean the medium that it is part of does.  Enjoy shit on your own levels and for your own tastes and merits.  Stop giving two shits what a gaggle of dumbasses think.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on October 21, 2014, 05:51:35 AM
What's wrong with info dumping? Togashi is king of that xD.

Well yeah, and even he went a bit too far with it. I don't think info-dumping is necessarily bad as long as its not done in excessive amounts, because it kind of becomes a necessary evil for complex plots and complex mechanics in plots like. And like redgrave said, it depends on how interested the audience is on the content of the info-dumping.

But yeah I hope they tone it down a lot from the visual novel regardless. I think I tuned out a lot of the explanations.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on October 21, 2014, 03:43:51 PM
Well to talk more specifically about this incident of info dumping I think it's important to take into consideration what some of this information means to Shirou and how it ultimately compelled him to get involved in the war. It's effective not just because it clues the audience in, but because it sets up fundamental characterization and conflicts that he will have to deal with throughout the story. Some of what you're talking about isn't even going to be much of a factor in the anime since it's just monologues reiterating what we already knew and visual mediums don't tend to include these sorts of observational details in speech. One thing I wanted to see in this anime is basically a polishing of the original story and so far I trust ufotable enough to get it done.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on October 22, 2014, 07:00:44 AM
Not to be unclear I'm ok with the information given here. It's necessary for the audience to explain the core story and its just standard exposition to me. Plus at least ufotable knows how to create atmosphere. I'm actually pretty glad they aren't locking themselves down to just use the game soundtrack. Though FSN really reminds me of Kara No Kyoukai's soundtrack more than fate/zeros, which is nice.

I do wonder what they are implying by the circle walk around though. Perhaps looking at a character and analysing them from all angles? Or perhaps they are trying to say who is the superior person by...some means that I have trouble explaining.

Or maybe they are just all adhd like me and can't stand standing still and need to walk around while they talk.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on October 23, 2014, 07:24:42 PM
2:

Guys why are there two of those red jewels of Rin's? Shirou has one, and Rin has one. Ho?

Also Kirei is lying. You can give up your command spells and role as a Master (I remember from El-Melloi from F/Zero) but he doesn't want Shirou to know. Is this is the old Kirisugu-Kirei feud here again? Kirei wants Shirou to die? Seems plausible to me.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on October 23, 2014, 10:34:17 PM
You're forgetting that the contract with Lancer in zero was done by both of them. Shirou didn't do a dual contract with Saber. Still there is a way to give up his command seals, it just might make him paralyzed lol. Nonetheless, he could always use up all his command seals, so the command seals aren't exactly the problem.

EDIT:

Actually you must be talking about the reward he got from Risei. The official explanation is:

Quote
Lost Command Spells are reclaimed by the Grail during the Holy Grail War and can be redistributed to new contractors who take on a Servant who has lost their Master. While searching for new Masters, it will prioritize those who had been previously chosen. The Church provides protection to Masters without Servants for the reason of them having greater chance of obtaining leftover Command Spells. Masters aim to kill other Masters rather than simply cut off their combat effectiveness so that they will not be able to take up another contract in the future. Of the Command Spells that are left after the Holy Grail War, they are amassed in the hands of the supervisor and commissioned for safekeeping. It is possible to keep a contract after the Holy Grail War has ended, as the only issue is the added strain on the magus after the support from the Grail in the upkeep of the Servant stops.

So basically you can only give away the command spells amassed from previous wars.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on October 25, 2014, 11:15:02 AM
3

Truly unlimited budget works.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on October 25, 2014, 01:07:26 PM
Like 4 episodes worth of content and the conversation over this show by and large wherever you go has still yet to crawl past the fact that yes it looks better than the Deen adaptation, has lot of info dumping in-between the heavy CGI assisted, kind of sped up looking and darkly lit so that flashy spark filled action set pieces stand out more episodes, has a large budget, and that yes....yes there is indeed a character named Rin Tohsaka in it and she is a girl that has a face.  Truly all the signs of a riveting tale ready to stand on it's own legs as a discussion piece that will stand the test of time.   :P

No particular comment to make myself about the episode since I'm not actively watching the show or anything for that matter, just a casual observation of bemusement over the different ways people seem to enjoy and talk about their shows nowadays.  It's just amazing to see that for all the hoopla, all the jizzing over the action set pieces and one particular character apparently absolutely nothing is happening in this show worthy of any deeper discussion in almost a half seasons worth of content when it's added up, which kind of surprises me cause the way this was sold to me is it was supposed to be this big happenings deeply philosophical and character driven story that will redefine how I look at VN adaptations but based on what I had seen of it it just kind of feels feels like yet another mega hyped action blockbuster show among many that started during this season all the same except based on a super popular in-culture franchise where the enjoyment apparently comes from how hardcore you are about it.  This is as good as it gets though apparently and that to me is very telling of what a curious season this Fall 2014 has been and why I've kind of lost interest in it.

Oh one thing I could add is that the action set pieces in this show just kind of reminded me of the cut scenes in the Tales of Xillia game series so I guess I've just sort of had a bit of experience with this CGI assisted style before and thus it's not all that new to me.   Maybe too that's why when I look at them I feel like I'm watching something that was ripped out of a video game as opposed to something that makes me feel like I'm actually watching an anime and like those scenes belong with and fit into the same universe as the infodump content.  To be fair I got the same vibe off of the action stylization with some other shows I was watching this season and kind of can't help but notice that the only show that has action scenes that don't feel like they belong in a video game and come across as natural for the show they are in are the Gundams which is strange because usually it's the mecha anime that are highly CGI assisted nowadays.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on October 25, 2014, 01:10:25 PM
It's just amazing to see that for all the hoopla, all the jizzing over the action set pieces and one particular character apparently absolutely nothing is happening in this show worthy of any deeper discussion in almost a half seasons worth of content when it's added up, which kind of surprises me cause the way this was sold to me is it was supposed to be this big happenings deeply philosophical and character driven story that will redefine how I look at VN adaptations but based on what I had seen of it it just kind of feels feels like yet another mega hyped action blockbuster show among many that started during this season all the same except based on a super popular in-culture franchise where the enjoyment apparently comes from how hardcore you are about it.

I'm actually curious as to who you're talking to since F/SN has always been a shounen action series with some cool twists.  Excise a couple elements and this show will basically be at the same level as Naruto.  I honestly think the VN hit so hard because it completely overturned expectations of what the medium could do.  People came in expecting a throw away porn game and got a rather impressive power fantasy series.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on October 25, 2014, 01:26:12 PM
I believe K-Sama is just ranting about its popularity outside of the NHRV, rather than ranting about its popularity in the NHRV.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on October 25, 2014, 01:37:02 PM
Quote
.....this big happenings deeply philosophical and character driven story that will redefine how I look at VN adaptations but based on what I had seen of it it just kind of feels feels like yet another mega hyped action blockbuster show among many that started during this season ......

You draw conclusions based on only 4 of 26 episodes, a single route (of 3). It's not a bit early for these absolute conclusions?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on October 25, 2014, 02:05:34 PM
I'm actually curious as to who you're talking to since F/SN has always been a shounen action series with some cool twists.  Excise a couple elements and this show will basically be at the same level as Naruto.  I honestly think the VN hit so hard because it completely overturned expectations of what the medium could do.  People came in expecting a throw away porn game and got a rather impressive power fantasy series.

Fate definitely isn't what I'd qualify as deep, something like Lain deserves that label, but I would think it stands a bit above something like Naruto even with removing a few elements of it lol. YMMW
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on October 25, 2014, 02:32:23 PM
Fate definitely isn't what I'd qualify as deep, something like Lain deserves that label, but I would think it stands a bit above something like Naruto even with removing a few elements of it lol. YMMW

Unlike most of the internet, I'm actually not using Naruto as an insult.  The show is protracted beyond good sense and gets redundant as a result, but Naruto does deal with racism, blood purges and childhood traumas leading to broken personalities.  I rate FS/N a cut above because "EMIYA" and Sakura are such delicious twists to the usual shounen action formula.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on October 25, 2014, 02:36:29 PM
Episode 3

Ilya still has that swag while Ufotable did complete justice to Berserker's abilities and why he lives up to his legend.  Excellent action packed episode which also made me happy when I got to see Archer fire off one of his copied legendary weapons.  Oh yeah, it also nice to see Gilgamesh pop up this early as well and I hope to see some shenanigans from that crazy duo of F/Z once more.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 25, 2014, 02:56:06 PM
Like 4 episodes worth of content and the conversation over this show by and large wherever you go has still yet to crawl past the fact that yes it looks better than the Deen adaptation, has lot of info dumping in-between the heavy CGI assisted, kind of sped up looking and darkly lit so that flashy spark filled action set pieces stand out more episodes, has a large budget, and that yes....yes there is indeed a character named Rin Tohsaka in it and she is a girl that has a face.  Truly all the signs of a riveting tale ready to stand on it's own legs as a discussion piece that will stand the test of time.   :P

I'm curious:  why do you think we care about what the rest of the world is talking about regarding F/SN UBW?  Part of the reason for the existence of this site is to get away from that bullshit.  We're elitists here, and we like it that way.  We don't even want to hear about what Reddit, 4chan, MAL, Twitter, or even animesuki's forums has to say about anything.  If we did, we'd go there and talk to them about it.  If you want to kvetch that everybody else on the internet is stupid, we already know that.  Thanks for the reminder.

So if the only commentary you can make on this particular show is how shitty the fanbase is, find something else to talk about.  Seriously.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on October 25, 2014, 03:18:58 PM
Unlike most of the internet, I'm actually not using Naruto as an insult.  The show is protracted beyond good sense and gets redundant as a result, but Naruto does deal with racism, blood purges and childhood traumas leading to broken personalities.  I rate FS/N a cut above because "EMIYA" and Sakura are such delicious twists to the usual shounen action formula.

I also don't hold Naruto to the same shit tier as most of the internet. I actually enjoyed the manga for most of its run, and while I didn't think Part 2 is generally as good as Part 1, I only thought after the conclusion of the Pain arc did it really lose its feet. This is when I realized Kishimoto's vision for the franchise's ultimate direction was practically nonexistent. The story could be summed up as Naruto uses friend-no-jutsu and converts everyone into his faithful followers. I like to think Fate's thematic structure is a lot more interesting, focused, and purposeful. Also kawaii girls and delicious shounen action make it more than entertaining enough.


3:

Man, they seriously do have unlimited budget. I do however wish some of the combat was slowed down a bit. I get the idea of trying to make the servants seem superhuman, but I already thought F/Z did that enough. Maybe speed it up a little bit more than that, but not THIS much.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on October 25, 2014, 03:33:02 PM
3:
It was actually quite a nice touch with the Rin/Illya battle. Can't remember if they fought in the VN though...

Oh yeah and that budget!
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on October 25, 2014, 05:29:50 PM
3:

Oh my ****ing godzilla!


Dat Berserker pankration
Dat Rin vs Ilya
Dat Caliburn like attack
Dat Broken Phantasm
Dat Archer Smirk

Fangasm to the max.

is it was supposed to be this big happenings deeply philosophical and character driven story that will redefine how I look at VN adaptations but based on what I had seen of it it just kind of feels feels like yet another mega hyped action blockbuster show among many that started during this season all the same except based on a super popular in-culture franchise where the enjoyment apparently comes from how hardcore you are about it.  This is as good as it gets though apparently and that to me is very telling of what a curious season this Fall 2014 has been and why I've kind of lost interest in it.

Maybe actually watch the series more and don't judge it with just 3 episodes? Maybe actually finish the show first before saying "This is as good as it gets"?

Unlike most of the internet, I'm actually not using Naruto as an insult.  The show is protracted beyond good sense and gets redundant as a result, but Naruto does deal with racism, blood purges and childhood traumas leading to broken personalities.  I rate FS/N a cut above because "EMIYA" and Sakura are such delicious twists to the usual shounen action formula.

I wouldn't exactly say that F/SN or any Type-Moon works for the matter is Shonen. See, Shonen is a demographic aim for young boys. The F/SN and Tsukihime are an eroge and there is a lot of elements to it, especially in Heaven's feel or heck even some elements in UBW that wouldn't qualify for shonen. I would say that fate probably but HF? Nope.

3:

Man, they seriously do have unlimited budget. I do however wish some of the combat was slowed down a bit. I get the idea of trying to make the servants seem superhuman, but I already thought F/Z did that enough. Maybe speed it up a little bit more than that, but not THIS much.

Well, Servants are supposed to be able to move for like hypersonic+ and is way too fast for the human eye to actually see. The ones in F/Z were actually quite slow(probably except during the all out battle with Caster) such as Saber vs Zero Lancer during episode 4.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 25, 2014, 10:08:08 PM
I think, at the end of the day, if you already know the ****ing story, then the only thing you're looking for is how the story is adapted.  Like the Lord of the Rings, it wasn't like they were going to shock me by having Frodo's finger get bitten off by Gollum who then plunges to his death in the fires of Mt. Doom.  The only joy was seeing it all brought to life, the acting performances, and the tricks of the trade.  Naturally, there's only so much deviation you can do from the story itself, and while Jackson took some liberties with the who's and the order of some things, in general it was the familiar story told really well.  Of course, then there's The Hobbit...

But anyway, the point is I already know this story, the details, the characters, what happens, to whom, and when, so there is no intrigue by watching Saber v. BarSarCar v. Archer.  There was SOME tension in Fate Zero, because a number of characters there I wasn't completely familiar with, and certainly the details of who when and what were less important than the how.  Prism Illya was a lot more tense because I didn't know shit about that source material.  Basically, those who are getting the full enjoyment here are the ignorant, and I envy them.  I can't unknow what I know, so all I have left is "ooh"ing and "ahh"ing over the pretty colors.  And they're pretty.

Thus, I think discussing the fanwank is just absurd.  Of course they're wanking.  It's all they have here.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: SQA on October 25, 2014, 10:16:48 PM
Dat Budget.

I'll also note they brought over some design tricks from the Prism Illya series in the compositioning of the CG & 2D elements.  It lets them stretch the budget even further.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Gadget on October 25, 2014, 11:15:22 PM
I think, at the end of the day, if you already know the ****ing story, then the only thing you're looking for is how the story is adapted.  Like the Lord of the Rings, it wasn't like they were going to shock me by having Frodo's finger get bitten off by Gollum who then plunges to his death in the fires of Mt. Doom.  The only joy was seeing it all brought to life, the acting performances, and the tricks of the trade. 

What we forgotten is that we are HARD CORES. And in original F/SN was a eroge before the animation. So many people would have know the story and the different rout. But like all work, the studio would like to include new audience as well. So that's why they have the info dump thingy. And more eye candy and light show.

Like all producers and directors, they would like to have the latest CGI methods which they didn't have in 2006(?) That is why there are more light shows in the few battles. The battle have improve from FZ and I agree that they did uses Fate Prism Illya techniques. But in the end, the high speed dash, attack and withdraw methods are all Dragonball type of fight.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on October 25, 2014, 11:15:56 PM
3:

I will admit, It doesn't feel like very many cards are hitting the table like it did in F/Z. Cards are hitting the tables hard and with pretty sparks, yes, but there's very few of them. The combat overall progresses really slowly, but the action scenes are fast, visceral and heavy. The whole fights feel oddly compartmentalized as a result: it seems as if ufotable approaches scenes as if they had one or two purposes only, when there could be many. It just doesn't feel very simultaneous. Fate/Zero had some of that going on too: the fights weren't structured in parallel, though the story was for a good deal of time.

Aaarh, somebody give a monkey a wrench. This affair didn't really feel as tense, raw, or nicely structured as, say, the running horse-fight in Attack on Titan. It does, however, feel like ch1.5 of a rather big story.

P.S. I also wish they keep up the minimal usage of the CGI bits. They've been using it economically and well so far, but there was one example of action-figure slash-spam in Saber v Lancer.
I'll also note they brought over some design tricks from the Prism Illya series in the compositioning of the CG & 2D elements.  It lets them stretch the budget even further.
They brought some of the bad habits too: the fire effects look quite wonky at times.
P.P.S. I get the feeling that Archer just casually tried to kill Shirou and Saber. It would certainly have been in his interest to get Shirou. Hell, I think Shirou is lucky as hell that Rin's got this unspoken truce up; there's probably little Saber can do to save him against a well placed arrow.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Gadget on October 26, 2014, 11:08:05 AM
there's probably little Saber can do to save him against a well placed arrow.

Archer's arrow is a MINI NUKE!
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on October 27, 2014, 07:34:41 AM
Fate Stay Night uses Shounen elements much like Berserk does. They are just very dark compared to most shounens.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on November 01, 2014, 04:25:31 PM
4:

The Unlimited blade works looks so good on this one.

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/c9204bc8a40c545b3db6968cf1f204e0/tumblr_nede3z5VSl1r8vjh0o1_500.png)
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on November 01, 2014, 06:02:00 PM
4

Well, it seems that the show is planning to act out every nook and cranny of the VNs giving a great deal of nuance to all the characters actions but slowing the pacing down to a crawl.  Well, given that I'm already vested in the story, and I'm here to see the events I already know play out in high budget (as TIF mentions) so I like what I'm seeing.  I can see how newcomers will not be so patient though.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on November 02, 2014, 12:52:31 AM
The episode was slow for sure and i already see many people complained about it, but it's a really fair complain. If people have problems with Rin wiggling her butt in front of us during episode 2, the intro with Ilya will surely irk a lot of people. If i want some Ilya fanservice, i'll watch prisma ilya.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on November 02, 2014, 01:07:49 AM
Well aside from the random service part, the scene with Illya was good. I'm probably too much of a fan of this story to see why this episode is slow (Too many people are obsessed with action) as I just thought it was really well done. If you already know everything about the grail war it could possibly be boring, but again, I am pleased that they are making this easy to get into for newer viewers. I also really appreciated ufotable's job on Shirou's character. He comes across sooooooooooooo much better in this anime compared to DEEN.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on November 02, 2014, 01:21:32 AM
Episode 4

I am the Bone of my Sword.  Oh wait.  Not yet?  Damn!  It is pretty much a (pretty good) setup episode until we get to see Caster and Assassin in action.  Although, the Ilya fan service was completely unnecessary.  No real reason or need for that to happen at all. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on November 02, 2014, 01:03:41 PM
3-4:

This is a fine-looking show. I just wish the usual highschool setting and tropey characters weren't preventing me from taking this seriously, like I could with Zero. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 02, 2014, 09:05:31 PM
People ripping on Illya fanservice.

I don't want to LIVE on this planet anymore!

Y'all do realize she's older than Shirou, right?  While she may also be the token loli character, she's certainly no younger than any other character who gets fanservice shots, so I don't understand the complaining.  I mean, unless you buy the Australian methods of censorship wherein appearance is more important than actual age, in which case, **** you.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: JC on November 02, 2014, 09:55:13 PM
Not impressed with the pacing. I mean there is a week-long break between episodes, and all see is talk, walk, and more talk? I even dropped Fate zero because it was so damn slow. Some people just have no patience...

Although there is a strong nolstagia factor for me to keep watching. /sigh
BTW I really wouldn't mind more Illya sa-bi-su  ;D
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on November 03, 2014, 12:54:39 PM
The fact that I don't hear people hating on Shirou yet is probably a good sign.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on November 05, 2014, 01:46:47 PM
The fact that I don't hear people hating on Shirou yet is probably a good sign.

This show seems to just have plenty of things to keep people distracted from giving into natural inclinations I think is what's going on.  A couple more slower dialogue driven episodes in a row and I'd expect that to change in a hurry though but it looks like there's a conscious choice at play to make sure that doesn't happen.  I think there's more than a few reasons that this show seems to alternate between more dialogue driven character building episodes and OMG LOOK AT THIS ACTION LOOK AT IT YOU FOOLS THEY'RE MOVING SO FAST AND SPARKS AND FLASHY EFFECTS ARE FLYING ALL OVER THE PLACE episodes.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on November 05, 2014, 02:14:37 PM
I think the other reason is we aren't covering "fate" shirou, who was not the greatest character in the world. Also not going into his inner thoughts kinda helps "I'm dead, definitely dead, 2000 million percent dead, I couldn't be deader if I tried, oh wait I'm alive"

Sometimes I question whether nasu is a good writer or not, but at least he's creative.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on November 05, 2014, 02:33:31 PM
Well not covering Fate is one reason, since we don't get him trying to stop Saber from fighting because he's a woman or some other nonsense (Which Nasu himself as commented as being extremely regrettable). However, I think the main reason is simply the fact that Ufotable is doing an amazing job at portraying his character. He's a lot more understandable this time around. DEEN did pretty poorly by comparison here.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on November 05, 2014, 02:37:47 PM
I think the other reason is we aren't covering "fate" shirou, who was not the greatest character in the world. Also not going into his inner thoughts kinda helps "I'm dead, definitely dead, 2000 million percent dead, I couldn't be deader if I tried, oh wait I'm alive"

Sometimes I question whether nasu is a good writer or not, but at least he's creative.

I'd describe a lot of what are considered to be the top tier writers in anime for this generation as interesting long before I'd describe them as particularly good, creative and/or insightful.  Most of the problem is that a lot of them nowadays seem to come primarily from a light novel or visual novel/eroge background and just don't really seem to be capable of writing characters that feel natural or multi-faceted or that have entirely plausible character arcs.  Sure they can regularly churn out kind of interesting and enticing to some degree maybe but not exactly engrossing or resonant to the point where I say I can identify with this character on more than a few levels and care about what happens to them.  Male heroes partially as a result of this also seem to come in one of three packages a lot of the time now too I've started to notice.  The superstar invincible pensive stoic dude that gets all the chicks and has all the skills yet somehow finds cause to lament their situation, the idealistic hero that must be corrupted somehow in order to succeed at their task or the total loser that seems to want nothing other than an easy life that gets stuck in some sort of situation with a bunch of hawt overbearing girls and ends up complaining the whole way through.

I have very little idea how Shiro will turn out in any case.  I remember seeing the Fate route anime but honestly dont remember too much about his character other than he wants to save people from bad Fates (anime loved to shit on these types hardcore these days btw) and his voice sounded a lot like Amuro Rays.  I don't remember being all that bothered by him, but then I'm not super hardcore into all the little dramas of the Type-Moon sphere and who are the good characters and best Waifu and who aren't  Obviously something must have gone horribly wrong though for people to kind of noticeably hate the character and always be on and on about Rin as the de facto heroine and hope for the shows protagonists when its so clear without even having read the VN that she's not.

What I don't get is how does a VN get so mega popular when its principal character is apparently one of it's weakest links for a lot of people, that's where I've been a bit confused in all the Fate hoopla this season and what I'll be interested to see play out.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on November 05, 2014, 02:50:17 PM
Funny that nasu commented on that. I thought that was just kind of a japanese culture thing. You always see in shows and animes that they say "so and so is a girl so you have to be nice" but maybe that's just sexism that's still a work in progress over there.

As for how something is loved when their principle character is hated, I believe people really only didn't like him in the fate route while the other two routes he faired much better. Also people who watched the original anime probably didn't care for him either like reckoner said. But also because there aren't a lot of slightly more mature and darker shounens out there that are complete (berserk whyyyy).

I find him to be an interesting concept though, thankfully the affection he got from the girls isn't quite as trite as other male leads which your describing (Like Grisaia haha). The problem is, it takes a long time to real grasp a full understanding of Shirou and his actions and thoughts might just come off as moronic and unappealing until they are revealed. Shinji from evangelion is somewhat similar in that tons of people hate him, but he's actually fairly interesting and beleivable at his core.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on November 05, 2014, 03:39:19 PM
Here's the interview for reference where that's mentioned. Essentially Nasu was too inexperienced at the time to do better according to his own words. No sexism intended I believe lol.

http://www.tsukikan.com/misc/nasu-kinoko-takeuchi-takashi-urobuchi-gen-special-forum.html

Quote
Saber has appeared in so many different forms in spin-offs over the past 10 years, she's become a sort of poster girl for TYPE-MOON. From your point of view, Urobuchi, how do you view Saber?

Uro: Honestly, Saber doesn't look much like a heroine to me. I can still see traces of the male version of Saber that appeared in the early version of Fate (*7). Because of that mental image, Saber's relationship with Shirou doesn't seem like a realistic relationship between a male and a female, but a complicated relationship with a boy who became a girl.

Nasu: Typical Urobuchi... I really can't pull the wool over your eyes... I intended to take that to the grave with me, but I guess this 10-year anniversary is a good place to talk about it. Just like Urobuchi-san said, it's difficult to call the relationship between Shirou and Saber a relationship between a man and a woman. Saber has fought for a long time as the ruler of Britain, but then turned into a girl all of a sudden and fell in love with Shirou. It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. But I really wanted to push it towards that sort of boy-meets-girl story. So as a last resort, I had Shirou continually say things to her like "But you're a girl," and "Girls aren't supposed to fight," in order to remind the users that "she is really a girl." It's like the author's actually the one trying to convince Saber that she's a girl... I feel like I could have written it a lot better now, but that was the best I could do at the time.

Uro: It isn't a relationship fueled by instinct like the relationship between a man and a woman, but a romance of logic between two people who need each other from the heart. I think the Saber route could have been told as a story through the ancient Greek views on love. That's what makes Saber's story so refreshing, and why she's become such a popular character. On the other hand, I think the true heroine of Fate/stay night is Rin. In the Rin route, an equal relationship with a woman who's become stronger than men is depicted. Rin and Shirou mend each other's weaknesses with their own unique strengths, and I think it makes for a very nice relationship.

It would seem Gen believes Rin is best girl too.  :P
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on November 05, 2014, 04:13:29 PM
Amusing but I can totally see that as Shirou and Saber's relationship was very amatuerly written in comparison to his relationship to Rin. Funny because even though Saber is the poster girl (somehow), I agree with Gen that the main heroine has always been Rin (as she's the only heroine who is extremely important in all 3 tales).

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on November 05, 2014, 04:46:40 PM
Sometimes I question whether nasu is a good writer or not, but at least he's creative.

Don't know if its just the translations, but his prose is purple as a grape. Oh, and also this:

(http://www.lurkmore.com/w/images/9/9e/Thischair.jpg)
(http://lparchive.org/Tsukihime/Update%20134/s402-079.jpg)

Nasu, you magnificent bastard!!!

Amusing but I can totally see that as Shirou and Saber's relationship was very amatuerly written in comparison to his relationship to Rin. Funny because even though Saber is the poster girl (somehow), I agree with Gen that the main heroine has always been Rin (as she's the only heroine who is extremely important in all 3 tales).

That whole romance was for Saber to finally realize that her ideals is flawed and to finally have a resolution to her character really. His relationship with Saber at UBW if you try to go with the good end and get more Seibah points was better written though. And no, there is no main heroine just as there is no main route.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 06, 2014, 01:07:10 AM
That dialogue with Nasu and Urobuchi is fascinating shit.  I find it hilarious that people, namely KS, can question their validity as writers when it is pretty obvious that they put more thought into their works than most people do with their entire lives.  I mean, forgive me for being a bit sniffy here, but...

Quote from: KS
Most of the problem is that a lot of them nowadays seem to come primarily from a light novel or visual novel/eroge background and just don't really seem to be capable of writing characters that feel natural or multi-faceted or that have entirely plausible character arcs.

...who gives a shit where someone cut their teeth?  Sometimes you do what pays the bills, and it is when you become established that you can start to put your own ideas forward a bit more.  Obviously, Nasu agrees that his starting writing was lacking in some areas, but he's matured a lot since then and gotten better.  Honing your craft is more important than where you started.  While the VN and LN industries might be somewhat limiting considering the target audience and goal is to make money, that doesn't mean that the writers are somehow less gifted or talented.  There are GOOD VNs and LNs out there that are written by creative minds.  Being dismissive of these areas just because you've become utterly jaded and cynical about anime says more about you than it does them.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and blatantly lie and say that all, or even most, VNs or LNs are well written, but there are some that are easily a cut above the rest, and should be given the opportunity to prove it.  You're doing nobody a service by having such narrow vision, especially yourself.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on November 06, 2014, 09:15:22 AM
Romeo Tanaka send his regards.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on November 06, 2014, 09:33:06 AM
Sometimes I wonder why Romeo even writes in the visual novel/light novel medium. Especially the light novel as his writing is anything but, easy to read.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on November 06, 2014, 06:16:48 PM
The main problem is that most VNs that get adapted into the anime medium are basically the same old generic garbage that seems to get recycled every season from all forms of media.

If you really go deeper though, there are plenty of VNs that are just head over shoulders most works. For example, Looseboy (Sharin no Kuni, G-Senjou no Maou, A profile) is not only capable of writing decent female characters with great character arcs, his male characters are practically some of the best in the business and pretty much swimming in depth.

Of course, the other problem is that most VNs use characters that are in some form or other cliches and that some people will never be able to look past that, but with the right writer even a harem of ten girls could be very good.

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on November 06, 2014, 09:28:46 PM
That dialogue with Nasu and Urobuchi is fascinating shit.  I find it hilarious that people, namely KS, can question their validity as writers when it is pretty obvious that they put more thought into their works than most people do with their entire lives.  I mean, forgive me for being a bit sniffy here, but...

Quote from: KS
Most of the problem is that a lot of them nowadays seem to come primarily from a light novel or visual novel/eroge background and just don't really seem to be capable of writing characters that feel natural or multi-faceted or that have entirely plausible character arcs.

...who gives a shit where someone cut their teeth?  Sometimes you do what pays the bills, and it is when you become established that you can start to put your own ideas forward a bit more.  Obviously, Nasu agrees that his starting writing was lacking in some areas, but he's matured a lot since then and gotten better.  Honing your craft is more important than where you started.  While the VN and LN industries might be somewhat limiting considering the target audience and goal is to make money, that doesn't mean that the writers are somehow less gifted or talented.  There are GOOD VNs and LNs out there that are written by creative minds.  Being dismissive of these areas just because you've become utterly jaded and cynical about anime says more about you than it does them.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and blatantly lie and say that all, or even most, VNs or LNs are well written, but there are some that are easily a cut above the rest, and should be given the opportunity to prove it.  You're doing nobody a service by having such narrow vision, especially yourself.

I can't speak too much for Nasu since I've only ever really finished Kara no Kyokai which I found interesting but kind of inconsistent in terms of how well the episode handle things like dialogue and immersion.  Not sure how much of his fault that is.  Urobuchi...man I really don't know these days.  Frankly I think he sucks colossally at writing believable and plausible characters and his dialogue has been heading more in the direction of action movie cliches with each successive work.  He can sort of write about interesting ideas but man is he a mixed bag when it comes to bringing them to life in a way that has any sort of emotional resonance beyond "Oh...okay that idea kind of opposes that idea from a philosophical standpoint so that's kind of interesting".  I can't attest to how much thought the guy actually puts into his work or why he keeps quitting in the middle of projects like he suddenly just stops caring halfway through coming up with a story concept, but I can say his works just hit these days with all the sincerity of an average Hollywood comic book blockbuster adaptation.  Kind of a one trick pony if you ask me and I can already see the massive difference between how this show has played out so far and how Fate/Zero played out early on with it's stiff as a board main characters and their droning dialogue about how life and the world is cold and harsh and totally out to get you.  I also get the sense that at least Nasu will play fair when it comes to outcomes for characters with certain alignments and not just give all the breaks to the cynical nihilist characters and heap all the shit on the ones that actually feel closer to actually being alive on some emotional level and thus apparently have to suffer for it.  Boy has that shit gotten old with that writer.

As for who gives a shit about that sort of thing, a lot of people.  Have you seen this fanbase lately lol?  I think what colors your perspective differently is you just never see it because you never seem to follow the shows where people really pile it on the writers and general staff like oh say....pretty much any sci-fi mecha/military anime in the last decade.  Also pretty much all the "superstar" writers in anime nowadays seem to come from this sort of background (and increasingly so "superstar" directors that come from backgrounds directing 18+ OVA's) such that it's kind of come to define what is seen by many as the "right way" to write a screenplay for anime nowadays.  Lots of info dumps, lots and lots of run on "witty" dialogue and a general disregard for the fact that anime is supposed to be a visual medium and have a pulse of it's own therein.  The whole characters walking in circles around one another thing as some guy drones on and on about how x makes y work or whatever strikes me as a pretty valid complaint to make about how to handle a scene from an imaginative standpoint or rather lack thereof.  Something like Hunter x Hunter aka that shonen show you dropped after the 5th episode or something like that citing it as "typical shonen brainlessness" (you want to talk to me about bias against certain genres and origins of writers?  For real?) that went on to become hailed pretty much all around as the defining example of a Shonen action series stepping outside of the box  to become something defining and fresh handles it's info dumping just fine by example in terms of the visuals it'll attach to it that actually hold some sort of visual connection to what is being described.  Then again that show was directed by someone with actual experience and imagination that clearly gave a shit about what they were doing beyond just "make it look cool and show the action from this angle before showing it from that angle" as opposed to just some upstart "superstar" director like Ei Aoki (Girls Bravo, Ga-Rei Zero) that is apparently supposed to be a defining director of this generation despite having nothing to show for it to date besides directing IMO the flat out worst movie in the Kara no Kyokai series.  Honestly what did that guy ever do to apparently become a defining director besides be the got that just happened to get put on Fate/Zero's adaptation and not totally shit the bed?

Anyway the picture linked above of some in game script is pretty chuckle worthy as well when taken as a whole and admittedly the show makes big on it's action set pieces when it's basing the episodes around those, but yeah some of the dialogue is demonstrably not so hot as has been clearly evidenced and I kind of wonder if whatever that scene is makes it into the show.  :o Personally though I'm just saying in the long run and not just as a matter of this show that I find the whole reliance on LN/VN's thing kind of silly and more than a little pathetic and have for quite some time.  Anime is just that reliant on the LN/VN industry, I mean it was bad enough when it was just a constant stream of adaptations of this or that LN/VN with a cult following, but at this point even most of the supposed top tier staffers in the industry are basically just people coming over from those mediums or people they find off of niconico like that JIN fellow because the industry can't attract any new talent with a fresh perspective anymore since wages and incentives are absolute shit.  What we've got right now is the best we're going to get it seems and after that with next generation.....???????  Is there going to be a next generation of anime creators even?  I'm not convinced personally for many reasons that would take too long to explain and drag things far too off topic anyway.

Anyway yes while Type/Moon has sort of proven to me that they're a cut above the generic fare (at least what I've seen of their work which is admittedly not much) in their industry I still have to say I find the fact that the apparent bar none hallmark of the season is an adaptation of a game where when I go on Amazon to browse the source material it asks me if I'm 18 years or older with a content warning for erotic and explicit content in giant block letters.  This is the absolute best the industry can do (why is this seen as the absolute best the industry can do is how I feel I should be phrasing this question but whatever I'll roll with for this discussion) in Sakuga Fall for 2014 and to be honest I'm kind of mixed on that whole realization.

So yeah basically I'm sorry I've yet to be convinced why these people are apparently the superstars they're held up to be and why anime as a medium should be so overwhelmingly reliant on them and their industry in order to keep itself propped up as a commercial enterprise.  Looks a whole lot like glorified big budget life support and borrowed time if you ask me if taken as a bigger picture.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on November 06, 2014, 09:59:04 PM
Something like Hunter x Hunter aka that shonen show you dropped after the 5th episode or something like that citing it as "typical shonen brainlessness" (you want to talk to me about bias against certain genres and origins of writers?  For real?) that went on to become hailed pretty much all around as the defining example of a Shonen action series stepping outside of the box  to become something defining and fresh handles it's info dumping just fine by example in terms of the visuals it'll attach to it that actually hold some sort of visual connection to what is being described.  Then again that show was directed by someone with actual experience and imagination that clearly gave a shit about what they were doing beyond just "make it look cool and show the action from this angle before showing it from that angle" as opposed to just some upstart "superstar" director like Ei Aoki (Girls Bravo, Ga-Rei Zero) that is apparently supposed to be a defining director of this generation despite having nothing to show for it to date besides directing IMO the flat out worst movie in the Kara no Kyokai series.

This is one hell of a straw man argument you just made, along with some tu quoque, ad hominem, and many other fallacies.

And, in fairness to Hunter x Hunter, it wasn't dropped due to sucking or lack of interest but simple time crunch, then I got behind, and now I don't feel like watching 100 episodes of anything.  As far as shounen BATTLE shows go, it was easily at the top end.

http://www.nihonreview.com/forum/index.php?topic=2124.msg49644#msg49644 <- Source.

As for who gives a shit about that sort of thing, a lot of people.  Have you seen this fanbase lately lol?

That's the bloody point. We aren't the fanbase. Nobody here gives a cut. We're here to watch anime and indiscriminately discuss why we like them, dislike them, love them, or hate them. Who here cares more about Urobochi Gen being the writer for one goddamn new anime than the shows they love? Why do you care if someone sees something you don't in these writers or directors? If someone likes something you don't, grin and bear it. Argue it, sure, but for the love of god, respect the other person's argument and give them credit where it's due.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on November 06, 2014, 10:27:55 PM
Personally, I see VNs and LNs as just books that happen to have the largest audiences and thus the most interest by writers.  Wondering why so much of it is trash would be like wondering why so many books suck.  I honestly think that VN/LNs have found prominence because it allows literally anyone with an idea and passion to get their story out.  It has lowered the bar for entry opening the floodgates to both garbage as well as the occasional gem.

PS: F/SN is not the best the medium can do; it's merely the most popular.  Blockbusters like these are necessary to fund the Shin Sekai Yori's of the world (which was probably funded by the success of Sword Art Online).
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Aelms on November 06, 2014, 10:29:32 PM
That dialogue with Nasu and Urobuchi is fascinating shit.  I find it hilarious that people, namely KS, can question their validity as writers when it is pretty obvious that they put more thought into their works than most people do with their entire lives.  I mean, forgive me for being a bit sniffy here, but...

Quote from: KS
Most of the problem is that a lot of them nowadays seem to come primarily from a light novel or visual novel/eroge background and just don't really seem to be capable of writing characters that feel natural or multi-faceted or that have entirely plausible character arcs.

...who gives a shit where someone cut their teeth?  Sometimes you do what pays the bills, and it is when you become established that you can start to put your own ideas forward a bit more.  Obviously, Nasu agrees that his starting writing was lacking in some areas, but he's matured a lot since then and gotten better.  Honing your craft is more important than where you started.  While the VN and LN industries might be somewhat limiting considering the target audience and goal is to make money, that doesn't mean that the writers are somehow less gifted or talented.  There are GOOD VNs and LNs out there that are written by creative minds.  Being dismissive of these areas just because you've become utterly jaded and cynical about anime says more about you than it does them.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and blatantly lie and say that all, or even most, VNs or LNs are well written, but there are some that are easily a cut above the rest, and should be given the opportunity to prove it.  You're doing nobody a service by having such narrow vision, especially yourself.

I can't speak too much for Nasu since I've only ever really finished Kara no Kyokai which I found interesting but kind of inconsistent in terms of how well the episode handle things like dialogue and immersion.  Not sure how much of his fault that is.  Urobuchi...man I really don't know these days.  Frankly I think he sucks colossally at writing believable and plausible characters and his dialogue has been heading more in the direction of action movie cliches with each successive work.  He can sort of write about interesting ideas but man is he a mixed bag when it comes to bringing them to life in a way that has any sort of emotional resonance beyond "Oh...okay that idea kind of opposes that idea from a philosophical standpoint so that's kind of interesting".  I can't attest to how much thought the guy actually puts into his work or why he keeps quitting in the middle of projects like he suddenly just stops caring halfway through coming up with a story concept, but I can say his works just hit these days with all the sincerity of an average Hollywood comic book blockbuster adaptation.  Kind of a one trick pony if you ask me and I can already see the massive difference between how this show has played out so far and how Fate/Zero played out early on with it's stiff as a board main characters and their droning dialogue about how life and the world is cold and harsh and totally out to get you.  I also get the sense that at least Nasu will play fair when it comes to outcomes for characters with certain alignments and not just give all the breaks to the cynical nihilist characters and heap all the shit on the ones that actually feel closer to actually being alive on some emotional level and thus apparently have to suffer for it.  Boy has that shit gotten old with that writer.

As for who gives a shit about that sort of thing, a lot of people.  Have you seen this fanbase lately lol?  I think what colors your perspective differently is you just never see it because you never seem to follow the shows where people really pile it on the writers and general staff like oh say....pretty much any sci-fi mecha/military anime in the last decade.  Also pretty much all the "superstar" writers in anime nowadays seem to come from this sort of background (and increasingly so "superstar" directors that come from backgrounds directing 18+ OVA's) such that it's kind of come to define what is seen by many as the "right way" to write a screenplay for anime nowadays.  Lots of info dumps, lots and lots of run on "witty" dialogue and a general disregard for the fact that anime is supposed to be a visual medium and have a pulse of it's own therein.  The whole characters walking in circles around one another thing as some guy drones on and on about how x makes y work or whatever strikes me as a pretty valid complaint to make about how to handle a scene from an imaginative standpoint or rather lack thereof.  Something like Hunter x Hunter aka that shonen show you dropped after the 5th episode or something like that citing it as "typical shonen brainlessness" (you want to talk to me about bias against certain genres and origins of writers?  For real?) that went on to become hailed pretty much all around as the defining example of a Shonen action series stepping outside of the box  to become something defining and fresh handles it's info dumping just fine by example in terms of the visuals it'll attach to it that actually hold some sort of visual connection to what is being described.  Then again that show was directed by someone with actual experience and imagination that clearly gave a shit about what they were doing beyond just "make it look cool and show the action from this angle before showing it from that angle" as opposed to just some upstart "superstar" director like Ei Aoki (Girls Bravo, Ga-Rei Zero) that is apparently supposed to be a defining director of this generation despite having nothing to show for it to date besides directing IMO the flat out worst movie in the Kara no Kyokai series.  Honestly what did that guy ever do to apparently become a defining director besides be the got that just happened to get put on Fate/Zero's adaptation and not totally shit the bed?

Anyway the picture linked above of some in game script is pretty chuckle worthy as well when taken as a whole and admittedly the show makes big on it's action set pieces when it's basing the episodes around those, but yeah some of the dialogue is demonstrably not so hot as has been clearly evidenced and I kind of wonder if whatever that scene is makes it into the show.  :o Personally though I'm just saying in the long run and not just as a matter of this show that I find the whole reliance on LN/VN's thing kind of silly and more than a little pathetic and have for quite some time.  Anime is just that reliant on the LN/VN industry, I mean it was bad enough when it was just a constant stream of adaptations of this or that LN/VN with a cult following, but at this point even most of the supposed top tier staffers in the industry are basically just people coming over from those mediums or people they find off of niconico like that JIN fellow because the industry can't attract any new talent with a fresh perspective anymore since wages and incentives are absolute shit.  What we've got right now is the best we're going to get it seems and after that with next generation.....???????  Is there going to be a next generation of anime creators even?  I'm not convinced personally for many reasons that would take too long to explain and drag things far too off topic anyway.

Anyway yes while Type/Moon has sort of proven to me that they're a cut above the generic fare (at least what I've seen of their work which is admittedly not much) in their industry I still have to say I find the fact that the apparent bar none hallmark of the season is an adaptation of a game where when I go on Amazon to browse the source material it asks me if I'm 18 years or older with a content warning for erotic and explicit content in giant block letters.  This is the absolute best the industry can do (why is this seen as the absolute best the industry can do is how I feel I should be phrasing this question but whatever I'll roll with for this discussion) in Sakuga Fall for 2014 and to be honest I'm kind of mixed on that whole realization.

So yeah basically I'm sorry I've yet to be convinced why these people are apparently the superstars they're held up to be and why anime as a medium should be so overwhelmingly reliant on them and their industry in order to keep itself propped up as a commercial enterprise.  Looks a whole lot like glorified big budget life support and borrowed time if you ask me if taken as a bigger picture.

I can't understand why you keep going back to the "superstar" buzzword when no one else in the discussion is trying to push such an implication. The point is that the VN/LN industry has good writers. No one says that they're flawless or only pumps out masterpieces. I think you're responding to the wrong community.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on November 06, 2014, 10:34:12 PM
Something like Hunter x Hunter aka that shonen show you dropped after the 5th episode or something like that citing it as "typical shonen brainlessness" (you want to talk to me about bias against certain genres and origins of writers?  For real?) that went on to become hailed pretty much all around as the defining example of a Shonen action series stepping outside of the box  to become something defining and fresh handles it's info dumping just fine by example in terms of the visuals it'll attach to it that actually hold some sort of visual connection to what is being described.  Then again that show was directed by someone with actual experience and imagination that clearly gave a shit about what they were doing beyond just "make it look cool and show the action from this angle before showing it from that angle" as opposed to just some upstart "superstar" director like Ei Aoki (Girls Bravo, Ga-Rei Zero) that is apparently supposed to be a defining director of this generation despite having nothing to show for it to date besides directing IMO the flat out worst movie in the Kara no Kyokai series.

This is one hell of a straw man argument you just made, along with some tu quoque, ad hominem, and many other fallacies.

And, in fairness to Hunter x Hunter, it wasn't dropped due to sucking or lack of interest but simple time crunch, then I got behind, and now I don't feel like watching 100 episodes of anything.  As far as shounen BATTLE shows go, it was easily at the top end.

http://www.nihonreview.com/forum/index.php?topic=2124.msg49644#msg49644 <- Source.

As for who gives a shit about that sort of thing, a lot of people.  Have you seen this fanbase lately lol?

That's the bloody point. We aren't the fanbase. Nobody here gives a cut. We're here to watch anime and indiscriminately discuss why we like them, dislike them, love them, or hate them. Who here cares more about Urobochi Gen being the writer for one goddamn new anime than the shows they love? Why do you care if someone sees something you don't in these writers or directors? If someone likes something you don't, grin and bear it. Argue it, sure, but for the love of god, respect the other person's argument and give them credit where it's due.

Just so I'm sure we're on the same page here who's argument am I not respecting or giving credit to here exactly cause I think I gave a pretty concise and detailed response?  Admittedly I probably shouldn't have responded to the whole "who gives a shit bit so bluntly" (also admittedly I have to say for several reasons I don't particularly take TIF posts at face value anymore so if it looks like I'm speaking a little sideways and ironically it's cause I kind of am)  but I've long since learned my lesson about not striking when the opportunity presents itself to make the points I want to make be they judged as ad hominem, strawmen or whatever.  Perhaps the way I've learned it (and perhaps learning that maybe it doesn't need to be applied in practice so much here) is that not taking those opportunities will come back to bite you in the ass in the long run but as people keep insisting that sort of thing doesn't happen here....you know the whole refusal to play fair and my way or the highway approach or as you guys putting it NHRV not being "the fandom".  My bad there.  Also my bad on the whole wrongful accusation thing, can't argue with evidence.

@Shadowmage:  I don't know about you but I didn't find that Shin Sekai Yori had a whole lot of funding going on.  That show was rife with QUALITY and wonky moments that make it look like it was barely given just enough budget to accomplish what it needed to get the novel from text to animation format and absolutely not a single yen more ostensibly because there was no money in it.

I think the basic script for VN design that almost every one of them uses now is said to actually be even simpler to work with than something like RPGMaker since you're essentially just working with separate media assets that never necessarily need to integrate with one another.   Text, image, music and voice can all be plugged in and swapped on the fly as needed.  That it's a gateway too creators that creates a low bar of entry is of course double edged sword with it's upsides and downsides same as the low barrier of entry for Light Novels to be published since they're just so ridiculously dirt cheap to produce and ship and follow a very preset format for the most part. 

Again though the question that keeps puzzling me is how get to the point where it's reliant on this sort of low bar entry media to sustain itself, but oh well it's probably not fair to puzzle over that discussion here.  To be honest I really never expected this to end up yet another extended topic but I guess I have that effect on people where comment spoken out of the side of my mouth gets questioned and then I end up just pouring out every idea that's on my mind and it expands from there as a verbal black hole that pulls everyone in.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on November 06, 2014, 10:36:59 PM
In regards to Shin Sekai Yori, I was more referring to its existence in the first place.  Without a healthy dose of blockbusters to keep the gears turning, "experiments" like the SSY wouldn't exist.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on November 06, 2014, 10:42:37 PM
Just so I'm sure we're on the same page here who's argument am I not respecting or giving credit to here exactly cause I think I gave a pretty concise and detailed response?  Admittedly I probably shouldn't have responded to the whole who gives a shit bit so bluntly but I've long since learned my lesson about not striking when the opportunity presents itself to make the points I want to make be they judged as ad hominem, strawmen or whatever.  Perhaps the way I've learned it (and perhaps learning that maybe it doesn't need to be applied in practice so much here) is that not taking those opportunities will come back to bite you in the ass in the long run but as people keep insisting that sort of thing doesn't happen here....you know the whole refusal to play fair and my way or the highway approach or as you guys putting it NHRV not being "the fandom".  My bad there.

As for my first point, you can call it "labeling your argument" all you want. You basically accused TIF of dropping a show he didn't in 5 episodes for thinking it was another piece of shounen trash, which he didn't. The argument not only came out of nowhere but amounted to no more than an attempt at saying "well, you're no better than me, so I can do whatever I want." That's pretty disrespectful.

Secondly, nobody's telling you that "we're kind to you so long as you conform", so much as "you're really taking this out of proportion and nobody really cares, and it's all you ever talk about."
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on November 06, 2014, 10:56:21 PM
Just so I'm sure we're on the same page here who's argument am I not respecting or giving credit to here exactly cause I think I gave a pretty concise and detailed response?  Admittedly I probably shouldn't have responded to the whole who gives a shit bit so bluntly but I've long since learned my lesson about not striking when the opportunity presents itself to make the points I want to make be they judged as ad hominem, strawmen or whatever.  Perhaps the way I've learned it (and perhaps learning that maybe it doesn't need to be applied in practice so much here) is that not taking those opportunities will come back to bite you in the ass in the long run but as people keep insisting that sort of thing doesn't happen here....you know the whole refusal to play fair and my way or the highway approach or as you guys putting it NHRV not being "the fandom".  My bad there.

As for my first point, you can call it "labeling your argument" all you want. You basically accused TIF of dropping a show he didn't in 5 episodes for thinking it was another piece of shounen trash, which he didn't. The argument not only came out of nowhere but amounted to no more than an attempt at saying "well, you're no better than me, so I can do whatever I want." That's pretty disrespectful.

Secondly, nobody's telling you that "we're kind to you so long as you conform", so much as "you're really taking this out of proportion and nobody really cares, and it's all you ever talk about."

Yep bad pointless argument to make.  Disrespectful though?  Not sure that's the word I'd use to describe it but a terrible inclusion in the post nonetheless from a purely argumentative standpoint.  Also like I said initially what we were dealing with was an off hand throwaway comment that was part of a larger post.  That's not to say that if I write something people ought not to respond to it or take offense in some way, but that was the initial intent all the same.

@Shadowmage:  I guess that's possible.  If you're pretty much going to take a guaranteed loss to try an idea that probably won't work but has a slight chance of taking off or tapping some new undiscovered interest group something must exist to cover for the almost inevitable loss in revenue.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 06, 2014, 11:34:03 PM
Admittedly I probably shouldn't have responded to the whole "who gives a shit bit so bluntly" (also admittedly I have to say for several reasons I don't particularly take TIF posts at face value anymore so if it looks like I'm speaking a little sideways and ironically it's cause I kind of am)

In fairness, I do make a lot of jests and am highly sarcastic a lot of the time.  I wasn't being humorous here, though.  I'll try to put up my "SERIOUS BUSINESS" flags so people know what's going on in the future.  Maybe a lack of f-bombs?  Do those help?

Quote
but I've long since learned my lesson about not striking when the opportunity presents itself to make the points I want to make be they judged as ad hominem, strawmen or whatever.

The only inappropriate thing was the HxH comment.  I didn't drop that because of the genre.  I was highly enjoying it when I got behind, but obviously I wasn't enjoying it so much that I made it a necessary part of my life.  That isn't supposed to be a criticism of the show itself, but of my own particular habits.  I have backlogs a mile long, as it takes a lot of my time with school, work, writing the piddly articles I do here, and keeping up on the current season.  I still have to see Idolmaster Xenoglossia for crying out loud.

Anyway, I made the accusations first about your state of mind regarding the fandom, but they weren't designed as a personal attack on your fandom, but an examination of where you're coming from.  You've stated here on the forums that you're at a brink, a brink that we all get to at one point in our lives, where you don't like where anime is going and were thinking of not watching anything (except the Gundam stuff).  I've been watching anime "seriously" for 25 years now.  I've had that brink several times, and I always come back, because I find something new that piques my interest.  Whether that be a fresh, new idea or injections of new blood in the directing or writing side of things, something always manages to win me over again.

Quote
Perhaps the way I've learned it (and perhaps learning that maybe it doesn't need to be applied in practice so much here) is that not taking those opportunities will come back to bite you in the ass in the long run but as people keep insisting that sort of thing doesn't happen here....you know the whole refusal to play fair and my way or the highway approach or as you guys putting it NHRV not being "the fandom".  My bad there.

I think the problem is exactly what you mentioned at the beginning of your post:  "who are you supposed to be arguing with here".  We're not the regular fanbases out there that are gushing over these things with nary a thought of objectivity to go with our subjectivity.  We do have a few people around who are going to act the fanboy at times, myself included, but mostly we stick to a higher standard.  So, when you go to vent about people who think F/SN is the greatest thing the anime world has to offer, you're talking over our heads.  Or under them.  Whichever.

Quote
Again though the question that keeps puzzling me is how get to the point where it's reliant on this sort of low bar entry media to sustain itself, but oh well it's probably not fair to puzzle over that discussion here.  To be honest I really never expected this to end up yet another extended topic but I guess I have that effect on people where comment spoken out of the side of my mouth gets questioned and then I end up just pouring out every idea that's on my mind and it expands from there as a verbal black hole that pulls everyone in.

If I may, I think you're paying way too much attention to the copycatting that happens with any successful franchise.  When a show like Bakemonogatari comes along, with its oodles and oodles of dialogue and quirky directorial choices, and makes a SHIT TON of money, you're going to see other companies try to capitalize on the same thing as a "fad".  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  I think that's why you see a "shift" to these dialogue heavy / exposition shows.  The success of Madoka also lead to a lot of other attempts at deconstruction and shock value shows, some of which worked and some of which didn't.

This is why it is UTTERLY important for us, as fans, to embrace the new and the original when we do see it, and we shouldn't limit our perspectives from media that make us hold our nose to bear it.  Yeah, there's a lot of shit writing in VNs and LNs, and manga, and books, and everywhere.  It is those gems that you find that you need to embrace and laud for their successes, and those successes can come from ANYWHERE.  I mean, did you expect that the highest sales for this season, and the highest acclaim, would come form an anime that's based on a cellphone trading card game?  And I might not have given it a chance because of the basis of it's source material.  Anime based on a cellphone trading card game?  You gotta be shitting me.  But it works, and I'm glad I gave it a shot.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on November 06, 2014, 11:50:10 PM
Yep bad pointless argument to make.  Disrespectful though?  Not sure that's the word I'd use to describe it but a terrible inclusion in the post nonetheless from a purely argumentative standpoint.  Also like I said initially what we were dealing with was an off hand throwaway comment that was part of a larger post.  That's not to say that if I write something people ought not to respond to it or take offense in some way, but that was the initial intent all the same.

Alright, I get it, just because one part of your argument's faulty doesn't mean the whole thing is. I'm not concerned about the entirety of the argument. I was more concerned about that specific part and the second thing I pointed out. I rushed into the former out of a respect for TIF, but the latter basically goes back to what he just said. You can argue about it all you want, but it goes over or under our heads. We just don't worry about that kind of stuff.

People have been saying that the movie industry would be dead because there's a lot of trash going around these days, and films such as Transformers are taking the cake. Despite this, we got Whiplash, Boyhood, Birdman, etc etc and many other original, captivating movies that people have chosen to ignore. There's never going to be a season full of things you enjoy, but you're far too easily dismissive of anime based on genre, popularity, inspiration, and origin. I'm not just referring to this show.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on November 07, 2014, 12:10:35 AM
I think what KS is concerned about in the industry currently is that all the production decisions are basically dominated by a couple companies, namely Aniplex and Bandai at this point. He for whatever reason thinks Aniplex makes mostly bad anime that is too commercially influenced and what not. It's not like say the videogame industry which has a more indie scene, nor is it Hollywood where directors can first start out with independent films and get noticed. Anime is pretty insular and the power resides in the hands of the few and they have decided to produce most of their content lately from crappily written light novels.  Now I am of the opinion that generally most anime every season tended to suck regardless, however, I do think the source of ideas in the industry is important to consider. Manga has plenty of crap, but I think it is just a far more expansive and creative pool of ideas than what most LN's bring. Personally these concerns haven't been a large issue for me since 2011, though it was during 2008-2010, because I've been able to somehow find very good anime every year still. Like TIF said, we've probably all been where KS has been in terms of engagement with anime, but something tends to always pull us back or we just leave completely.

Nonetheless, at the end of the day it's just an anime. Either you enjoy it or you don't for whatever reasons you can find. Why care so much what some random fandom thinks or what production committee is behind what anime? Makes for interesting meta talk perhaps, but really I think most of us here just want to discuss the anime themselves and aren't involved in that bullshit so it just isn't very relevant to us.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on November 08, 2014, 04:48:58 PM
5:
Badass Shirio is badass. Thank you Ufotable.

Other then that I have nothing to complain about. In fact I enjoyed it even more than episode 3. UBW starts to get really good now.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on November 08, 2014, 07:17:40 PM
5:

The Rin vs Shiro fight was alright. Next episode, we'll finally get to see HEMA and Kenjutsu clash. One of my most anticipated fight actually.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on November 08, 2014, 07:29:12 PM
5:

Every episode feels so short. I really hope they include the conversation with Archer at the beginning of next episode. One of the better scenes early on.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 08, 2014, 10:49:57 PM
Even the infodump episodes go by fast.  That's how you know a show is engrossing.  Karen Senki is 11 minutes long and feels like a goddamned chore.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on November 09, 2014, 02:23:28 AM
5:

I am not OK with Rin's behavior this episode. If you want her to be ruthless and try to kill Shiro, that's fine. If you want her to be good-hearted, and have her jump to help Shiro the moment's he's injured, that's also fine. But it seems obvious that these things should not occur within the same 5 minutes, or Rin looks like a hypocritical schizophrenic. If you must have her do both things, then she must be begrudge doing one of the two.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 09, 2014, 02:55:59 AM
Except Rin IS a hypocritical schizophrenic.  She's a tsundere!
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on November 09, 2014, 03:00:30 AM
One of Rin's struggles in the story is the conflict between her personal feelings and the teachings of a magus. I think it's quite transparent that her heart is never really in it when it comes to Shirou both because of her sister and herself.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 09, 2014, 03:02:04 AM
Hell, if you want, go back and watch the DEEN version of these scenes.  You wont have to worry about her being a hypocritical schizophrenic, just a goofball lunatic.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on November 09, 2014, 03:11:52 AM
Episode 5

Rider never looked this good in any Fate adaptation she was in thus far.  Though, if Shiro doesn't believe in her power he will once he sees a fort of blood coming his way.  I also happened to like the brief fight between Shiro and Tosaka since I did enjoy master vs master battles in F/Z.  Not only that, next episode is getting me pumped up because: Hiken, Tsubame Gaeshi!
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on November 09, 2014, 03:12:48 AM
Well, she's a tsundere but for the sake of argument, the sudden appearance of an another servant or much less an attack on an innocent girl on the school grounds is something they wouldn't have called for. Second, if it wasn't for Shirou her head would have probably been pierced by that chained dagger so once again he saved her life, and Rin likes to pay her debts.

I'm probably just grasping at straws here but tsunderes man...

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on November 09, 2014, 11:10:20 AM
I mean, literally all they needed to do for me to choke this down was throw in a "what a shame" or "I'm sorry" during the attack on Shiro, or a "Tch!" afterwards. It's such an easy thing to do; not doing makes me think the writer figured that what he had was good enough. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Aelms on November 09, 2014, 12:15:16 PM
Maybe the writer wanted to save those kinds of personal thoughts as a revelation later into the story so that you can reflect upon earlier events with the information in mind and develop a new perspective.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on November 09, 2014, 02:59:29 PM
Create a problem now so you can try and fix it later?

Naw.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 09, 2014, 05:48:07 PM
I'm not sure I'm agreeing that this is such a big deal, but, again, maybe that's because I'm contrasting this version with the DEEN version.  Tohsaka has been finding excuses not to attack Shirou, citing debts and whatever, but once cornered with her own stances (backed by Archer nagging her [for his own reasons]), her stubborn pride wouldn't allow her to just let him have a free pass anymore.  In effect, she was caught in her own logic.  One of those "hold your nose and do it" things, but she wasn't going to half ass it.  The ends justify the means in the magical world, and regardless of how she feels for Shirou, the Grail is the goal, not him.

One of her character developments is getting over this, as Reckoner points out above.  Then she gets jackhammered.  OH YEAH.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Sung-Hwan on November 09, 2014, 08:00:21 PM
Just dropping by. I scrolled through the arguments last page and love how insightful you guys are on the workings of the anime medium. Gives me new perspectives and angles so I appreciate it!
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 09, 2014, 11:10:30 PM
So join in the conversation or be banned on suspicion of being a Korean bot.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on November 09, 2014, 11:47:46 PM
One of her character developments is getting over this, as Reckoner points out above.  Then she gets jackhammered.  OH YEAH.

Another thing that should be pointed out is that if she really wanted Shirou dead she could've just ordered Archer to kill him. Girl be conflicted yo.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on November 09, 2014, 11:53:44 PM
Good points, I didn't think of the Archer thing.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: gpower on November 10, 2014, 12:32:17 AM
So join in the conversation or be banned on suspicion of being a Korean bot.

lurk lurk lurk

Whatcha looking at. There's no one here.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on November 10, 2014, 05:31:24 AM
Rin also needs to show Shirou that this war is not bs because she thinks he's not taking it seriously enough and thinks with his current attitude he will be killed very easily.

Funny enough, even though Rin seems to be very stern in her philosophy and way of being at times, she's actually the most normal of all the cast members (well her and lancer).
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on November 10, 2014, 01:41:30 PM
5:

This indirect Kiritsugu characterization is really good stuff.

Also, I'm sad about them using CG to animate smoke. Hand-drawn smoke animation is one of the more fun things about animated fights.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Aelms on November 10, 2014, 09:46:18 PM
Create a problem now so you can try and fix it later?

Naw.

I wouldn't even consider it a problem in the first place. Just because a character conflict isn't shown on camera doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We can all already infer that there's an inner conflict and since the true nature of it has such strong implications, the director could'v easily decided to give her actions more weight as more is revealed about her motivations later in the series rather than make it blatant every time it affects her actions.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on November 11, 2014, 10:54:48 AM
I'm afraid I can't let you do that, Aelms.

Quote
I wouldn't even consider it a problem in the first place. Just because a character conflict isn't shown on camera doesn't mean it doesn't exist...the director could'v easily decided to give her actions more weight as more is revealed about her motivations later in the series rather than make it blatant every time it affects her actions.

The second sentence is of course true, but it is not relevant here. My problem is that Rin's inner conflict this episode needed to be visible, because her contradictory actions offer no insight into what she's thinking. If this conflict does exist, but is not revealed to me until later, then until it is revealed I will be left with an incorrect and unfavorable opinion of Rin's sanity.   

Quote
We can all already infer that there's an inner conflict


Coming from someone who watched Fate/Zero and nothing else, I couldn't. It has since been pointed out to me that what is on the screen already indicates that Rin is not fully committed to killing Shiro; whether the Archer thing was obvious to everyone else, I don't know. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on November 11, 2014, 11:03:43 AM
I think you could already pick up on it from the conversation she has with Shirou at the end of the episode. She was visibly getting pretty upset about how Kiritsugu brought up Shirou as a magus. Saying things like he didn't want Shirou to be a magus, and that he could quit using magic any time. At the end she takes a step back and says in a bitter tone that he was a father before he was a magus, obviously showing resentment to her father who always put up the nobility of the magus above everything.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 11, 2014, 01:24:38 PM
Whatcha looking at. There's no one here.

Unfortunately we get a lot of advertisement bots that come in, attempt to make what looks like a legit post, and then stop working for months before doing it again.  Thing is, they never actually end up advertising anything, probably because someone screwed up the algorithm, or it doesn't work with our forum for some reason.

Don't take it as a comment on newbies, it was more of a test, and since such and such hasn't responded yet, it was probably a spam bot.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on November 11, 2014, 10:24:41 PM
5

Tsun Tsun

Coming from someone who watched Fate/Zero and nothing else, I couldn't. It has since been pointed out to me that what is on the screen already indicates that Rin is not fully committed to killing Shiro; whether the Archer thing was obvious to everyone else, I don't know.
I actually find your perspective interesting.  Since the rest of us know where the story is going, it's hard to tell whether certain events that bridge the narrative actually functions or not, but it seems that tsundere-ness of Rin did not quite shine through as well as should have.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Aelms on November 12, 2014, 12:05:14 AM
@Marid King

Totally thought you were a VN reader since you were so perceptive of Rin's character. My bad.

Regardless, I don't think that the viewer has to always be aware of what certain characters are thinking at every stage, especially when they're not the designated protagonist. There are some things that don't have to be made explicit until the show deliberately calls for its attention.

I also don't think its a problem for you to be doubting any of the characters' sanity, especially considering their upbringing and the setting itself. Who wants to see a war between seven perfectly sane and easily understandable individuals in a battle royale to the death?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on November 15, 2014, 03:11:26 PM
Episode 6

Archer's characterization is coming along quite nicely.  Not only that, Caster has already got more personality then in any other Fate adaptation she has been in.  I really hope they expand on the relationship between her and her master.  That was an interesting facet that was hardly explored.  Next episode, it looks like some Rule Breaker time.  Waiting on the fight between Kojirou and Arthuria is going to be agonizing.

On another note, it looks like Kalafina's single "Believe" is now out.  Great time to be a Fate/Stay Night fan right now.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on November 15, 2014, 03:37:57 PM
6:

All this characterization is quite nicely hidden in all the cracks. Archer's was rather obvious, though I'm not sure if that was him saying this despite his amnesia, or if he actually remembered (however hazily) enough of his life. There is also something up with how reluctant Saber is to reveal why she wants the Grail, and a delightful piece of info in how Shinji calls Sakura a (magical) dumbass which could be incredibly ironic, if you watched Fate/Zero.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on November 15, 2014, 04:13:55 PM
6:

The Saber and Shirou moment at that warehouse was quite a nice touch. I have always felt that their relationship and interactions were much better in UBW and HF(before darkening). It's more like they are better as buddies than lovers. I still ship them though :D

Also Archer seems more of a less asshole to Shirou here.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Gadget on November 15, 2014, 10:27:08 PM
6:
"I think things are going to get violence." Can't wait till next week. So it will be a two on two this time. Berserker powers is so much to be feared. Is it because Berserker has shown his hand? I agree with Redgrave that Saber and Shirou are more buddies than lovers to be. With more focus on Rin, I'm sure that is where the love flag will be planted.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on November 15, 2014, 10:43:52 PM
Fate/Stay Nights tendency to alternate between dialogue/character driven episodes and action set piece ones really seems to bring to mind Gundam Seed which is the other show I can recall where it's extremely noticeable in retrospect when it comes to the early run.  You can pretty much all but predict what you're going to get out of a weeks episode of this based on whether the episode number is an even or odd one.  And that's about my only comment of the week as a non-VN reading secondary sort of guy.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on November 16, 2014, 09:49:56 PM
6

Ah that Archer/Shirou exchange.  I completely forgot about that.  While I remember the overall contents of events, it seems that my recollection of the specific scenes are lacking.  I guess this is what this adaptation is for.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on November 22, 2014, 11:27:01 AM
Episode 7

That was a pretty awesome episode, especially since they made Assassin look really good here.  Dude has some personality and I like it.  The exchange between Archer and Caster sported some pretty good dialogue too.  Also, most importantly of all: "I am the Bone of my Sword."  The extra footage at the end was pretty sweet as well.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on November 22, 2014, 03:56:14 PM
7:
Really, Archer is just as much a tsundere as his Master.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on November 22, 2014, 05:24:37 PM
7:

Those foreshadowing and parallels with Kerry. The directing is somewhat all over the place if that makes sense.

In a way, Kojirou is a lot like Diarmuid only he doesn't have some tragic backstory. He did got defeated by Miyamoto Musashi in the end though. And so HEMA and Kenjutsu Clashed. He was able to hold off Saber because of the his higher position and the length of his sword. Plus, he is better than Saber when it comes to pure swordsmanship. To be able to be battle a servant with superior stats and magic only with pure skill and force is truly commendable. I also thought that they did a pretty good job animating Tsubame Gaeshi and Saber's instincts as her seeing herself dying. It's funny how he called is a secret technique then later explains it to saber how it works. Then again, Saber will be able to pick up fast of how TG works anyway.

On the other hand, Archer's fighting style with Kanshou and Bakuya was truly dance-like movements like it was described by both Shirou and Saber in the VN when he fought Kojirou. They did a good  job of portraying how he actually fights unlike in lolDeen.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on November 22, 2014, 06:40:22 PM
7

Some nice fight sequences here.  I'm not sure the show needed to have the character stand around and annunciate every single idea that runs through their mind (though I'm aware it's about half the length of the VN), but it's the methodology most closely resembling the source material.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on November 23, 2014, 09:30:53 AM
7:

Loved the face Assassin made when he explains he had too much time.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Aelms on November 23, 2014, 10:31:56 AM
@TIF

I'm sure there are a lot of lurkers here that didn't read the VN. Some things are just that much clearer in retrospect and I really think it's better if you keep it out of sight for them.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 23, 2014, 05:47:53 PM
Not sure I agree on worrying about spoiler freeing this particular thread.  F/SN is not a new product, obscure, and it already has had adaptations done.

Unless the consensus thinks it should be, in which case I'll abide.

EDIT:

Note, original post deleted, so this conversation makes no sense now.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on November 23, 2014, 05:50:14 PM
I've since gone and spoiler a bit of this for myself on TV Tropes, so I don't really mind.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on November 23, 2014, 06:00:03 PM
It's not like the anime is even trying to hide certain details regarding Shirou/Archer. It didn't get more obvious than the pendant paradox (Archer returned the same exact pendant Shirou picked up). The only thing that shouldn't be spoiled here is HF content because there exists no adaption of it so far.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on November 23, 2014, 06:24:15 PM
I've never played past the Fate section of the game, but if that's deemed to be my fault, I suppose it'll be that way. I might just stay away from the board until the show's done and over with.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on November 23, 2014, 07:51:39 PM
It's not like the Fate fanbase at large has ever cared at any point about the "secondaries" and such so why should it really start caring now?  Might as well spoil away cause if people don't get spoiled here they'll probably get spoiled in some other location anyway since there's this assumption that everyone even casually following the show should have their canon down pat and damn well be ready to get called out on it or have their concerns ignored if they don't.

@Kiniest:  In this particular instance it essentially is your fault even though really it isn't.  That's just the way it is when it comes to Fate I learned.  Secondaries are called as such for a reason.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on November 23, 2014, 08:27:18 PM
@Kiniest:  In this particular instance it essentially is your fault even though really it isn't.  That's just the way it is when it comes to Fate I learned.  Secondaries are called as such for a reason.
*shrugs* Can't be helped. If something's popular enough that spoilers are casually known, the best you can do is watch it solitary so you don't have to worry about that stuff. I will state, however, that just because something's popular or well-aged, doesn't mean I've had the chance to watch it. I've still not finished Evangelion, or Planetes, or Ideon. It's not because I don't want to, but because my schedule's been too hectic for me to even follow anything bar what's currently airing.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on November 23, 2014, 08:38:29 PM
Uh... I think some restraint would be nice with regards to future details in UBW. Sorry if I made that ambiguous. All I was saying is that this particular plot detail is glaringly obvious.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 23, 2014, 09:42:04 PM
Hey KS?  Next time word that so that you can get under "being a dickbag" and simply "being a douche", okay?

In light of the opinions of others, I'll refrain form spoilering anything from now on, and have deleted my post above.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on November 23, 2014, 10:09:22 PM
Uh... I think some restraint would be nice with regards to future details in UBW. Sorry if I made that ambiguous. All I was saying is that this particular plot detail is glaringly obvious.

I'm actually not far enough ahead in the show to have seen this plot detail, so whatever I'd be spoiled in up to this point was my fault anyways. I wasn't actually put off by that particular explanation. Regardless, thanks for the reassurance.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: JC on November 23, 2014, 10:21:31 PM
The way Archer tried "killing" shiro is so tsun-tsun lol. Or is Shirou a natural when it comes to combat that he somehow didn't die?

Uh... I think some restraint would be nice with regards to future details in UBW. Sorry if I made that ambiguous. All I was saying is that this particular plot detail is glaringly obvious.
Oh it's quite obvious that spoiler is almost not required XD
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on November 23, 2014, 10:36:42 PM
@Kiniest:  In this particular instance it essentially is your fault even though really it isn't.  That's just the way it is when it comes to Fate I learned.  Secondaries are called as such for a reason.
*shrugs* Can't be helped. If something's popular enough that spoilers are casually known, the best you can do is watch it solitary so you don't have to worry about that stuff. I will state, however, that just because something's popular or well-aged, doesn't mean I've had the chance to watch it. I've still not finished Evangelion, or Planetes, or Ideon. It's not because I don't want to, but because my schedule's been too hectic for me to even follow anything bar what's currently airing.

I currently have this still unbroken streak of not having seen Avatar in any capacity even once to date if that's any standard of comparison which always tends to end up being really awkward whenever it's brought up in a conversation cause I'll invariably be the only one who can't participate for having not actually seen it.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on November 29, 2014, 03:56:23 PM
8:
And to think it wasn't until the second cour that a Servant got killed in Fate/Zero...

I thought the scene in the beginning (With Shirou imagining his body becoming a bunch of swords) was a little awkwardly done, but other then that great episode.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 29, 2014, 06:10:02 PM
8:

Not really a spoiler by this point, but Rider's death was always one of those events that bugged me about F/SN.  Basically, it was just another case of the Established Rules not mattering when it was plot convenient.  Nasu, in his own works, is basically Mad Madam Mim as Archimedes so blithely puts it.  "Rules indeed!  She only wants rules so she can break 'em!"

In fact, just about every major plot point for each arc contains some kind of major rule breaking, which makes me wonder why there are rules to begin with.  And, no, I don't mean the rules governing the war, but the rules that the writer sets up himself to create the environment that the characters act in.  Then he violates them, repeatedly, to create tension and drama.  Also known as "lazy ****ing writing."
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on November 29, 2014, 06:22:41 PM
Not that this doesn't happen (Nasu is quite well known for it), but what about Rider's death was against the rules? I'm drawing a blank.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on November 29, 2014, 08:04:04 PM
8

Shinji is the most insufferable character in the Fate franchise, and I'm kind of sad that this is UBW since it will be his best route.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on November 29, 2014, 10:01:40 PM
Episode 8

What sucks is that it looks like I won't be seeing Blood Fort Andromeda nor Bellpheron anytime soon.  At the same time, Shinji has always been a little bitch and it seems no different here.  One thing I did like was how they teased one of the supposed endings to the UBW route in the beginning.  It was pretty much the Unlimited Blade Works completely invading Shirou's body which seems to be a consequence of that power.  Pretty cool stuff right there.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 29, 2014, 10:09:52 PM
Not that this doesn't happen (Nasu is quite well known for it), but what about Rider's death was against the rules? I'm drawing a blank.

No discussion until the mystery killer is revealed.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on December 06, 2014, 06:00:30 PM
Episode 9

A setup episode which foreshadows the great King's entrance into the war.  We also get a reminder of how much Kiritsugu really plays into Shirou's life near the end too.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on December 06, 2014, 07:27:53 PM
9:
Kirei really is great, isn't he. He knew exactly what to say to get Shinji just where he wants him. Such an expert troll.

Meanwhile reading the Fate forums at MAL have given me cancer.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on December 06, 2014, 08:44:48 PM
9

While a lot of the episode feels a tad filler-ish, I really liked Taiga explaining her perspective of Shriou and Kiritsugu to Saber.  It probably sets a few things straight after the ending of Zero.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on December 06, 2014, 10:23:12 PM
9:
Kirei really is great, isn't he. He knew exactly what to say to get Shinji just where he wants him. Such an expert troll.

Meanwhile reading the Fate forums at MAL have given me cancer.

Yep they'll do that.  Never will you see business be more serious.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Mori on December 07, 2014, 06:34:10 PM
Yeah. I don't like Shirou in this one either. I remember playing the VN a long time ago, and UBW was my favorite route, but something about this adaptation isn't working for me. I like how there's more context to Shirou's actions in this one, but his everyday interactions with Rin and everyone else in the school (which eats up a lot of each episode) feel flat. He only gets interesting when he's faced with anything vaguely threatening where the clash of ideals reaches the forefront, otherwise he just comes off as passive. Or maybe the dating sim elements of this series are making it difficult to take this all too seriously.

Well, there are still many things to look forward to in this arc, so I'm not too worried.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: fuu on December 08, 2014, 12:19:39 AM
Maybe it's because I watched the entirety of Fate Zero in about 3 days but I'm finding the former a lot more compelling than this adaptation of UBW. Needless to say it's superior to Deen's movie version (awful) and the choreographed fight scenes are phenomenal but it just lacks...something.

It's been many years since I played the VN but what I do remember and enjoy were Shirou's monologues and expositions, something which seems to be starkly missing here. As a result, I find his character (alongside the rest of the cast, really) less relatable than they were in the original medium.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on December 08, 2014, 12:55:07 AM
It's because of the lack of ever present feeling I tell you.

In all seriousness though, my only significant complaint at this juncture is the chemistry between Shirou and Rin feels off compared to the VN. Shirou's monologues and expositions would definitely be nice but unfortunately this is a visual medium and there are limitations. They have done a lot of good in still trying to make his character come across right. More scenes like the last few minutes could benefit this adaption though.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on December 08, 2014, 11:31:23 AM
10:

With the exception of Rin, it just feels like these characters lack polish and complexity.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on December 08, 2014, 02:17:23 PM
>It's because of the lack of ever present feeling I tell you.

haha, yeah maybe they'll remix it somewhere. I do think the soundtrack is quite good regardless.

It does take a little while for certain characters to become compelling even in the original, but I think it pays off by the end.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on December 08, 2014, 03:57:25 PM
10:

With the exception of Rin, it just feels like these characters lack polish and complexity.

It's because it's not written by the ever infallible Gen Urobuchi most likely.  ;)
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on December 08, 2014, 04:24:32 PM
haha, yeah maybe they'll remix it somewhere. I do think the soundtrack is quite good regardless.

I think the soundtrack is an improvement to Zero, but after the episode ends ****, i don't remember any of them.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on December 08, 2014, 06:18:05 PM
The soundtrack is a bit unique in today's current anime climate because it's literally scored to the scene. Certain beats and sounds are played to match the actions happening on screen. An example is when lancer stabs Shirou in episode 1. Typically they just lay background music to match the mood of a scene and that's about it. It's pretty cool stuff, though its listenability outside the show is probably going to suffer. I demand my Emiya remix in any case.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on December 08, 2014, 06:37:37 PM
The soundtrack is a bit unique in today's current anime climate because it's literally scored to the scene. Certain beats and sounds are played to match the actions happening on screen. An example is when lancer stabs Shirou in episode 1. Typically they just lay background music to match the mood of a scene and that's about it. It's pretty cool stuff, though it's listenability outside the show is probably going to suffer. I demand my Emiya remix in any case.

That's how it should be done IMO, really helps one get more into the action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZd6-t27fx8&list=PL67402E34484EB718#t=356
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6qNmzmThLQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nMXj0oEaY0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QAJE8kGOIs&list=PLqfj1HiLr7sb7XvaRQJq2UZZMQIfL7Kil&index=4

A few examples off the top of my head with this being done really well.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on December 08, 2014, 07:48:04 PM
I demand my Emiya remix in any case.

Oh, we will definitely have a Remiyax. It's the most iconic soundtrack in fate after all.

Knowing Fukasawa, it will probably sound like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euQbNBn5yCU

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on December 08, 2014, 08:35:06 PM
haha, yeah maybe they'll remix it somewhere. I do think the soundtrack is quite good regardless.

I think the soundtrack is an improvement to Zero, but after the episode ends ****, i don't remember any of them.

Well the music is written to compliment the scenes they are in like Reckoner said. Actually music being memorable/not memorable isn't really an issue. Extra credit tackled this issue on video game music which is basically the same deal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKgHrz_Wv6o

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on December 12, 2014, 06:02:03 PM
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2014/12/12/hour-long-fatestay-night-unlimited-blade-works-season-finale-announced
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on December 12, 2014, 08:29:48 PM
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2014/12/12/hour-long-fatestay-night-unlimited-blade-works-season-finale-announced

The way I understood the announcement this is basically episodes 12-13 put together.  In any case this should be cause for a mass freakout somewhere or other.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on December 13, 2014, 02:33:46 PM
Episode 10

The chanting of Unlimited Blade Works in Japanese instead of the usual English was pretty damn cool.  The fight scenes featuring Kuzuki really makes want to see him take on Kirei and/or Kiritsugu in a dream match up.  Not only that, I am glad we finally get a little insight on his character which was missing in Studio DEEN's adaptation.  It also looks like we might get more on the dynamic between him and Caster as well.

On another note, I just recieved my copy of Kalafina's single, "Believe" which came with a F/SN: UBW collector's post card which makes it all perfect for me today.  (It also came with a post card featuring Kalafina themselves on it too.)
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on December 13, 2014, 02:42:49 PM
Crunchy translation is shit. This is the literal translation of what Rin is saying rather than the commonly known ENGRISH one.

 
Quote
His body is made out of swords
 His blood is of iron and his heart of glass
 He survived through countless battles
 Not even once retreating
 Not even once being understood
 He was always alone
 Intoxicated with victory in a hill of swords
 Thus, his life has no meaning
 That body was certainly made out of swords
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on December 13, 2014, 04:23:20 PM
10

Holy crap, Rin is weak.  Both Kuzuki and Shirou outranks her despite her superior magics.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on December 13, 2014, 05:31:11 PM
While Kuzuki is a trained assassin, he also have his enhancements from Caster. His fighting style Snake has the element of surprise that is why he was briefly able to match Saber but it is also designed to end a fight as short as possible so once the opponent understand the mechanics of it it won't be as effective the second time.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 15, 2014, 02:35:51 AM
Which is exactly what drove me nuts about Rider's death.  I don't really give a flying fist **** if Caster is buffing people, humans are NOT supposed to be able to take on servants, period.  The whole point behind a servant is to provide an amazing avatar that can overwhelm your opponents.  If one servant can put a human on equal footing with a servant, than what is the point of having servants in the first place?  Illya can't even take on a servant, and she's arguably the strongest mage, period, not to mention
the embodiment of the grail itself
.  If THAT can't take on a servant, than why can Caster just buff people to take them on?

It just drives me nuts.  Either the servants are something special or they're not.  Worse, Rider is apparently too stupid to realize that Kazuki was buffed in the first place.  I can buy her getting overconfident at dealing with a mere human, but not even having the wherewithal sense the magic enhancements when servants always seem to be able to sense that crap at other times bugged me to no end.  F/SN's Rider doesn't really get treated like anything but a jobber until Heaven's Feel anyway, but I just could never deal with Kazuki.  Worse, he's only apparently this awesome in the UBW route, otherwise he's nonexistent.

Bah.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on December 15, 2014, 09:58:49 AM
Caster is from a period where the magic is nearly the level of True Magic, the magic of the gods, which is extremely powerful.

The modern mages are pale in power compared with her, even Illya. In the Nasuverse, maybe only Aoko overcome Caster in raw power, by her control of the Fifth Magic.

But I don't buy Kazuki enhancements, too convenient.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Gadget on December 15, 2014, 10:40:20 AM
But it was mention in this F/SN, it's about breaking the rules and getting away with it. And Caster got a power up because she's sucking mana from the city.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on December 15, 2014, 08:10:19 PM
Which is exactly what drove me nuts about Rider's death.  I don't really give a flying fist **** if Caster is buffing people, humans are NOT supposed to be able to take on servants, period.  The whole point behind a servant is to provide an amazing avatar that can overwhelm your opponents.  If one servant can put a human on equal footing with a servant, than what is the point of having servants in the first place?  Illya can't even take on a servant, and she's arguably the strongest mage, period, not to mention
the embodiment of the grail itself
.  If THAT can't take on a servant, than why can Caster just buff people to take them on?

This is simply untrue. Servants are seen as monstrously strong, yes. However, this doesn't mean that humans in the type-moon universe can't come close to servants in fighting. I think it was said for example that Ryougi Shiki in Kara no Kyoukai and Ciel in Tsukihime could fight a defensive fight against a servant. They don't have the aid of servants either. Kuzuki does have the aid of a servant, and he had the benefit of a surprise fighting style that is hard to handle on first encounter. If Saber fought Kuzuki ever again, he'd be toast. Special circumstances can allow humans to beat servants all the time. There is no rule that servants are immune to humans, just that servants are better suited to fighting other servants. That hasn't been violated.

It just drives me nuts.  Either the servants are something special or they're not.  Worse, Rider is apparently too stupid to realize that Kazuki was buffed in the first place.  I can buy her getting overconfident at dealing with a mere human, but not even having the wherewithal sense the magic enhancements when servants always seem to be able to sense that crap at other times bugged me to no end.  F/SN's Rider doesn't really get treated like anything but a jobber until Heaven's Feel anyway, but I just could never deal with Kazuki.  Worse, he's only apparently this awesome in the UBW route, otherwise he's nonexistent.

We're not talking about any ordinary magic here. This is caster's magic which is close to true magic. Secondly, he should be the same in any route, but it's only in this route that Shirou and co. are ever forced to deal with him.

It also doesn't matter whether Rider realized or not that Kuzuki was buffed. She is forced to protect her master and without any mana  she is basically shit tier ability. Even Shirou was able to fend her off decently well while hurt with a metal pipe of all things.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on December 15, 2014, 09:29:04 PM
This is simply untrue. Servants are seen as monstrously strong, yes. However, this doesn't mean that humans in the type-moon universe can't come close to servants in fighting. I think it was said for example that Ryougi Shiki in Kara no Kyoukai and Ciel in Tsukihime could fight a defensive fight against a servant. They don't have the aid of servants either. Kuzuki does have the aid of a servant, and he had the benefit of a surprise fighting style that is hard to handle on first encounter. If Saber fought Kuzuki ever again, he'd be toast. Special circumstances can allow humans to beat servants all the time. There is no rule that servants are immune to humans, just that servants are better suited to fighting other servants. That hasn't been violated.

I don't believe TIF is making an in-universe argument at all. I think its a general argument regarding uber-tier characters, more along the lines of "Kuzuki nullifies the appeal of servants from a general storytelling perspective".

Tbh, I would have preferred if this part of the story was done from multiple perspectives. With that, this feels like a resolution, or a convergence. Without it, it feels like a plot twist that could easily feel like an asspull.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Aelms on December 15, 2014, 11:53:20 PM
Maybe my suspense of disbelief is not as sensitive as TIF's but even though F/SN 2006 was my entry to the Type-Moon universe, I never found Kuzuki's ridiculous power level for a human as an issue. Even now that I have a better appreciation of how strong Servants are supposed to be, I don't find it hard at all to believe that Kuzuki is simply the kind of one-trick pony that has the potential of taking out a fighter of much greater value but isn't very useful at all when he's figured out. I can definitely see how this could be jarring for other viewers who feel invested in the already established hierarchy.

I do think there are strong justifications on Rider easily being taken out, though.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on December 16, 2014, 01:56:06 AM
I don't believe TIF is making an in-universe argument at all. I think its a general argument regarding uber-tier characters, more along the lines of "Kuzuki nullifies the appeal of servants from a general storytelling perspective".

Tbh, I would have preferred if this part of the story was done from multiple perspectives. With that, this feels like a resolution, or a convergence. Without it, it feels like a plot twist that could easily feel like an asspull.

I don't quite follow. I contextualized Kuzuki's actions within the universe to show that what he did is extraordinary, but not exactly game breaking with consideration to servant power levels. Especially when you consider what humans are capable of throughout the Type-Moon stories without the aid of servants like Caster, it almost becomes a moot point in my eyes.

The only thing I wish the story provided is more backstory about Kuzuki. It'd be nice to know why he is an ex-assassin.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on December 16, 2014, 02:40:48 AM
I'd like to mention that perhaps Rider didn't have enough supply of mana from the master who will be later revealed in Heaven's Feel. Even then, the Rider class especially Medusa is pretty shit in CQC in the first place while it's Kuzuki's main forte, that and the element of surprise and Caster's manaroids. Then again i blame Nasu for actually not showing the damn thing even in the VN.

The only thing I wish the story provided is more backstory about Kuzuki. It'd be nice to know why he is an ex-assassin.

I believe F/HA explored his character a little bit more. I still haven't played and read the game yet even though the translation is finally finished for after like 7 or 8 years.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on December 16, 2014, 01:03:37 PM
The caster class always struck me as having one of the more interesting balances of the servant casts between weak physical and practical attributes but some really broken form of magic like being able to summon elder gods or cast RPG style buffing magic on people or things.  Really most of the other servants besides Saber seem rather balanced between exploitable weaknesses and some game breaking special power up until the point a certain one appears and basically throws all of this out the window and this is one area where I actually have one of those rare agreements with TIF about something.  To me that's probably the most frustrating thing about Type/Moon works is that it'll spend all this dialogue and time building up all these interesting rules and limitations on special powers for it's supporting cast members like say Hunter x Hunter and some of the better shonen action works out there do and then introduce an element to the story that just totally disregards and trivializes all that effort just because.  Shame really and probably why I've historically found the side characters in their stories way more interesting and compelling than a lot of the major ones, though that specifically applies to Zero.

Anyway this about the part where I really remember the original series starting to go bonkers and I'm still not sure how much of that is the original script vs. the bad Deen adaptation considering we start to get things like Super Servants (The one in particular I'm talking about is what I consider one of the worst examples of an out of place hedonistic OP for the sake of being OP characters that just trivializes everything he comes into contact with and pretty much ruins the story for me in a way any time he gets too involved to the point where I seriously wonder if the writer is actually trying to undermine his own work and efforts with him and frustrate the reader/viewer for their time and efforts spent up to the point he appears as well) going on rampages of their own, guys tracing full powered duplicates of legendary "one of a kind" weapons out of thin air to change the flow of battle and just other kind of game breaking nonsense that make all the time spent describing the rules and limitations of the grail war kind of a red herring of questionably useful exposition.  I know this isn't quite the same as the FATE route though and the movie never got the time it needed to even carry the story of this one properly, but yeah going to be interesting to see how this one handles that sort of downturn in my opinion of the structure and stability of the world/cast building that creeps up in every Type/Moon work that isn't Kara no Kyokai.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on December 16, 2014, 02:09:33 PM
I don't quite follow. I contextualized Kuzuki's actions within the universe to show that what he did is extraordinary, but not exactly game breaking with consideration to servant power levels. Especially when you consider what humans are capable of throughout the Type-Moon stories without the aid of servants like Caster, it almost becomes a moot point in my eyes.

You're right: Kuzuki's actions are not entirely unusual from an in-universe perspective. Rare, yes; a one-time thing, also yes. But I think TIF's argument was about " The whole point behind a servant", when you view servants (in general) from outside the universe we're given here. I think he disagrees with the decision to have humans in the Nasuverse who can take on servants, because servants, as a plot point, are supposed to be an ace in the hole. When an ace in the hole (Saber) is casually overridden by something that has not itself been set up as an ace in the hole (Kuzuki), it can feel like wonky storytelling. You have to admit the fact that, since Kuzuki really just comes out of nowhere, this sudden turn can feel a bit random.
I think there was an easy way out of this: Fate/Zero's emphasis on cautiousness and information gathering before combat. Because that isn't as strong here, in that Shirou and Rin have their fits of carelessness, its easier to see Kuzuki as a random storytelling decision. I mean, if you contrast this with that moment in
Fate/Zero where Gilgamesh pulls out his ace in the hole against Rider's noble phantasm,
it should be evident that this "sudden ace-in-the-hole" twist can be much more effective than it was here.

I say this not because I agree with TIF, but just because thought that your reply missed the point of what got under TIF's skin. I don't personally hold to this; I think that an out of the blue ace-in-the-hole overrider can throw a story into uncertain territory, but you have to keep the terrain shifting to pull it off well. Running battles are where its at. Attack on Titan's horseback expedition outside the walls comes to mind as a shining example of SUDDENLY TITAN done right.
---

that isn't Kara no Kyokai.
Curious that you mention Kara no Kyoukai, because something like what you say in fact, I would argue, does pop up in Kara no Kyoukai, specifically
in movie 5, regarding the question of how Shiki escapes her cell.
I think the reason you don't note this, or don't count this, is because of how much the series builds up Shiki as a kind of obscenely specifc but obscenely powerful force; the question of whether it feels like a resolution or a waste of time really is a question of buildup, because tbh, most plot points in most stories are rather irrelevant by the conclusion. That KnK plot point itself is one of the stranger ones out there, but its also effective in its own, nihilistic, blackly comical way.
What you're talking about is neither a new idea nor a necessarily bad storytelling choice.

For example The OP character in question has been plenty set up in Fate/Zero. Which, I supposed just adds to the myriad ways in which Fate/Zero, as a prequel, immensely elevates F/SN. Have I fangirled yet over how much I love the job this show is doing at retrospectively characterizing Kiritsugu? Might as well.
Fangirl fangirl fangirl.

P.S. Whar ar the shpoilertags?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on December 16, 2014, 02:48:01 PM
The power levels are kind of hard to read in FSN. It's the classic DBZ syndrome of saying an opponent is strong/unbeatable, but then immediatly after they are dealt with another opponent arises that makes them look miniscule in comparison. 

What Berserker? Why he's the strongest servant of them all, no one stands a chance!

What Saber? Why she's the strongest servant of them all, no one stands a chance!

What Golden Boy? Whe he's the strongest servant of them all, no one stands a chance!
(This is pretty much what the game tells you literally).

So in that regard, having stuff like Kuzuki and Assassin happen is actually kind of a nice change of pace because they are rediculously competent despite not really having the initial traits to be so.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on December 16, 2014, 02:52:15 PM
@Pebble

Let me argue in a non type-moon fag way then so I don't seem like I'm missing the point. I would just look at it like chess. Your queen is the best piece, but it doesn't mean a pawn can't take your queen if you're careless. A queen is still your ace in the hole, and it being taken doesn't mean it stopped being the best piece you had.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on December 16, 2014, 03:26:05 PM
^

Yeah that's a nice explanation.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on December 16, 2014, 03:49:37 PM
For example The OP character in question has been plenty set up in Fate/Zero. Which, I supposed just adds to the myriad ways in which Fate/Zero, as a prequel, immensely elevates F/SN. Have I fangirled yet over how much I love the job this show is doing at retrospectively characterizing Kiritsugu?

Nothing to do with fanboying since I'm about the only person that doesn't seem madly in love with this franchise so much as interested in it but I believe I've argued that I found the one flashback the show did with Kiritsugu during the prologue to give more insight into his personality (in that he actually seemed to have one there), character and overall role and influence in the story than what he got during almost the entirety of Fate/Zero where he came across as almost too stiff and brooding to take much away from as a character.  He felt like a plausible character and actual person in the prologue here though which makes me wish we got to see more of that interpretation of the character in Zero.  In Fate/Zero by comparison though he instead just felt like a block of wood with no charisma to speak of even though I know they were trying to make him come across as the super serious brooding badass and an emotionless killing machine type that "gets shit done and doesn't whine about it" which is what makes a great and compelling lead/focus character for many nowadays but it just did not work for me at all in the end really and he just came across as a dull and boring guy doomed to failure by the nature of it being a prequel.  Not much of a hero or compelling lead character really.

Honestly thank god for Shirou and Rin, I know a lot of people find them weaker leads compared to that guy but they come across as way more plausible and like less extreme characterizations so far with plenty of room to grow and who are interesting enough early on for me to actually care about what happens to them in the end unlike Kiritsugu.  Plus both have actual charisma and again personalities which makes them feel like actual people caught up in something greater than them which is how it feels like it should be.  That to me works better when it comes to lead characters you're going to follow through a story arc.  Hopefully the show doesn't manage to find some way to disappoint in that regard.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 16, 2014, 11:33:21 PM
Apologies for the long copy-paste, but my perception of Servants is fairly similar to what is said in the FSN Wiki (which draws information from direct sources):

Quote
Beings other than Servants that are able to combat Servants are few in modern times. Beings such as Arcueid Brunestud at 30% of her strength, Amaterasu, and Kingprotea would always generally win against a single Servant due to their overwhelming ability. Arcueid could potentially be overwhelmed by two Servants fighting at once even though she is around four times as strong as one, while Amaterasu and Kingprotea require the strength of several Servants to be defeated.[38][36] If speaking of a Servant with an extremely average Noble Phantasm, the members of the Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors, Kouma Kishima, and Aoko Aozaki can fight directly, while Ciel and the Shiki Ryougi's third personality can keep up in a defensive fight that can still be called a fight. Ryougi's normal personality and Shiki Tohno have no chance of matching Servants, but the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception they carry are capable of affecting such beings whether incarnated or spiritual bodies.[37][39][40] Humans utilizing ten Command Spells would also be able to damage Servants.[41] Kirei Kotomine and Kiritsugu Emiya at the peak of their strengths during the Fourth Holy Grail War could defeat Servants, but only when the weakest, Caster and Assassin, are at their most exposed, or when they have special conditions in their favor like surprise or suitability against the opponent.[42]

Against Dead Apostle Ancestors, both are types of beings that live in mystery, so such battles would come down to "having the means of killing the other guy somehow." Servants will generally hold a slight advantage, barring compatibility issues, and the Knight classes, Saber, Archer, and Lancer will all be able to have solid fights. While Saber's Excalibur is extremely effective against those who overwhelm by material quantity and alienness, there are those capable of surviving being hit by Excalibur-class attacks through pure endurance. At the same time, those same ones with extreme endurance would have a tough time with Lancer's Gae Bolg.[43] ORT, to which Earth's rules don't apply, and Primate Murder, which has an advantage against primates and requires seven Counter Guardians to control, can be called in a league of their own above both Ancestors and Servants.[44][45]

I'm utterly unfamiliar with the rest of the Nasuverse beyond Fate, so most of this is Greek to me, but there seems to be a generalized import that Servants are pretty ****ing badass and that humans aren't supposed to be able to defeat them, even humans with insane powers such as the denizens of Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai.  Fascinating that Buffed Kuzuki isn't even mentioned here, since he actually pulled it off.  I see Kirei and Kiritsugu mentioned here, and I am not even sure I buy that they could kill the weakest servants themselves.  As I recall, Kiritsugu was incredibly fearful of directly combating a servant, even if he had surprise on his side.

The point is, Servants were worked up on a pedestal by the author, with a zillion rules and regulations regarding them, and then he goes and flaunts them whenever the plot demands it.  Mostly done in a "oh by the way" kind of fashion where we find out about any rule breaking events only after they've already happened (appropriate, since we're usually getting narration from the eyes of someone who is an ignorant boob).  I'm not even really bitching about the logic in the universe so much as the nature of quality writing.  Or, basically what Pebble said.  Bringing the Servants down a peg for drama is retarded.  If you want to know what I really think, and this is PURELY my opinion without any facts, I think Nasu got stuck in his own logic loop regarding Assassin and needed to invent a new "threat" quickly to fill in the role that was probably supposed to be his.  Since Caster summoned Assassin and ended up chaining him to the gateway of the temple, he couldn't leave and kill someone at the school.  And, since Casters' master was never known during the Fate route, he decided to invent a new threat.

I guess my problem comes down to two things:

1).  Why NOT have someone else defeat Rider?  Saber did it in the Fate route, and I wont spoil the Heaven's Feel route result, but here it wasn't necessary to have a buffed convenient "super-assassin" get a one-trick-pony shot in and then be done for the rest of eternity.  Would it have really broken immersion to have Caster do it?  Or Archer gone rogue?  Or Gil?  Or somehow write Assassin so he wasn't stuck there and let him do it?

2).  Kuzuki Souichirou is a boring ****ing character.  "Gao!  I'm a former assassin turned teacher, so I'm all stoic and shit."  I know his character gets expanded upon a bit in later works, but within the Fate game itself, he's pretty damned dull.  Hell, he's not even funny in Carnival Phantasm, and everybody is funny in that.  He feels like a tacked on character, which fits my opinion above, and Nasu didn't know what to do with him after turning Rider's neck into a corkscrew.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on December 17, 2014, 12:06:00 AM
You seem quite familiar with the spoilers of all the routes TIF, so then you would know that servants get bested by humans at least 4 different times in Fate/Stay Night. I'd understand your point more if Kuzuki was the only human, who through special circumstance, managed to best a servant in F/S N, but he isn't. He's not as much of an anomaly as you make it seem within the context of F/S N, let alone the rest of the type-moon universe.

As for the matter of whether he's interesting or not, well there's nothing to argue about there. I think the character's background is a bit poorly conceived myself. I find the idea of a bad ass, stoic history teacher amusing, but it's not exactly Nasu's greatest work.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 17, 2014, 04:43:14 AM
Not sure which ones you mean, and for spoiler reasons I wont speculate.  I will say this:  the ones I am thinking of are handled much better than this, or at least I cannot think of one that is this obnoxious.  Again, it just might be that I simply don't like the character of Kuzuki Souichiou, but it also just reeks of bad writing to me.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: The Big Guy on December 18, 2014, 02:59:57 AM
In defense of Kuzuki, I think the stoic character type is a good choice, if not necessary, for his apathetic disregard of human life. We needed a different view of heroism besides Archer's utilitarianism and Shirou's "save everyone" philosophy, and Kuzuki  provides this by literally caring about no one but himself and Caster (maybe just Caster). Unfortunately, there are very few characters archetypes that can believably reflect that sentiment (Assassin's character really doesn't fit), and the cartoonishly evil character type was already taken by Shinji. So, we are stuck with a stoic character instead of someone more interesting, Did he have to be a super assassin? No. Does he have at least some role in the thematic framework of the story? I tend to think so.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on December 19, 2014, 11:25:46 AM
In defense of Kuzuki, I think the stoic character type is a good choice, if not necessary, for his apathetic disregard of human life. We needed a different view of heroism besides Archer's utilitarianism and Shirou's "save everyone" philosophy, and Kuzuki  provides this by literally caring about no one but himself and Caster (maybe just Caster). Unfortunately, there are very few characters archetypes that can believably reflect that sentiment (Assassin's character really doesn't fit), and the cartoonishly evil character type was already taken by Shinji. So, we are stuck with a stoic character instead of someone more interesting, Did he have to be a super assassin? No. Does he have at least some role in the thematic framework of the story? I tend to think so.

While its true you can say he does fit the story themes in some regards, honestly he's just not that interesting or fleshed out enough for it to really matter. It's hard to regard him as much more than a plot point for Caster. I think he had potential to be interesting, but they didn't really do much of anything with him.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on December 19, 2014, 01:47:42 PM
In defense of Kuzuki, I think the stoic character type is a good choice, if not necessary, for his apathetic disregard of human life. We needed a different view of heroism besides Archer's utilitarianism and Shirou's "save everyone" philosophy, and Kuzuki  provides this by literally caring about no one but himself and Caster (maybe just Caster). Unfortunately, there are very few characters archetypes that can believably reflect that sentiment (Assassin's character really doesn't fit), and the cartoonishly evil character type was already taken by Shinji. So, we are stuck with a stoic character instead of someone more interesting, Did he have to be a super assassin? No. Does he have at least some role in the thematic framework of the story? I tend to think so.

At least they aren't trying to play a character like that off as the hero this time around.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on December 20, 2014, 01:20:44 PM
Episode 11

I know that people have complaints about the more dialogue-driven episodes in this series.  But, I think this one was worth it, especially in the end where Archer shines again.  Not only that, I will admit that I actually sort of found the exchange between Taiga and Rin to be a little amusing.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: JC on December 21, 2014, 03:15:13 AM
Meh, so few action scenes the past few weeks... I don't think archer's dialogue means much though. I thought we covered the comparison between Shirou and archer, so why are we revisiting it?

And those 'strategy' meetings are cringeworthy. So they talk the whole afternoon and basically conclusion is: rider will self detonate? Wtf?

Hopefully next week we see some fight scenes please please please?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on December 21, 2014, 04:45:21 AM
12:

I know the dialogue in Fate Zero was basically equally meaningless, but at least it sounded cool. This 'hero of justice' talk just makes me think of Power Rangers in the lamest way possible.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on December 21, 2014, 05:55:30 AM
I don't think archer's dialogue means much though. I thought we covered the comparison between Shirou and archer, so why are we revisiting it?

Because it's necessary for Emiya Shirou's characterization. The episode pretty much revealed Shirou's abnormal way of thinking. He is a person whose entire life was driven by an ideal that wasn't even his own, the ideal which he only "borrowed" from Kiritsugu. He doesn't much care about himself and he isn't someone who is able to think for himself but rather he only acts based upon this ideal. Removing this dialogue would only make a major conflict next season weaker and Shirou's realization of why he is following this ideal.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on December 21, 2014, 11:49:25 AM
(http://imgur.com/7QxQjnt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2ThJXJj.png)

Throughout the run of this show much has been made of how on point and perfect ufoTABLE's animation and attention to detail is.  Well turns out nobody is perfect after all.  The wonders of animation where a simple layering issue is the difference between a matter of perspective and a character becoming a giant that fills the entire room.  Also their school is really inconsiderate to handicapped people if they make the ramp end in the bushes.

Kind of funny since it follows up on the whole 6 fingers issue (http://imgur.com/tmbXies) from one of the recent magazine releases also involving Saber.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 21, 2014, 06:22:47 PM
That first shot is a minor embarrassment, the second one is not as defined.  For all we know, there's a gap in that hedge right there that we can't see because it's behind the pillar.

Yeah, that's an excuse, but it works.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on December 21, 2014, 07:54:15 PM
Just for clarification, this was originally an erotic visual novel, right?

Because I forgot to mention, Rin is extremely...womanly. I think they spent hours animating her jacket.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 22, 2014, 02:19:24 AM
It was, though I am fairly sure that was mostly obligatory and not the main focus.  I mean, Nasu may not be a great writer to begin with, but the sex scenes are the stuff of legendary mockery by fans.  Note, the silly was already there BEFORE DEEN decided to get metaphoric with Shirou's "mana replenishment" scene with Saber.  CG Dragons, son of a bitch, man.

Though your mileage may vary regarding the sex appeal of the characters, I was never much of a fan of the original VN's character designs.  UFO Table has done a better job of making everybody a lot more attractive, even if you're one of those ****ers up in arms about Rin's schnoz.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on December 22, 2014, 10:49:54 AM
It is a very nice jacket...
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on December 23, 2014, 12:22:13 AM
12:

I know the dialogue in Fate Zero was basically equally meaningless, but at least it sounded cool. This 'hero of justice' talk just makes me think of Power Rangers in the lamest way possible.

For the record, many of the talks in F/Z revolved around exactly the SAME things. Perhaps you thought there was a bigger sense of gravity to the situation considering the character involved, but lets not forget it's Kiritsugu himself who originally wanted to be a hero of justice and it's meant to be a "childish" dream.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on December 28, 2014, 01:36:42 PM
12:
The wait for April is going to brutal isn't it? Besides some dodgy CG and an odd adaption choice, this was as good as a Fate episode could be.

Between the three hour long episodes and the 90 minutes of extra content the first cour was technically 20 episodes long. Aren't we Fate fans lucky?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on December 28, 2014, 02:20:38 PM
12

Can't wait for the second cour, though I still think that UBW should have been 12 episodes total.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on December 28, 2014, 05:53:35 PM
12:

Well, that was a fun first cour. Ufotable did a really good job adapting this. On one hand, they exceeded my expectations on the other hand, i'm quite disappointed. The lack of monologues is quite sad but yeah i guess since this is a Visual Medium they had to cut many parts of it. Too bad because Emiya Shirou's character truly shines from this monologues. The fight scenes was really well choreograph problem is, some of it have broke some rules and some of this scenes wasn't in the VN. Example of it was the third episode with Saber being able to hurt Berserker and taking one of his lives without even a full excaliblast.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on December 29, 2014, 09:21:03 PM
S1 Finale

Rule Breaker.  That was all I needed in order to be satisfied.  It is going to be a long wait until next April when this resumes.  Not only that, I did like the remix of Disillusion at the end.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on December 31, 2014, 01:15:19 PM
12:

Well, that felt pretty aimless.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on January 01, 2015, 03:35:17 AM
You know, if I knew the second half of the story was going to be a whole lot more Caster doing Caster things, this would be a great place to break the UBW story up, but there's a whole lot of stuff going on after this, involving a lot of people, sometimes seemingly at random.

Of course, now that I think of it, I'm not sure where I would have broken this up that would have been better.  The shit kind of hits the fan from here on out and moves quickly.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on January 10, 2015, 07:57:11 PM
http://www.siliconera.com/2015/01/10/fatestay-night-unlimited-blade-works-import-blu-ray-set-to-cost-400/

Hahahahahaha no. Just no. 400 bucks and you can already build a good gaming PC or buy a PS4.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on January 10, 2015, 09:55:51 PM
While what you say is true, isn't this the same price for almost all blu rays?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on February 22, 2015, 09:13:32 PM
4:  Well I had been warned that this show has some really slow episodes, but at least I was never tempted to hit the fast forward button and at least the things the characters dealt with seemed kind of interesting and necessary.  I though the episode was maybe going to pick up a bit there towards the end but nothing ever really came of any of the encounters anyone had in particular other than people just meeting Saber and kind of accepting her presence and name as totally reasonable and not at all out of the ordinary.  Anyway I feel like interesting is the word that I've most often used to describe how Type/Moon fare comes across to me though I'd be damned if I can say I ever fully comprehended any of what it's supposed to be about in the long run or how it fits together.

Surprisingly I've been finding Rin a bit underwhelming here so far.  I guess her best parts are supposed to come more later on, but I'm always hearing about how she's supposed to be this all time great character and she's pretty amusing and I can totally see why she's become synonymous with the whole tsundere ojou-sama thing, but I'm not exactly seeing a whole lot of depth to her at least yet.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on February 23, 2015, 03:07:05 PM
5:  We get a cameo from Kiritsugu aka the character I call Tin Man here and IMO his assertations and beliefs about trying to be a hero and just as one grows up becoming harder has a hint of truth to it, but I think he's a pretty special case.  I mean he chose pretty much the worst possible path towards this ideal in Fate/Zero by conducting himself pretty much the exact opposite of how a hero would for much of that conflict so IMO it's his own damn fault things didn't work out too well with him.  This character man, I don't know...but I've come to notice that Shiro believes in the ideal more than the person who espoused it himself so maybe he has a chance at doing a little better...provided the universe just doesn't conspire in hilarious fashion to beat such idealism out of him which is all kinds of possible considering how the laws of the universe in Fate/Zero seemed to work.

Of the characters in this story Saber like with Fate/Zero early on is so far is coming across as the one that I can identify most with and am looking to as my gateway back into this stuff.  I like how she keeps trying to get Shiro to pay more attention to his surroundings and possible dangers and he's just kind of like "yeah yeah I'm good, you just conserve your mana".  Unlike with Kiritisugu at least although exasperated with Shiro (and I sense this from Rin a lot too albeit in that tsundere facial expressions sort of way lol) she does seem legitimately concerned about the well being of her master whereas with him she didn't seem to particularly care what happened with him.  Granted their relationship and character seem to match up way more than those two did so it's hardly surprising.

Anyway I remember a scene in the FATE route anime version of this from 2006 where Rin flip flops between trying to kill Shirou and take his command seals because of the opportunity and showing concern for him being injured and it's always been one of the stranger ones because it all happens within the span of about 5 minutes.  Like the guy is cut and bleeding and she's like "WTF" but the amount of damage she could have done to him had any of those shots connected during the chase in the school would have been way worse.  It's like she's not at all prepared for the consequences of her actions the way she seems to think she is.  I also find it funny how unbothered by this Shiro seems to be and how quickly he's willing to trust Rin with anything and everything again after all that happened.  As I recall though that was the last time anything like that really happened between them in that route and Rin just dropped the whole idea of trying to take him out of the war.

So yeah Rider, I remember this one from that adaptation as well with the whole S&M design aesthetic.  Reminds me of something I'd see as a design for a demon or Persona in a Shin Megami Tensei game.  No secrets here, Shinji is obviously responsibly for the disappearance of the archery club girl and Rider is the mystery servant stocking and draining people of mana since the very get go.  I also find it kind of amusing that whenever it seems like it's time for a skirmish with another servant or master in the Fate series things often end up in a forest setting somehow.  It's like the wide open space with weather worn rock formations ala DBZ of this franchise I guess, a pretty good place to fight without the chance of interruption.   Other than that Rin  shitting on ol' Tin Man a little more helped to re-endear me to her a bit at the end.  She can be pretty amusing if again I'm not seeing the building blocks of an all time great heroine just yet so much as a textbook tsundere one with a sharp tongue.  Anyway there's many ways in which that guy was pretty much an utter failure of a protagonist, but I've never really considered that one before in doing such a bad job of preparing his successor for the conflicts he was going to face down the road.  Then again I know about the magical Macguffin he has inside of him so that sort of makes up for it to some extent.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on February 23, 2015, 04:02:39 PM
6:  I'm not sure if I remember Archer being this forever brooding and waxing on the virtues of being cold hard and prepared for anything in the Fate route, but then again he got injured so early on it would have a) made him seem highly hypocritical and b) he pretty much never really got the chance.  One thing I've noticed is that the Fate franchise really loves beating this whole idea in that you have to be cold and ruthless and take every opportunity to back stab otherwise there's little hope for you in this conflict and while there's a fair amount of logic to such an approach (especially considering how the laws of this universe seem to work to spite anybody that doesn't do those things) I get the feeling Shiro has a shot at getting away with not doing such things and that this entry isn't going to take and further reinforce Archer's standpoint as much as Fate/Zero would have had he been in a character in that one.  Incidentally I find it funny that the Gar term is apparently associated with the Archer character because he doesn't strike me as fitting of what that fan term came to end up meaning....like at all.  If anything he's the exact polar opposite of what I would consider Gar and seems like the kind of guy that would sooner sit back from a distance and take pot shots than mix it up and put himself at risk for a belief like I commonly associate with such ideas of garness. 

Anyway I find it funny that Shiro is consistently this lambasted character for having actual values and beliefs that coincide more with the virtuous side of the moral spectrum.  It's not just a matter of chauvinism with him, he feels that Saber isn't just some servant to be used as a tool like Archer does but something more like a person who deserves the right to make her own decisions going forward.  He deliberately seems to set himself up to take the harder path in all of this compared to the other characters and I really don't see any problem with that even if it might be a little naive.  Fate/Zero really could have used a character like this more in direct contact with the A plotline to balance out all the constant brooding, back stabbing and what felt like stopping just sort of outright condemning and demonstrating such outlooks as Shiro's as the kind that could never ever possibly lead to anything other than an ironically bad end.  On the other hand I feel like if he had been in Fate/Zero things would not have been going as well for him even up to this point considering the logic that story seemed to operate on with how far it's characters could go based on their belief system so it's better for his sake he didn't take part in that war lol.  Needless to say his character continues to be light years ahead of Kiritsugu's in terms of how he's flawed, but in ways that are relatable and make him come across as human rather than Tin Man and while the series so far feels like it highlights the potential downsides in his outlook, it's also demonstrating the possible upsides which make other characters consider what he has to say on matters and maybe even be affected by it.

Anyway it's nice to see the bonding Saber has going on with Shiro in all of this and how characters are sort of coming around to giving him a little bit more respect despite his lack of training and understanding of the conflict.  He's not an idiot, and perhaps that he hasn't been trained and hardened and had the soul beaten out of him for this like a lot of the other participants means he can really affect some change here for this particular war.  The way their relationship is coming along reminds me a bit of the Waver/Rider one from Fate/Zero which I felt worked by far the best of any of the duos in that series.  I remember saying I wish they could have been the protagonists of that one and gotten more of the focus so good sign here.

One other thing I noticed though and maybe this can allow me to put at least one point in Tin Mans favor going forward is that the Magus families seem like quite the factory for turning out egotistical sociopaths to fight in these conflicts.  Rin seems to have turned out a little differently having her family kind of thrown into turmoil early on in her training, but perhaps Kiritsugu not putting Shiro through the usual training is a big reason as to why he's turned out so different then your average brooding ice man master that either seems on the verge of breaking out into villainous laughter or like the thought of demonstrating a regular human emotion or state of being would never once cross their minds.  If Shiro is actually able to break the cycle than that might go a long way towards such an outcome as he is just so clearly not cut from the same cloth as these other sociopaths at all lol.



Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on March 09, 2015, 08:07:49 PM
7:  I find it funny that the Archer class is somehow associated with the whole "Gar" thing because he manages to embody none of the traits of what I see as "Gar" so far.  First he's constantly brooding and being pretty much a dick.  Second he could potentially have finished off a tricky enemy in Caster but doesn't for no particularly reason valid reason other than seemingly to be a dick to Shiro, third he attacks Shiro and legitimately tries to kill him out of butthurt, considers sacrificing an entire city full of people a good idea for some reason and seems to be consistently acting against Rin's wishes while alone since he doesn't have to worry about those command seals.  So far his best trait seems to have been that he seems to have earned enough of a grudging respect for Rin to the point that when she's around he'll fall in line....at least for now. 

I don't know but this guy really doesn't seem like someone that can be particularly controlled and I don't see how him being around helps with either of Shiro or Rin's goals.  He's probably been my least favorite character of the core group of "heroes" so far for being just so one dimensional but some spoilers I know about at least open his character up to some potential growth.  Assassin at least seems like a pretty interesting and worthy foe with a touch of honor to his style for Saber.  I can already kind of see the gears turning and setting him up to be this series Iskandar.  Setting him up for some ironically pathetic fate where he's killed unceremoniously for trying to have some sort of personal code or simply proud way of life....probably by one of the Archers while they wax about the folly of his failings hampering his strength.  It'd be interesting if the story takes a different tack here though. 

I definitely still don't get how some of these power level and ability things work besides the command seals and noble phantasm thing and so far it's managed to make everyone but Saber look pretty weak, but then again she's clearly nowhere near at her full potential being tethered down by a less magically inclined Master and not having some Key Items.  In any case so far Berserker is pretty much invincible, Caster can apparently summon her own servant, Assassin's natural sword skill is apparently so honed it can act as it's own low cost Noble Phantasm and Archer seems like a pretty good fighter who opts for the Kiritsugu method of overcompensating with collateral damage and generally pointlessly underhanded and douchy tactics that seem chosen for their level of douchyness rather than overall practicality.  It's like they really REALLY want you to not like the guy and do everything in their power especially this week.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on March 18, 2015, 09:21:22 AM
While what you say is true, isn't this the same price for almost all blu rays?

Not really. I can complete a series on bluray for around $30-$80. I think that this set might be an import, and imports usually are that expensive.

Nonetheless, it is absurd to sell a series like that for such a price in the United States. It's a general disservice to the fans. You would have to pay two part-time paychecks for half of the show's run.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on March 18, 2015, 11:32:58 AM
While what you say is true, isn't this the same price for almost all blu rays?

Not really. I can complete a series on bluray for around $30-$80. I think that this set might be an import, and imports usually are that expensive.

Nonetheless, it is absurd to sell a series like that for such a price in the United States. It's a general disservice to the fans. You would have to pay two part-time paychecks for half of the show's run.

It's pretty standard Aniplex pricing (Bandai Visual has really bad import pricing too on things they carry themselves like Unicorn and Origin) which they will assume people will pay cause Fate has such a rabid loyal fanbase and it's considered a super duper ultra premium product or at least is being billed as such.  Anyway if there's anything I've learned of late it's that profit>fandom.  These big producers and publishers, they don't really give a **** about the fans besides maybe Funimation.  They'll say they do and advertise as such and put things in packages and shows they think fans want but at the end of the day it's really all just calculated marketing to serve their own ends as opposed to true fan service.  There's something very very greed oriented about the modern anime industry that can be a pretty regular turn off for me.  It's like they've finished catching up to us in the West or something with their entertainment mediums over in Japan.

Anyway you'll find plenty of people that defend this model on sites like ANN but in any case I'm so glad that Fate/Stay Night isn't the be all end all to me and just another show I plan on watching on Crunchyroll.  The only price gouging I'll likely see is Gundam The Origin if I do end up buying the BD which is still a pretty big if.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on March 19, 2015, 11:20:48 AM
While what you say is true, isn't this the same price for almost all blu rays?

Not really. I can complete a series on bluray for around $30-$80. I think that this set might be an import, and imports usually are that expensive.

Nonetheless, it is absurd to sell a series like that for such a price in the United States. It's a general disservice to the fans. You would have to pay two part-time paychecks for half of the show's run.

It's pretty standard Aniplex pricing (Bandai Visual has really bad import pricing too on things they carry themselves like Unicorn and Origin) which they will assume people will pay cause Fate has such a rabid loyal fanbase and it's considered a super duper ultra premium product or at least is being billed as such.  Anyway if there's anything I've learned of late it's that profit>fandom.  These big producers and publishers, they don't really give a **** about the fans besides maybe Funimation.  They'll say they do and advertise as such and put things in packages and shows they think fans want but at the end of the day it's really all just calculated marketing to serve their own ends as opposed to true fan service.  There's something very very greed oriented about the modern anime industry that can be a pretty regular turn off for me.  It's like they've finished catching up to us in the West or something with their entertainment mediums over in Japan.

Anyway you'll find plenty of people that defend this model on sites like ANN but in any case I'm so glad that Fate/Stay Night isn't the be all end all to me and just another show I plan on watching on Crunchyroll.  The only price gouging I'll likely see is Gundam The Origin if I do end up buying the BD which is still a pretty big if.

Chances are, they'll come out with a non-limited edition DVD release that'll be worth $60-90 per season. It'll still be expensive as hell, but more or less affordable. Hope they do that for your Gundam: The Origin, too. I wouldn't pay $99 for one episode of a 4-episode OAV, unless I were saving up and I really liked the show. Again, though. These are imports. It's not so much on Aniplex and Pony Canyon and Sunrise that these things are expensive as much as it is their adherence to tradition.

You've got plenty of decent companies in the US putting out DVD releases. Your Sidonia's going for $36 on DVD, $41 on Bluray, and $60 for a limited edition DVD/Bluray set. This set gives as much as any 4-episode Aniplex set ever did, and it's not even Funimation related. If anything, I'd be surprised if you didn't dip into that.

Anyways, Fate/Stay Night was a good show, but I wouldn't invest $400 into it. The only shows I'll be putting more than $200 into will be Hunter x Hunter and Kill la Kill.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on March 21, 2015, 04:08:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X8ZBVgairo

PV for the second season. UBW looking pretty good.

And I just tried to look at MAL on this... What the f**k was I thinking?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on March 21, 2015, 04:23:59 PM
Promotional poster looks good as well.

http://i.imgur.com/OWD6WqC.jpg

I also kinda dig the new opening. Definitely way better than ideal white.

And I just tried to look at MAL on this... What the f**k was I thinking?

It's like looking at a ghastly car crash. You know it's horrible to look at, but you can't help yourself in being curious enough to take a look at it.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on March 21, 2015, 07:06:15 PM
It's like looking at a ghastly car crash. You know it's horrible to look at, but you can't help yourself in being curious enough to take a look at it.

I blame Aniplex.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on March 23, 2015, 07:42:56 PM
While what you say is true, isn't this the same price for almost all blu rays?

Not really. I can complete a series on bluray for around $30-$80. I think that this set might be an import, and imports usually are that expensive.

Nonetheless, it is absurd to sell a series like that for such a price in the United States. It's a general disservice to the fans. You would have to pay two part-time paychecks for half of the show's run.

It's pretty standard Aniplex pricing (Bandai Visual has really bad import pricing too on things they carry themselves like Unicorn and Origin) which they will assume people will pay cause Fate has such a rabid loyal fanbase and it's considered a super duper ultra premium product or at least is being billed as such.  Anyway if there's anything I've learned of late it's that profit>fandom.  These big producers and publishers, they don't really give a **** about the fans besides maybe Funimation.  They'll say they do and advertise as such and put things in packages and shows they think fans want but at the end of the day it's really all just calculated marketing to serve their own ends as opposed to true fan service.  There's something very very greed oriented about the modern anime industry that can be a pretty regular turn off for me.  It's like they've finished catching up to us in the West or something with their entertainment mediums over in Japan.

Anyway you'll find plenty of people that defend this model on sites like ANN but in any case I'm so glad that Fate/Stay Night isn't the be all end all to me and just another show I plan on watching on Crunchyroll.  The only price gouging I'll likely see is Gundam The Origin if I do end up buying the BD which is still a pretty big if.

Chances are, they'll come out with a non-limited edition DVD release that'll be worth $60-90 per season. It'll still be expensive as hell, but more or less affordable. Hope they do that for your Gundam: The Origin, too. I wouldn't pay $99 for one episode of a 4-episode OAV, unless I were saving up and I really liked the show. Again, though. These are imports. It's not so much on Aniplex and Pony Canyon and Sunrise that these things are expensive as much as it is their adherence to tradition.

You've got plenty of decent companies in the US putting out DVD releases. Your Sidonia's going for $36 on DVD, $41 on Bluray, and $60 for a limited edition DVD/Bluray set. This set gives as much as any 4-episode Aniplex set ever did, and it's not even Funimation related. If anything, I'd be surprised if you didn't dip into that.

Anyways, Fate/Stay Night was a good show, but I wouldn't invest $400 into it. The only shows I'll be putting more than $200 into will be Hunter x Hunter and Kill la Kill.

Well I have a Netflix account so it's like I own Sidonia already in a way.

And I just tried to look at MAL on this... What the f**k was I thinking?

It's like looking at a ghastly car crash. You know it's horrible to look at, but you can't help yourself in being curious enough to take a look at it.
[/quote]

Any time I've checked that out I can honestly say I have no earthly idea what the **** people are even talking about and trying to make the subject.  It's just like absolute chaos of bizarre role playing in what I can only describe as smug self-satisfaction.  Like whooooo we're makin' noise about Fate!!!! IT'S GETTIN' HYPE LET'S PARTY WOOOOOO!!!!!

It kind of makes me feel like maybe I'm in a good position being just casually interested in this franchise.  Like it's not the be all end all for me what they choose to do with it as an anime or not and I can just take my time with it sit back and watch it and come up with my own conclusions and it just have to be such a tremendously big deal of unending drama and serious business like it is on MAL where the beholdence to that which they call hype really gets way too out of control with these big VN adaptations things.  Not having to feel like I need to worry about some ridiculous price tag is nice too since I'm just plain not a hardcore fan of it enough to want to buy it in the first place let alone at ridiculous prices.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on March 23, 2015, 07:45:21 PM
Well I have a Netflix account so it's like I own Sidonia already in a way.

Fair enough. If you couldn't have guessed, I'm really into DVD collecting.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on March 23, 2015, 07:47:52 PM
Well I have a Netflix account so it's like I own Sidonia already in a way.

Fair enough. If you couldn't have guessed, I'm really into DVD collecting.

My collection is pretty limited to legacy releases of 80's mecha stuff I had no other way of obtaining back in the early 2000's.  Stuff most people probably haven't even heard of like SPT Layzner, Metal Armor Dragonar (regret buying it), Giant Robo, Zeta Gundam, Aura Battler Dunbine and Super Bestial Machine God Dancougar.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on March 23, 2015, 07:52:06 PM
Well I have a Netflix account so it's like I own Sidonia already in a way.

Fair enough. If you couldn't have guessed, I'm really into DVD collecting.

My collection is pretty limited to legacy releases of 80's mecha stuff I had no other way of obtaining back in the early 2000's.  Stuff most people probably haven't even heard of like SPT Layzner, Metal Armor Dragonar (regret buying it), Giant Robo, Zeta Gundam, Aura Battler Dunbine and Super Bestial Machine God Dancougar.

I generally get movies and anime I like. That limiter doesn't actually require much spending.

I will be picking up Sidonia, though.

Still, aren't Gundam releases, like, really expensive, now that Bandai's out of business?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on March 23, 2015, 07:56:42 PM
Well I have a Netflix account so it's like I own Sidonia already in a way.

Fair enough. If you couldn't have guessed, I'm really into DVD collecting.

My collection is pretty limited to legacy releases of 80's mecha stuff I had no other way of obtaining back in the early 2000's.  Stuff most people probably haven't even heard of like SPT Layzner, Metal Armor Dragonar (regret buying it), Giant Robo, Zeta Gundam, Aura Battler Dunbine and Super Bestial Machine God Dancougar.

I generally get movies and anime I like. That limiter doesn't actually require much spending.

I will be picking up Sidonia, though.

Still, aren't Gundam things, like, really expensive, now that Bandai's out of business?

They're still in the business, they just don't have an American affiliated so now it's a little worse because they're carrying it themselves as Bandai Visual for international releases so indeed you do get those Japanese market prices internationally.  I remember Gundam Unicorn being a pretty big point of contention because a single volume could cost you upwards of $100 for an hour long episode. 

One thing I find interesting about the Fate/Stay Night Box set is that apparently Aniplex totally mislead people about the added run time or at least used vague wording and really it's just the OST that's included in the set and some other extras being added to the runtime as opposed to actual new episodic footage.  I can't say I'm terrible surprised as it just seemed so unlikely that there was that much extra footage being held back.  Needless to say some people are expressing their mad but I think they'll forget in the long run as is often the case.  I mean look how many times Bandai has gotten away with pulling similar bait and switch DLC schemes with their games division and people swearing revenge only to make a best seller.  A person whose opinion I tend to respect from MAHQ Chris Guanche who has become noted for his very straight up looks on things calls it the bitch and buy phenomenon where his theory is that people love to bitch about high prices and this or that slight from publishers but then they always seem to turn around and buy the product anyway thus proving that at the end of the day they just like making noise on the internet and have little conviction when it comes to calls for boycotts and petitions.  Capcom has played the bitch and buy phenomenon masterfully as has Bandai Namco Games in Japan, so the fact that Aniplex is stepping it up even more still on that front is little surprise.  Devoted fans will do crazy things with their money after all like the one fan who bought 50 copies of a Love Live disc at about the exchange rate of $1,600 USD and then posted the receipt on the internet. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on March 23, 2015, 08:01:23 PM
They're still in the business, they just don't have an American affiliated so now it's a little worse because they're carrying it themselves as Bandai Visual for international releases so indeed you do get those Japanese market prices internationally.  I remember Gundam Unicorn being a pretty big point of contention because a single volume could cost you upwards of $100 for an hour long episode.

Well, yeah, that's what I was referring to.

As for Unicorn... It's certainly expensive to get the individual blurays, but couldn't you just buy the DVD versions instead, for under $65 total? Or is the production quality in Unicorn just that good?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on March 23, 2015, 08:10:32 PM
They're still in the business, they just don't have an American affiliated so now it's a little worse because they're carrying it themselves as Bandai Visual for international releases so indeed you do get those Japanese market prices internationally.  I remember Gundam Unicorn being a pretty big point of contention because a single volume could cost you upwards of $100 for an hour long episode.

Well, yeah, that's what I was referring to.

As for Unicorn... It's certainly expensive to get the individual blurays, but couldn't you just buy the DVD versions instead, for under $65 total? Or is the production quality in Unicorn just that good?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2l1a6THyZc

Lol you tell me.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on March 23, 2015, 08:18:39 PM
They're still in the business, they just don't have an American affiliated so now it's a little worse because they're carrying it themselves as Bandai Visual for international releases so indeed you do get those Japanese market prices internationally.  I remember Gundam Unicorn being a pretty big point of contention because a single volume could cost you upwards of $100 for an hour long episode.

Well, yeah, that's what I was referring to.

As for Unicorn... It's certainly expensive to get the individual blurays, but couldn't you just buy the DVD versions instead, for under $65 total? Or is the production quality in Unicorn just that good?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2l1a6THyZc

Lol you tell me.

As good as it looks, it's still $60 versus many hundred.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on March 23, 2015, 08:23:01 PM
They're still in the business, they just don't have an American affiliated so now it's a little worse because they're carrying it themselves as Bandai Visual for international releases so indeed you do get those Japanese market prices internationally.  I remember Gundam Unicorn being a pretty big point of contention because a single volume could cost you upwards of $100 for an hour long episode.

Well, yeah, that's what I was referring to.

As for Unicorn... It's certainly expensive to get the individual blurays, but couldn't you just buy the DVD versions instead, for under $65 total? Or is the production quality in Unicorn just that good?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2l1a6THyZc

Lol you tell me.

As good as it looks, it's still $60 versus many hundred.

Yeah that is the dilemma.  It really depends on whether you want the full 1080P that it's shot in or just the standard definition.  The sound quality of the show is also really good and I'm not sure how that would come through on DVD  and non-HD audio.  I'm still waiting to see if we get a boxset.  If we do and it's a reasonable price than it'll be my first purchase in years.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on March 23, 2015, 08:27:22 PM
Yeah that is the dilemma.  It really depends on whether you want the full 1080P that it's shot in or just the standard definition.  The sound quality of the show is also really good and I'm not sure how that would come through on DVD  and non-HD audio.  I'm still waiting to see if we get a boxset.  If we do and it's a reasonable price than it'll be my first purchase in years.

I'd honestly just be thankful that you've been given the ability to choose between $60 for the entire set and $600 for the entire set.

It's better than being told: "Yo, Fate/Stay Night fans, we're giving this series to you for the steep price of $400 dollars! But wait, that's just the first half!"
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on March 24, 2015, 03:59:19 PM
Yeah that is the dilemma.  It really depends on whether you want the full 1080P that it's shot in or just the standard definition.  The sound quality of the show is also really good and I'm not sure how that would come through on DVD  and non-HD audio.  I'm still waiting to see if we get a boxset.  If we do and it's a reasonable price than it'll be my first purchase in years.

I'd honestly just be thankful that you've been given the ability to choose between $60 for the entire set and $600 for the entire set.

It's better than being told: "Yo, Fate/Stay Night fans, we're giving this series to you for the steep price of $400 dollars! But wait, that's just the first half!"

Lol you should see how much some Gunpla costs if you think that's a rough deal.  Some of these Perfect Grade kits (http://www.gundamstoreandmore.com/pergradgunmo.html) are more expensive than the Fate Stay Night First Half Boxset with the discount.  It's part of the whole collectors market and hardcore fandom thing again.  Imagine paying that much for plastic even if it's extreme detail caliber.  This one is 542.99 converted to USD. (http://www.amazon.co.jp/RX-78-2-%E3%82%AC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%80%E3%83%A0-30%E5%91%A8%E5%B9%B4%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%E3%83%A2%E3%83%87%E3%83%AB-%E3%82%A8%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%83%8B%E3%83%83%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A5%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3-%E6%A9%9F%E5%8B%95%E6%88%A6%E5%A3%AB%E3%82%AC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%80%E3%83%A0/dp/B0037V09AA/ref=sr_1_16?s=hobby&ie=UTF8&qid=1427237841&sr=1-16&keywords=perfect+grade)
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on March 24, 2015, 04:34:58 PM
Lol you should see how much some Gunpla costs if you think that's a rough deal.  Some of these Perfect Grade kits (http://www.gundamstoreandmore.com/pergradgunmo.html) are more expensive than the Fate Stay Night First Half Boxset with the discount.  It's part of the whole collectors market and hardcore fandom thing again.  Imagine paying that much for plastic even if it's extreme detail caliber.  This one is 542.99 converted to USD. (http://www.amazon.co.jp/RX-78-2-%E3%82%AC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%80%E3%83%A0-30%E5%91%A8%E5%B9%B4%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%E3%83%A2%E3%83%87%E3%83%AB-%E3%82%A8%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%83%8B%E3%83%83%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A5%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3-%E6%A9%9F%E5%8B%95%E6%88%A6%E5%A3%AB%E3%82%AC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%80%E3%83%A0/dp/B0037V09AA/ref=sr_1_16?s=hobby&ie=UTF8&qid=1427237841&sr=1-16&keywords=perfect+grade)

Sure, but figure collecting is always expensive. Or am I mistaken? Every time I've been to a convention, figures and gundams have been on sale for $200-500. That's just how it goes. Isn't that something you have to steel yourself to when you prepare to collect those things?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on March 24, 2015, 08:14:50 PM
Lol you should see how much some Gunpla costs if you think that's a rough deal.  Some of these Perfect Grade kits (http://www.gundamstoreandmore.com/pergradgunmo.html) are more expensive than the Fate Stay Night First Half Boxset with the discount.  It's part of the whole collectors market and hardcore fandom thing again.  Imagine paying that much for plastic even if it's extreme detail caliber.  This one is 542.99 converted to USD. (http://www.amazon.co.jp/RX-78-2-%E3%82%AC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%80%E3%83%A0-30%E5%91%A8%E5%B9%B4%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%E3%83%A2%E3%83%87%E3%83%AB-%E3%82%A8%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%83%8B%E3%83%83%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A5%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3-%E6%A9%9F%E5%8B%95%E6%88%A6%E5%A3%AB%E3%82%AC%E3%83%B3%E3%83%80%E3%83%A0/dp/B0037V09AA/ref=sr_1_16?s=hobby&ie=UTF8&qid=1427237841&sr=1-16&keywords=perfect+grade)

Sure, but figure collecting is always expensive. Or am I mistaken? Every time I've been to a convention, figures and gundams have been on sale for $200-500. That's just how it goes. Isn't that something you have to steel yourself to when you prepare to collect those things?

Depends on the quality and scale.  The really big high detailed ones are, but the smaller ones aren't as much.  A smaller figurine would be like $10-20 bucks, which is about the same for a high grade 1/144 scale model kit.  A mid sized one or Master Grade 1/100 scale is like $50-80.  The top quality ones where you start getting into the extreme detail 1/5 scale for figurines and 1/60 for Gunpla is where you run into the $150-500 stuff.  Level of detail and complexity of the mold can play as big a role as scale in pricing though as can rarity of the figure if it's a limited edition.  Only the truly limited edition of customized one of a kind ones that end up on auction ever really go for above $250 though.

Anyway that's enough unrelated anime Merch chat in the thread.  I'm all ears if you have any more questions about this stuff if you want to shoot me a PM.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on April 04, 2015, 11:29:58 AM
13:

My weekly drug dose is back. This half of the show is when all the good stuff really starts happening.


----

BTW this is some interview with Nasu that sheds some perspective on this adaption of UBW. The perspective of creators is always very interesting to me, though of course Shirobako has highlighted this quite a bit.

http://i.imgur.com/XgbH0Yd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5FQ6yr6.jpg
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on April 04, 2015, 03:15:14 PM
13:
What's this?! A guy actually confesses to the girl?! What kind of parallel universe is this?!

It seems we're going to get an expanded back story on Caster next episode which sounds interesting.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on April 04, 2015, 03:54:01 PM
13

I'm actually not all that fond of the new OP and ED.

As for the episode itself, it's more UBW with its slow, methodical pacing.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on April 04, 2015, 04:20:56 PM
13:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA9tZXR9mWA

Yes, well, congrats Caster. You finally made Saber wear a wedding dress.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 04, 2015, 08:11:50 PM
13:
What's this?! A guy actually confesses to the girl?! What kind of parallel universe is this?!

Next up:  Jackhammering time!
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on April 04, 2015, 08:34:42 PM
13:

Fair episode and all, but everything to do with Saber this episode was such blatant and crude fanservice, the only way I can forgive it is if Caster and her master were literally doing her from behind offscreen. Otherwise, those clothes and that pose make absolutely no sense whatsoever. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on April 04, 2015, 08:39:35 PM
Not that I would argue there isn't a fanservice angle here, but it's part of Caster's sick mind trying to break her not just physically, but mentally as well. Saber doesn't view herself as a woman and Caster is trying to break her pride (The only thing letting her resist the command seal).
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 04, 2015, 08:43:06 PM
Sometimes I wonder how many people remember that this is based on an adult (read: porn) visual novel.  However, Reckoner does bring up a valid pseudo explanation that doesn't involve dragons, jackhammers, and worms.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on April 05, 2015, 04:08:40 AM
The clothing and position are rather embarrassing, but nothing the average highschooler couldn't shake off. They pose no risk to Saber's pride. If you want to humiliate Saber enough to break her, then you have to take it way, way further. For starters, there should be no clothes. If the source material is explicit enough for this explanation to work, but ufotable can't show it, then Saber should just be clad in armor and standing normally. The silly compromise they went with doesn't logically reflect Caster's intent, and looks really stupid. It's basically an unnaturally prolonged version of "character leans forward and camera zooms in on their ass".
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on April 05, 2015, 07:12:03 AM
13:

Fair episode and all, but everything to do with Saber this episode was such blatant and crude fanservice, the only way I can forgive it is if Caster and her master were literally doing her from behind offscreen. Otherwise, those clothes and that pose make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Really, I've always thought Caster was bisexual and was legitimately trying to rape Saber but people kept coming to the room and interrupting her.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on April 05, 2015, 09:21:00 AM
The clothing and position are rather embarrassing, but nothing the average highschooler couldn't shake off. They pose no risk to Saber's pride. If you want to humiliate Saber enough to break her, then you have to take it way, way further. For starters, there should be no clothes. If the source material is explicit enough for this explanation to work, but ufotable can't show it, then Saber should just be clad in armor and standing normally. The silly compromise they went with doesn't logically reflect Caster's intent, and looks really stupid. It's basically an unnaturally prolonged version of "character leans forward and camera zooms in on their ass".

Actually the visual novel is exactly the same here. There is no nudity in this scene. And in any case, eroge roots or not, I think the official version of the source material has become the realta nua version which has no eroge.

But yeah I don't know. Nasu and Miura don't want to spell out things in the adaption. That's how Nasu used to do things, but as he said in the interview, there's no point in doing things that the art and animation can convey extremely well. We don't need to be told that Saber is being humiliated by Caster here. It's what more directors need to do with source adaptions these days, particularly light novels.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on April 05, 2015, 11:45:28 AM
Grrr. Saber's NOT being humiliated. She's being mildly embarrassed.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on April 05, 2015, 12:33:19 PM
The way this franchise seems to love building up only to begin demeaning its more traditionally heroic (in a sense) characters is kind of a turn off for me personally.  I'm thinking this is probably where I consider getting off this crazy ride as that sort of thing is when Zero started going downhill to me big time.   Well then and about the time Super Saiyan David Bowie returned to his role as Captain upset, which is what I've been dreading the most here as his screen time in virtually any adaptation tends to coincide with me rolling my eyes.  Its funny because I've oft been told that Fates antagonists are among its greatest strengths but to me its one of the things that always holds the narrative back while the struggles, trials and interactions of the main cast are the parts I've enjoyed.  Very very hit or miss franchise with its cast members on an individual basis.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on April 05, 2015, 12:37:47 PM
Actually if you notice, Saber's face is suddenly flushed and she's panting. Also her dress is scrunched up so Caster can have access to you know where.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 05, 2015, 08:33:46 PM
I'm not a fan of Gilgamesh either, and his role in the various Fate stories seems to be more of a bully than anything else.  At least he did something in Fate Zero, most notably get upstaged by Berserker, which pissed him off, and tempting Kirei to the darkside.  Otherwise, he doesn't do squat but be a jackass.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on April 11, 2015, 02:09:37 PM
14:
Well now things have gotten quite complicated.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on April 11, 2015, 03:00:15 PM
14:

Did Gilgamesh just make another reference to enkidu?

I hate this cliffhanger sooooooooooooooooooooo much.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on April 11, 2015, 05:04:52 PM
14:

I suppose that bit of background with Medea was quite a nice touch since that wasn't even in the VN. Next episode, Dr. Gil will perform some surgery, then time to watch Prisma Ilya again  :'(
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on April 11, 2015, 06:55:18 PM
14

As a LN reader, I was confused by the beginning of the episode, but I liked the expanded backstory of Medea.  Also, the poor maids didn't know what hit them.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on April 12, 2015, 03:58:47 PM
Episode 14

Really good episode explaining some of Caster's background.  Not only that, that cliffhanger was great and the next fight should be pretty epic.  I wonder if this one will match the one from F/Z between Gilgamesh and Iskander?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 12, 2015, 07:31:37 PM
14:

Huh.  Is that the first time we've ever seen Caster's first master put in any kind of physical form?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on April 12, 2015, 07:37:03 PM
14:

Huh.  Is that the first time we've ever seen Caster's first master put in any kind of physical form?
Yeah, all I recall of the VN is a short sob story about how Caster's master sexually abused her until she rule breaker-ed him and the hooked up with her husbando Kuzuki.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 14, 2015, 12:10:52 AM
So, retcon then?  Or was Caster just an unreliable narrator?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on April 14, 2015, 12:39:15 AM
Er... I don't quite remember the VN ever saying her master was sexually abusive to her. It pretty much just stated how her master grew jealous and distrustful of her since he was an inferior magus, and that he was pretty much just cruel. Eventually she betrayed him and that's it.

This isn't the first time this adaption has expanded on certain details of the VN. This has happened several times already. It was pretty neat to see anyways, though apparently 7 minutes were cut this episode.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: JC on April 14, 2015, 01:02:32 AM
Hey if the next fight scene is good, I can forgive all this drab :D
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 14, 2015, 10:19:41 AM
Sorry to burst your expectations but the words Gilgamesh and good fight scene are not meant to ever coincide.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on April 18, 2015, 01:21:28 PM
Episode 15

Pretty good episode centered around Illyasviel which made me wish they had expanded a little more on her relationship with Berserker.  Not to mention, they did a pretty good job of making Berserker look badass in the end.  Granted, Heracles' demise may not be as memorable as Iskander's.  But, Iskander's was always going to be hard to top, if not impossible.

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on April 18, 2015, 01:57:31 PM
Just a general comment but this is the part where the narrative of Fate and it's internal logic just comes crashing down completely for me.  I just simply cannot wrap my head around the idea that they would go to all this trouble to design this universe of matchups and weird abilities that play off of one another and then just introduce a character into a "war" that is just made to be so overpowered just because that if he felt like it he could just instantly win the war pretty much effortlessly over any of the far more interesting characters and their abilities.  Its just so stupid to me and a real shame cause its like the creators are trying to create BlazBlue and almost have it but then for no reason just throw in an SNK Boss and completely disrupt the equilibrium.  All that talk about stats and matchups and trying to avoid this matchup or fight this battle under x circumstance or condition now rendered utterly meaningless because of some retarded flamboyant laughing boy.  And yeah you might beat him in the end but really its only because whoops, he was to arrogant to consider you a threat and didn't use his mystical I win Macguffin he has on top of all the other bullshit.

I really just don't get it in the context of a setup like this universe starts with.   Its just so stupid and really takes away from it all to a pretty much crippling degree.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on April 18, 2015, 02:08:45 PM
15:
That was honestly much better than I expected it to be.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on April 18, 2015, 02:55:07 PM
15

Well, that was strong adaptation for this part of the VN.  Much like Caster, they seem to have expanded the exposition a bit but they were welcome additions that were likely mentioned in the some of the other arcs.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on April 18, 2015, 03:32:13 PM
15:

Fantastic episode. It'll always be a mystery what Berserker could have done if he was not handicapped by having to protect Illya. He probably would have still lost, but he still surpassed the impossible in the end by breaking Enkidu.

Gilgamesh is just an entertaining personality. He is evil, but his charisma and arrogance is just a source of great amusement. Although he may be overpowered, his flair and overwhelming power are never boring spectacles to watch.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on April 18, 2015, 03:59:18 PM
Edited to reduce personal discomfort.

Why design all these matchups and detailed abilities, then introduce a character that is so overpowered he could win the war by himself? The former is made meaningless by the latter. Gilgamesh's arrogance is the only reason there's a plot at all.

Obviously if Gilgamesh went all-out it would break the story, but so long as he IS crippled by arrogance, what's the problem? All the fights that don't involve him are perfectly fine, and that's the majority of them. The ones with him in it still have an element of doubt, because he might straight-up die before using his stuff.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on April 18, 2015, 06:50:30 PM
Edited to reduce personal discomfort.

Why design all these matchups and detailed abilities, then introduce a character that is so overpowered he could win the war by himself? The former is made meaningless by the latter. Gilgamesh's arrogance is the only reason there's a plot at all.

Obviously if Gilgamesh went all-out it would break the story, but so long as he IS crippled by arrogance, what's the problem? All the fights that don't involve him are perfectly fine, and that's the majority of them. The ones with him in it still have an element of doubt, because he might straight-up die before using his stuff.

There are elements of Greek tragedy to it for me but something about being unable to beat an opponent when they are fighting at their best feels cheap to me somehow as does someone that never had to earn their power through any sort of trial or struggle being "the best".  Like he has this arrogant comical sneering demeanor yet everything that gives him power is just kind of handed to him and the result of his treasury pretty much.  Its just...cheap.  Like I'll gladly take Araya Souren and his trickery to get around a lot of obstacles over that or a final boss that is all the things that Gilgamesh is but had to earn it and thus their stature and arrogance is understandable as opposed to cheesy.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on April 18, 2015, 08:47:38 PM
15:

How the **** is the Gate of Babylon even that fast to skewer something like Berserker that close ranged? Makes me wonder how Shirou vs Gilgamesh is gonna go down this time. Also, i was expecting some Dr. Gil heart surgery right there, but i guess it's in for the next episode. Besides, i have suffered enough watching Ilya be treated that way this episode anyway. Time to rewatch Prisma Ilya i guess.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 19, 2015, 12:41:20 AM
Well, KS, I'll agree with you.  I rather detest Gilgamesh in Fate Stay Night.  He basically serves as a plot device that works in various ways depending on what the hell the arc is trying to accomplish.  For the most part, he just serves to be Such A Bad Guy, but does so in such a way that seems utterly unbeatable until the plot demands it.  It is a cheap way of building up a fight drama, because in any of the arcs when Gil does fall, he always falls too ****ing easy.  You never buy it.  After being such a goddamned badass for so long, he always goes down like a chump.

And I absolutely disagree with Reckoner's assessment of Gil.  If he's not being smug and trolling, he's worthless as a character.  He does NOTHING but those things.  He has no depth, not bit of interesting personality beyond being a jackass.  I get it, he's the King of Heroes.  He's also boring as ****.

And so, when I said in my last post that the words "Gilgamesh" and "good fight" don't belong, here is exhibit A.  It was a curb stomp against a foe that, himself, was supposed to be invincible, or was touted up as such, until Gilgamesh comes along with the script behind him.

Don't worry, he'll go down like a chump.  He always does.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: JC on April 19, 2015, 01:22:20 AM
Sorry to burst your expectations but the words Gilgamesh and good fight scene are not meant to ever coincide.
Wow your words are wisdom. How did I ever forget it's Gilgamesh win-it-all. As a added bonus his golden holes of swords are ugly as always.
Speaking of comical villain, Shinji is a much worse case. At least I can utterly dislike the gold bitch; and maybe that's what the show wants. But Shinji the utter fool, he is so unreal I can't even bring myself to loathe him.

I do appreciate the effort on background story, but the big daddy protect little girl story is a little too predictable... And telling it right before they die, feels cheap. If this had been shown earlier in the season, it may have some emotional impact when they died.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on April 19, 2015, 02:01:12 AM
Ufotable really has no choice but show it in this episode either way. Had it been shown in the earlier season or this season's first episodes, other important content would have been cut since it's quite a lengthy back story(Some of it are anime-original, which i felt is pretty good). I personally thought that showing it this episode rather than in the first season is the right timing because it would felt more fresher since it would been quite a while before we see Ilya again since episode 3.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on April 19, 2015, 05:21:53 AM
Well, KS, I'll agree with you.  I rather detest Gilgamesh in Fate Stay Night.  He basically serves as a plot device that works in various ways depending on what the hell the arc is trying to accomplish.  For the most part, he just serves to be Such A Bad Guy, but does so in such a way that seems utterly unbeatable until the plot demands it.  It is a cheap way of building up a fight drama, because in any of the arcs when Gil does fall, he always falls too ****ing easy.  You never buy it.  After being such a goddamned badass for so long, he always goes down like a chump.

And I absolutely disagree with Reckoner's assessment of Gil.  If he's not being smug and trolling, he's worthless as a character.  He does NOTHING but those things.  He has no depth, not bit of interesting personality beyond being a jackass.  I get it, he's the King of Heroes.  He's also boring as ****.

And so, when I said in my last post that the words "Gilgamesh" and "good fight" don't belong, here is exhibit A.  It was a curb stomp against a foe that, himself, was supposed to be invincible, or was touted up as such, until Gilgamesh comes along with the script behind him.

Don't worry, he'll go down like a chump.  He always does.

Well there's other characters that sort of serve as final obstacles too in other series like this but something about how Gilgamesh is designed makes the victory feel hollow even when he does go down like a chump but ultimately one can say that it's less that the character truly triumphed through cunning, wit and perseverance so much as Gilgamesh lost because he failed to deem them enough of a threat to actually fight all full strength aside from Iskander.  You can either look at it as a win is a win or that the character of destiny really doesn't accomplish or prove anything at all other than that Gilgamesh really is a dumb character I guess. 

So I don't know everything about him is a tough sell as a final antagonist or part of a final antagonist duo.  I mean when you have Tokiomi in Zero basically saying they've already won the grail war upon realizing that he's summoned this guy and that they should consider their next steps already AND you have a servant whose lasted over from the last grail war in a supposedly weakened or improperly summoned state and he's still easily more powerful than a character that a few episodes ago was already touted to be invincible as you say it's like what is the point?  Maybe that is the whole idea though I don't know, to make the victories feel hollow or the whole grail system appear even more ****ed up and broken in spite of it all.  It doesn't help that he takes care of a lot of potentially dangerous enemies pretty effortlessly in a lot of routes without much thought or strategy of the kind that the series tends to spend lengthy sessions of exposition on having to be put into it.  Just stand perfectly motionless and have a bunch of swords fly out of portals and stab things while he acts like he's some strong awesome badass that can talk down to anyone.

It definitely always bothered me that the very inception, role and purpose of the character seems to directly conflict with just about everything else with how the conflict appears to be set up.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on April 19, 2015, 10:56:57 AM
Personally, I think you guys have seen too much of the Fate lore. I'm operating under the assumption that Ea is his trump card, and seeing how he can destroy the planet with it, there's no way he can lose if he chooses to pull that thing out. But he never does. As long as it's just portal spam plus Enkidu, he can probably 1v1 any other character, but I can easily see a group of heroic spirits and masters taking him out. For example, It looks to me like Caster's party is more than a match for him, minus Ea.   

Just looking at what he's done in UBW, he killed two mooks, and did what both Archer and Saber managed to do, just repeatedly, while Berserker's forced to defend his master. Even then, his supposed god chains get broken and he almost gets hit. Frankly, I'm not impressed. 

I'm guessing the visual novels and whatnot show more of his abilities, because I'm not seeing why Gilgamesh as presented in Fate Zero and UBW (the only sources I've personally experienced) is so destructive to the story. He could whip out Ea, but he won't, so it's no problem.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on April 19, 2015, 11:24:49 AM
Gilgamesh is supposedly considered unbeatable because he possesses the prototype to basically most noble phantasms within his treasury. In theory he potentially has a counter to any other heroic spirit's abilities (Or does he?). However, while hubris is his main weakness, it doesn't mean he's unbeatable otherwise. Fate route (Deen adaption) showed how he lost even with Ea pulled out because Saber had an even more OP defensive noble phantasm (Avalon). There's also the fact that not every fight will be one for which Gilgamesh is prepared for. Surprise attacks or tactics can work, especially if you have the right abilities. Other stuff will also come to light about his "abilities" later in this arc. In the type-moon universe, there are always trump cards that can take you unawares. In any case, I don't really share the sentiment in this thread that his character takes anything away in the story and I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on April 19, 2015, 12:22:58 PM
I think the problem with Gilgamesh is more that the writer clearly wanted to give him a "final boss" vibe a bit too much. This made other servants seem underwhelming and any strategies or mechanics of the universe seem kind of pointless to even understand when you have a basically unbeatable foe. The only reason he ever loses (and yes it is the only reason) is because he's cocky or too proud to use his full power (which is why he just didn't rip fate zero berserker a new one). The visual novel clearly states he could beat all the servants in one night if he really felt like it.

That being said I don't necessarily feel like he is a bad character. His attitude basically makes complete sense given his history and even his motives for his actions are pretty clear after awhile. I just think his main problem is he serves to undermine a lot of the cast. Plus I find his relationship with Kotomine very compelling in a lot of ways.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on April 19, 2015, 01:12:06 PM
I like to look at things like X-Men for comparison. There are beings in that universe so powerful that the rest of the "heroes" look like a joke. Doesn't make it any less fun or intriguing.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on April 19, 2015, 02:59:06 PM
Well I can agree with that. Like said I like Gilgamesh, I find him entertaining and his characterization is actually really well thought out
He's the only servant who cannot be corrupted for example. This has nothing to do with his powers, but rather his firm beliefs that cannot be swayed unlike the other heroes
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on April 19, 2015, 03:51:35 PM
I think the problem with Gilgamesh is more that the writer clearly wanted to give him a "final boss" vibe a bit too much. This made other servants seem underwhelming and any strategies or mechanics of the universe seem kind of pointless to even understand when you have a basically unbeatable foe. The only reason he ever loses (and yes it is the only reason) is because he's cocky or too proud to use his full power (which is why he just didn't rip fate zero berserker a new one). The visual novel clearly states he could beat all the servants in one night if he really felt like it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about; you guys talk about him like he's ultra godmode, infinite stats plus all abilities on 0s cooldown. I agree that such a character would be dumb and bad for the story, as you, TIF, and KS say.

But Gilgamesh, as presented thus far in Fate Zero and UBW, is not like that at all. He has a weapon with a billion attack points which he never uses, and is otherwise about 3-4x more powerful than the other servants and crippled by arrogance. That's perfectly reasonable.

Now, maybe he can read minds, travel through time, move at the speed of light, and is completely immune to all magic, etc. But he hasn't been shown to be capable of any of this, as far as I'm aware, within the adaptation we are watching. I remind all of you that until these things actually DO make an appearance, it's absurd to say that he's story-breakingly powerful because of what he's like in the LN or past anime.

If later in this adaptation, Gilgamesh does turn out to be redonkulous, then of course everything you guys are saying becomes true. But until then, it looks to me like you're prematurely coloring your experience with outside lore. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on April 19, 2015, 03:56:01 PM
Well I can agree with that. Like said I like Gilgamesh, I find him entertaining and his characterization is actually really well thought out
He's the only servant who cannot be corrupted for example. This has nothing to do with his powers, but rather his firm beliefs that cannot be swayed unlike the other heroes

Actually, he was kind of corrupted in a way. He was bathed by the Grail goo and though he survived and regained a body, his character got a bit more twisted or more evil. Remember that he can at least respect his opponents just as he did with Alexander and also Waver due to the latter's unwavering loyalty to his servant. I think F/Z Gilgamesh would admire the bond and loyalty of Hercules and Ilya but here on F/SN he mocks it.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on April 19, 2015, 04:36:39 PM
Well I can agree with that. Like said I like Gilgamesh, I find him entertaining and his characterization is actually really well thought out
He's the only servant who cannot be corrupted for example. This has nothing to do with his powers, but rather his firm beliefs that cannot be swayed unlike the other heroes

Actually, he was kind of corrupted in a way. He was bathed by the Grail goo and though he survived and regained a body, his character got a bit more twisted or more evil. Remember that he can at least respect his opponents just as he did with Alexander and also Waver due to the latter's unwavering loyalty to his servant. I think F/Z Gilgamesh would admire the bond and loyalty of Hercules and Ilya but here on F/SN he mocks it.

Never thought of that and it certainly is possible. I thought Rider was just an exception to the rule because of his total confidence in being a King much like Gilgy. Then again it's perhaps possible because he is a good bit more of an asshole in FSN then he was in Fate/Zero. Regardless his mind is the only one that wouldn't break completely to the corruption I believe.

Oh yeah can someone remind me how Kirei was able to provide enough mana to support him? I know in FSN he used a bunch of human beings, but Idk about Fate/Zero.


Quote
This is exactly what I'm talking about; you guys talk about him like he's ultra godmode, infinite stats plus all abilities on 0s cooldown. I agree that such a character would be dumb and bad for the story, as you, TIF, and KS say.

But Gilgamesh, as presented thus far in Fate Zero and UBW, is not like that at all. He has a weapon with a billion attack points which he never uses, and is otherwise about 3-4x more powerful than the other servants and crippled by arrogance. That's perfectly reasonable.

Now, maybe he can read minds, travel through time, move at the speed of light, and is completely immune to all magic, etc. But he hasn't been shown to be capable of any of this, as far as I'm aware, within the adaptation we are watching. I remind all of you that until these things actually DO make an appearance, it's absurd to say that he's story-breakingly powerful because of what he's like in the LN or past anime.

If later in this adaptation, Gilgamesh does turn out to be redonkulous, then of course everything you guys are saying becomes true. But until then, it looks to me like you're prematurely coloring your experience with outside lore.



Well there was one rule I was neglecting I believe. Even if you have a god mode servant, you can still get around it by killing their master. Might be tough of course, but all masters are only human. Not a spoiler of anything just something I realized just now. or they could even take them out by clever means like how Kiritsugu took out Lancer in Zero. So in regards to the Servant system, it's impossible for anyone to be invincible.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on April 19, 2015, 05:22:18 PM
Gilgamesh Ea is not invencible. Saber Avalon can block Ea power. The perfect attack versus the perfect defense. They cancel each other.


Full Saber with Avalon versus Gilgamesh, Saber wins if she fight smart.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on April 19, 2015, 09:05:46 PM
I don't think Saber has a defense against Gate of Babylon spamming is the main thing. Avalon makes her invincible while she uses it, but she can't do anything else either.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on April 20, 2015, 02:06:57 AM
Gilgamesh is powerful due to the noble phantasm, but Saber is physically faster and more stronger. Avalon turns her invulnerable to Gate Of Babylon, Excalibur finishes him off. His resistance is not that great.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on April 20, 2015, 05:27:47 AM
Well Avalon literally makes her incapable of doing anything. The only reason she was able to beat him was because he insisted on using Ea due to his pride, which left him open.

Like said a serious Gilgamesh is unbeatable. Nasu even confirmed this. The only way to beat him is to kill his master I believe.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on April 20, 2015, 10:11:39 AM
I would always take Nasu's words with a grain of salt when it comes to powerlevels in his universe. Shit always happens that shouldn't happen if we view it strictly from a power level perspective.

With regards to Saber, we've never seen anything in Gilgamesh's treasury used in the anime or VN that counters Excalibur besides Ea and Saber has avalon for that (If she's complete). Theoretically he might have something, but talking about it is one thing, showing it is another. Like Madrid said, as far as viewers in the anime are concerned, they wouldn't know and it's not like we know either.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: The Big Guy on April 21, 2015, 10:18:12 PM
Doesn't he use Gram in the DEEN adaptation? That was the first sword he uses in the VN against Saber before pulling out Ea, but I don't know if he uses it in the anime...

Honestly, Gilgamesh is more of a midboss than anything, setting up for Kotomine's return as the main villain (not really a spoiler) in Heaven's Feel. The Gilgamesh from Fate/Hollow, on the other hand....
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on April 25, 2015, 12:08:39 PM
Episode 16

That exchange between Lancer, Shirou, and Rin was kind of amusing.  Although, Shirou's line about how he didn't want to abandon anyone like he did before is something I wished was in Studio Deen's F/SN adaptation.  This sort of thing also applies to Kuzuki since we never got to know anything about him as well.  So, the fact that Kuzuki got a few line to explain his pov a bit is nice touch as well.  Some tidbits to give a little more perspective on the characters is never a bad thing to me  But, I am hyped to see Archer vs Lancer Round 2 since that should be a good one.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: JC on April 25, 2015, 06:51:07 PM
Fate all talk no show. I don't know why i keep expecting some kind of fightt scene. Urgg it makes me itchy to watch this episode...
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on April 25, 2015, 09:59:16 PM
This franchise nor this series is never about the fight scenes. If you think this series is all about that then you should have dropped this shit since the first cour. It's pretty annoying when i saw some people keep saying "where is muh fight scene?!" every damn episode as if the whole series revolved around that.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: JC on April 26, 2015, 02:10:16 AM
Well the intrigue-plot is very weak. The characters are rather unrelatable. The magic is complicated yet unimpressive. The art is at best mediocre. There wasn't much an attempt on humor. I kind of want to like this for old times sake. So I guess hoping for some action is my best shot isn't it? And you seriously want me to believe a story that pits magicians and their shikigami against each other in death match should not have decent action.. What shoul I watch for then? Romance?

 If it pleases you, I swear this will be my last negative comment here on this serie. No point keep beating at a dead horse. And of course, above rant about fate franchise is subjective opinion, so don't mind it. I do realize many people do enjoy this UBW, and I will respect that.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Kiniest on April 26, 2015, 08:58:29 AM
This franchise nor this series is never about the fight scenes. If you think this series is all about that then you should have dropped this shit since the first cour. It's pretty annoying when i saw some people keep saying "where is muh fight scene?!" every damn episode as if the whole series revolved around that.

I'm not seeing the necessity for hostility, here. Much of Fate/Stay Night (at least as far as I can tell) is structured around when the next fight scene is going to happen. There might be a fully developed universe, and well established characters here, that makes it easy for the show to take its time in between fights, but it's ultimately a build up to the next battle to happen.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on April 26, 2015, 09:21:08 AM
Well its more, if you expect the actual fighting part of the fights to be interesting, then yeah FSN doesn't impress. It's more about the battle of ideals. If you go into this show expecting awesome fights like HxH you'll be very disappointed.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on April 26, 2015, 10:09:16 AM
The fights are great fun when they do happen, but if this franchise was only about mythic heroes bashing each other on the head with swords and spears it would be nowhere near as enjoyable for sure.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Wadoud on April 27, 2015, 11:07:34 AM
16: I liked how Rin brought up the legend of Gilgamesh into her discussion with Shirou eventhough it was for a brief moment. I'm not sure how I feel about the show overall though, seems like a fight scene must always happen to move the plot forward, which I'm not sure if it's a good or a bad thing.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on May 02, 2015, 12:06:47 PM
Episode 17

I was expecting more out of Archer/Lancer R2.  I was probably expecting a little too much.  Rin's trick to blindside Caster and smashing her with her fists was something I didn't expect.  Since Rin never struck me as someone who could perform close quarters combat.  It was nice alongside Archer's reference to the Trojan Horse.  Still, the ending of the episode looks like it is setting up for something awesome.

Although, didn't Rho Aias block Gae Bolg a little more easier in the VN?  I thought that Archer was able to block it without too much trouble unlike in this episode.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on May 02, 2015, 12:08:54 PM
Actually, in the VN the result was even worse for Archer. It stated out his arm was barely hanging from him anymore.

I am getting the impression that they want to move ahead in the story to put in more original content. Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on May 02, 2015, 04:49:38 PM
Disappointing the Archer vs Lancer fight might be, it's still better than the DEEN one lol

There is also the annoying lack of dynamic during the fight on the basement and the whole fight there was wacksauce. In some few points, Kuzuki basically stands there doing nothing while Rin beats the crap out of Caster until the final one. He still has his enhancements with caster and has enough time to stop those attacks lol

The Archer vs Kuzuki fight......In the VN Archer stood still perfectly and tanked a hit from Kuzuki(with caster's death, his enhancements are gone. I think this was briefly shown in a few seconds scene where he is about to attack) while at the same time stabbing and cutting him down. It's just a nit pick but they should have kept that scene instead of just dodging the attacks.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on May 09, 2015, 02:49:57 PM
18:

Only real complaints are that there are obvious cuts in the episode. I am going to assume that the BD is going to have longer episodes. It's interesting how quickly they're moving along here. Also poor adaption choice if Shirou really did block all those swords like that. In the VN he copied the sword rain and did one himself. I hope the BD shows that, otherwise bleh.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on May 09, 2015, 03:25:45 PM
Episode 18

One thing I never understood is how Archer is able to conjure Unlimited Blade Works without the full incantation.  I can't imagine time constraints being a factor since it is not like the dude is reciting a 15 page essay or something.  At least Unlimited Blade Works looked pretty good and the episode itself did a pretty good job on revealing more of Archer's background. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 09, 2015, 06:46:21 PM
Probably since it's going to happen (IIRC) two more times, maybe they didn't want to saturate the whole incantation thing.  It isn't really that important, other than being horribly bad Engrish.  Someone was complaining that the "translation" done by Crunchyroll wherein Rin is reciting the Japanese lines of the incantation, was still being subtitled as the Engrish counterparts.  In this episode, they subtitled Rin's comment about one of the incantation lines as a straight Japanese-English translation.  Apparently they changed their minds.

In any event, while in the first season I was snickering because they might as well have held up a big sign that revealed Archer's identity, this episode made it so painfully obvious that I'm not sure we need to hide those spoilers anymore.  If you don't know who Archer is by now, you're pretty damn dumb.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on May 10, 2015, 01:21:07 AM
18:

Well, I got bored. It just never feels like shits getting real in this story. I used the word aimless to describe the end of the first cour. The sentiment has stuck around.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on May 10, 2015, 05:13:03 AM
18:
Besides the obvious cut in the episode (At least I hope it was a cut), I thought this episode was otherwise excellent. Its interesting seeing all the servants acting with their own interests.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on May 16, 2015, 12:50:08 PM
Episode 19

Love the reference to one of F/Z's best plot twists which made Kirei a memorable and entertaining villain.  This was a good episode explaining on the EMIYA character which makes sense.  It looks like this is probably where things will be moving and it should be a good fight next episode.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on May 16, 2015, 05:03:10 PM
Something felt a bit off with the intro flash back of how EMIYA became a Counter Guardian. They made it seem like he became a guardian after he made a contract with Alaya during the intro flash back. From what i remember, he faced a calamity the same as the holy grail(which should be a nod to heaven's feel) and he is already on his early thirties yet the flasback shows that he still looks the same as the teenage Shirou. He already had the white hair and tanned skin because of his overused of magic. After he was betrayed and executed by the very same people he saved, Alaya then made him a Counter Guardian. Needless, to say the whole counter force flashback was underwhelming than from what i was expecting. I expected Archer's flashbacks to consists of flashy styled homicides, and what we got is ISIS army being killed by arrows lol

Anyway this whole EMIYA conflict was one of the most powerful scene on the VN and this is where Emiya Shirou's character comes full in circle. I hope they won't ****ed the whole scene because it's what made the Unlimited Blade Works route. Oh, and we finally get a glimpse of Fukusawa's Remiyax.

and being Lancer is suffering.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on May 16, 2015, 06:22:25 PM
I noted how, despite Archer noting that he (as per the job) killed indiscriminately, all the people we saw perforated with arrows had AK-47s. Telling? I think so, but I'm not quite sure what to take away from it; would it be offensive? Not really. But showing well-equipped soldiers with something other than AK47s get shot up would certainly be more unusual than what we got.

I think they're just trying to appeal to the idea of EMIYA perforating a ragtag bunch of fighters who can't particularly fight back; hence the idea of EMIYA as an increasingly reluctant executioner for some bizzare astral power.
Oh, and frankly, I don't know why the counter-force should give a damn about what kind of mess humans are making of their lives. I always saw it as a kind of defense mechanism for properly, astronomically cataclysmic events.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 16, 2015, 08:29:46 PM
Why is that offensive?  The Ak-47 is one of the most widely distributed weapons in the world.  There's a reason why you see a lot of images of foreign nations at war running around with them.  They're numerous, and they're cheap.

It's not like we're only talking about middle eastern Muslim fanatics who use them.  They're used everywhere there is conflict.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on May 16, 2015, 09:19:57 PM
So...

The use of the AK47 is not... precisely what irks me.
What I was pondering was why the production team decided to have these draped AK47 holders be the ones to get shot. Not some pro-looking soldiers; while the AK47 is widely distributed, cheap, and (I hear) a very solid gun, plenty of militaries don't use them much. I mean, the FN FAL was everywhere at one point. I've seen a number of small-ish security companies that issue G3s. But none of this changes my observation about the fact that none of the mooks we see getting shot are shown to be the equipped, prepared, backed-up soldiers that you'd see in the description of any news channel of their own military.
And this is the real point here. Say a news channel wants to publish images of 'its own' soldiers (i.e. its country's). What we see there are artillery units, soldiers advancing in organized lines, or pressing forward in trained and co-ordinated motions. You'll see a tank. An APC maybe. Whatever equivalent of Hummer is in use. Its when they want to show the enemy forces (especially in WoT footage, but not exclusively limited to that) that they show these veiled guys with AK47s. Its these "other guys" we see getting shot; never "our guys". So whats the point here? Archer is supposed to be the image of the reluctant/pacifist Gundam pilot?

Then the real question is why its this, quoting redgrave, ISIS army being killed by arrows. Not Japanese, not French, nor American, nor Chinese, nor Indian, or Egyptian, Yemeni or Irani or anything. Some unnamed international stereotype of nationless terrorist insurgent.

So, uh, yeah. Archer is a Gundam pilot.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 16, 2015, 10:19:34 PM
So they were being topical.  I don't know why that's offensive... unless... YOU'RE one of those draped AK47 wielding terrorists!
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Pebble on May 17, 2015, 05:07:19 AM
Does that scene qualify as being topical if they had nothing to say about said topic? I suspect they just threw it in because they thought "war-torn and shit" and their minds probably jumped straight to Iraq or sth.

I first used the word 'offensive' when I was wondering why it was that they only ever show Emiya making pincushions out of draped AK47-mooks. I was wondering if they thought it would be offensive to use an actual country's military.
Am I particularly pissed? Well, not really. Its just boring when all mooks slowly start becoming the same thing. And by same thing I mean drawn from the same archetype. A While back this spot was occipied by Russians; Nazis are a favourite; More Russians, and now this. It was a lazy habit then, and its a lazy habit now.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on May 17, 2015, 12:18:24 PM
I'm not sure why the AK47 matters. It's the most popular gun most in illegal circulation for criminal and terrorist organizations in the world isn't it?

Also I think Archer was shown killing Roman soldiers in one scene too.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Archon_Wing on May 19, 2015, 03:58:26 PM
It is clear Obama was involved in the Holy Grail War and sent Archer to find Osama. It was indeed sorta stereotypical to display war and death as such, but these things are so generic and inconsequential that it really is a personal decision to get offended.

I don't really see any indication that the world as presented in Fate/Stay Night as anyways concurrent with the world we see now; I mean magic and stuff, as well as the numerous paradoxes that lie around here suggests that the world depicted is merely just one possibility. I wouldn't know, being a anime viewer. I'm more intrested in whatever dickish mannerisms silly Kirei is going to engage in next. Decent episode, really. Normally, when the Fate franchise turns into Fate/Talk Night, I'm not a fan, but this did its job mostly.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: The Big Guy on May 23, 2015, 10:31:26 PM
20:

Though this episode struggles from the fact that it is not particularly subtle (HEY HERE'S THE THEME, LET ME TELL YOU IT AGAIN) and retreads a lot of the things that we heard last episode, this was excellent and an appropriate payoff to this storyline. I especially like the use of repetition, which is classic Nasu (THIS CHAIR THIS CHAIR THIS CHAIR), and the insert song at the end.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 24, 2015, 08:45:15 AM
Feels more like they're dragging this out a bit, probably because they realize they don't have enough material to fill a full cour.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on May 24, 2015, 11:08:30 AM
20:

Absolutely wonderful episode aside from that insert song towards the end. These Sony artists suck. It's basically the climax of this route, so spending as much time on it as possible is more than welcomed. I like how Saber is having an ideological battle of her own on the sidelines watching this fight. While she doesn't get the focus of Fate route, it's a welcome additive to UBW to see this.

These whiny asshats on MAL are worse than the LB vn psychos. You just can't reasonably expect a much better adaption than what we have got now, and the fact that they're complaining is pretty disgraceful.

UBW I imagine will end up not being completely satisfactory for certain viewers. We see that Kotomine basically didn't get any screen time this route, which for Fate/zero viewers may be disconcerting, but that's because characters like his and Rider get the limelight in HF. All 3 routes are part of the same story, so the UBW anime while reasonably good as a standalone is not exactly meant to be like that.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on May 24, 2015, 12:50:26 PM
20:
Fantastic episode really. I'm with Reckoner. While there have been some bad adaption choices (Most of them really with Rin's character), this is definitely the adaption this VN deserved.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on May 24, 2015, 04:23:49 PM
I actually have seen some people wishing for a Fate Route adaptation but i think it's too late. If we ever got one, Nasu said it will be a heavily modified version version of that route for better or worse. So yeah i think a lot of people especially Zero-viewers are expecting UBW to be THAT follow up to F/Z( but with the VN format(Three routes which none are really stand alone) that's kinda impossible. Nasu kinda had to reboot or rewrite F/SN and combine the three routes into one cohesive story.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 24, 2015, 05:05:21 PM
I've noticed most visual novel readers, regardless of the story, are just absurdly picky and act like theirs no benefits to the anime medium. It's kinda saddening really, but hey that's their choice. If you ask me I vastly prefer the anime version (especially the fights, because cmon static pictures don't do these fights justice).
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Xyzz on May 24, 2015, 05:37:38 PM
I don't have the direct comparison, but for what it's worth, I also highly prefer the ufotable adaption of UBW to the VN version of the first route (quit reading F/SN after that). Anime seems like the far better suited medium for a story involving that much "action parts" (:
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on May 24, 2015, 05:39:16 PM
It just that those guys won't just shut up. Not only do they completely nitpick just about every little thing not EXACTLY like it was in the VN (And what VN adaption is like that to begin with), they outright make stuff up about source material. And they seem to have this bad notion that the fact it isn't as popular as Fate/Zero was would mean they'd obviously adore the VN. Really you can't get anymore elitist. Again, not that there aren't problems, but geez. You can completely understand why people despise Fate fans so much (Even if they can get bad sometimes themselves).
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 24, 2015, 06:06:27 PM
Yeah it's like they don't realize...the VN also had a butt load of problems (like people think the anime pacing is slow ho boy).

Kinda makes me sad to be a visual novel fan at times =/
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on May 24, 2015, 06:51:42 PM
Speaking of excessive overacting on the other side of the spectrum, that ANN review. Jesus Christ. I know F/SN isn't the greatest when it comes to gender, but really?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on May 24, 2015, 07:00:25 PM
Third wave feminism is an incredibly toxic culture that is corroding all entertainment.

But yeah it's not even all fate fans. Just a select few idiots. People just can't deal with the fact that not everyone is going to like the material the way they do. I like shirou as a mc quite a lot but I'm not going to lose my shit over the anime just because some viewers can't understand him or find him boring. It's not even a matter of whether the vn or anime is flawed, sometimes people just have different tastes.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 24, 2015, 07:24:01 PM
That ANN review seems to be more of a tangent about feminism then anything really. The points about the execution are legit in their own way, but everything else was just a bunch of nonsense (Kirei is now an alpha male?)

That person should try Jojo out. I think they would find it fun.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on May 24, 2015, 10:02:19 PM
lol i can only imagine that ANN reviewer's reaction once HF comes out.

So..... i think that if people didn't find the latest episode moving or any kind of satisfaction then there is nothing UBW can offer anymore really. All those exposition and build up was for this climax and Shirou's answer. It's what made UBW. The next episodes will be about Dolphins and Gil yelling "Onore, Onore" multiple times.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Shadowmage on May 24, 2015, 10:09:57 PM
20

Ah, the climax of the arc.  It wasn't as satisfying as I wanted to be, but the idea still is strong.  This is one of those things that lingers in your mind longer after the show ends, which is a large part of why the Fate franchise has been around so long as far as I'm concerned.  I still think that UBW should have been 12 episodes in a 39-43 episode run of all the arcs
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on May 25, 2015, 01:04:39 AM
Well behind on this series, but I just have to say sometimes I wonder what is more brutal, ANN's almost comically tangential special topics disguised as reviews that usually feature someone from the staff going on some sort of obviously personal SJW rant for what appears to be click bait purposes or MAL's "I have no idea what I'm even trying to say but am going to say shit anyway and be loud and forceful about it goddammit" approach.  Just insanity on the internet compared to the convention I just got back from and that involved a lot of unsavory stuff.  I'm leaning towards ANN since the click bait seems to have succeeded in steering the nature of the discussion towards gender issues when even from having seen the pretty shitty compressed movie version of the story arc I know has nothing to do with anything that is going on at the climax of the story.  On the other hand MAL...so much shitposting and ultra dedicated in a couple of peoples case.  It's like if you filtered just a few users the sprawling pages of unreadable gibberish would at the very least be halved.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 25, 2015, 06:22:59 AM
Funny enough despite how lousy a story Grisaia no Rakuen is, because the visual novel isn't out almost no one is complaining about it. Funny how that works eh?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on May 25, 2015, 09:15:26 AM
That and the fact the first season was so terrible everyone quit on it.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 25, 2015, 11:25:39 AM
Hey, don't count the second season out yet!  It could make a comeback and be just as awful as the first season!
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on May 25, 2015, 12:01:02 PM
Funny enough despite how lousy a story Grisaia no Rakuen is, because the visual novel isn't out almost no one is complaining about it. Funny how that works eh?

The phenomenon I notice more is that when the source material for something is less available and it's just hard to get access to in general outside of Japan and thus gains a bit of a cult following is that the people that have seen it or read it or at least claim to will talk it up like it's the greatest thing ever that if it's ever introduced to the "plebs" will lead to it's immediate devaluing and thus by dumb extreme internet logic is therefore completely ruined forever.  An example from my walk would be Crossbone Gundam where for the longest time it was completely untranslated and largely only available through import or if you've played the Super Robot Wars Alpha 2 game and thus treated like the holy grail of the franchise.  Now that it's translated it's hardly ever talked up anymore because people can read it and see that it indeed has quite a few really odd story elements about it and is kind of just the start of a much larger series of storylines, which was kind of always the impression I got in the first place.  I can't help but wonder if the same thing is going on here and it's just a group of people making a tremendously big deal out of the fact that others are getting to see it now and having their own opinions that are formed by watching the anime.

At the end of the day if people reach their own conclusions and aren't being obnoxious about it it's like who cares how they came to it.  I don't know, it's very anti-scientific.  The greater concern though, where are all these people going to go after this show is wrapped up and how bad will it be for internet discussion because it seems like right now all their energies are being focused on shitposting the show.  Frankly I just hope none of them ever show up here.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on May 25, 2015, 12:30:10 PM
When it comes down to it, discussing popular source adaptions for anime is just a terrible thing all around. 80% of the audience basically makes up their mind about these things before even seeing it either because they already read it or they want to be a hipster since its popular and start making the most bizarre and asinine claims. I was hoping this adaption would bring some genuine discussion of the show's finer details, but no one seems interested. We are currently in the middle of the ideological climax of the route/show and instead of discussing some of the very interesting events on screen, we're left discussing bad translations of Shirou's lines for memes and how Ufotable destroyed Shirou's character. Well that's also partially why I've took a "if you can't beat them, join them" attitude with source material reading for things I like. The best discussion for these stories takes place not in the anime adaptions but in the source material threads. Yahari at least has broken that mold a little bit since there's been some good discussion out there.

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on May 25, 2015, 01:28:53 PM
When it comes down to it, discussing popular source adaptions for anime is just a terrible thing all around. 80% of the audience basically makes up their mind about these things before even seeing it either because they already read it or they want to be a hipster since its popular and start making the most bizarre and asinine claims. I was hoping this adaption would bring some genuine discussion of the show's finer details, but no one seems interested. We are currently in the middle of the ideological climax of the route/show and instead of discussing some of the very interesting events on screen, we're left discussing bad translations of Shirou's lines for memes and how Ufotable destroyed Shirou's character. Well that's also partially why I've took a "if you can't beat them, join them" attitude with source material reading for things I like. The best discussion for these stories takes place not in the anime adaptions but in the source material threads. Yahari at least has broken that mold a little bit since there's been some good discussion out there.

Yeah I totally know what you mean, there definitely seems to be this phenomenon where source material of really popular stuff can get labelled as sacrosanct and even the slightest change, addition, or omission in the adaptation to a new medium gets blown way out of proportion and taken as an attack on the source of some sort (I guess...I mean I don't know for sure because I don't completely speak full on irrational bullshit) instead of just a new reinterpretation.  A podcast I frequently listen to from Gundamn@MAHQ recently had a really good discussion on all of this in any case where they centered it around the subject of Michael Bay's TMNT movie where essentially they pointed out that there have been multiple interpretations of that whole franchise already including even the original iconic TV series a lot of us grew up with that was itself a wild departure from the source.  It was also pointed out that even if people don't like that adaptation it doesn't mean that their "childhood is ruined" because for popular enduring franchises like that there will always be new interpretations and that some will improve upon the first one or find new ways of examining it and of course others will just be crap.  Hell that's the very basis of how the oral tradition that the Greek bards like Homer who are among the very reasons we have storytelling worked.  They'd take an interesting story they heard told to them and try to see if they could tell it their own way and possibly better, grander, more epic-wise and with more anecdotes and personalized themes and touches and then pass that on to the next generation to hopefully inspire them to do the same. That's just how it is, that's how Batman is, that's how Spiderman is, that's how Star Trek or Star Wars or practically any franchise that has been around for at least a decade is and if people can't get it by now then I don't really know what to say. 

That's been my frustration with the state of Gundam anime for a while now as well just as a personal example, the fact that people still can't get how the whole AU thing is supposed to work and that indeed it's not U.C but that that doesn't inherently make it automatically bad either by default.  Looking back at this rate I definitely regret the part I played in all of that drama a while back cause clearly I did not understand the full scope of the situation and how it was going to turn out.  It just seems to be the destiny of all popular franchises to get shitposted to death on the internet nowadays, but it's the sudden dedication supposedly business driven sites like ANN are taking to stirring the pot that worries me more now.  If even some of their favorite site sponsors productions aren't safe from that sort of thing now it opens up a whole new can of worms now.  The slope definitely just got a whole lot more slippery still.

For those that are curious the one that wrote that ANN article Gabriella Ekans was apparently spotted on twitter posting "YOLO" with an affiliated hashtag just before the article went live.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on May 25, 2015, 02:05:09 PM
At this point, "It is what it is" seems to be the most agreeable approach to take now. It's much better to watch it then talk about it is another. It's a shame considering there's a good chance this part of  the anime can actually be better than the VN, but no one can will actually ever be able to talk about it properly (If they'll even be able to talk about it) without some bad comment coming along and ruining something. Heaven's Feel will most likely be more well recieved so there's that at the moment.

For those that are curious the one that wrote that ANN article Gabriella Ekans was apparently spotted on twitter posting "YOLO" with an affiliated hashtag just before the article went live.
At this point I feel sad for her. It's pretty obvious she wrote this article just to shame Fate fans and get a rise out of them. So she's basically Kirei.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on May 25, 2015, 03:09:21 PM
At this point, "It is what it is" seems to be the most agreeable approach to take now. It's much better to watch it then talk about it is another. It's a shame considering there's a good chance this part of  the anime can actually be better than the VN, but no one can will actually ever be able to talk about it properly (If they'll even be able to talk about it) without some bad comment coming along and ruining something. Heaven's Feel will most likely be more well recieved so there's that at the moment.

For those that are curious the one that wrote that ANN article Gabriella Ekans was apparently spotted on twitter posting "YOLO" with an affiliated hashtag just before the article went live.
At this point I feel sad for her. It's pretty obvious she wrote this article just to shame Fate fans and get a rise out of them. So she's basically Kirei.

The problem with certain sites really is that even if you try to it's essentially guaranteed that within minutes one of those Priest types is going to barge into the middle of the conversation you have to pontificate at you about it when you don't even care.  It just amazes me the dedication that some of them have to it too like those annoying street revelers and protesters that can't differentiate between demonstrating a viewpoint publically and when they're outright starting to interfere with other peoples right to have their own conversation and enjoy themselves peacefully.  That's why protesters usually have to get a permit to stage their protests in public so that people that want to go and here what they have to say about a subject can and those that don't aren't being harassed and have to have it force in their face.  It's called being civil.  In any case the whole issue can be solved just by moderating a handful of people but when it starts to feel like those that should be in charge of moderating the conversation and keeping some semblance of order are the ones fanning the flames that when you get these anarchic and chaotic threads where the person with the loudest voice and biggest club wins.  Sadly "professional business" sites like ANN seem more concerned with moderating people that commit such vile offenses as having quote trees that are too long as opposed to the real assholes.

As for other story arcs or anything else with an intense fandom really, I wouldn't necessarily count on it.  If you're trying to apply reason and logic to those situations it doesn't really have a lot to do with it.  That's why I've sort of adopted the mantra "Some people just want to bitch and things like facts and reason aren't going to get in the way of it".  Certain types will gladly ignore the big picture and just shoot straight for the goal if need be.

Amusing I found this from ANN's infamous site editor Zac Bertschy which I found pretty golden

Quote
Zac wrote:
Were I to turn back the clock and could've seen this before it published, I'd have asked Gabriella to separate the sections that explicitly discuss overall themes that the entire show is tackling and save those for a thinkpiece on the series as a whole. Moving forward this is what she'll be asked to do - I don't think what she's saying is somehow inappropriate or unfounded (whether I agree with any of it or not is irrelevant), but it does belong in its own space.

I don't and will never apologize for publishing criticism that comes from a feminist angle - it's just as valid and worth reading as any other opinion. But for those disappointed that this episode review felt very off-topic, we'll do better moving forward.

What I don't understand is why is it so critically important to them that things be tackled from a feminist angle even if the guy admits the review was horribly off topic and did is quarter assed fake apology which even for him is unprecedented.  If ANN wants to be known as a site that takes that angle they should probably put it in their banner or make it well known so that people can know and make an informed decision on the content.  I also just don't understand why they always have to be so douchebaggy about it all in terms of tone and how they relate back to fans.  It just looks like open season or something, I don't know.  I just have a lot of problems with that approach and trying to still call yourself a professional news site.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 25, 2015, 03:30:42 PM
Hey, don't count the second season out yet!  It could make a comeback and be just as awful as the first season!

Hmm...well? I guess we'll just have to wait and see. What I find funny is people actually think the story line is "Dark and Serious". In fact it's one of the few visual novels that got a "Serious" tag on one of the main eroge selling sites. People will probably blame the anime being stupid on being a bad adaption once again though.

To me there's only one visual novel adaption that deserves...a good bit of my hate and that is Umineko. But that is due to crappy directing and bad animation, so there really wasn't any saving graces there (I can accept a less detailed version of the source material, but without good directing its going nowhere fast). Even the Tsukihime anime is nowhere near as bad as fans make it out to be.

But yeah it is what it is.

As for something more constructive. How are you guys liking this show compared to Fate/Zero and Kara no Kyoukai? I personally kinda dig Kara's atmosphere the most so it's still kinda standing on top for me. 

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 25, 2015, 04:12:10 PM
Quote
I don't and will never apologize for publishing criticism that comes from a feminist angle - it's just as valid and worth reading as any other opinion.

/snicker.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on May 25, 2015, 04:25:31 PM
As for something more constructive. How are you guys liking this show compared to Fate/Zero and Kara no Kyoukai? I personally kinda dig Kara's atmosphere the most so it's still kinda standing on top for me.
I would put Fate/Zero below both though not because I hate it. I just don't like it as much as the other two. If pressed for an answer I'd put Stay Night slightly above Kyoukai. While Kyoukai has better direction on the whole (Not bad for a movie series with seven directors), I find Night more engaging on the whole.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Mr. Flawfinder on May 25, 2015, 04:26:01 PM
To me there's only one visual novel adaption that deserves...a good bit of my hate and that is Umineko. But that is due to crappy directing and bad animation, so there really wasn't any saving graces there (I can accept a less detailed version of the source material, but without good directing its going nowhere fast).

Well I personally thought Umineko was a lot of fun. The last eight or so episodes may have been crap (stupid Ange), but I maintain that the first 2/3 of that show was freaking hilarious. Watching Battler continue to deny the existence of magic to Beatrice's face despite the fact it was happening right in front of him, along with those goat soldiers, Maria's (and the show's in general) stupid attempts to be scary, and watching people get killed over and over with a giant cake easily made that the best anime of Summer 2009. The horrible art direction just added to the camp.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on May 25, 2015, 04:44:48 PM
As for something more constructive. How are you guys liking this show compared to Fate/Zero and Kara no Kyoukai? I personally kinda dig Kara's atmosphere the most so it's still kinda standing on top for me.

I'd probably put F/Z and KNK above this show too. Comparing the UBW route alone to F/Z and KNK is quite unfair to me. Now if comparing F/SN as a whole to both, then i would definitely choose F/SN > KnK > F/Z. ........Tsukihime anime when?  :'(

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 25, 2015, 04:48:00 PM
If I watched it like it was Jojo...then yeah maybe I would have liked it more. But to me it was just a very silly impersonation of Higurashi (this was before I read the visual novel of Umineko btw).

Though I will admit the part where Maria literally stuffed her face in Rosa's mouth was probably one of the most unintentionally funny scenes ever.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on May 25, 2015, 06:59:58 PM
I think the following visual novel adaptions all deserved the flak they got.

Tsukihime
Majikoi
Umineko
Chaos;Head
Kanon 2002
Fortune Arterial
Persona 4 (If we count JRPG adaptions in this mix too)
Grisia

I'm sure there are other titles in this equation to put in as well.

As for the type moon anime... I think the best by a fair margin is Kara no Kyoukai. If I was to compare the UBW anime alone to F/Z I'd pick F/Z, but once the HF movies come out I'm pretty sure I'll lean to F/S N as a whole in the end. Kotomine in HF is too sexy.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: SQA on May 25, 2015, 09:30:29 PM
Chaos;Head was utterly unwatchable.  And I tried, twice.  I was away from anime at the time, so the shock with how awesome Steins;Gate was compared to Chaos;Head must have been mindblowing.

Converting VNs to Anime is far more difficult than even Manga or Light Novels.  That's why it's not tried very often.  We see how rarely it works, unless you have 3+ cours to work with when dealing with a fairly linear story.   Granted, no one else has seemed to want to try the Yosagu no Sora route lately.  Which was probably less confusing than what some series try to do.

The ANN issue is pretty straight forward: Zac is engaged to Hope and they're both, now, West Coast Progressives.  When your site is attempting to produce too much written content, you default to personal quirks.   Also, in the Internet Commentary world right now, pissing off your readership is the "in" thing.  Minus that it's killed huge chunks of websites in the process.  It should also be pointed out that a bunch of unpaid anibloggers do a lot better job than most of their writers.  Theron's a pro, but that's a separate issue.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 25, 2015, 10:05:47 PM
Quote
The ANN issue is pretty straight forward: Zac is engaged to Hope and they're both, now, West Coast Progressives.

Oh shit, this keeps getting better and better!

*EDIT*

Okay, so in fairness to all parties involved, I went and read Eken's review, and wow.  Thing is, I don't know if people who are pissed at this review KNOW what it is that is really wrong with it.  Her conjuring gender war buzzwords into a review doesn't, in and of itself, invalidate everything she's trying to say.  While Reckoner is right that there are an awful lot of slanted, biased, myopic, and delusional opinion makers out there whose works read like the thing being reviewed is irrelevant, in favor of writing a treatise on whatever ideological perspective they believe in, that goes in a lot of directions.  Feminists are obnoxious twats; so are anti-feminists.  Republicans are douchebags; so are Democrats.  Dogs suck; cats also suck.  In other words, it doesn't matter what ****ing piece of shit narrow minded viewpoint you come from, your work will suffer because you are incapable of deviating from that narrow mindedness.  It has nothing to do with whether your ideals are RIGHT or not, it has to do with the fact that your audience DOESN'T GIVE A ****.  People like this write OVER their viewers heads, rather than write TO them in order to spark conversation.  I think this is what Zac was trying to get at with his PR attempt:  there are times and places to be an uppity faggot; writing a review about a single episode of a much larger work and franchise is not the place to put your soapbox.  And I agree with him.

On the other hand, and, again, in fairness to Eken, she's not WRONG about a lot of what she wrote.  A couple of the first paragraphs I actually agree with.

Quote
First, I need to outline Shirou's supposed conflict of idealism and how it fails as an adequate exploration of the theme. Shirou is an idealist who seeks to do good no matter how much it hurts him. This is unsustainable, so he becomes a broken, morally compromised person. For convoluted plot reasons, he is immortal, so he decides to commit suicide by going back in time and killing his teenage self. Teenage Shirou gets wise to this, confronts his future self, and then decides to continue on the same path that leaves him a broken shell of a man. This should set up a “hope springs eternal, the future is filled with despair but humanity can endure through kindness and effort” moral, but the show fails to establish an upside to his decision. There are examples of this done right: in Fate/Zero, Kiritsugu's actions kill thousands of people and ruin his life, but he's able to save one child and (we presume at the time) give him a happy life. In Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Madoka's actions don't eliminate the need for magical girls to sacrifice their lives in the struggle against entropy. Instead, she performs an act of mercy, giving them painless deaths. These moments are uplifting because they show that human decency can survive in even the most overpowering environments of futility and despair.

The issue with Shirou/Archer's story is that there's no upside. If Archer really saves anyone or improves their lives, the show doesn't emphasize it. It's all about his sorrow and regret – he languishes in fields of dead bodies. As such, there's no nobility to Shirou's decision to stick with his ideals. It doesn't seem like he's helping anyone, so it reads only as selfishness and stubborn egoism. I realize why this happens the way it does. Unlimited Blade Works is the mid-point of Shirou's story. He doesn't change his mind and become a healthy person until the end of Heaven's Feel, but Heaven's Feel isn't part of this supposedly standalone mass-market anime series, so what we get is thematically inconclusive at best and reprehensible of Shirou at worst. This would be fine if the episode didn't frame Shirou's decision as noble. He's not reaffirming a doomed pattern of behavior (which would make FSN:UBW, like Fate/Zero, a tragedy) but somehow one-upping Archer. It would be noble if Shirou proved Archer wrong in any way, but he doesn't. Instead, his justification consists of unintelligible lines like “just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right.” That's not an argument. That's “I can't argue with you, but I'm just going to keep doing whatever I want.” There's emotion triumphing over cold reality, and then there's self-destructive stubbornness. This is the latter.

She's not wrong here, and I believe this is what Nasu was going for, and for exactly the reason she lays out:  this is the MIDDLE story of the development of Shirou.  Stay Night is Shirou's idealism being completely validated; Unlimited Blade Works is Shirou's idealism being questioned;  Heaven's Feel is Shirou's ultimate decision to reject his ideals.  I'm not sure I agree with her notion that HF is where Shirou is at his most balanced or "healthy", but it is still the climax of his journey.  And, yes, the audience actually has to be aware of these three facets in order for the whole story of Fate to make sense.  I've heard numerous people suddenly come to bouts of Fridge Logic and Horror when they realize that the audience HAS to be aware of SN and UBW in order for HF to make sense, and when you do realize that in SN and UBW, a lot of the stuff that is revealed in HF is also going on in THOSE routes, you realize that someone in this series has been going through some real shit.  Thus, she is correct that UBW, as a standalone series, feels sort of odd when you look at the pieces of the puzzle, as they are presented, by themselves.  If you had never played the VNs, or had been spoilered on everything, never watched the DEEN Stay Night, or even Fate/Zero, and only were aware of the storyline depicted in UBW, you might be left with a sense of Shirou being kind of a stubborn twit.

Unfortunately for Eken, this is also where she completely loses her shit.  She's trying to have her cake and eat it, too, with the rest of the bits on gender roles.  I don't really want to go into her own personal interpretations of what F/SN means to her, because while they're mostly bonkers to me, they're not to her.  Again, this is where "knowing your audience" is important, and she ran right over hers.  The responses, both inspired and intelligent and reactive and neanderthal bare that out pretty obviously.  I stay "mostly" because I'm not 100% sure I completely disagree with her interpretation either, as Nasu himself has publicly stated that if he were to go back and redo the Fate story, he would probably have made it a little more friendly in certain gender situations.  If the original writer can see a bit of singular minded misogyny in his work, and I can definitely see that criticism as being valid, then perhaps there IS something to an alternative interpretation on gender identities within the franchise.

However, if you're going to do that, then at least know what the blithering hell you're talking about and don't look too deeply into various actions as if their ONLY interpretation is whatever you're on about.  In a nutshell, don't allow confirmation bias to creep into your reviewing, and while maintaining completely neutral subjectivity is impossible, at least have the presence of mind to not blatantly contradict yourself.  There is a point where she's bitching about what everybody else is guilty of while bad things are happening to Rin.  In one sentence, she's not sure what version of Shirou this Archer is supposed to represent, and in the next, she's accusing him of being even more cold hearted because of how one particular Shirou lived his life (IE, the current one dating Rin).  Don't get lost in your thoughts.  If UBW can only be interpreted as a standalone series separate from the rest of the franchise, as per the stated requirement of making sure the mainstream audience understands what is going on, then stick with that.  Don't reference the other arcs when it suits you.

Anyway, too long, didn't read:  she ****ed up, editorially speaking, and got preachy, then lost track of her own thoughts.  It isn't a hideously terrible review, nor is it completely off base contextually speaking.  A bad idea, but not for the reasons people think.

Wait, I already said that.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 26, 2015, 05:26:46 AM
Yeah that's the thing. When she was talking about the actual execution of the theme of the show, I thought the review was fine and her complaints seemed to be valid. Everything else needed to be left out (or at least only hinted at that she felt uncomfortable with the series). It is a shame the visual novel can't work quite as well without all three routes, as I was hoping they could just write around the fate aspects of it (as much as people complain about the original anime, the original route wasn't any better and I'd rather it'd be left out then have to view it again).
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on May 26, 2015, 10:30:24 AM
In fairness, in Japan virtually everyone who is interested in Fate franchise, know the three routes. So it's a minor problem.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 26, 2015, 05:50:38 PM
Yeah it is kinda huge over there so I'm not surprised. Isn't it like the most popular visual novel ever? (Maybe a Key visual novel is more so).
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on May 26, 2015, 06:54:35 PM
Yeah it is kinda huge over there so I'm not surprised. Isn't it like the most popular visual novel ever? (Maybe a Key visual novel is more so).

Probably the Gyakuten Saiban/Phoenix Wright series at least on an international scale  but then not many visual novels ever end up actually officially leaving Japan let alone gaining any sort of mainstream notoriety.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 26, 2015, 07:48:02 PM
Ah yeah I knew I was missing something. Visual novels will never be taken seriously in the mainstream because well...it's just not a very well utilized medium (too much pandering, and hentai scenes). 

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on May 30, 2015, 01:32:56 PM
21:

If there is any reason to believe that Gilgamesh was corrupted by the Grail in some way, I think this would be it. I mean for the most part the Gilgamesh i know wouldn't say the poo poo he has been saying this episode. Eradicate humans? Really?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on May 30, 2015, 02:26:08 PM
Episode 21

I actually liked the conclusion of the battle between Archer and Shirou.  It may not have been an ultra violent confrontation with tons of flash and style.  Still, it works, even if some might think it was a waste of a competent remix of the EMIYA theme.

The one thing I got out of this is how hard it must have hit Saber that her wish won't be coming true due to the nature of the grail.  That and if she remembers it, how Kiritsugu's actions to have her destroy it was justified.  Especially since, she butted heads with Kiritsugu a lot in F/Z and for her to swallow the fact that he was right must have stung.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on May 30, 2015, 02:45:32 PM
21:
Poor Shinji. I felt really bad for.... Ha, ha, ha! Just kidding. May you burn in hell.

Anyway, I'd say Ufotable did a fine job on the whole Archer vs Shirou. The very end was nicely done.

Up next, Sex. Or Dolphins. One of those two.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on May 30, 2015, 03:41:37 PM
21:

While I do prefer aspects of the VN scene over this, it's still a mighty fine job with some welcome additions in dialogue and extra Saber scene was nice too. Shirou was able to remind Archer of why he loved the ideal in the first place and why they should pursue it despite all the suffering.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on May 30, 2015, 04:33:22 PM
21:

...What is this? Because what this looks like is Naruto. The fight outstayed it's welcome so long that I don't even remember how many episodes ago it started. What it consisted of was our plucky hero getting dropped on his ass repeatedly by an opponent way better than him, then flashbacks ensue, the fighters yell at each other, more flashbacks ensue, and talk no jutsu gets to the bad guy's head. In fact, I'll go so far to say that it's significantly worse than Naruto, because at least in that show there's a wide variety of powers being used, as well as a bit of strategy and choreography here and there. This was like watching two kids whack each other with pool noodles.

I think the worst part of it for me was how Archer was showed over and over how much stronger, faster, and more skillful he was, and said over and over how he was resolved to kill Shirou, as well as previously never giving a crap, but absolutely refuses to hack off some limbs, or even to just lop off the head. Dragging this out just makes it exponentially worse as a function of time. If he hasn't got it in him, why'd you make me watch all that posturing for? Or did you actually think you had me fooled?

I'd be more forgiving if either Shirou or Emiya had said something that caught my interest, but they were essentially repeating the same lines both from the beginning of the fight, and from the beginning of this series. Neither fighter displayed any character development, unless you count Archer pussing out. I'm not sure what's happened to UBW, but god help us if the Gilgamesh fight is also going to be like this. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on May 31, 2015, 12:42:10 AM
Archer was trying to destroy Shirou's ideals to bits before trying to kill him. With him destroying Emiya Shirou's ideals and and he himself killing Shirou, the chances of Shirou being a Counter Guardian would be less and the chance of a paradox would probably at least be higher(Even though it's still really hopeless). The fight is more than a battle of physical strength. It's a battle of minds and ideals. Archer in the end, remembers why they both pursued that childish yet beautiful ideal and by once again accepting that ideal, he accepts Emiya Shirou and thus forfeiting the fight.

I agree that the fight was really dragged on till this episode. Ufotable could have just ended Episode 20 with Shirou stabbing that blade to Archer. It's clear that Ufotable is running out of material to adapt so somehow they chose to show flash backs and flash backs through out the fight and also Gilgamesh announcing his "master evil plan" and some grail background to drag this episode.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on May 31, 2015, 09:53:52 AM
Believe me, I had Archer and Shirou's ideals hammered into my brain, and am aware of what the battle is trying to be. But what it ends up being is circuitous, pointless, and disingenuous. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 31, 2015, 03:44:12 PM
I said this before, but the story of EMIYA is one that I find to be Nasu's most brilliant idea and worst at the same time.  Probably not the idea, just the execution.  Having Archer turn out to be the future incarnation of one of the main characters was genius, even if it required a bit of loophole limbo in the rules he established for the universe of Fate, but once the shock factor wears off, the whole thing is quite dry and boring.  The Stay Night arc is the straightforward story of Shirou and Saber and good vs. evil, etc.  UBW ends up being rather ponderous and philosophical, and unfortunately isn't easy to relate to for the audience, which is why it ends up being my, and I think others as well, least favorite of the arcs.  Heaven's Feel animated should be a damned fun time, but you kind of have to get through this to appreciate everything in that final arc.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 31, 2015, 04:40:41 PM
You know it is quite humorous but that's exactly what the Shirou vs Emiya fight has always been, Though it's not like Naruto fights are the first to use talk no jutsu over ones ideals being recognized. But I'll agree, this is very very similar to Naruto vs Pain.

Then again I like Naruto and I like this, but I like hearing the critical reaction as well (I'll be honest I like Gilgy more than Archer).
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on May 31, 2015, 05:37:42 PM
Fate at its distilled essence is a battle of ideas so this fight pretty much captures everything that makes Fate well... Fate. It's safe to say that if you don't like this, you just don't like UBW probably.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on May 31, 2015, 09:47:00 PM
If we get more of this, my assessment of UBW will definitely take a nose dive, but this is a very different fight than any other that has been shown thus far. Saber and Archer vs. Berseker was fast-paced, exhilarating, and had no almost no talking. I don't remember wanting to complain about any of the fights with Assassin, Caster, or Kazuki, and ditto Gilgamesh vs Illya and crew. If there was talking, it was to the point. If a threat was made, it was justified immediately. Most importantly, there was sick choreography and pretty lights to distract me.

Having Archer say one thing repeatedly, Shirou another, does not make this a battle of ideals, because we're missing the 'battle' part. If a character believes something, says aloud that he believes it, and tops it off by claiming nothing in the world matters more to him, then I expect that all this should be backed up thoroughly and concisely, and in glorious ufotable animation.

I will go on a very long limb and suppose that for Archer to achieve his goal of not existing, Shirou has to end up crying on the floor, certain that he can't achieve his ideal of being the hero who saves everyone. If Archer is as battle-hardened and ruthless as he's made out to be, then the solution is obvious: cut off Shirou's arms and legs, THEN start talking about how he can't save anybody anymore, including himself. The message would be absolutely true, and therefore much more likely to get through to Shirou. If you seriously want to have this fight, I don't see why it wouldn't go down like so. The show tries to make the bullshit excuse that Shirou is gradually gaining Archer's skills, but this means that at the start of the fight he should be an easy target, and either way he still gets wrecked.

Hell, I'll be SUPER generous and suppose that Shirou is too good to let his limbs be hacked off. In that case, why is the choreography so bad?!?!

The only way I'm able to explain this fight to myself is that the plot demands that Shirou win, but in the VN source, you can die over and over during this, which better communicates how hopeless the fight is when you finally win. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on June 01, 2015, 01:16:52 AM
All Shirou did was revitalize his belief in the ideals he once held. Until then it was basically Shirou holding on to dear life and using Avalon hacks to survive while Archer slowly lost the will to fight. The last moment is Archer letting Shirou stab him even though he easily could have just crushed his face.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: CNile on June 01, 2015, 11:09:52 PM
21:

I guess you could say this was a bit... self-defeating.

I'll show myself out.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on June 06, 2015, 07:10:43 PM
22:
You know what they say... "The best way through a girl's heart is through your high jumps." :)
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 06, 2015, 07:55:31 PM
22:

Arguably a more anticipated episode than the showdown between EMIYA and Shirou or the one where Illya gets Gilgameshed, because we were all curious to see what direction ufotable was going to go:  jackhammer / Tohsaka's anus or CG metaphors / fishes.

I wont keep you in suspense:  we didn't get jackhammering nor Tohsaka's anus.  Indeed, we not only didn't get that, we got ufotable giving us the big swerve.  It looked like, for a minute there, what with Rin's constant blushing and embarrassment, that we might get a sex scene.  No, I wasn't naive enough to think that they'd actually animate a sex scene, even if ufotable did do a rape sequence for Kara no Kyoukai, but at least some kind of implied sexual activity.  Maybe a kiss sequence and fade to black or whatever.  I know that wouldn't fly with most censors, since both Tohsaka and Shirou are underage, but it would have been an acceptable alternative.

Instead, when Rin finally blurts out what she's going to do, there is an intentional jump-cut done right at that point, almost as if they WERE planning on doing something else, and then changed their minds, or at least gave them an opportunity to do either possibility so that the scene could flow naturally while still being edited.  It makes me wonder if the BluRay will have something different there, whereas the TV series has the much more somber sequence we got.

It should be noted that the scene they chose to animate IS straight from one version of the games.  There was a release of F/SN which removes the sex scenes and a lot of the sexual references and innuendo (which makes Heaven's Feel rather amusing) which is where this scene originated.  While the change from sexual intimacy (actually borderline sexual pornography, it WAS an eroge at one point) to a more mental and spiritual one, the point was that Rin and Shirou were having a moment together that wasn't just about sharing mana, but also deepening their bond.  In that regard, whether jackhammers or CG fish, the goal was accomplished.

I always wondered, though, what Saber was doing, or what she was thinking, while the sex scene was going on.  Maybe she just stuck Avalon in her ears or something.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on June 06, 2015, 08:23:46 PM
22:

Uhh...was this originally a sex scene, but they edited it heavily?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 06, 2015, 09:13:09 PM
What are you talking about?  Psychic Vulcan Mind Melding CGI Flagellum Fish not doing it for you?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on June 06, 2015, 11:30:28 PM
I hate to be an entitled voyeur, but...they could have at least made out. Shirou's been really upfront with his feelings, so I was hoping...Rin's reeeeeally hot.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: hyperknees91 on June 08, 2015, 01:00:28 PM
Well to be fair, Nasu never wanted sex scenes in FSN, he did it so the game would sell. I guiltily enjoyed the original sex scene because I love Rin, but it's quite honestly not a great scene in any regard. It's pretty much the very definition of a forced sex/romance scene and it was just very unnatural overall. What was done here was much better in my opinion as even as an eroge fan.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on June 13, 2015, 11:25:30 AM
Episode 23

I am not sure if this was a streamlined version of the second battle between Saber and Kojirou.  On the other hand, I understand they were emphasizing his time limit to remain in the world.  Still, I really wanted a second full-fledged battle between them which disappoints me.  I am also fine with them not explaining why Tsubame Gaeshi failed this time.  But, it will probably confuse people who aren't familiar with Fate at all.  Especially since, I think they only showed the cracked blade in the aftermath and not before the exchange.

On the other hand, I think next episode is where they will probably go all out with the budget.  I hope to hear the full chant of Shirou's version of Unlimited Blade Works.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Gadget on June 13, 2015, 11:49:40 PM
Another guest appearance by Eren Yeager . This time only his titan form arms. Eren is getting popular. I wonder will Gintama rope in in?

Gilgames is the strongest servant. But his battles are boring. So it's going to be Babylon's Gate vs Reality Marbles. It's just a shooting match. Non of the CQB like the other servants battles. So how are they going to upped the final battle.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Redgrave on June 20, 2015, 04:55:38 PM
They did definitely go all out with the GIl vs Shirou fight. At least they finally rightly portrayed how UBW works and how it was able to successfully countered GoB. Purists can whine all they want but this is the good adaptation that we can ever hope for despite not being great. Hoping Heaven's feel would be even better adapted.

Also can anyone remind me how Garcher survived his death?
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on June 20, 2015, 05:38:11 PM
24:

Coulda done with the deus ex machina from Archer, but boy did the Gil fight looks pretty.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on June 20, 2015, 05:49:22 PM
Another guest appearance by Eren Yeager . This time only his titan form arms. Eren is getting popular. I wonder will Gintama rope in in?

Gilgames is the strongest servant. But his battles are boring. So it's going to be Babylon's Gate vs Reality Marbles. It's just a shooting match. Non of the CQB like the other servants battles. So how are they going to upped the final battle.

I had always likened Gilgamesh battles to those ones near the end of Gundam Seed where Kira has the Strike Freedom with METEOR system packs where all he has to do is sit back and spam away at dozens of formerly threatening grunt units while everything just kind of hits with near perfect accuracy.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on June 20, 2015, 07:17:29 PM
Episode 24

A satisfying final fight with a fitting end in Gilgamesh getting swallowed into a void after getting shot right in the head.  Not to mention, this is the second time an Excalibur scene was done right by UFOtable.  So, I wonder how the epilogue will go considering that they could have ended it here.  Well, as the conclusion is proper, I will have no complaints. 
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Gadget on June 20, 2015, 10:11:43 PM
How did Archer survived?

So technically speaking, Saber destroyed the Grail again. And Archer is the last one left standing, without the Grail. And Archer is a free Servant. AS RIn was Saber's new master. So no Grail means this would be the last Grail war.

Although the last battle is a reflection of their abilities, is still too much of a spamming match up. So Shiro got a better spambot. Personally, I prefer a CQB type of battles. If I want to use a Gundam: Seed analogy, I prefer the battle between Freedom and Impulse. The multiple changes from Impulse got Freedom to end in a mushroom cloud,
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on June 21, 2015, 12:25:28 AM
Archer's survival if you go by word of god is simply independent action allowing him to miraculously bide his time for a couple final attacks in the last battle. A more convincing interpretation for me personally is that the counter force (the thing that summons counter guardians like him in times of desperation), kept him around to stop the grail from destroying everything.

24:

Absolutely amazing battle sequence. This was everything that DEEN failed to do in the movie's rendition of this battle. Thank god I don't have to watch Shirou project Excalibur/Caliburn and swing like a nut a thousand times. That was super lame. Loved all the remixes of classic tracks too such as This Illusion.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on June 21, 2015, 02:02:54 AM
This counter force sounds like canon deus ex machina.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 21, 2015, 02:10:25 AM
It's obnoxious, because it essentially makes nothing that anybody does worth anything.  If Shirou, etc, failed, the counter force would still save the world, because that's what it is supposed to do.  So all these sacrifices and all these accomplishments mean jack.  It just means the counter force doesn't have to get involved.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on June 21, 2015, 04:52:21 AM
It's obnoxious, because it essentially makes nothing that anybody does worth anything.  If Shirou, etc, failed, the counter force would still save the world, because that's what it is supposed to do.  So all these sacrifices and all these accomplishments mean jack.  It just means the counter force doesn't have to get involved.

Never mind that, if Gilgamesh were any more intelligent an antagonist who used the means at has disposal all he'd need to do is use his magic I win stick and Shirou wouldn't even be in the equation.  That alone right there always kind of made any accomplishment involving him in this series kind hollow to me really because nobody wins anything against him because they earned it, just because the last boss is an arrogant doofus.  It's kind of like winning the Ozma fight in FFIX, I never won it because I figured everything out, just because I had the exact right set of RNG on my save to trigger the lucky seven ability and ensured me he gave me the pattern I needed so that he wouldn't use a specific ability twice giving me the time I needed to outdamage his ass.  I never felt fully satisfied that I had beaten the boss and only knew it was because I got half lucky.

For that reason I kind of look forward to eventually seeing this Heaven's Feel arc where he apparently doesn't factor in much in the end and is the only route I'm not familiar with since it's never been adapted before.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on June 21, 2015, 09:40:24 AM
Saber beats Gilgamesh fair and square in fate route so actually no thats not true.

It's obnoxious, because it essentially makes nothing that anybody does worth anything.  If Shirou, etc, failed, the counter force would still save the world, because that's what it is supposed to do.  So all these sacrifices and all these accomplishments mean jack.  It just means the counter force doesn't have to get involved.

Well depends how you look at it. According to Nasu, the counterforce didn't get involved in this fight. In fact the counterforce according to lore would actually be quite happy in most cases with humans dying out like this because humans tend to just destroy the world or do things that invoke it in the first place. I've personally never been completely happy with the independent action interpretation of Archer's survival as shown here. Though I suppose his main problem wasn't so much the mana as lacking an anchor in the world. If he had the mana to heal himself, it's fine, but it's still a little sketchy.

But hey, maybe Nasu just doesn't believe in free will haha.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on June 21, 2015, 11:00:40 AM
How did Archer survived?

So technically speaking, Saber destroyed the Grail again. And Archer is the last one left standing, without the Grail. And Archer is a free Servant. AS RIn was Saber's new master. So no Grail means this would be the last Grail war.

The True Grail was not destroyed, so in theory another Grail War is possible in this timeline. The True Grail only appears in Heaven's Feel.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on June 21, 2015, 02:06:48 PM
Saber beats Gilgamesh fair and square in fate route so actually no thats not true.

It's obnoxious, because it essentially makes nothing that anybody does worth anything.  If Shirou, etc, failed, the counter force would still save the world, because that's what it is supposed to do.  So all these sacrifices and all these accomplishments mean jack.  It just means the counter force doesn't have to get involved.

Well depends how you look at it. According to Nasu, the counterforce didn't get involved in this fight. In fact the counterforce according to lore would actually be quite happy in most cases with humans dying out like this because humans tend to just destroy the world or do things that invoke it in the first place. I've personally never been completely happy with the independent action interpretation of Archer's survival as shown here. Though I suppose his main problem wasn't so much the mana as lacking an anchor in the world. If he had the mana to heal himself, it's fine, but it's still a little sketchy.

But hey, maybe Nasu just doesn't believe in free will haha.

The counterforce had always sounded kind of sounded a lot like the Lifeforce in FFVII to me.  Seemingly same basic idea by the sound of it, if something tries to mess with the planet it'll spawn weapons in one form or another to defend itself.  That was always my best understanding.

I wish they'd go back and redo the whole Fate arc now as something that doesn't end up all weird and confusing and with anime original stuff if only so I could see Wonder Boy get beaten at his full potential.  I feel that'd be the most satisfying conclusion really if he absolutely has to be involved in the final scenario.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 21, 2015, 07:12:53 PM
The Fate arc is boring, though.  It is designed mostly to give you an introduction to the Nasuverse and how it works and basically there to try to figure out why in the **** King Arthur has a vagina.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on June 22, 2015, 12:38:02 PM
The Fate arc is boring, though.  It is designed mostly to give you an introduction to the Nasuverse and how it works and basically there to try to figure out why in the **** King Arthur has a vagina.

I remember finding it okay up until the point when Gilgamesh was introduced and finding out what he was about and thinking you've gotta be kidding me that this is the final antagonist for this storyline after all that had gone on before.  I all but entirely losing interest after that point so that I don't really recall what happened and really my impression of the Fate franchise has never really 100% recovered since. Pretty much all I remember from beyond that point are his antics and a whole bunch of black goo.  It's really hard to get into a combat/mythology franchise where you can't take what it presents as its ultimate "fighter" even remotely seriously any time he's active in the plot and when you feel he cheapens, takes away from other characters, and usurps and effectively weakens the aspects you do like since if you find the "strongest character" that lame then what does is the franchise saying about the rest of its cast who actually try to grow and evolve if their supposedly inferior to pretty much it's lamest character who is the main obstacle to their goals because reasons. It's just really disappointing.

Parts where he isn't a factor are plenty fine IMO though.  Saber is actually one of the characters I really identify with though it's a shame the franchise interspersed moments of her being cool and alright with ones that basically try to diminish and belittle her chivalry, again an aspect of the franchise that doesn't sit well with me.  It's surprisingly anti-altruism and anti-honor/chivalry/selflessness and that sort of thing I find which also never sat that well with me since I don't see why it feels those are bad values to have and why seemingly everything must end in misery or some form of despair a lot of the time.  UBW seems like the one to least have this rebuke of selfless heroism aspect to it in the end but it also essentially says no matter what Shiro is likely doomed to become the brooding Archer and play out that whole story line.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Gadget on June 23, 2015, 05:27:08 AM
  UBW seems like the one to least have this rebuke of selfless heroism aspect to it in the end but it also essentially says no matter what Shiro is likely doomed to become the brooding Archer and play out that whole story line.

Archer did smile. And Rin was told to prevent Shiro to become the brooding Archer. So it's either she failed, or the future will be changed.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on June 23, 2015, 02:20:17 PM
Shirou won't become Archer in the UBW timeline. In none of the three routes actually.

He comes closer to this in the Superhero Ending in HF.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on June 27, 2015, 05:04:56 PM
25:

I obviously think much more highly of Fate than most in the so called "blogosphere," but I really think this has been a pretty stellar show.

I was originally going to give it just an 8/10, but upon thinking about it I thought...  can you honestly get much better than this for the kind of show it is? The production is absolutely stellar in all departments. Some of the best visuals I have ever seen in a TV anime period. While I sometimes took a little bit of an issue with the direction choices for action choreography compared to Zero (Something I thought Zero did better despite not being on the same level visually), it basically provided visual porn time and time again.

Of course I also happen to take a lot of interest in the Shirou/Kiritsugu dilemma. I think the manner in which Nasu approached the topic continues to provide a compelling anchor for the Fate universe in terms of character intrigue/development. No, Fate isn't terribly deep and is usually pretty easy to understand, but it is definitely not just about silly heroic spirits trying to bash each other's heads in.

The final episode was a nice treat for fans as it was nearly all completely original and we get to see more of one of the most important places in the Type-Moon universe. I have no problems giving this show a 9/10.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: MCAL on June 27, 2015, 07:30:38 PM
25:
This episode was basically pure fanservice. I wouldn't change a second of it. Yes, even Luvia.

A 9/10 seems appropriate. Not a perfect adaption by any means (Could of done without the flanderization of Rin to be honest, but I guess being more Tsundere now sells), but one the Visual Novel deserved.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 27, 2015, 08:22:09 PM
25:

That epilogue was boring and unnecessary, and probably just an excuse to get Luvia on a TV screen not involving Illya.  Yeah, fanservice for the fans, whatever.  Boring.  Told us nothing, didn't even answer any lingering issues about Shirou, and unless I've gone completely mad the implications here are that Shirou and Tohsaka aren't dating.  The shit is this?

It was almost an anticlimax to the previous episode.  Nobody wants to see characters wax melancholy about the previous big adventure.  We want them to ride off into the sunset not giving a shit that life actually does go on.  We want to imagine that they're still out there doing grand old things against grand old odds because that's what they are; larger than life fictional heroes who just ****ing get shit done that the rest of us slobs can't possibly ever do.  We don't want to see Shirou defeat Gilgamesh, destroy the Grail, get the girl, and then five months later go work at Walmart.  It just kills the buzz, I don't care how realistic it is.  When Daniel LaRusso won the karate tournament, we didn't see that Elizabeth Shue's character dumped him later until the NEXT movie, and that's because it allowed them to tell a story where Daniel meets a new Japanese chick.  You don't have Elizabeth Shue dump the hero at the end of the movie, you just don't.

And, no, that isn't quite what is going on here.  We actually do see Shirou and Tohsaka still doing things, but it might as well be as "ho-hum" as "Harry Potter and everybody else went to college and nothing else even remotely close to Voldemort ever happened again".  But what we see of them doesn't really matter.  Shirou decides to tag along behind Tohsaka, who then decides to tag along behind Shirou, and this is apparently all the further these two morons have gotten with each other.

The rest of the show is brilliant, easily worth the 9 from Reckoner, but that last episode was not my thing.  Fans can enjoy it all they want, I wish now I'd skipped it.

9/10.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Gadget on June 27, 2015, 11:50:57 PM
It's not Kill La Kill last episode. There is no one last hidden servant/master to kick. It's just back to reality. It could be done in a 5  minutes summing up. Going to Saber's grave did not contribute to the ending.

It got good visual. Not the best, but good. CQB was impressive. Enough character development so that the people are not paper thin. But it didn't really speak that much to me. Maybe I expected more battles. And some were too simplified, like Rider's death.

But it's still good. So I stick to what I like, And give a 8.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on June 28, 2015, 02:56:14 AM
25:

I'm sorry, the heavily upgraded assets of the already smoking Rin disabled my ability to think critically. I enjoyed this episode. Heh heh heh.

For me, judging this show is easy. I watched fate/Zero, then UBW, and I believe the former is superior in almost every way to the latter, though not by very much.

In Zero, the plot consists of a small but substantial cat-and-mouse death match. In UBW, things happen without rhyme or reason, and a few times without explanation.
In Zero, the protagonist is Kiritsugu, a badass, complex, morally conflicted character. In UBW, we have Shirou, a wannabe Power Ranger who repeats himself like a broken toy.
In Zero, Kotomine is a dynamic and lively character who undergoes a dramatic, but thoroughly explored, change. In UBW, he's the bad guy who got 1-shotted.
In Zero, Gilgamesh is the invincible King of Heroes, who talks shit but backs it all up and more. In UBW, he spends more time boasting than fighting, and gets his ass handed to him by a kid.
In Zero, the waxing was epic, had impact on the story, and drove strong character development, ala Banquet of Kings. In UBW, we are told silly drivel over and over, including how cool Power Rangers are.
In Zero, there was gripping emotional power, including tension as little Rin mounted her rescue, disgust at the degradation and betrayal, and awe at Iskander's last charge. In UBW, there were the woes of highschoolers, and in general the bad guys should have been cowering in fear for all the threat they posed.
I will admit both shows look absolutely gorgeous.

I've been a bit harsh, but I feel that this is a downgrade, not a fall from grace. 7/10 from me.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on June 28, 2015, 09:44:12 AM
Not saying this should change your rating or some of your comments, but consider Fate/Zero is self-contained. UBW is 1 part of a 3 part saga. Characters like Rider and Kotomine are killed unceremoniously here because HF is where they get explored. HF is what made Kotomine the lovable bastard we all know, whereas Zero merely presented the backstory of his "development." The banquet of kings is basically touching upon Saber's story which was mostly in Fate route and not in UBW. etc.

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on June 28, 2015, 12:49:49 PM
As far as I'm concerned, nothing that isn't on the screen exists.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on July 01, 2015, 08:38:20 PM
And, no, that isn't quite what is going on here.  We actually do see Shirou and Tohsaka still doing things, but it might as well be as "ho-hum" as "Harry Potter and everybody else went to college and nothing else even remotely close to Voldemort ever happened again".  But what we see of them doesn't really matter.  Shirou decides to tag along behind Tohsaka, who then decides to tag along behind Shirou, and this is apparently all the further these two morons have gotten with each other.

Just to touch base upon this again, I liked how this poster summed it up on AS:

Quote
I think this was essentially the entire point of this episode. It looked very much like Shirou was alone in that desert scene. Now there's some ambiguity left to leave it open for interpretation but I think the rest of the episode heavily implies that Rin and Shirou will ultimately have to separate. The scene in Glastonbury reveals that Rin and Shirou have fundamentally different viewpoints. Whereas Shirou is searching for more big events like the Holy Grail War, Rin expresses that she has found her calling and contentment at the clock tower. And the end scene at the dining table makes it clear that whilst she is willing to leave the Clock tower after three years for some adventuring with Shirou she also admits that she plans to settle down at the Clock Tower eventually, whilst Shirou warns her that he just isn't the type settle down at all. It's a great piece of writing really. It's a tragic dimension to Rin and Shirou's relationship and it's executed in such a subtle and melancholic way that leaves a really bitter sweet impression. These two characters are smart enough to be aware of the fate of their relationship but are able to handle it with such grace and maturity. They are able to confront each other, be honest with each other and ask the questions that need asking. And the fact that they are capable of doing so just makes the whole thing feel even more tragic.

I'm not one to buy into the idea that our heroes must have the happily ever after type of ending (And given everything we learned about Archer, how could we?). It might be the feel good thing to do, but that's something about Fate I've always appreciated. It doesn't buy into fairytales and explores how its characters tick quite well.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on July 01, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Except that it defeats the whole point of Rin's promise to EMIYA.  I'm not sure I even agree with the assessment of that AS writer.  Shirou is shown all alone in the desert in a quick few frame shot and we're supposed to take a lot away from it?  I think it is just supposed to imply that Shirou does indeed still go on to live the life that EMIYA had, he even says as much in the voice over.  Rin not being there doesn't mean squat.

Well, bravo Nasu, et al, for creating interest, I guess.  Wrote a complete omake episode for fanservice and it got the fanserved talking again as if everything was new.  Not sure why they'd completely undo the UBW endings, but whatever.  People can take away whatever they want from whatever they want.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on July 01, 2015, 09:36:53 PM
I think the whole sentiment of UBW to begin with is that Shirou acknowledges his path and firms his resolve. Yes, Rin is there to support him to help him enjoy his own life aside from that, to give him some of his own happiness, but we knew all along that Shirou was going to chase the dream. It is quite fitting.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: samui on July 20, 2015, 06:50:35 AM
I give it a middling 7 solely for the gorgeousness of the visuals and for RIN.

Okay.. This is going to be a very long rant not because this show is bad but because I am disillusioned by the fact that Fate/Zero has perfectly laid the prequel thing and I got this.

Other than the visuals, don't further ask me as to what I liked about this show because of my distaste for Emiya Shirou and for how UBW handled Kirei and Gilgamesh. I know that this is one of the three routes in the Fate franchise but I think ufotable could've done some minor modifications to prevent those latter two from being caricatures of their Fate/Zero selves. Saber's presence also dulled for some reason God knows. Yes, the creators of Zero and UBW are of different persons but I have my basis for complaining those due to:

1. This version utilized some scenes in Fate/Zero. I don't know if these are also scenes from the visual novel (I am an anime only watcher) BUT I haven't seen those in the Deen Film or in the Fate route where Shirou's beliefs are also explored.
2. Typemoon released Fate/Zero in the Light Novel version. So... that makes this a canon prequel.

Well, I read somewhere that they did a faithful adaptation to this so... 'job well done?' is I would like to say but they could've exercised some creative freedom in making this better. For instance, the two Emiya's dialogue bored me to death because for how many episodes they are speaking with each other. I am pretty sure that they should have seen shortcomings in this route given the length of time from the release of the visual novel and the UBW anime series.

The next paragraphs are my (super) personal bias as regards to the series.

Then for my biggest gripe, the meme-generator Shirou Emiya is deeply twisted in his beliefs. Whatever affirmation it is, I find it self sacrificial at best and downright crazy at worst. Is he even thinking the consequences of his actions? I got tired of his line "I know this... but" only to get beaten later because it seems like he does not listen to what others (no matter how constructive it is) have to say. I clearly remembered Saber's look when Shirou used his last Command Seal just to stop her because he has to give his arm to save his Fuji nee. Yes. That scene. That's when my patience finally snapped. Oh, UBW got a treatment for this. Make him OP towards the end. Ugh. Oh. Archer randomly appeared to save him in the end because, well, reasons.

On a side note, am I really going to feel sympathy for Ilya's death when she was not prominently shown in this version? I don't know, ufotable made it as dramatic as possible BUT it seemed like they forgot that we haven't seen her in a while before her death. Arg.

PS: There are two Masters and a Servant having a picnic in the middle of the Grail War? Are you really serious UBW? AAAAAAAAGH.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Reckoner on July 20, 2015, 09:18:54 AM
You're right that many elements of this show do not work in a vacuum. Take Illya's death for example. We barely know the character in this season. However, we DO know her from Fate route (Progression of story arcs in the VN) and that's where the audience is supposed to draw sympathy from. I'm not going to say looking at this show in a vacuum is wrong necessarily, everyone is free to think what they want, but ultimately it is true that this is one of the 3 arcs of the original source material of which each builds on each other.

My opinion from the very beginning is that Nasu and Ufotable should have said to hell with the source and done something new (Making an actual super route that would've given satisfactory exposure to every character's story from the VN as possible), but that's not a very popular opinion for VN readers. Also considering what happens in HF, I'm not too sure that is too feasible anyways. Point is, this show most certainly is for fans of the story than new people. They did a lot of nice things to allow new viewers, but ultimately it is huge fan wank. As a fan I enjoy it quite much, but it is definitely not meant to be a self-contained story.

And yeah. Galge elements be galge. This ain't F/Z. Still that picnic scene is an important moment of development for Shirou, as silly as it might have looked. Though of course you hate the guy so nothing to be said.

Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: samui on July 20, 2015, 06:22:05 PM
Oh.... I see. I don't regard it as a bad series and now I think about it, I kinda agree with your post. I'll wait for the HF route since that is the darkest of the three routes and maybe, just maybe, my hatred for Shirou will be gone at last.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on July 27, 2015, 11:23:06 AM
Decided to at least try to grind out the rest of the first cour for now

8+9:  I love how after the whole situation with Shinji and all the trouble he caused at the school Rin just makes it feel like she's scolding a very bad dog who just took a dump on her rug.  He then all but literally slips out the back door and goes off to whine, throw a temper tantrum and complain to Kotomine who seems to have for some reason decided it's a good idea to loan him Gilgamesh (One tool being the servant of another even bigger tool he probably won't listen to anyway however makes sense in a way), or at least that's the sense I get with him snooping around outside Sakura's house.  All in all Shinji about as first boss as they come, like the training boss you fight that's only slightly more menacing than their scrub minions.  I mean he essentially lost his servant off camera.  One of the areas I've continued to enjoy this series over it's animated predecessor is that the cast as a whole shows a lot more personality and to date it has yet to take itself too deathly seriously, though some gags I could have done without the obligatory megane guy being tricked into taking his shirt off and covering up his pecs while blushing, but at least this show knows where to draw the line unlike Prisma Illya.  I'm sure the fujoshi went "Kyaaaaaa" but considering I'm not one of those I kind of just figured so at least the tactic worked.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on August 04, 2015, 12:19:42 PM
10:  Well Rin won me over a little bit more this episode by yet again rejecting Archer and his latest "you've gotta be an ice cold pragmatist to be a mage" spiel.  I love how this guy cites Caster as some sort of ideal partner to work with, as if that's the kind of ally she could possibly work with.  If ever someone has essentially telegraphed "I'm going to betray you" by just his general behavior and the kinds of things he says and the way he treats others with zero respect it'd be Archer.  The guy continues to pretty much be an unlikeable douchebag who either seems to have totally misread Rin's personality and values or is just trying to force the ones he's accumulated onto her little by little and it's kind of unfortunate that Rin is saddled with him and will probably have to waste another command seal or two before all is said and done.  The fight with Caster no Master expectedly doesn't go well because he's more than capable of taken on all our plucky heroes by himself with casters magic buffing before Shinji awakens to his projection power and is able to fend him off.  One thing I continue to find amusing is how often this franchise or at least the ufoTABLE/Aniplex renditions of it seems to go out of it's way to try to make Saber look weak or at least that's how it comes across.  Outside of what I remember from the Fate route and one fight in Fate/Zero it's like she's either always getting outclassed or held back somehow.  Granted she's nerfed because of Shirou's shitty magic or something but it's a shame if kind of a running theme and she's probably the character whose belief system and overall demeanor I identify most with yet it feels like the franchise is always trying to go out of it's way to reject or shit on, or at least Zero really felt that way and this series really hasn't brought her back up to the level where she was before that show got underway or dare I say even Fate Route where I felt her character was given a lot more due.

I also find it kind of amusing how the reason Shirou doesn't seem to realize his actual potential is in projection is because he took Kiritisugu's advice and focused purely on strengthening up.  Why does that not surprise me in the slightest that that guy would suggest something like that which may have worked out better in his own war since they were all about that sort of thing and the quickest possible brute strength /w backstabbing line to the goal approach?  No time for allies or having a personality, just gotta kill all the others and take the prize.  In any case what have we learned about taking Kiritsugu's advice on literally anything Shirou?  Obviously nothing since he seems determined to follow in the guys self-destructive footsteps, just hopefully he find a way to be smarter about it.

Anyway I remember whenever Fate/Zero liked to wax about the whole you need to be cold as absolute zero and just run over everything and anyone in your path to succeed in this war thing whenever people tried to resist such a notion it rarely ended all that well for them so there is banked internal logic in this universe for such a notion as far as I'm concerned which doesn't bode well for Rin who has as I said leveled up a bit this week from the sort of comic relief character I've mostly found her to be.  She's a Type B tsundere through and through, but neither stupid (she had the sense to leave Archer at home so he won't get near Caster, since she knows he'll try to pull some bullshit) nor is she a complete asshole pragmatist like Archer wants her to be and neither is Shirou so far and boy could Fate/Zero have used more characters like that on it's "protagonist" side.  I still don't know why she's such a revered character within the fandom just yet other than her appearance and the whole Zettai Ryouiki thing, but she's definitely an enjoyable one to watch at least, though again I could say that for just about every major character compared to the ones in zero.  Light years ahead in terms of personality and me wanting to see them succeed at their goals, particularly since they like taking the hard path and trying to stick true to their more optimistic ideals which is a massive handicap though probably not the given death sentence it was in Zero.

One other thing I notice about this show compared to Zero is there seem to be a lot more meaningful connections between the main cast (not just mentioning how they seem to talk about things with each other that aren't mainly just about the plot and showcase actual personalities instead of just muttering philosophy), the masters and their servants.  Saber and Taiga were familiar with Shirou's adopted father figure who is familiar with Rin from school as they both are Shinji, Sakura, Issei and the evil teacher.  Rin is familiar with Kotomine and everything just feels more connected in terms of how personal it is.  By comparison it was a lot easier for Kiritsugu to be Mr. Ice Cold Tin Man and just scheme and back stab his way through his grail war because his opponents were the likes of a crazy guy living in a sewer, a douchebag mage professor he didn't really know, a student he didn't really know, Captain Suffering Kariya who was his own undoing by not following the internal logic of that story very well and was ****ed from the start and eventually Kotomine who was the only other master he forged any sort of connection or rivalry with or whatever you want to call their relationship which to this day I still don't really understand other than Kotomine got the last laugh cause reasons.  Have I mentioned how much I hated that ending before and the sorts of themes and ideas it tried to promote?

In any case yeah more familiarity with each other gives this story the potential for a more human struggle feel as opposed to strictly just a struggle of ideas and what I still hold to be an advocation for nihilism as a final solution of the kind Gilgamesh and Shinji seemed to be waxing about near the end of the episode.  RAWR too many human scum that are beneath me and need to be thinned out or some other such villainous babble.  The two really do feel like an if not perfect match at least one that makes sense.  Also giving that guy to the biggest asshole in the whole show doesn't really catch me as a surprise as it's fittingly unjust. 

Hopefully the things I hated about Zero don't start to rear their ugly head any more as Gilgamesh and what I see as the hedonistic nihilism he brings into the story starts to become more of a factor.  Literally every time this character becomes an active force in a Fate story is where I've felt it just completely loses it's appeal to me since what I like about it are the different ideals and heroic spirits it brings into the mix and how they play off each other, not the power struggle against some narcissistic douchebag with a way more boring fighting style than literally every other character in the show.  I also continue to hope this series is at least a partial rejection of the failings of people like Kiritsugu and Kotomine and that not everything is utterly hopeless as destructive and misery inducing as the Grail War is.

Anyway closing in on the last episode of the first cour this series has been doing pretty good balancing itself so far for me which isn't easy since I've had enough experience with it now to realize there are some characters I like a fair bit and some characters I absolutely just loathe to the very core of what makes up their existence and belief systems among the major cast members and little has changed over the routes and various prequels and side stories in that regard other than I've gotten an even worse impression of Kotomine and Kiritsugu by far, though Gilgamesh was slightly more tolerable in Zero since he was only 50% of a narcissistic douchebag whose power is lame instead of 100%.  The scary thing is we're getting dangerously close to the point in this route where things pretty much started going downhill with the Fate route and the UBW movie which is pretty much just around the time of the Caster and Berserker fights, the latter of which I know is after this one.  Really I just kind of expect things to go to shit as soon as the Berserker fight is over and I have to deal with Kotomine/Gilgamesh and their bullshit, but I hope against hope that this time might be different.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on August 04, 2015, 09:38:59 PM
11:  This might actually be one of the best episodes of the series to date, though it probably had a lot to do with that it focused entirely on characters I actually like and find interesting and none of the ones I don't.  Both Rin and Saber had some good moments with Shirou and came to understand his philosophy better and I can say I kind of like both of them at this point though Saber has always been a bit more interesting to me somehow.  Anyway a lot of people seem to dislike episodes in the series like this or not find them as engaging, but I actually find them way more engaging than much of what we get in Zero or even chunks of this show for character interaction because they showcase so much more personality (Taiga is still largely useless) and just show that these are more or less people.  I can't stress enough how much more interesting it is to watch Shirou as a character and his interactions compared to Kiritsugu, I know I keep coming back to that but it's just such a stark difference and a total game changer.  The cast is a lot easier to relate to and their philosophies to understand and even though the arguments over this can sometimes really take over a scene it never feels like it's browbeating you with one over the other quite as much as it felt like with Fate, merely having the characters present them at appropriate moments.  I guess whether you agree or disagree with Archer would depend on what your definition of a Hero of Justice and saving yourselves and others is.  I think that's the best way they could have presented that scene and left it off at for now.

So far this has kind of been the show I thought I would be getting when I first started to give this franchise a try but so far it has yet to live up to but there's still another 1 hour long episode and cour to go and still plenty of time for Gilgamesh to undue all the good that has been done here.  God knows his introduction to the franchise has harbored it souring on me 2 times now.  I kind of hope his screen time if any is kept to a minimum or non-existent in the hour long finale.   :-\
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on August 05, 2015, 05:38:19 PM
12:  I'm actually not really sure why this episode needed to be an hour long other than it would make it an unprecedented thing for a cour of an anime to have 3 hour long episodes (though technically one of them was a TV special).  In particular I didn't really enjoy the first half with more of the core trio as much because it didn't seem to add anything new to the dynamic compared to the last episode, it was just kind of a date episode.  As kind of amusing as the idea of Saber with glasses on is I don't think much of anything in particular would have changed if they had just rolled with a half hour finale and the events of the second half.  Rin also seemed to be a bit more back to her comic relief self a bit this episode as well though that could just be the subject matter involved with the date episode.  The look of the show was also a little bit less like it's usual self as well, with lots more of the cost cutting techniques I've seen this series largely avoid up to this point like the old show still images of scenery or peoples feet to avoid having to animate the complexity of a persons mouth flap.  I had heard this is around the point that the show was starting to fall a little bit more behind schedule (leading eventually to the growing legend of God Eater) and no doubt the staff was grateful to be going into hiatus for a few months to try to catch up.  Hopefully  they didn't front load this show too much with all of these hour long episodes and early skirmishes and it doesn't end up affecting things later on in the second cour too much, though it'll still probably look above average.

Things pick up when Shirou has to confront Caster holding Taiga and where his ideals are put to a pretty big test.  Again I just cannot fathom how people would prefer a guy like Kiritsugu to Shirou here.  Kiritsugu put in the same situation I just figure would go so what to Taiga's situation and let her die or shoot the hostage or something like that and would possibly even grudgingly respect the underhanded play on some level, Shirou is basically like go **** yourself while everyone else is standing around looking helpless and pretty much says exactly the kinds of things that are on my mind as to why such an alliance would never work and why she's an evil bitch and just isn't having any of it.  He's not going to give up on things and is going to look for a way to save Taiga at that and while he's at it he's going to say how things really are and not brood about it either.  I think this guy knows more about what he's signed up for than he's let on before, in reality he might actually be the most committed of all of them.  I really appreciate this guys optimism and steadfast commitment to his beliefs and that there are always solutions beyond just sacrificing others in a straight line to your goal like virtually every other character in this franchise is always harping on about as the only way and which Zero seemed to really want the viewer to believe was the only way.  He's a real breath of fresh air as far as masters go.  What I don't get though about Caster are two things.  One is that it just seems rather convenient that she can proclaim herself untouchable to Saber (yet again saber being made to look weak when it really counts) because she's somehow siphoning all this power off of the cities inhabitants.  You people could at least you know give it a shot or come up with something, that's where Shirou seems to be heading with all of this.  Also this idea that she could summon the grail without needing to conclude the grail war using a certain amount of energy.  Where is this all coming from and why could nobody else have tried something similar in the past grail war or even right now if there's a workaround to it's supposed golden rule of there can be only one.  This franchise confuses me with this sudden revelations sometimes.  I guess we'll have to take her word on it that these are the new rules.

Caster's ability to just take over Saber seemingly permanently with just one stab of her Noble Phantasm is pretty ridiculous and seemingly overpowering, but then virtually every ability that doesn't belong to Saber feels this way.  Sometimes I wonder where they come up with some of these Noble Phantasm powers as some just seem entirely overpowering while others are just kind of meh powers.  Again other servant besides Saber and Rider (I remember hers being some sort of unicorn she could fly around on) seem utterly overpowering to me like Caster with her power siphoning from the city, rule breaker being able to steal saber, her being able to summon other servants and buff her master to the point where he can fight with Saber and knowledge of magic that apparently the overseers of the grail war are oblivious too, Berserker with his multiple lives and overwhelmingly strength and endurance, Archer and his draw literally any weapon and fire a super powered arrow across the entire city and Gilgamesh and his whole litany of BS.  By comparison Lancer with his unblockable but actually blockable attack, Rider and her unicorn, Assassin and his ??? (as far as I can tell this guy just sucks and never really does anything other than get pushed around by Caster or Gilgamesh depending on the route) and Saber and her current uselessness seem like afterthoughts, granted I know Saber has a DankuKogaKen and shield of invulnerability hidden away somewhere.  By the way the water effects looked kind of weird in this whole scene which is odd because the show gets a lot of practice working on CGI water effects with how nearly every scene involving windows has rain coming down on them.

For some reason I find Archer's comments to Rin after the fact kind of amusing.  He kind of has a point, what gave Rin the impression at all that he would be rooting for Saber considering how much of a fanboy he's been for Caster virtually this entire show so far and how much he's always been at odds with Saber and Shirou, there supposed allies.  Wonder when this guy is just going to get on with it and betray them lol, certain things about this show do at times feel a little drawn out and obvious, other times they completely blindside you of the blue, mostly when it comes to the rules of engagement in the grail war.  Again I think it's the matter of this episode really not needing to be an hour long, particularly with regard to the first scenes and the recaps Rin gives on Archers behavior.  It's sort of like...yeah I know, guys kind of a snake and anyone could tell where he stands by now, it kind of worries me that Rin just seems to be figuring it out and how casual she is about it.

Nothing in particular to say about the cast at Ryuudou temple other than to reaffirm my assertation that this series has some characters I like or find interesting/fun to watch (Shirou, Saber, Lancer, Rin, Shinji, Berserker and Archer who has grown on me a bit with his steadfast dedication to being a scheming douche albeit a partially conflicted one as it turns out) characters I'm indifferent too and find boring, one dimensional or just kind of under-explored (Illya, Assassin, Caster, Kuzuki, Rider, Sakura) and ones I loathe and who kill scenes for me really fast (Kotomine, Taiga, Gilgamesh and Kiritsugu) and it comes into play here.  What motley crew of bland and/or evil personalities, hopefully the second cour doesn't spend too much more time on them or they get better development than just scheming and evildoing.

Well I enjoyed this cour a lot more than I thought I would as I've said.  I'm not as madly in love with it as others not being of the VN reading persuasion typically but it makes for a good show if a little drawn out at times though not as much as it could be.  Overall I find it a vast improvement over even Fate/Zeros first cour.  Better animation quality, better characters, better pacing and story line flow, BETTER PROTAGONIST (huge) and just a hell of a lot easier to get into since it isn't hitting you up with all these factions and brooding pragmatist characters I have absolutely no context for.  No browbeating with idealogy, just presenting of it amidst all the other goings on since unlike Zero even as some parts feel drawn out there's always a sense moving forward and a sense of development as opposed to things largely moving around until it's time for every character I like to get ****ed over by every character I hate and unjustly and lamely so at that (boy was that a total buzzkill in that shows second cour, please don't do that UBW, I can ask that much of you right?).  I think I'm probably going to end up giving this an 8/10 and downgrading what Zero's first cour from an 8/10 to 7/10 and probably Zero's second half to a 6/10 since this really put a lot into perspective for me about the franchise.

By the way LiSA's rendition of the pretty good theme song Disillusion I liked a lot from Deen's fate route of the series is horrendous.  I've never liked her before and just find her to be a wailer who doesn't understand that louder isn't necessarily better (it would be okay at least if her power notes actually sounded good instead of just like the wailing of a banshee) that can really sing so much as just shriek through her songs and this does nothing at all to alleviate it, especially in comparison to Kenji Kawai's rendition of the song where the singer just...well sings it and it's quiet pleasant song.  I actually couldn't wait to turn it off the second the credits actually came up so yeah thanks LiSA for somehow managing to ruin a great song.  Ugh, I'm just praying that the deal with Sony Music Entertainment doesn't mean I'm going to have to listen to her for the new Gundam series or Garnidelia for that matter.  Please just be like anyone else in their stable, Galileo Galilei being my preference.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: Marid King on August 05, 2015, 05:42:51 PM
...Oi, if this is an insinuation that you're looking for a book deal, I won't be won over.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: KS on August 05, 2015, 06:59:12 PM
...Oi, if this is an insinuation that you're looking for a book deal, I won't be won over.

Yeah I don't know sometimes when I post the thoughts just come flowing out in a stream of conciousness thing and before I know it I have an essay.  That's just kind of how it goes I guess.  I'm aware it's a little errr...unusual.
Title: Re: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV)
Post by: thanosmat on August 06, 2015, 10:33:47 AM
12:  I'm actually not really sure why this episode needed to be an hour long other than it would make it an unprecedented thing for a cour of an anime to have 3 hour long episodes (though technically one of them was a TV special).  In particular I didn't really enjoy the first half with more of the core trio as much because it didn't seem to add anything new to the dynamic compared to the last episode, it was just kind of a date episode.  As kind of amusing as the idea of Saber with glasses on is I don't think much of anything in particular would have changed if they had just rolled with a half hour finale and the events of the second half.  Rin also seemed to be a bit more back to her comic relief self a bit this episode as well though that could just be the subject matter involved with the date episode.  The look of the show was also a little bit less like it's usual self as well, with lots more of the cost cutting techniques I've seen this series largely avoid up to this point like the old show still images of scenery or peoples feet to avoid having to animate the complexity of a persons mouth flap.  I had heard this is around the point that the show was starting to fall a little bit more behind schedule (leading eventually to the growing legend of God Eater) and no doubt the staff was grateful to be going into hiatus for a few months to try to catch up.  Hopefully  they didn't front load this show too much with all of these hour long episodes and early skirmishes and it doesn't end up affecting things later on in the second cour too much, though it'll still probably look above average.

Things pick up when Shirou has to confront Caster holding Taiga and where his ideals are put to a pretty big test.  Again I just cannot fathom how people would prefer a guy like Kiritsugu to Shirou here.  Kiritsugu put in the same situation I just figure would go so what to Taiga's situation and let her die or shoot the hostage or something like that and would possibly even grudgingly respect the underhanded play on some level, Shirou is basically like go **** yourself while everyone else is standing around looking helpless and pretty much says exactly the kinds of things that are on my mind as to why such an alliance would never work and why she's an evil bitch and just isn't having any of it.  He's not going to give up on things and is going to look for a way to save Taiga at that and while he's at it he's going to say how things really are and not brood about it either.  I think this guy knows more about what he's signed up for than he's let on before, in reality he might actually be the most committed of all of them.  I really appreciate this guys optimism and steadfast commitment to his beliefs and that there are always solutions beyond just sacrificing others in a straight line to your goal like virtually every other character in this franchise is always harping on about as the only way and which Zero seemed to really want the viewer to believe was the only way.  He's a real breath of fresh air as far as masters go.  What I don't get though about Caster are two things.  One is that it just seems rather convenient that she can proclaim herself untouchable to Saber (yet again saber being made to look weak when it really counts) because she's somehow siphoning all this power off of the cities inhabitants.  You people could at least you know give it a shot or come up with something, that's where Shirou seems to be heading with all of this.  Also this idea that she could summon the grail without needing to conclude the grail war using a certain amount of energy.  Where is this all coming from and why could nobody else have tried something similar in the past grail war or even right now if there's a workaround to it's supposed golden rule of there can be only one.  This franchise confuses me with this sudden revelations sometimes.  I guess we'll have to take her word on it that these are the new rules.

Caster's ability to just take over Saber seemingly permanently with just one stab of her Noble Phantasm is pretty ridiculous and seemingly overpowering, but then virtually every ability that doesn't belong to Saber feels this way.  Sometimes I wonder where they come up with some of these Noble Phantasm powers as some just seem entirely overpowering while others are just kind of meh powers.  Again other servant besides Saber and Rider (I remember hers being some sort of unicorn she could fly around on) seem utterly overpowering to me like Caster with her power siphoning from the city, rule breaker being able to steal saber, her being able to summon other servants and buff her master to the point where he can fight with Saber and knowledge of magic that apparently the overseers of the grail war are oblivious too, Berserker with his multiple lives and overwhelmingly strength and endurance, Archer and his draw literally any weapon and fire a super powered arrow across the entire city and Gilgamesh and his whole litany of BS.  By comparison Lancer with his unblockable but actually blockable attack, Rider and her unicorn, Assassin and his ??? (as far as I can tell this guy just sucks and never really does anything other than get pushed around by Caster or Gilgamesh depending on the route) and Saber and her current uselessness seem like afterthoughts, granted I know Saber has a DankuKogaKen and shield of invulnerability hidden away somewhere.  By the way the water effects looked kind of weird in this whole scene which is odd because the show gets a lot of practice working on CGI water effects with how nearly every scene involving windows has rain coming down on them.

For some reason I find Archer's comments to Rin after the fact kind of amusing.  He kind of has a point, what gave Rin the impression at all that he would be rooting for Saber considering how much of a fanboy he's been for Caster virtually this entire show so far and how much he's always been at odds with Saber and Shirou, there supposed allies.  Wonder when this guy is just going to get on with it and betray them lol, certain things about this show do at times feel a little drawn out and obvious, other times they completely blindside you of the blue, mostly when it comes to the rules of engagement in the grail war.  Again I think it's the matter of this episode really not needing to be an hour long, particularly with regard to the first scenes and the recaps Rin gives on Archers behavior.  It's sort of like...yeah I know, guys kind of a snake and anyone could tell where he stands by now, it kind of worries me that Rin just seems to be figuring it out and how casual she is about it.

Nothing in particular to say about the cast at Ryuudou temple other than to reaffirm my assertation that this series has some characters I like or find interesting/fun to watch (Shirou, Saber, Lancer, Rin, Shinji, Berserker and Archer who has grown on me a bit with his steadfast dedication to being a scheming douche albeit a partially conflicted one as it turns out) characters I'm indifferent too and find boring, one dimensional or just kind of under-explored (Illya, Assassin, Caster, Kuzuki, Rider, Sakura) and ones I loathe and who kill scenes for me really fast (Kotomine, Taiga, Gilgamesh and Kiritsugu) and it comes into play here.  What motley crew of bland and/or evil personalities, hopefully the second cour doesn't spend too much more time on them or they get better development than just scheming and evildoing.

Well I enjoyed this cour a lot more than I thought I would as I've said.  I'm not as madly in love with it as others not being of the VN reading persuasion typically but it makes for a good show if a little drawn out at times though not as much as it could be.  Overall I find it a vast improvement over even Fate/Zeros first cour.  Better animation quality, better characters, better pacing and story line flow, BETTER PROTAGONIST (huge) and just a hell of a lot easier to get into since it isn't hitting you up with all these factions and brooding pragmatist characters I have absolutely no context for.  No browbeating with idealogy, just presenting of it amidst all the other goings on since unlike Zero even as some parts feel drawn out there's always a sense moving forward and a sense of development as opposed to things largely moving around until it's time for every character I like to get ****ed over by every character I hate and unjustly and lamely so at that (boy was that a total buzzkill in that shows second cour, please don't do that UBW, I can ask that much of you right?).  I think I'm probably going to end up giving this an 8/10 and downgrading what Zero's first cour from an 8/10 to 7/10 and probably Zero's second half to a 6/10 since this really put a lot into perspective for me about the franchise.

By the way LiSA's rendition of the pretty good theme song Disillusion I liked a lot from Deen's fate route of the series is horrendous.  I've never liked her before and just find her to be a wailer who doesn't understand that louder isn't necessarily better (it would be okay at least if her power notes actually sounded good instead of just like the wailing of a banshee) that can really sing so much as just shriek through her songs and this does nothing at all to alleviate it, especially in comparison to Kenji Kawai's rendition of the song where the singer just...well sings it and it's quiet pleasant song.  I actually couldn't wait to turn it off the second the credits actually came up so yeah thanks LiSA for somehow managing to ruin a great song.  Ugh, I'm just praying that the deal with Sony Music Entertainment doesn't mean I'm going to have to listen to her for the new Gundam series or Garnidelia for that matter.  Please just be like anyone else in their stable, Galileo Galilei being my preference.

The answer to most of your doubts are in the visual novel. The mechanics of magic and the status of the servants and their noble phantasms is something that anime does not explain satisfactorily. To explain them, the anime would have more infodumps than already have. I suppose in Japan, they expect fans to already know these fine details (and they do I think).