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The Nihon Review Topic Discussion => Anime => Topic started by: Pebble on July 09, 2013, 04:40:05 AM

Title: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Pebble on July 09, 2013, 04:40:05 AM
Or  'No Matter How I Look at It, It’s You Guys' Fault I’m Not Popular!'

1:

This is this season's tailor-made-for-loners show. Its not really trying to be anything like last season's Oregairu, and I can respect that, but its quite often just too obvious its going for a "Aww, look how sad she is" reaction. There is, nevertheless, a good deal of relateable stuff, like Tomoko planning her escape route from Mcdonalds(Ok, yeah, I've done that), getting tongue-tied at the Mcdonalds counter(that too), getting pissed off at the cool crowd(and that), and her brother's reaction to her walking into her room(haven't done that, but its happened to me).
Come to think of it, I had a pretty terrible first year of high school.

I also like the visuals, especially the lighting effects, which remind me of Humanity has Declined and TLOZ:The Wind Waker.
And oh my god that OP. Havent lolled that hard at one since Chuunibyou's ED. That, Tomoko netsurfing and "I'm coming soon" were easily the three funniest things this episode.

What I really want to know is why ImperialX hates/hated this so much.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on July 09, 2013, 10:24:59 AM
What I really want to know is why ImperialX hates/hated this so much.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say ImperialX doesn't like using MC's suicidal depression for comedy. Which is understandable, but we can't help find funny what we find funny and I mostly- Didn't find MC threatening suicide exactly funny to me- found this show funny. Reminds me of NHK slightly. Although NHK (obviously) treated things more seriously then Watamote seems to be doing.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Kiniest on July 09, 2013, 10:43:31 AM
1: That wasn't too bad. It's an interesting perspective to look at this character from. It's got an interesting tone, and, to be honest, it doesn't oversaturate our requirement to empathize with the MC. But using her suicidal depression as humor is less funny than using Dog and Scissor's died and became a dog as humor. This could be a good show, nonetheless. I'll set the stakes at around a 6.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Pebble on July 09, 2013, 11:53:09 AM
Quote
At times Haganai would put the viewer in the awkward position of not knowing whether something was intended as comical, or just sad considering the semi-serious subject matter at hand.
I just picked that up from the Reckoner's haganai review because it suits the suicide gag perfectly.

As a joke, the suicide joke is, in and of itself, not really funny; it's only mildly amusing if viewed as Tomoko blackmailing her brother. As something serious, it's held back because I don't think anyone would say it out loud to anyone, even/especially a close family member. Though thoughts like these leak out in actions somehow.
The way I say it makes it sound like a fail in both departments, and yes, it is in some senses, really stupid, but its also fitting. Social isolation generally makes people vicious, apathetic and deliberately politically-incorrect. I think Tomoko ponders suicide with as much anger as she does with genuine depression or a desire to emotionally lacerate herself further.
Another thing that I've noticed happens is that people tend to lose a sense of privacy. Privacy is, in a sense, just a facade; it stems our desire to portray a specific image of herself to others. In isolation, there no outside audience to portray an image to, just yourself. The only person you can play your role in front of is yourself, and Tomoko, being herself, cannot hide the socially despicable elements of her life from herself. The interesting thing is that she is in a position where society's demands can still reach her(difficulty level/good ends&bad ends), so she has a yardstick to judge herself by. Oregairu's Hikigaya, in contrast, had already become aware of such social yardsticks and had divorced himself from them. So in her state, not only is she depressed, she's also amoral and has somewhat low self-esteem. Thats why she sees nothing wrong with contemplating suicide out loud, and does it that easily.
She's also had plenty of time to f*** herself up, if the bit about her middle school experience is any indication.

What's the point of all of this? I dont know. Maybe that the entire haganai-esque tone of the show emphasizes Tomoko's self-judgement. Its even more evident in the ED's lyrics.

I'm probably reading waaaay too much meaning into this show right now.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on July 09, 2013, 01:16:54 PM
1:

It's Watamote. The whole point of this series to make you cringe as you watch Tomoko get herself into painfully awkward situations, and then afterwards have a huge circle jerk about how relatable it is.

I really like how metal music started playing when Tomoko was trying to think of how to get past her schoolmates in the WcDonalds. The visuals and audio in general are big improvement over the manga so this is a pretty stellar adaption so far.

As for the suicide joke, it's important to note that Tomoko isn't actually suicidal or depressed, and the point of the joke was that she was trying to pressure her brother into talking with her. She has zero social skills so that behavior is certainly justifiable within the context of the setting. I personally didn't find it all that offensive and didn't care much for it either way, but suicide isn't really something that should be used for humor regardless so YMMV I suppose. (edit: Well, suicide humor is a bit more complicated of an issue than "it should never be used," but yeah it's a tricky subject.)
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on July 10, 2013, 01:03:57 AM
1:

That was utterly charming in a black comedy kind of way.  This is kind of like watching Working! but from the perspective of Takanashi's morbid older sister instead.  I found myself completely sympathetic to Tomoko, even though she brings all of it on herself with her delusions of reality.  Relating anime?  Yeah, I think I can relate to quite a bit of this.  I think we've all had those times when we had expectations for something approaching fantasy levels only to have reality smack us right upside the head.  To her credit, she's still trying, she's just doing it wrong. 

The PROBLEM with this series is painfully obvious from the start.  Watching Tomoko struggle to become what she wants to be (which is something I'm not even sure she knows) will get old after a while.  Eventually she has to make progress, or the author has to throw her a bone (or both), or it will just get boring.  Relating is one thing, but after a while, a lack of progress is not endearing anymore, but annoying.

I would say something about her deliberately trying to become a slut, but for some reason these characters appeal to me.  I mean, this isn't the first time I've fallen in love with the plight of a would be cockgoblin (http://www.nihonreview.com/forum/index.php?topic=1386.0).  At least she's not a prude, though I question whether her lack of a desire for purity is driven by her own wants or by her fear of not meeting that non-popular requirement.  Meh, either way, get laid, girl.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: SQA on July 10, 2013, 02:41:52 PM
I'm not sure she wants to be a cockgoblin, but she wants affirmation and validation.  The fastest way to get a little bit of that, for a younger female, is to put out.  Though, considering the relationship between early sexual experience, life-outcomes and mental stability, it's also one of the worst options available.  Further, given all of her time with Otome games, I feel like they'll take the series in a direction where she would actually reject a "solid" suitor that isn't drop dead gorgeous.  (Think of it like being used to incredibly sweet candy, then eating one that isn't.  It isn't appealing because you're used to super-sweet things)   Plus, well, they could mine some hilarious comedy from that.

Still, this is definitely dark comedy, as all of these problems are due to her own creation.  Which, oddly enough, makes it so I can't really relate.  If I was ever being pathetic in high school, I'd realize it, stop, and then change the situation.  Which is what you *should* do.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on July 10, 2013, 04:24:58 PM
If I was ever being pathetic in high school, I'd realize it, stop, and then change the situation.  Which is what you *should* do.

Well that's an awfully condescending way to put it. I agree that that's what someone should do, but it's not nearly as easy as you make it sound. It takes awhile to develop social skills and get over a certain mindset, especially if you have social anxiety holding you back like Tomoko does.

That being said,
as of chapter 42 of the manga, Tomoko barely does make any progress with her problems. So in that case you could certainly berate her for not trying hard enough or approaching her situation from the wrong direction, but like I said it takes awhile to develop social skills and get over a certain mindset. I personally still enjoy the manga, but I can easily imagine the story losing its charm more quickly in the format of 20 minute episodes rather than 10-20 page chapters.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: SQA on July 10, 2013, 05:17:08 PM
Don't get me wrong, I liked ep 1 and I think I'll like the series.  I just can't relate, but that's not being condescending. 

Most problems, short of some physical and Acts of God, are self-created.  Which means the first issue is always "stop being stupid", then the next is "don't continue being stupid".  These are the basis of introspection and self-correction.   Tomoko is hilarious, in the dark comedy way, because she lacks either of those.  Regardless of how brutally shy she comes across, she's actually still a massive narcissist.  The inability to adjust to the "world as it exists" is all on her and her family.   That's what is going to make the series hilarious & depressing & leave you wondering if you're wrong for watching this.  All at the same time.  It's the Personality Train Wreck.

This is also probably why it'll hit a cord with a lot of people.  Modern society is based off living in the "unreality" of the Age.  Tomoko is just a version of that thinking taken to the extreme.   But she's also female, so it plays on the natural protective instincts of the male watchers.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on July 10, 2013, 05:26:13 PM
Quote
This is also probably why it'll hit a cord with a lot of people.  Modern society is based off living in the "unreality" of the Age.  Tomoko is just a version of that thinking taken to the extreme.

Yep.

Quote
But she's also female, so it plays on the natural protective instincts of the male watchers.

Not sure on this one, tho.  Yeah, there's a certain amount of sympathy that we can all have for someone who is just sad, but I think the main thing is that she provides a perspective look at being a "loser" (if you will) from a female point of view.  For males, this kind of lets them think that they aren't alone, and that women struggle with this, too.  For women, it might be easier to relate.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on July 10, 2013, 06:31:22 PM
Don't get me wrong, I liked ep 1 and I think I'll like the series.  I just can't relate, but that's not being condescending.

I do agree with your points; my issue is with how you worded it as "I'd realize how pathetic I am and then change the situation," which makes it sound easier than it actually is. Which comes off as condescending particularly because you haven't been in the situation yourself. Though I suppose I might just be misunderstanding what you mean exactly because of wording.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: SQA on July 10, 2013, 07:36:28 PM
Don't get me wrong, I liked ep 1 and I think I'll like the series.  I just can't relate, but that's not being condescending.

I do agree with your points; my issue is with how you worded it as "I'd realize how pathetic I am and then change the situation," which makes it sound easier than it actually is. Which comes off as condescending particularly because you haven't been in the situation yourself. Though I suppose I might just be misunderstanding what you mean exactly because of wording.

I can see where you're coming from, but if my "troubles" in life were as easy as Tomoko's, I'd be praising to Lord to high heaven.  I've relearned to walk... more than once due to a medical issue outside of anyone's control.  And while I'm doing quite "well" now, a list of everything I've gone through would make Tomoko's troubles look exactly as they are: self-inflicted. 

Tomoko is a Narcissist.  (See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism#Traits_and_signs).) It just happens to be merged with either severe social anxiety or simply no social skills.  (I'll leave the Jury out on the clinical significance of her issues)   While she realizes there is a problem, she simply cannot or refuses to adapt to the problem in a functional manner.  Everything still has to follow under her control.   This is how you can have people in real life with massive social anxiety problems and massive egotism at the same time.  They aren't mutually exclusive.   Tomoko just happens to be funny, when put together.  It's a very tight line to

But, I can see why a lot of people can relate.  Up until the teenage years, most people in modern societies are highly protected from consequences of life AND from the "world as it is".  After the shift in brain physiology that happens between 12 & 14, you have a young adult that has more than likely not touched base with the brutal parts of the world now attempting to make it in schools that are much closer to the real world, yet they're now always removed from quite a lot of the previous protections that existed.   This is why coddling children is so terrible on them.   But, almost everyone gets over this.   There can, however, be something of a time delay and it's not an uncommon experience for the entire Freshmen year of high school to operate, in a much toned down manner, to the way Tomoko sees the world. 

Because of that shift that happens, it opens up a way for a lot of people to relate to the character of Tomoko.  It's just a fine line to write around, though.  You have some sympathy, but you can never push it too far, as this is a self-inflicted issue.  At the same time, you can't beat her down too hard or the creator comes off as sadistic.  Fine line, that.

I'll close by pointing out that I am very, very different from the norm.   I was made fairly aware of that by age 8, when I started having adults ask me for advice on important topics.  The basics of Wisdom is "don't be stupid; if you're being stupid, stop".  Just stating your actions out loud, to yourself, will point out about 80% of the problems.  I have a brutally honest streak, in person, and that's why I can't relate to Tomoko.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: ImperialX on July 10, 2013, 09:59:46 PM
What I really want to know is why ImperialX hates/hated this so much.

I've actually been avoiding this thread while browsing the forums, and I wasn't aware of this until Sorrows Neptune actually pinged me on Twitter. (https://twitter.com/SorrowsNeptune/status/355003073950793730) xD

As Sorrows Neptune has already said, this show is meant to make you cringe. I still haven't seen the first anime episode (because I do intend to uphold my reputation of never dropping anime I start), but based off what I've read from the manga, I admit it's extremely effective in doing so. In fact I'd go far as saying the entire series is more tragic than pretty much every tragedy I have ever seen. So why do I hate this series, and why do I not understand why anyone would? In my perspective there are two ways to enjoy this series. Let's take a look, shall we?

The first way is that you're actually a totally normal person in real life, having never experienced depression or social awkwardness to this degree. You will look at this series at a descending way, since Tomoko is the epitome of "loser" as everyone has already pointed out. You will watch this show and then laugh at how sad she is, since WataMote is very much a very sane World in the eyes of a rather insane individual who is obviously suffering extreme cases of both narcissism and schizoid PD and needs to be seeing a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist.

The second way is that you're actually a person who has suffered from similar cases of social awkwardness, depression or psychological disorders. It's possible that you can somewhat relate yourself into the shoes of Tomoko and find solace in the fact that you're not alone, and the writer of this series understands you. From what I've seen off 4chan and 2ch, this is actually one of the main appeals of this manga. I'm shocked to find the number of people online who say that they can actually relate to the protagonist. This is a shocking revelation to me because she seems so over-written to a point that I didn't expect a shred of realism in the series. Apparently I'm wrong, so colour me surprised.

Look at these two reasons, and now think about The Big Bang Theory. To be honest, the comparison between the two shows (despite completely opposite moods) is shockingly similar. The Big Bang Theory is a show that tries to appeal to you in two ways. You're either a normal person who has no idea about geek culture, and then you're laughing at the cast for being socially awkward. Alternatively, you're a person who is a nerd, and you feel you can relate to Howard or Sheldon every time they talk about World of Warcraft. WataMote works in the same way.

But don't you think something is wrong here? I guess this is why I don't like The Big Bang Theory either.

Think about it. Both kinds of enjoyment for these kinds of shows are very cruel in nature. For the first type of enjoyment, you're generating enjoyment out of another individual's utter failures. This is somewhat tolerable in The Big Bang Theory since you're just laughing at people who are "geeks" (that's not very nice either, but it's not as bad as WataMote). If you enjoy WataMote in the first way, you're literally finding enjoyment in a person who is suffering a genuine problem many people in real life are suffering from: social awkwardness and schizoid personality disorders. It's taking a genuine problem that's affecting many people in the World, and ridiculing them, making a humour from such a real problem. I can't enjoy something like this.

For the second type of enjoyment, my gosh, I definitely think this show isn't good for you. This show is ridiculing a character with your very problems! Every time I laugh at a joke in The Big Bang Theory, I feel like I'm laughing at myself or my friends. The Big Bang Theory isn't a positive representation of us geeks - it is ridiculing us. WataMote is the same except I can't personally relate to Tomoko - but apparently many people can. If you can relate to the character, how in the World can you enjoy this? It's like having the worst kind of bully and you're suffering from masochism. I've always thought that this wasn't a real problem because I thought the writing in WataMote is too unrealistic to be relatable, but to my surprise people are saying that it is on message boards everywhere. If this is a case, how can showcasing and laughing at a character who is a representation of such a real problem in society be funny? And how can the people who find it relatable find it enjoyable? It's a complete contradiction.

Overall I just can't imagine why this show can be enjoyable, no matter how I approach it.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on July 10, 2013, 10:18:04 PM
I think you touched on the key difference between BBT and Watamote.  BBT is, even when trying to make the geeks look positive, doing so in such a stereotypical anti-geek way that it really ISN'T being positive about geek culture at all; and when it wants to be down on geek culture, it is REALLY down on geek culture to the point of almost declaring geeks unfit to live.  Thankfully, they don't really glorify "normalcy" or "cool" people either.  Most of Penny's boyfriends have been outright dicks with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.  Penny herself really is the lynchpin to the series.  Though she gets lost in a lot of things, over the seasons, she's managed to bridge this gap to create a balanced environment for everybody.

Except Sheldon Cooper, but even he's improving with the help of Amy Farah Fowler.

WataMote, though, is so exaggerated in everything, and NOTHING goes right for Tomoko to the point where there can't be anybody who relates to it.  She is intentionally the extreme outlier on not just social awkwardness, but bad luck.  Again, she brings a lot of it on herself, but that doesn't mean fate has to always give her an extra dose of disappointment.  This is where the author is keeping our sad sack of a girl sympathetic.  She is the ultimate Woobie.  And yet, because of her own faults (like Sheldon) there's quite a bit about her that you can't feel sorry for.

However, to say that nobody can ever relate is a bit much.  Yes, she's an extreme, but even if nobody has actually been in ALL of her exact situations, some of us have experienced one or two of these things, even if they're not on the same intensity.  So there's nothing wrong with noticing yourself in her shoes a couple of times, I think.  You have to also consider that for every three or four people who have had a situation like hers, there's probably one or two trolls or outright liars trying to "fit in" (which is ironic).  Add in the anonymity issue, and you really don't know who is relating to what.  So I wouldn't take 4chan / 2ch as a baseline to anything.  There are a lot of people who can go part and parcel with Tomoko, just not everything.

Finally, laughing at her is fine in two different ways.  If you are someone who relates, but still laughs, you're not really laughing at her so much as yourself for your own situation.  As they say, we all look back on our pasts and laugh.  Some more than others, I would suspect.  It is also cathartic to see your own embarrassment played out in front of you, and done to such a degree as to no longer be realistic.  It makes you feel better because you can now write it off as high comedy.  For the other people who are laughing at the misfortunes of a pathetic girl, she's not real.  There is nobody being harmed by laughing at Tomoko.  She doesn't have feelings, a heart, blood, bones, or a brain.  Much like people's obsessions with the 2d world, the unreality of it allows for a cognitive dissonance in values.  Also, some people are assholes.

The thing is, Imperial, you never know how the animated adaption is going to effect you until you watch it.  Still framed manga panels are helpful, but there is something more touching about not just seeing something with the illusion of life through animation go about it's business, but also understanding the work put in by the seiyuu to bring Tomoko's awkwardness to a new level.  You might find yourself impacted more with this medium than the printed one.  This may not be a good thing to you, though.  Consider this, also, as a reader of the manga you provide a perspective of someone who can give a critique of the differences and / or the increased or diminished effect that WataMote would have on you.  Think about it.

*Turns soapbox into kindling*
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on July 10, 2013, 10:29:40 PM
I don't know why I like this show anymore. Despite having social anxiety issues myself, I find it quite difficult to relate to Tomoko because of her narcissism (which I realized after SQA's explanation,) and I usually abhor comedies which rely on a character's failures and misfortunes to derive humor (which is also why I dislike a lot of American comedies.)

Literally the only reason I read/watch Watamote is so it can make me cringe. It's like one of those ugly paintings where it being ugly is the whole point of it and you were never supposed to enjoy looking at it in the first place...except Watamote is actually supposed to be enjoyable. I don't know why I like this show anymore.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: SQA on July 10, 2013, 11:49:25 PM
I do like Munch's "The Scream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scream)" quite a lot, but I wouldn't want to see it daily.  In many ways, that's a lot of what WataMote's appeal will be.  There is some relatable aspects to the character, as we've all had anxiety of some form, but the "humor" can really only be of the Dark form.  We're either laughing "at" Tomoko or "at" her situation.  While most comedy has a cruel aspect to it, there are limits that test how cruel it can be. 

I should note that while some of The Big Bang theory is funny, I don't find most of it very humorous.  Sheldon-types, in real life, are just fodder on the intellectual level.  I'd actually have an enjoyable time crushing his sense of reality.  But I'm strange.  (Also, it wouldn't be too hard; that level of egotism isn't all that difficult to break)

On the narcissism aspect, I'd love to take credit for the insight, but I was having a discussion with someone (on another forum) several years ago and it came up.  They had a friend that was almost Hikikomori-like but also the best ego on the planet.  It exists as a subset of a few other things in personality development, but that combination just happens to be one of the weirdest you come across, at first brush.  After some thought, you realize why they can exist, but it doesn't seem like they should.  (You think more Social Anxiety + Paranoia)   If WataMote spends a lot of time using the narcissism for humor, however, it's going to get old & cruel pretty fast.

@Sorrows:

I mentioned back a few comments about the relearning to walk bit.  Obviously, it's a lot more complex than that, but one of the skill sets that has come along with the work is, well, manipulating receptor archetypes in the Brain and outer Nervous System.  I'm willing to chat back and forth about the subject, as I don't want to derail the thread.  Toss me a PM if you're interested.  (Don't worry all, everything is legal!  Hell, pretty much everything is on Amazon, you just need to know what you're up to)
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Pebble on July 11, 2013, 03:47:32 AM
The basics of Wisdom is "don't be stupid; if you're being stupid, stop"

Pathetic/stupid/cool/geek/unpopular: very often highly socially determined ideas(Or very possibly I want to think of them as thus just so I can consider them arbitrary and ignore them.).
Ok, so what does that mean? It means that pathetic or stupid are terms defined by their relation to real people on whom this label has been put. This varies from society to society, religion to religion. In addition, since these terms are very abstract notions, there are no limiters on the extent to which you can 'confine' what these terms mean to you. The only thing that really sticks is the negative connotation(though not necessarily) and some kind of relation to the generalised, vague social notion of what pathetic or stupid means. So what stupid means is vague.
Now, if you're divorced/have divorced yourself from these notions of what these terms mean, your thoughts can very well follow this train: "I'm being stupid. I'll stop being stupid. But how do I know once I've successfully stopped being stupid?" If, to that last question, you have no answer, or your answer boils down to something derogatory like 'what other people tell me is stupid', you're screwed. Even better, since there is never any solid meaning to what these mean, there is no solid barrier preventing yourself from associating yourself with these terms and trapping yourself in the characteristic circle of stupid misery which you were trying to escape.
If you find an answer you like, and you're satisfied with, good for you, but unless you inject a dose of doubt into your answer, you're doing introspection wrong. You're just making rationalisations so you can end on the conclusion of "I'm happy".
I think the entire aforementioned argument in all its pointless glory can be adapted to accomodate most other descriptions, like 'being pathetic'.
Conclusion to this long rant: None.
My opinion: People don't need to be happy. Often, people don't want to be happy. In fact, people watch Drama just to make themselves unhappy.

That just happens to be my way of thinking about the schadenfreude debate running around in this thread. Its also why I can't decide what to think about Aku no Hana

I'll close by saying that this is probably the most awesome thread I've ever seen and we're only one episode in.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: KS on July 11, 2013, 11:48:50 AM
This was kind of refreshing in a way.  It's like they took the stock loser hikkikomori male lead and made it a girl instead and while some things remain the same the entire dynamic is totally changed up.  I find this girl highly amusing at the same time as she's down on her luck and just can't get a break though one has to wonder just how much of it is self-inflicted.  It didn't feel like anybody was going out of their way to ignore or treat her shabbily so much as she's just so obsessed with trying to fit in that she ends up sabotaging herself like at the end of the episode.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on July 16, 2013, 02:10:12 AM
2:

And here is why I can't feel too sorry for Tomoko.  Her friend changed, for better or worse (the friend doesn't seem to be particularly fond of it), but stays the same person she always was.  This allows our heroine a moment of respite getting to enjoy what it is like to actually have someone to be with, someone who likes her for who she is, someone to talk to, and to lean on, if necessary.  But when Tomoko finally blurts out what has been building up inside of her for weeks (that her high school life sucks, but she's trying), instead of being a good friend back, reciprocating the trust, Tomoko literally tunes out when the friend starts relaying her issues.  Why?  Because the friend's issues reveal that her social life in high school is beyond Tomoko's, and she can't deal with that.

This opportunity was huge for our heroine.  It was a way to relating to someone else having troubles, even if the troubles aren't the same.  Troubles AREN'T the same, and if you're only looking to relate with people who do have those kinds of issues, you're going to be lonely a long time.  Meanwhile, if you have a support structure, or at least someone to talk to, don't ****ing lose that opportunity just because you don't think they're on "your level" anymore.  That's shitty.

She brings it on herself, which is, ironically, what her "Yandere Boys" CD is trying to tell her.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Fumoffu!! on July 16, 2013, 06:21:53 AM
2:

I cannot handle this show. I'm out.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Pebble on July 16, 2013, 11:35:31 AM
2:

Tomoko. You. Are. A. Dumbass. There is no excuse for this. Tomoko wants to be popular. Tomoko refuses to pick methods that result in her becoming popular. Thats the very definition of irrationality; the one they teach you in the first class of every humanities course.

Why she chooses to reject Yu is beyond me. I'm willing to forgive her not examining herself since I don't believe that really helps. But the choice to zone out as soon as the thought hit her that Yu was living her ideal of the perfect highschool life just tells me that all she wants to do is have someone to look down on or that Tomoko simply cannot swallow the notion that its her fault she is unpopular, even in front of her closest friend. Now, I'm not going to say that I am or have been above thinking either of these. But Jesus, woman, if you cant swallow your pride enough to be a bit opportunistic, you're screwed. Even I can do that.

Either Tomoko decides she doesn't want popularity in school and looks for other social circles, or she sucks it up and asks Yui for advice.
This episode with Yu tells me that neither is going to happen. This show is going down the frustration route.

EDIT: Dammit Tomoko, if you could accept your brother becoming popular and run to him for help, whats wrong with Yu?
As for the rest of the episode, not bad. I didn't even mind the crazy fantasizing scenes. Although...
I cant help but feel that the specific material of the fantasies doesn't sit too comfortably alongside her extreme narcissism. I can make sense of her imagining herself in a sexually dominant position, but this? Wut? Why? I can't be sure, since there's no shortage of strange, apparently contradictory desires out there, so I'll just ask you guys if you think if it makes sense for her to have a rape fantasy yet still be so narcissistic.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Thot on July 16, 2013, 12:14:31 PM
Why? I can't be sure, since there's no shortage of strange, apparently contradictory desires out there, so I'll just ask you guys if you think if it makes sense for her to have a rape fantasy yet still be so narcissistic.
"They want me so much they rape me." Although, unless I missed something, that wasn't rape. More like extreme possessiveness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Yandere). Which is a fetish distinct from rape. But it works the same way here.

Why she chooses to reject Yu is beyond me.

You don't get the idea of "Finally I can talk with someone who's just like me again" -> "Well ****, she isn't."? It's like a blind person talking with someone then the other person suddenly goes "man, that rainbow over there sure is pretty" - "FFFFFFFF".
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Pebble on July 16, 2013, 12:42:36 PM
Why? I can't be sure, since there's no shortage of strange, apparently contradictory desires out there, so I'll just ask you guys if you think if it makes sense for her to have a rape fantasy yet still be so narcissistic.
"They want me so much they rape me." Although, unless I missed something, that wasn't rape. More like extreme possessiveness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Yandere). Which is a fetish distinct from rape. But it works the same way here.
The violence in her fantasy isn't directed towards others. Its directed towards herself. Tomoko is the one who gets beaten up and raped in the fantasy, not anyone else, and there are multiple people "who want to use her before they dispose of her", so Tomoko isn't being possessive or yandere.

There are also no indicators of social barriers in the fantasy, so the extent of the desire she wants to be the object of isn't in the forefront at all. You can't measure how much they want her without setting a scale, like "they want me enough to risk prision or execution". And come on, even the voice acting is indicative of her submissive position.
Gender equality and feminism debate imminent.

You don't get the idea of "Finally I can talk with someone who's just like me again" -> "Well ****, she isn't."? It's like a blind person talking with someone then the other person suddenly goes "man, that rainbow over there sure is pretty" - "FFFFFFFF".

No, see, but Yu is still very much like Kuroki. She still likes anime. She still watches it. Both of them are interested in boys. They can hold a conversation. Their interests align, its just that Yu is successful but Tomoko isn't.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Thot on July 16, 2013, 01:05:07 PM
Why? I can't be sure, since there's no shortage of strange, apparently contradictory desires out there, so I'll just ask you guys if you think if it makes sense for her to have a rape fantasy yet still be so narcissistic.
"They want me so much they rape me." Although, unless I missed something, that wasn't rape. More like extreme possessiveness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Yandere). Which is a fetish distinct from rape. But it works the same way here.
The violence in her fantasy isn't directed towards others. Its directed towards herself. Tomoko is the one who gets beaten up and raped in the fantasy, not anyone else, and there are multiple people "who want to use her before they dispose of her", so Tomoko isn't being possessive or yandere.

There are also no indicators of social barriers in the fantasy, so the extent of the desire she wants to be the object of isn't in the forefront at all. You can't measure how much they want her without setting a scale, like "they want me enough to risk prision or execution". And come on, even the voice acting is indicative of her submissive position.
Gender equality and feminism debate imminent.
Actually, why are we putting this into spoiler tags. Anyway, you're not aware that there's a fetish for yanderes? You did watch or at least hear about Mirai Nikki, right? That's a prime example. The viewers, that is.
It's just that here it's a male yandere instead, as far as the audio goes.
And oh, you meant that rape scene, I somehow forgot. Well, same deal. Being masochistic and narcissistic are by no means mutually exclusive. Although otherwise completely different, I guess you could draw a certain parallel to Nana and Kaoru there.
Also, getting raped implies you don't have to take any actions to make it happen. It's kinda like the knight in shining armor, only you get the black knight instead haha.


Quote
You don't get the idea of "Finally I can talk with someone who's just like me again" -> "Well ****, she isn't."? It's like a blind person talking with someone then the other person suddenly goes "man, that rainbow over there sure is pretty" - "FFFFFFFF".

No, see, but Yu is still very much like Kuroki. She still likes anime. She still watches it. Both of them are interested in boys. They can hold a conversation. Their interests align, its just that Yu is successful but Tomoko isn't.

It's like misery loves company, except in a more literal sense.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: SQA on July 16, 2013, 02:06:50 PM
You don't really even need a debate about gender dynamics or feminism with the rape fantasy issue, all you need to do is unwind the term "rape" in front of it and it makes sense.

If you go back to about pre-1990, almost all of the "bodice ripper" female-near porn fantasy novels were like that.  It was classically called "ravishment fantasy" and taken about as seriously as those books were actually written.  (Which is, not much)  There was a movement to get rid of that type of writing some years ago, but the basics never actually go away.   Like most other fantasies, it's inwardly focused.  It still fits in with Tomoko's narcissism, as the fantasy is to be so desired by *attractive* Men that they would go that far to "take" a Woman.   Think Helen of Troy.   It's a perverse sense of validation and desirability.  Nothing more; nothing less.   

I should also point out that the protagonist in Otome Games being raped is actually a something of a staple of that genre, as we get reminded every time there's an anime adaptation. 
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: KS on July 16, 2013, 08:52:35 PM
2:

And here is why I can't feel too sorry for Tomoko.  Her friend changed, for better or worse (the friend doesn't seem to be particularly fond of it), but stays the same person she always was.  This allows our heroine a moment of respite getting to enjoy what it is like to actually have someone to be with, someone who likes her for who she is, someone to talk to, and to lean on, if necessary.  But when Tomoko finally blurts out what has been building up inside of her for weeks (that her high school life sucks, but she's trying), instead of being a good friend back, reciprocating the trust, Tomoko literally tunes out when the friend starts relaying her issues.  Why?  Because the friend's issues reveal that her social life in high school is beyond Tomoko's, and she can't deal with that.

This opportunity was huge for our heroine.  It was a way to relating to someone else having troubles, even if the troubles aren't the same.  Troubles AREN'T the same, and if you're only looking to relate with people who do have those kinds of issues, you're going to be lonely a long time.  Meanwhile, if you have a support structure, or at least someone to talk to, don't ****ing lose that opportunity just because you don't think they're on "your level" anymore.  That's shitty.

She brings it on herself, which is, ironically, what her "Yandere Boys" CD is trying to tell her.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this.  The title of the show is basically an irony unto itself.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on July 16, 2013, 11:28:14 PM
2:

Hmm... Something tells me ths will be the most talked about anime of the summer... So that would be a yes. I did find this episode hilarious. And yes, I did feel bad for finding it hilarious.......... Hey! Stop looking at me like that!

On a more serious note, several forumers and bloggers have comented that this is all pretty realistic stuff (Of course it is exaggerated for comic effect and because it is anime). And I'll just have to take their word for it and not let the more serious stuff hamper my critical feelings. I'm looking for the funnies and I get it. I just don't really see Tomoko as stupid either just so we are clear.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Thot on July 22, 2013, 11:30:05 PM
3:

Well this was pretty brutal.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on July 23, 2013, 12:40:01 PM
3:

Never before has an anime made me feel so bad for laughing at it... And yet I just can't help myself. This is just hilarious stuff approaching the realm of brilliance IMHO... A 7/10 so far.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: KS on July 25, 2013, 10:09:06 AM
It took me three episodes to notice that the intro to this show is actually a rare modern example of a theme song that is actually written for and about the show itself rather than just a tie-in by some popular group.  I kind of like that...more of that again please Japan.

Anyway I think Tomoko is my favorite female character of this season though that's a dubious achievement no doubt.  She's such a delightful asshole that hates the whole damn world and everything it stands for so much that she apparently doesn't want to be a part of it despite her protests to the contrary and honestly has the most hilariously bad solutions for social problems that could easily be resolved by giving it an honest shot. 

Anyway I'm starting to learn never to bet against Kuro/Black when it comes to female anime characters.  Apparently it's the key to everything that is delightfully amusing and morose.  I'd say stoic too, but then Tomoko is kind of the polar opposite of that, a subversion if you will who instead of adopting an it is what it is attitude like a lot of recent Kuro types seems to be forever asking, "what did I ever do to deserve this?"  As it continues to turn out the answer seems to be more than she probably will ever realize.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Pebble on July 25, 2013, 11:05:24 AM
3: This show is overdoing it.

The sentiment is all there and I like it. Tomoko's actions, as long as they don't affect the plot or her situation, are well written and relateable. Its backed up by the audiovisual department very well and I like all of that too. The only, and biggest problem I have is that this anime is actually aspiring to become "everything goes wrong: the anime", and its perfectly willing to turn Tomoko into a caricature to do that. Tomoko refuses help from Yu because how else will she be alone. Tomoko never gets her handouts because how else will she be alone. Tomoko has absolutely zero friends in her school, neighborhood or even the internet because how else will she be alone. Tomoko doesn't seem to play MMOs because how else will she be alone.(With the online disinhibition effect at work, she should be able to function, if only barely, in an online society.)
Its doing a terrible disservice to the "alienation" theme of the show by constricting it. This show needs to like let Tomoko enter the 'social entry process' if it wants to go anywhere, and leave disappointed with real society if it really wants to preserve this identity thing it's got going on. I'm not saying it should pump sugar into the show; it can be pessimistic all it wants, but the way Tomoko heaps meaning and hope onto that portrait of hers in the last episode, yet doesn't ever process the thought that the umbrella was left behind by the boys in this episode just tells me its being pessimistic for the hell of it. That irritates me to no end because I genuinely like Tomoko for her arrogance and bitchiness.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: KS on July 25, 2013, 11:39:38 AM
3: This show is overdoing it.

The sentiment is all there and I like it. Tomoko's actions, as long as they don't affect the plot or her situation, are well written and relateable. Its backed up by the audiovisual department very well and I like all of that too. The only, and biggest problem I have is that this anime is actually aspiring to become "everything goes wrong: the anime", and its perfectly willing to turn Tomoko into a caricature to do that. Tomoko refuses help from Yu because how else will she be alone. Tomoko never gets her handouts because how else will she be alone. Tomoko has absolutely zero friends in her school, neighborhood or even the internet because how else will she be alone. Tomoko doesn't seem to play MMOs because how else will she be alone.(With the online disinhibition effect at work, she should be able to function, if only barely, in an online society.)
Its doing a terrible disservice to the "alienation" theme of the show by constricting it. This show needs to like let Tomoko enter the 'social entry process' if it wants to go anywhere, and leave disappointed with real society if it really wants to preserve this identity thing it's got going on. I'm not saying it should pump sugar into the show; it can be pessimistic all it wants, but the way Tomoko heaps meaning and hope onto that portrait of hers in the last episode, yet doesn't ever process the thought that the umbrella was left behind by the boys in this episode just tells me its being pessimistic for the hell of it. That irritates me to no end because I genuinely like Tomoko for her arrogance and bitchiness.

This is sort of true.  I think it's the way the show is trying to strike a balance between black comedy and light commentary on the social awkwardness issues in Japan.  The over the top extreme example Tomoko is necessary for a lot of the comedy to work to it's full extent, yet it also gets somewhat in the way of depicting the social situation for her as it makes it hard to see how things can possibly improve at this stage.  It's almost like she needs a shock or epiphany so huge and so blindingly obvious that she can't ignore it in order to make any sort of progress and if it can't come from random acts of kindness, her only friend or her family it's hard to say what spark is going to be.

I remember in another black comedy I watched Welcome to NHK the spark came from the main character finding himself totally cut off and alienated from any form of financial support but that's a different circumstance and this is more the social game for teenagers as opposed to a post graduate slump and considering she already has nothing in the way of strong support from anyone other than maybe Yu I'm not sure what she has to lose that could snap her out of her largely self-imposed funk.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Marid King on July 28, 2013, 07:46:21 AM
1-3:

I rather like this show. And sure the MC is an incurable, self defeating outcast, but just because she's a static figure doesn't mean we can't enjoy watching her, ala Garfield or Family Guy.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on July 31, 2013, 07:50:38 PM
4:

Now if you want to talk about being overwritten, I think Tomoko wanting to be molested would be that. Of course, I'm not a girl... or Japanese for that matter, so maybe I'm wrong. In that case why? Irregardless, it wasn't that funny to begin with. Whole episode wasn't really that funny too (Except for Tomoko ripping up her 1,680 yen panties and Yuu being weirded out).

But Mr. Kuroki gets best anime father of the season award (Not that that's a tough position to make). Although, I am now insanely curious about what he thinks about... THAT.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on July 31, 2013, 10:16:42 PM
Actually, I kind of liked the train molesting bit, because it is a perfect microcosm of the stupidity of otaku perceptions of reality.  Here we have a girl who, probably because of her obsessive otakuism, believes that train molestation is flattering.  It is normal for this to happen in certain eroge, and is often fetish fuel for porn.  Considering her fantasy earlier about being treated like a possession by a couple of would-be suitors, this whole thing is appropriate to her character.  She is COMPLETELY IGNORING the negative aspects of it, which EVERY OTHER GIRL CHARACTER, including her best friend, is mentioning repeatedly.  When she finally gets herself into that situation, she realizes that her mindset about the whole thing was misguided and the terror of being abused by some stranger is real to her.  Even if it turns out to be a misunderstanding, for that one moment she got a ****ing crotch face full of reality.  Her second conversation with Yuu about being molested is less enthusiastic, even if the situation was nothing more than an utter embarrassment for her.  The lesson was learned (I ****ING HOPE), and maybe some viewers will realize that this shit isn't something to glorify, but revile.

The rest was quite funny.  The bullcrap at the beginning was borderline autoerotic asphyxiation, which killed Bill I might add.  The idea you can control your dreams is imbecilic, of course, which the episode points out.  The second half was more of what I have been waiting for, where our "poor" heroine uses her friend's experience to her advantage.  In a weird bit of irony, Tomoko is too self conscious to wear the new undies, which is really her whole problem.  She's simply not willing to take the kinds of shortcuts other girls use to attract men.  This isn't a bad thing.  Everybody has to find their own way.  Regardless, she'd have to get over her SAD before she could worry about attracting mates.  The last bit with dad was quite touching, even if Tomoko never realized it.  Your parents are always going to be your parents, after all.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Marid King on August 01, 2013, 01:50:01 AM
4:

After seeing (skipping through) this episode I felt so bad for tomoko that I went to read the manga to check if she ever gets any friends.

she doesn't :( :( :(
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: SQA on August 01, 2013, 02:09:41 AM
Actually, I kind of liked the train molesting bit, because it is a perfect microcosm of the stupidity of otaku perceptions of reality.  Here we have a girl who, probably because of her obsessive otakuism, believes that train molestation is flattering.  It is normal for this to happen in certain eroge, and is often fetish fuel for porn.  Considering her fantasy earlier about being treated like a possession by a couple of would-be suitors, this whole thing is appropriate to her character.  She is COMPLETELY IGNORING the negative aspects of it, which EVERY OTHER GIRL CHARACTER, including her best friend, is mentioning repeatedly.  When she finally gets herself into that situation, she realizes that her mindset about the whole thing was misguided and the terror of being abused by some stranger is real to her.  Even if it turns out to be a misunderstanding, for that one moment she got a ****ing crotch face full of reality.  Her second conversation with Yuu about being molested is less enthusiastic, even if the situation was nothing more than an utter embarrassment for her.  The lesson was learned (I ****ING HOPE), and maybe some viewers will realize that this shit isn't something to glorify, but revile.

The rest was quite funny.  The bullcrap at the beginning was borderline autoerotic asphyxiation, which killed Bill I might add.  The idea you can control your dreams is imbecilic, of course, which the episode points out.  The second half was more of what I have been waiting for, where our "poor" heroine uses her friend's experience to her advantage.  In a weird bit of irony, Tomoko is too self conscious to wear the new undies, which is really her whole problem.  She's simply not willing to take the kinds of shortcuts other girls use to attract men.  This isn't a bad thing.  Everybody has to find their own way.  Regardless, she'd have to get over her SAD before she could worry about attracting mates.  The last bit with dad was quite touching, even if Tomoko never realized it.  Your parents are always going to be your parents, after all.

Quality with the bolded part.  Haha
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Pebble on August 01, 2013, 02:06:22 PM
4: Well, this is a nice change. Father doesn't go ballistic at the end. That's very nice. Very nice indeed.

maybe some viewers will realize that this shit isn't something to glorify, but revile.
I like this way of thinking about this show. Watamote is frightening.
Only, the thing is that it's incredibly easy to say "I have nothing to learn from this show; I am nothing like Tomoko." and avoid this train of thought altogether(I'm guilty of this). Sure, that's often just BS, but the show's really over-the-top presentation of everything really just makes it easier to disconnect yourself from Tomoko. If there are moments where Tomoko is just being 'normal', its much, much harder to convince yourself that Tomoko is just a caricature, and the message really takes form.

Right now, I can only relate with Tomoko's actions, not with her reasons for doing things and the reasoning behind it. Those haven't even been approached.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on August 07, 2013, 09:45:21 PM
5:

Favorite Moment: Tomoko tries to be a expressionless character. Tomoko fails. Turns out been more expressive is better. Tomoko says "Screw you."

Oh and Tomoki. You poor kid. One day you are going to snap and that will definitely not be pretty... And what was up with that... ending...
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on August 07, 2013, 11:35:58 PM
Parody ending for this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv8NEA6-gRY).  The joke, of course, is that Tomoko is doing it solo.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on August 13, 2013, 12:40:26 PM
6:

I knew it. Tomoko does look really cute without those bags under her eyes. Just a shame she has really, really bad luck. And I am not exactly sure what I am suppose to take out of that ending. Is it suppose to be a good thing that Tomoko was actually able to eek out enough words to stay on the rooftop with those middle schoolers even though it was for something completely perverted?
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: KS on August 17, 2013, 02:00:18 PM
6:

I think what I appreciate most about this show so far is that like Daily Live of High School Boys it's a slice of life comedy kind of show that's not at all afraid to poke fun at the typical tropes of slice of life comedies by essentially portraying it from the opposite side of the spectrum.  For DLoHSB it was a simple gender flip and having the male perspective for a change, for this show it's swapping out your typical daft bishoujo lead for a character you'd never expect to see an SoL show focus on, the kind of average looking loser who doesn't automatically have everything handed to her like a Yui Hirasawa and instead of being overly saccharine, sweet and idealistic is morose, bitter and has pretty much given up hope of ever being accepted by her peers.

And you know what, it's way funnier than almost any other SoL comedy I've seen since DLoHSB as a results.  It's amazing what can be accomplished when you break formula even slightly and are willing to laugh at the way things work in anime high schools from an outsiders perspective instead of having everything played straight and thus kind of boring for the umpteenth time.  I mean lets be honest 9 times out of 10 Yuu would have been our lead character for a show about high school girls and I can only imagine how boring a 12 episode series would be from her perspective with her making the observations about life and how everything about high school life is so great and all that's needed to make your life better is to just bleach your hair, dress sluttier and then you get to eat cupcakes at the end of the day or something.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on August 20, 2013, 09:56:16 AM
7:

My god! The moment Tomoko's mom accidentally hears the recording. I can't. I just can't! My gut!
Also the childhood videos. Tomoki's reaction was worth the price of admission.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on August 21, 2013, 07:31:19 PM
Yeah, that was the only time I've actually cringed watching this show.  I think we've all had a similar situation.  Not so much as your own voice recording being spliced into porn, but definitely doing something that your parents would find weird being exposed to one of them.  Not much you can really say about it.  Just gotta kinda die in a corner somewhere.

But, the intentional juxtaposition with the home videos was what made it great.  To Tomoko, it was just an embarrassing situation.  To mother, it was realizing that her children in those beloved tape recordings are gone gone gone...
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on August 27, 2013, 04:39:50 PM
8:

I thought things couldn't get worse for Tomoko when her Mom found out her recording session..... Turns out I was stupid to even think that. That just burns. Not only did she probably mess up her chance to have another friend, but now she's being pitied by her 13 year old cousin.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on August 31, 2013, 02:49:18 AM
8:

Apparently that whole bit with the boy and the umbrella back before was anime only, so I found this little bit to be that much more interesting.  I seems like the director is playing with Tomoko a bit.  Apparently he can't quite stand her having absolutely no hope whatsoever, so he made this boy come back for another round of Tomoko exposure.  The situation still turned out the same as it did in the manga, but I just find the whole thing fascinating.  This is, to date, the longest conversation that she would have had with a stranger of the opposing sex.  I mean, she had to beg him and explain to him the situation.  That alone constitutes a conversation does it not?  Shame that her self accomplishment involves this, and thus makes it worse.

Nevermind, I take it back, the director must HATE Tomoko and makes her suffering worse.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on August 31, 2013, 02:56:49 PM
8:
Apparently that whole bit with the boy and the umbrella back before was anime only, so I found this little bit to be that much more interesting. 

Actually I checked. The umbrella thing was part of the manga. Chapter 5 and 15.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on September 03, 2013, 09:16:38 AM
9:

I kid you not. The last half of this episode depressed me to the point of tearing up. Tomoko is such a bitch and yet you kind of can't help but feel sorry for her.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on September 03, 2013, 05:04:12 PM
I don't know.  I can easily not feel sorry for her.

Originally, I wanted this show to throw the kicked dog a bone.  For a lot of the situations early on, Tomoko was mostly a victim of circumstance and her own misconceptions.  I don't want that anymore.  Now I want Tomoko to wake the **** up and get over herself.  Now she's a victim of her own stupidity, stubbornness, and jealousy.  She is no longer a pitiable character to me.  She's repugnant.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on September 03, 2013, 05:41:26 PM
I don't know.  I can easily not feel sorry for her.

Originally, I wanted this show to throw the kicked dog a bone.  For a lot of the situations early on, Tomoko was mostly a victim of circumstance and her own misconceptions.  I don't want that anymore.  Now I want Tomoko to wake the **** up and get over herself.  Now she's a victim of her own stupidity, stubbornness, and jealousy.  She is no longer a pitiable character to me.  She's repugnant.

From what I've seen and heard about -I'm no expert on this- Tomoko seems to suffer from Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD) and depression (But mostly SAD) and it isn't as simple as saying to someone to get over it. Well, you can say that, but chances are that won't end pretty. For her defense, when she finds her brother's diary, she realizes she's been a bitch, hence why she leaves that cicada shell on his desk, because in her own twisted (and sad) way she sees that as an apology. This leads to the meteor shower seeing scene, where she laments why she is alone, which also subtly reveals that she knows why she is alone. That for me what was made her sad. Is she going to wake up next morning and change? Hell no. But I don't think its because she's stupid. She's just wired that way. And it is not like I wasn't hating her for a the first half of this episode, I was. It also doesn't help that her parents seem to be in denial and her only other family member who knows how she really is, Tomoki, is to young to deal with this sh*t.

In a nutshell though, I guess you can say that makes Watamote a really good show, since it can create this kind of discussion.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on September 03, 2013, 09:33:01 PM
I understand the SAD part, and that is what is screwing her up with making any kind of headway with strangers.  Her defense mechanism for her own ineptitude is to blame everybody else (hence the show's title).  But that really doesn't excuse her home life at all, nor does it excuse her blatant lack of common sense when it comes to expectations.  In the former, her mother is pretty damned frustrated with how lazy her daughter is.  The videos and snippets we've gotten to see of young Tomoko makes me wonder where the hell everything went wrong.  She used to be a rather normal little girl.  I know people change when puberty hits, but she has completely forgotten, or utterly dismissed, what she used to be.  Yeah, she finally comes to a realization that she's been a **** to her brother, but that has nothing to do with her mental disorders.  Her ability to operate at home is fairly normal, except she takes her sibling rivalry, coupled with her own social problems, to a rather hefty extreme.

I've said this before, but she basically abuses her support structure, or doesn't bother to use it at all.  Yuu-chan is rarely used to actually help her deal with her issues.  The one time she asked her friend for some advice, it turned out badly, which is too bad.  But how many times has she reached out to Yuu for advice or help?  More often than not, her envy of her friend gets in the way.  Her inner monologues about Yuu are utterly crass, and it was only when she was fearing the worst (that their friendship was over because of HOW TOMOKO HAS BEEN ACTING) that she reflected upon her own callous behavior.

In fact, this entire episode was about Tomoko getting wake-up calls that she has been a terrible human being.  Though I am still not entirely sure she has made any kind of realization about how shitty she is to her own mother.  I know we all take our moms for granted, but Tomoko's level of immaturity towards her was appalling.  She even goes so far as to state, earnestly (thus, without any kind of attempt at being disingenuous), that her parents (read: mom) are still supposed to be taking care of Tomoko's room cleaning duties.  She's a high school girl, who wants the mature high school life, but can't be bothered to accept maturity at home.

As for the expectations part, she lives in fantasy land way too often.  She imagines that whatever she does will turn out to be some kind of anime / manga / VN trope infused spectacle with her as a fanciful center-stage star.  Then, when nothing goes the way she thinks, she gets so incredibly down that she just runs away from whatever she was doing.  She asked her mom for help in getting her a job involving cakes.  She was very adamant about cakes, because of her fantasies.  Reality hits her in the face, and she has nobody to blame but herself.  Then she just quits the job rather than keep at it to see if it will be any better later.  Sure, it isn't working within her version of reality, but that doesn't mean you can't experience things to try to make the most of it.  Hell, those coworkers just might be a source of wisdom for her to explore.  Does she take the opportunity?  Of course not, because her dreams are dashed.

Look, I get that Tomoko has problems, and they are easy to sympathize with, but she HAS to take steps on her own to get over these issues.  Even if she never develops any kind of social skills, she still has to improve her familial situation.  There's no excuse for being a dick of a family member.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Marid King on September 04, 2013, 01:58:17 AM
I've stopped viewing, but I'm not so sure I'd be as hard on her. Her parents cleaned her room for her; if you're not particularly sensitive or clever, your parents never correct your mistake, and you never meet enough people to find counter examples, stupid assumptions like this can form. For a somewhat different example, just look at some of the ridiculousness silly rich people get up to at times. For similar reasons, I can guess why she isn't making efforts to solve her personal issues; because she doesn't realize that they are the problem. Instead she focuses on what she wants and doesn't have, and honestly I think that's something most people are guilty of. It's not surprising that you might ignore opportunities, if you're blinded by ignorance or hubris, or are simply being dumb for the moment. Again, something that happens to me all the time. Tomoko might be near the worst end of the spectrum for all of these things at once, but from the episodes I watched and the manga chapters I read, I could easily identify the shadows of her thinking in the back of my own mind, and that's what made watching this series so gut-wrenching for me. I don't know how people who really have it together might view this, but that's my perspective.   

 

Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on September 04, 2013, 08:14:43 AM
And to add to that. I understand the Tomoko being a bitch thing. Because that's exactly what I felt about her in the first half. It's just that after seeing her at her most vulnerable wanting something (company) that she'll never get, that is where I start feeling sad. Or maybe one could see it as pathetic. Either way, there is some sort of empathy involved. And apparently in the manga she even contemplates suicide during the meteor scene (Which was cut for obvious reasons), so the ability to feel sad for her is even worse IMHO.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Pebble on September 04, 2013, 09:45:36 AM
Tomoko might be near the worst end of the spectrum for all of these things at once, but from the episodes I watched and the manga chapters I read, I could easily identify the shadows of her thinking in the back of my own mind, and that's what made watching this series so gut-wrenching for me.

That pretty much nails it on the head. I'm not too sure whether the show's decision to keep these as just shadows and keep Tomoko as the extreme end of all these things is helpful to the experience or not.

It makes it easier to distance yourself from Tomoko, however, that's because we find her so repugnant. Since in the very beginnning, its established that Tomoko has herself convinced that "I'm not like them(unpopular girls)", the moment you try to think "Im not like her(Tomoko)", you realise you're being just like her. The cycle continues.
Its an awfully cruel thing to do to a viewer, and its pretty damn unpleasant to be at the wrong end of it. Only, this unpleasantness isn't the same kind as the one Tomoko is experiencing, so while the experience is intense, its like shooting the wrong dartboard and saying you landed a bullseye on the right one.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Garuda on September 06, 2013, 05:09:56 AM
I just catched up with the show, and somehow, it reminds me of a mix between some aspects of Nisemonogatari and Kaiji. Anyway, I think it's good and pretty witty. The last couple of episodes were also a tad emotional.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on September 10, 2013, 12:59:30 PM
10:

Ah-hah! Look! People wanted Tomoko to suck it up and do something about her uneventful and depressing life and look what happens you monsters!! Okay... Joking aside (And that wasn't directed to anyone in this forum. Just referring to people in general) this episode just goes to prove my point. You can't help but feel sorry for Tomoko. Just way too hard not to...

And that has got be the most smooth transitioning into the opening theme ever.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Garuda on September 10, 2013, 07:45:01 PM
Yeah, the transition was great. But the episode wasn't as good as some others, even if it wasn't bad either. I especially liked the references to BR, Haruhi Suzumiya, Haganai and Picasso at the end, with the "unclear description".
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on September 11, 2013, 02:58:58 AM
10:

Thought this episode was rather boring, actually.  Makes me wonder if they're stalling because they don't want to get into anything major with the season coming to a close soon.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on September 17, 2013, 03:21:36 AM
11:

Okay, NOW I feel sorry for Tomoko.  In this episode she actually tried a couple of things.  While some bad luck fell her way, and while some of her motives weren't pure (at all), she was at least engaging people through efforts.  Her loneliness came through here much more than previous episodes.

And someone finally throws her a bone.  Or a balloon, as it were.  And a hug.  D'aww.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on September 17, 2013, 09:34:07 AM
11:

What was I saying again... Oh yeah! Tomoko. Hard to not feel sorry for her. That's it.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Sorrow-kun on September 18, 2013, 03:19:56 AM
Ep 11

Oh God, that ending was adorable.  Makes you think that maybe, just maybe, there is hope for Tomoko after all.  Or, at the very least, people who are willing to feel sorry for her.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on September 18, 2013, 12:29:35 PM
I think that already exists, SK.  Tomoko's cousin turns into this by the end of her episode, and then there were those two girls who were extremely reluctant to hand a job over to Tomoko.  I kept wondering about that particular scene.  I don't think it was just them creeped out by Tomoko's behavior.  They genuinely looked like it would be a REALLY bad idea to give this job to Tomoko.  It took her insisting to get them to agree, and even then they sent a couple of dudes to help her out.  The student council girl (voiced by Ai "Kafuka" Nonaka at that) figured out Tomoko rather quickly, and put that all together to throw her a bone, albeit anonymously.

The question mark I have is Yuu-chan.  I don't know if she's not aware of Tomoko's situation, or if she is and deliberately saying nothing so as to not make Tomoko feel worse.  She's still genuine friends with our heroine, and will never leave her side no matter how popular she gets at her new school, but I'm still unsure what she knows or thinks.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on September 24, 2013, 02:09:19 PM
12:

Why not just call the episode "Since I'm not popular... we don't really know how to end this one cour show, so **** it."
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: ImperialX on September 24, 2013, 04:20:19 PM
Why not just call the episode "Since I'm not popular... we don't really know how to end this one cour show, so **** it."

Does that mean I shouldn't start watching this?
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Garuda on September 24, 2013, 08:48:13 PM
12

The ending wasn't great, but definitely didn't fail. It was also rather hopeful, given the comment of Imae, Yuu running after Tomoko, and that she understood the futility of desperately seeking to be popular.

Overall it was a good anime, the first part was actually funny, and there was some smart content, for example with the demystification of clichés such as rape and other topics dealt with humor. The second part was certainly less funny, but it wasn't necessarily worse. It corresponded to a kind of fall that really portrayed the loneliness and suffering in which Tomoko was lost. It was more embarrassing, as with episode 7 when Tomoko met the Seiyuu, and then was caught by her mother. The last part was sadder and/or more emotional too.

Otherwise, I don't know if it's the best female performance in a leading role this year, but Tomoko's seiyuu was great, and the opening/ending were very cool and fitting. It's a 7/10 for me.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: Sorrow-kun on September 25, 2013, 05:29:25 AM
Ep 12

I think there are some things this anime could have done better (ending included), but the characterization of Tomoko was just incredible.  Here is someone who was just this utter failure as a person, who was often unfortunate, yet so much of her misfortune was self-inflicted, as well as selfish and egotistical... and yet you couldn't help but feel sorry for her.  Constantly.  Obviously Tomoko exists as a caricature of someone who is very deluded and self-centred... someone whose delusions have been allowed to fester due to her lack of human interaction and complete lack of self-esteem, but she doesn't feel that far off a particularly extreme case of social anxiety disorder.  The strained ties with families, the readiness to cut off potential friends before they get too close and see the real you, the general social awkwardness around strangers, the horribly skewed worldview... I'm sure all of us can sympathize with at least one or more of the issues Tomoko dealt with (rarely successfully) during this anime.

As sympathetic as I thought she was, I don't feel bad about laughing at Tomoko.  As the school of satire teaches us, sometimes the world gets so absurd and oppressive that laughing at something is the only reasonable way to deal with it.  But more often I found myself cringing at her.  In a sympathetic way, because I can easily see some of the worst aspects of myself in her.  I love that so much of her reminiscing in this episode turned into a massive session of self-cringing and regret.  I've done that occasionally too.

7/10 from me.  Easily the best thing Oonuma Shin has directed since ef - Memories.  Easily his best comedy too.
Title: Re: Watashi ga Motenai no wa dō Kangaetemo Omaera ga Warui
Post by: MCAL on September 25, 2013, 05:31:52 PM
12:

The ending wasn't perfect, but it was pretty consistent. Definitely reading the manga now.

I'd give this a 7/10 as well (And by this I mean it was a pretty consistent 7/10). Easily my favorite Silver Link show, not that there was much competition.

EDIT: I'd definitely give the award to Kitta Izumi (Tomoko) for best female seiyuu performance of the year. I can't imagine Tomoko is an easy character to voice, but somehow I feel that Izumi-san has always been nailing it.