The Nihon Review Forum

The Nihon Review Topic Discussion => Anime => Topic started by: SQA on April 12, 2013, 03:59:12 PM

Title: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on April 12, 2013, 03:59:12 PM
So, the major WTF? series of the season.

Let's recap:

- Sunrise series.
- NOT a Gundam "universe" set of series.
- Space Nazis.
- High school aged special agents... who suck at hiding the fact they're supposed to be high school students
- Big breats
- Large Cast
- Pathetic MC
- Genki girl osananajimi
- Interrupted confession?
- WAR!
- War suddenly happening at their school
- Why is there a secret research facility under a school?
- Oh yeah, we're on colonies that are setup as a Dyson Sphere, which is cool
- Dead? main girl
- Jump in the cockpit without thinking or knowing what to do!
- Someone needs to actually look at a screen rather than whine for 2 minutes
- Give up being human!
- Better check that EULA, it appears you gave up your humanity
- Victory!
- Live Streaming of combat
- Assassination!
- Vampirism?????


Okay, so... it's Gundam Wing + Gundam SEED + Code Geass + Hellsing Unlimited?   Oh, and the OP is freaking sweet.

This is SUCH a train wreck about to happen.  This should be glorious!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on April 12, 2013, 04:03:16 PM
Sweet Jesus, did they just merge Twilight and Gundam?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on April 12, 2013, 04:55:25 PM
Hopefully it's Hellsing and not Twilight, but it looks like it.

Or he's a Zombie.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on April 12, 2013, 05:37:42 PM
Hopefully it's Hellsing and not Twilight

Just look at all the bishounen.  It must be Twilight.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on April 12, 2013, 05:51:39 PM
My train of thought:

“Oh, so this is an dumbass lead, at least he’s got the girl there”

“Oh he has a crush on her! That’s a surprise, would have guessed it would be the other way round”

“Aww, I quite like this girl, and their developing the romance in episode 1? That’s unusual”

“They almost confessed already? Hey that’s strange, I like it, I dislike it when they leave it to the end, and I hate how any romantic progression in mehca is usually a death fl- ............... wait ………………. OH COME ON!

*as expected she dies*
“IS IT THAT HARD TO PROPERLY INTEGRATE ROMANCE INTO MECHA? IS IT!!”

Then I went on a rampage. Damn these mecha tropes.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on April 12, 2013, 07:19:57 PM
BUT!

It's a Sunrise series.  No Body, No Death.   She can still come back to Bright Slap some sense into the MC, assuming he isn't eating everyone's brains.

Credit to the L-Elf guy, though.  You always double tap.  Though apparently that doesn't work on the Son of Cars.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on April 12, 2013, 07:27:16 PM
OH COME ON!

I actually had the exact opposite train of thought because of what that event caused the MC to do.  Normally, the Gundam pilot gets on the mecha to "protect myself" or "protect everyone."  Haruto basically goes "I'M GOING TO KILL SOME MOTHER****ERS" then goes and murders five people.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on April 12, 2013, 10:11:05 PM
So, the major WTF? series of the season.

Let's recap:

- Sunrise series.
- NOT a Gundam "universe" set of series.
- Space Nazis.
- High school aged special agents... who suck at hiding the fact they're supposed to be high school students
- Big breats
- Large Cast
- Pathetic MC
- Genki girl osananajimi
- Interrupted confession?
- WAR!
- War suddenly happening at their school
- Why is there a secret research facility under a school?
- Oh yeah, we're on colonies that are setup as a Dyson Sphere, which is cool
- Dead? main girl
- Jump in the cockpit without thinking or knowing what to do!
- Someone needs to actually look at a screen rather than whine for 2 minutes
- Give up being human!
- Better check that EULA, it appears you gave up your humanity
- Victory!
- Live Streaming of combat
- Assassination!
- Vampirism?????


Okay, so... it's Gundam Wing + Gundam SEED + Code Geass + Hellsing Unlimited?   Oh, and the OP is freaking sweet.

This is SUCH a train wreck about to happen.  This should be glorious!

I absolutely loathe the term trainwreck (especially as people like to associate it with mecha action shows) and think it's such a silly mindset to watch a show in.  Like what even makes a show a "trainwreck" per se and how is it that the term cannot just be applied to everything.  What does that even mean and how do we even know what people are supposed to be implying when they say it and if it has the same implications as when another person uses it.  The internet really needs to come up with a more relateable term for whatever the **** it means by "trainwreck"

OH COME ON!

I actually had the exact opposite train of thought because of what that event caused the MC to do.  Normally, the Gundam pilot gets on the mecha to "protect myself" or "protect everyone."  Haruto basically goes "I'M GOING TO KILL SOME MOTHER****ERS" then goes and murders five people.

It's hard to be sure what to make of Haruto so far.  I think the second episode is going to tell where he actually stands.  I really do hope they opt for the classic Gundam style of initially resistant pilot that gradually sees the necessity of being a part of the conflict they are in instead of another Shu or Kio type that can barely function as an effective fighter unless their hawt girlfriend goads them into fighting.  This is more so for the former, but yeah it's really time for a break from the wishy washy straight through to the end types and a return of the reluctant yet also willing fighter if for no other reason than the execution of the former usually ends up being very poor and borderline illogical within the framework of a given story.  It's REALLY hard and honestly probably impossible to do a show about war and have the main character not actually be involved in the fight with all they can muster by at least the halfway point.  I think the only time I've seen this done well is Turn A Gundam, though it should be mentioned that the writer for this is also the writer for that show so I guess if anyone could pull it off if it does come to that it would be him.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on April 13, 2013, 04:53:19 PM
@KS:

Space Nazis.
EULAs that give up your humanity.

This has train wreck written all over it.  But it can avoid being a train wreck by being over the top.  Code Geass and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure both work well in this way.   If the series takes itself "seriously", it's going to be on the Guilty Crown trajectory (which actually didn't lose itself until the 2nd cour).
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on April 13, 2013, 08:43:08 PM
@KS:

Space Nazis.
EULAs that give up your humanity.

This has train wreck written all over it.  But it can avoid being a train wreck by being over the top.  Code Geass and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure both work well in this way.   If the series takes itself "seriously", it's going to be on the Guilty Crown trajectory (which actually didn't lose itself until the 2nd cour).

I literally have absolutely no idea what you're even trying to say here so I think we'll just leave that part of the discussion at this.  :o

Though I will just add that I thought Guilty Crown was pretty much junk from about the 2nd episode onward due to it's complete and utter inability to maintain even a shred of consistency within the plot or characters development from episode to episode.  Felt like every episode of that was a semi-reboot on the story.  That was like a year and a half ago though and the whole "OMG this series is teh next Guilty Crowns!!!!!1111" thing is starting to get a little old in my book.  Especially because it comes up for like every other action oriented sci-fi show now.  ::)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on April 13, 2013, 09:42:54 PM
Guilty Crown had problems from the beginning, but it actually did get into a little bit of an grove going into the cour-ending first arc.  The loss of Dan Eagleman was a sad moment.  But it wasn't what we knew Guilty Crown to end up being.  That started in ep 13, and completed its place in infamy with ep 16.   There's a difference between being not good or bad (there's a bunch of those every season, though not quite with the production values/visual staff as Guilty Crown), and just going over the edge into complete incoherence.  Shuu ended up our Hilter-Messiah by the end of the series.   That's a train wreck.

Space Nazis:  See 8s into ep 1.  gg wasn't just trolling.

The EULA, which you find out about AFTER "resigning" your humanity:

Quote
1. We are not responsible for your safety in cases where your physiology was incompatible with the system.

2. All the actions of the mecha are under the control and responsibility of the pilot. Any changes to the pilot's body is entirely the responsibility of the pilot, the organisation is not to be blamed.

3. Once you are recorded as the designated pilot, you give up your rights to refuse orders from the organisation.

4. All data from the mecha and biological information of the pilot are the property of the organisation and is sent to us.

5. Once the pilot is registered, We reserve the right to kill the pilot at any time.

This could be awesome.  But if it tries to do the "I'm serious business" style that Gundam series are want to fall into, it's going to be a complete joke.  But if it tries to be more Code Geass, then it can work.  The series was pounding a complete LACK of subtlety into us in ep 1.   You can't suddenly do calm and understated after you've gone that way.   Compare this to Suisei no Gargantia, for instance.     This is why I said if the series wants to be something in the vein of Code Geass or Jojo's (which is really just the progenitor to the stupidly-over-the-top shounen series), then it could be a fun time.  If it wavers, it simply won't work.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on April 13, 2013, 10:47:36 PM
Guilty Crown had problems from the beginning, but it actually did get into a little bit of an grove going into the cour-ending first arc.  The loss of Dan Eagleman was a sad moment.  But it wasn't what we knew Guilty Crown to end up being.  That started in ep 13, and completed its place in infamy with ep 16.   There's a difference between being not good or bad (there's a bunch of those every season, though not quite with the production values/visual staff as Guilty Crown), and just going over the edge into complete incoherence.  Shuu ended up our Hilter-Messiah by the end of the series.   That's a train wreck.

Space Nazis:  See 8s into ep 1.  gg wasn't just trolling.

The EULA, which you find out about AFTER "resigning" your humanity:

Quote
1. We are not responsible for your safety in cases where your physiology was incompatible with the system.

2. All the actions of the mecha are under the control and responsibility of the pilot. Any changes to the pilot's body is entirely the responsibility of the pilot, the organisation is not to be blamed.

3. Once you are recorded as the designated pilot, you give up your rights to refuse orders from the organisation.

4. All data from the mecha and biological information of the pilot are the property of the organisation and is sent to us.

5. Once the pilot is registered, We reserve the right to kill the pilot at any time.

This could be awesome.  But if it tries to do the "I'm serious business" style that Gundam series are want to fall into, it's going to be a complete joke.  But if it tries to be more Code Geass, then it can work.  The series was pounding a complete LACK of subtlety into us in ep 1.   You can't suddenly do calm and understated after you've gone that way.   Compare this to Suisei no Gargantia, for instance.     This is why I said if the series wants to be something in the vein of Code Geass or Jojo's (which is really just the progenitor to the stupidly-over-the-top shounen series), then it could be a fun time.  If it wavers, it simply won't work.

Yeah I agree.  I would hope it doesn't try to be like Gundam cause I don't think it's built for that sort of thing at all.

And yeah I think Guilty Crown was derpy during the first half but had some semblance of internal consistency other than Shuu's flipping back and forth between episodes and apparently resetting to weak willed.  The second half was certainly unique......
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on April 14, 2013, 01:43:32 PM
We don't need to rehash Guilty Crown, but they were actually playing with Shuu having PTSD.  If you watched his reactions/actions through most of the first half, you could seem something of that narrative.  Then he became Hilter.    The first 1/2 of Guilty Crown was a 5; mediocre but pretty.   The second 1/2 is an all-time disaster.

Now, with Valvrave, since we've introduced either Vampires or Zombies, it's got a world of possible options.  It is also a split-cour series, so there is no excuse for a writing disaster like Guilty Crown.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Kiniest on April 14, 2013, 03:02:24 PM
1: I'm going to refrain from commenting on this since I have no experience in Mecha, but from how you guys are describing it, this seems a little convoluted compared to other mechs?

And the ending... what the actual ****?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on April 14, 2013, 03:53:47 PM
1: I'm going to refrain from commenting on this since I have no experience in Mecha, but from how you guys are describing it, this seems a little convoluted compared to other mechs?

And the ending... what the actual ****?

Understanding Mecha's main tropes isn't too hard:

1a) Unintended, world-beater pilot. ==  Normally hops in the Mecha by chance/to save his friends. 

1b) Hot-shot pilot that gets a vehicle upgrade.   == Extra points if the mecha is a revolutionary design and made with some new material.

2) Your Villain has to be the hottest guy around.  == Hi Char, version 476.  Points if he's also nearly gay.

3) No body, no death.  ==  This comes up all of the time.

4) Physical abuse.  == Look up "Bright Slap".

5) If your director is depressed, everyone is going to die.  == E.g. Ideon.  (There's a reason he's called Kill'em All Tomimo)

6) If Gundam series, has "non-Jedi Jedi".  == Pretty much every Gundam series but MS 8th Team.

Those are the main tropes.  Passed those, it's just military science fiction.  The ones that work break the mold pretty hard, but still play with those tropes.

For Valvrave's starting aspects, the issue is that our MC doesn't actually have any drive to do what needs to be done.  In most Mecha series, they're already driven people.  The counter-example is Shinji from NGE, but he was designed *intentionally* to circumvent the setup.  Which is also why the world ended.    Here, it's short term revenge, and it now looks like Zombie powers or something will keep him going.  This doesn't appear to be completely a fight for survival (which is common) or fighting to run away or fighting for a cause.  His cause is now over: he got revenge. 

It's not that our MC is a self-insert type, it's that the emotional beats were played like Obon drums into our head, but since this all happened in ep 1, we don't really get the impact.  So it's hard to see how this gets carried forward without being a drag on the series.  He was pressed into fighting by terror, which isn't a good place to work a full 26 episode series from.   It doesn't help that Dead Girl seemed to have the most personality of the entire cast.

No one has a clue what that ending was about.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Kiniest on April 14, 2013, 06:45:13 PM
1: I'm going to refrain from commenting on this since I have no experience in Mecha, but from how you guys are describing it, this seems a little convoluted compared to other mechs?

And the ending... what the actual ****?

Understanding Mecha's main tropes isn't too hard:

1a) Unintended, world-beater pilot. ==  Normally hops in the Mecha by chance/to save his friends. 

1b) Hot-shot pilot that gets a vehicle upgrade.   == Extra points if the mecha is a revolutionary design and made with some new material.

2) Your Villain has to be the hottest guy around.  == Hi Char, version 476.  Points if he's also nearly gay.

3) No body, no death.  ==  This comes up all of the time.

4) Physical abuse.  == Look up "Bright Slap".

5) If your director is depressed, everyone is going to die.  == E.g. Ideon.  (There's a reason he's called Kill'em All Tomimo)

6) If Gundam series, has "non-Jedi Jedi".  == Pretty much every Gundam series but MS 8th Team.

Those are the main tropes.  Passed those, it's just military science fiction.  The ones that work break the mold pretty hard, but still play with those tropes.

For Valvrave's starting aspects, the issue is that our MC doesn't actually have any drive to do what needs to be done.  In most Mecha series, they're already driven people.  The counter-example is Shinji from NGE, but he was designed *intentionally* to circumvent the setup.  Which is also why the world ended.    Here, it's short term revenge, and it now looks like Zombie powers or something will keep him going.  This doesn't appear to be completely a fight for survival (which is common) or fighting to run away or fighting for a cause.  His cause is now over: he got revenge. 

It's not that our MC is a self-insert type, it's that the emotional beats were played like Obon drums into our head, but since this all happened in ep 1, we don't really get the impact.  So it's hard to see how this gets carried forward without being a drag on the series.  He was pressed into fighting by terror, which isn't a good place to work a full 26 episode series from.   It doesn't help that Dead Girl seemed to have the most personality of the entire cast.

No one has a clue what that ending was about.

Welp, I've been spoiled for Ideon and Evangelion. Nethertheless, thank you for your explanation. I'll try to remember this from now on. I'm still not going to comment on this.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on April 14, 2013, 08:05:23 PM
Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father.  And Leia is his sister.

NGE is almost 18 years old, it's pretty acceptable to talk about it.  And you wouldn't seek out Ideon without knowing "of" it first. :)   Though NGE's ending is actually open to so damn many interpretations, it's hard to say the "world ended". 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on April 17, 2013, 03:55:13 AM
I laughed my ass off at the ending of the episode. I wasn´t expecting that at all.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 17, 2013, 03:14:36 PM
1:

Let's see, mecha move around like there isn't a human body inside suffering the effects of inertia and they all explode into pretty pink clouds of gas.

Yep, it's Sunrise alright.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: thanosmat on April 18, 2013, 01:36:53 PM
2

(http://i.imgur.com/ZJeMAo9.jpg)

Nothing more need to be said.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on April 18, 2013, 07:49:04 PM
Episode 2

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This is Code Geass levels of trolling.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shinmaru on April 18, 2013, 08:10:32 PM
Finally a giant robot that runs on THE POWER OF SATAN!!!!!!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Delta-G on April 18, 2013, 10:33:45 PM
Hold that gun El-Elf, Imma let you finish, but first I gotta take this call from my girl Shoko. I thought she was roast beef, so I shot all these space Nazis to get even and gave zero ****s. Yea, I know we are in the middle of battle against a guy in a space lobster who can't pronounce your name, but I really need to tell her how awful her shirt is, so don't go shooting me yet. Not that doing so would do much anyways, seeing as I am an unfeeling body-snatcher and all now. Oh did you know that helicopters don't handle like bikes? Who woulda-thunk? Welp, its time for CONDITION: RAVE, we sudoku now!

Sunrise really wants another Code Geass, and who can blame them after the disaster that was Gundam AGE?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on April 19, 2013, 01:25:19 AM
This show is just so silly, but it's silly in a way I can enjoy.

I particularly loved the bits with A-Drei and L-Elf. It made me think back to (early) Orange-kun.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on April 19, 2013, 04:35:46 AM
My train of thought:

“Oh well, I got over the fact she died, and I like how ****ing angry he is, makes it better than if he was a wimp”

“She's alive? AWW WHAT?! I know I was complaining that she died, but that's an ass pull”

“Aww, oh well, I suppose at the very least I'll get to see that early romance that I've never seen before”

“Oh, he's only just worked out now that he did something a tad strange? Oh well, their going to confess in a bit! So he's no longer fully human, I wonder if he's going to become all self loathing and - wait, no no no no no I see what you're doing there!”
.....
"OH COME ON!!!!!"
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 20, 2013, 01:44:39 AM
2:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

What a ****ing mess this is!  I guarantee this sells 20,000 blue rays!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: The Big Guy on April 20, 2013, 02:18:16 AM
1-2:

I can't even get reception in my dorm room, how does this guy get reception in SPACE!?

This is the next Code Geass R2, a very large and brilliant train wreck. I'm psyched to see how ridiculous this show gets in the future.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on April 20, 2013, 10:41:13 AM
Some people see this huge mess, I just see a show that is having a little fun with itself while it builds up it's mysteries and character relationships.  It's really not that unusual to me, not sure what types of shows other people here watch but yeah there's a lot of silliness in this (which is honestly fine by me) but also a lot of set up which is making thing pretty interesting so far.  The only thing that might become frustrating is if the MC cycles back and forth between proactive and self-loathing like Shu in Guilty Crown for no explicable development based reason.  That I definitely do not want to see happen.

2:

I guarantee this sells 20,000 blue rays!

And I can already see the tremendous butthurt if it does and people being tremendous self-righteous douchebags about it if it doesn't.  There's really little way for this show to win any points at all with a certain crowd that unfortunately tends to follow Sunrise stuff (If something interesting or telling happens they just ignore it, if something silly happens people pretend to melt down over it) but whatever, haters gonna hate.

Anyway something interesting I saw someone post on another forum that might have been an inspiration for the show:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valravn
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Marid King on April 20, 2013, 01:18:30 PM
1-2:

Ugh. That was ugly. I didn't find any characters appealing, things are moving along like they're strapped to a rocket, and highchool mecha haven't interested me since FMP. This show just isn't my speed.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on April 20, 2013, 04:30:59 PM
2:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

What a ****ing mess this is!  I guarantee this sells 20,000 blue rays!

In other news, Infinite Stratos is getting a 2nd season, probably in Fall.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on April 24, 2013, 10:16:16 PM
1-2:
It's a masterpiece I tells ya! Ha, ha! I'm joking of course, but I still enjoyed it. And I especially like how I was somehow able to seriously watch the episodes and after all was said and done realize how silly some lines were. A solid 7/10.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on April 25, 2013, 10:18:29 PM
Episode 3

Suzaku's got nothing on L-ELF.  He's a walking, talking Gundam.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on April 26, 2013, 07:02:55 AM
3:

That was so unbelievably stupid and contrived. Seriously, what the actual ****?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on April 26, 2013, 08:19:57 PM
3:
This anime is glorious.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on April 26, 2013, 10:00:13 PM
L-Elf of the Rebellion indeed
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on April 27, 2013, 01:08:53 PM
This show is the silliest thing. I love it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on April 27, 2013, 03:01:59 PM
This show is the silliest thing. I love it.

I don't think it's quite reached the level of Overman King Gainer yet which was by far this writers silliest work and most random, but also one of his funnest to watch. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 27, 2013, 03:50:32 PM
3:

Did I say this would ONLY sell 20k Blue-Rays?  No no, a MILLION Blue-Rays!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 02, 2013, 05:27:05 PM
4:

(http://www.greenmanov.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Kyon-facepalm1.jpg)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Kiniest on May 02, 2013, 06:37:52 PM
4:
(http://media.animegalleries.net/albums/bakemonogatari/Koyomi%20Araragi/bakemonogatari_koyomi0160.png?=123)

That's just... Really?!
I said I wasn't going to post on this anymore, but this is just rediculous.
And yet I have no words for this bullshit. Mostly because I don't really know how to put it.
Contrivant, ludicrous, and pretentious.
And it will ****ing sell.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 02, 2013, 08:03:27 PM
4:
(http://media.animegalleries.net/albums/bakemonogatari/Koyomi%20Araragi/bakemonogatari_koyomi0160.png?=123)

That's just... Really?!
I said I wasn't going to post on this anymore, but this is just rediculous.
And yet I have no words for this bullshit. Mostly because I don't really know how to put it.
Contrivant, ludicrous, and pretentious.
And it will ****ing sell.

I definitely think its the first two but not the third.  I still don't think this show would be getting as much hate if it weren't for the mecha factor.  The fact that its clearly just comfortable with what it is and so am I just kind of keeps me from getting angry and wanting to see how the season played out.  It might not be fantastic but its definitely been one of the more enjoyable shows of the season for me like Maou-Sama. Last week I said the show hadn't reached the level of Overman King Gainer yet but this week it may have surpassed it.  I'm not sure how I feel about this yet.

Also its spelled ridiculous.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 02, 2013, 08:14:36 PM
I know I may have been inactive this for this season, but this show is just begging for it.  I have to agree with everyone here.  It's so brazen with it's use of bad tropes and characters, it goes to being laughably bad and into groaning territory.  I can also agree that this will sell to every person naive and stupid enough to truly enjoy this without realizing how bad it is.  I pity anyone who can take this show with a straight face.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Reckoner on May 02, 2013, 08:49:40 PM
Eh, this show is so ridiculous that i can't help but be entertained by it. If you take it too seriously, obviously the show will collapse on itself into a black hole.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 02, 2013, 08:56:49 PM
I know I may have been inactive this for this season, but this show is just begging for it.  I have to agree with everyone here.  It's so brazen with it's use of bad tropes and characters, it goes to being laughably bad and into groaning territory.  I can also agree that this will sell to every person naive and stupid enough to truly enjoy this without realizing how bad it is.  I pity anyone who can take this show with a straight face.

I don't really need someones pity to enjoy something tongue in cheek.  :P
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on May 02, 2013, 09:05:55 PM
Eh, this show is so ridiculous that i can't help but be entertained by it. If you take it too seriously, obviously the show will collapse on itself into a black hole.

So you're saying it's Infinite Stratos? :)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 02, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
Eh, this show is so ridiculous that i can't help but be entertained by it. If you take it too seriously, obviously the show will collapse on itself into a black hole.

So you're saying it's Infinite Stratos? :)

I think Overman King Gainer is more comparable.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on May 02, 2013, 10:31:40 PM
4

They just pulled a Horizon in the Middle of Nowhere.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on May 03, 2013, 04:38:02 AM
"Hey bitch, I'm the most skilled assassin ever; do what I say or I'll let all of your friends die."
"**** you, you killed me."


This show is great.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on May 03, 2013, 11:43:12 PM
4:
Honestly, if you can't see the gold in "Call me Moses. I'm going to splt the sea of students in two." then drop this show right now. Meanwhile the rest of us are gonna keep watching and have fun doing so. "Fun!" Remember that word we abandoned when good anime could only be complex masterpieces?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on May 04, 2013, 11:30:30 AM
4:

This show is pretty awesome. Meanwhile gg's subs are quite horrible.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 04, 2013, 02:46:47 PM
4:

ALLLLLLLL THE BLU-RAYS!!!!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 04, 2013, 07:22:02 PM
To be fair, there is a big difference between not realizing a show is bad and figuring out that it has bad qualities.  The show is pretty enjoyable if you can take it all in stride, but anyone looking for genuine quality in story and dialogue would probably just groan in pain from this show. 

Mind you, it's a given this is going to sell millions of blu-rays.  It appeals to that mecha audience that stopped giving a damn about actual stuff like physics and character motivation.  I'm on the other side, personally.  I'm not looking for a new Ghost in the Shell.  However, I am looking for a show that doesn't feature stupid characters with flip-flopping motivations and mechs that defy all forms of physics in space.  This is definitely the kind of show that succeeds when your brain is just shut off entirely.  On the flip side, I have to say that I've seen plenty of shows that do that with comedy in mind and do much better.  This show is just so bad, it makes you laugh and possibly groan for enjoying it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on May 04, 2013, 07:36:15 PM
RyuKyotei: Personally, I'm watching this all for "ok, what are they gonna come up with next?". The mechs are nice eye candy, but I'd probably like it no less if they left them out altogether.
But yeah, this show is probably best enjoyed with a beer in hand and a few already down the throat.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 05, 2013, 02:02:27 PM
To be fair, there is a big difference between not realizing a show is bad and figuring out that it has bad qualities.  The show is pretty enjoyable if you can take it all in stride, but anyone looking for genuine quality in story and dialogue would probably just groan in pain from this show. 

Mind you, it's a given this is going to sell millions of blu-rays.  It appeals to that mecha audience that stopped giving a damn about actual stuff like physics and character motivation.  I'm on the other side, personally.  I'm not looking for a new Ghost in the Shell.  However, I am looking for a show that doesn't feature stupid characters with flip-flopping motivations and mechs that defy all forms of physics in space.  This is definitely the kind of show that succeeds when your brain is just shut off entirely.  On the flip side, I have to say that I've seen plenty of shows that do that with comedy in mind and do much better.  This show is just so bad, it makes you laugh and possibly groan for enjoying it.

Thanks for continuing to yet again insult, whitewash and generalize an entire fanbase and their motivations/reasons for enjoying the things they do.  Classy..... ::)

I really think it's high time you just stick to your motivations and leanings towards this show instead of trying to speak for others as you're frankly not doing a very good job of it at all.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 05, 2013, 04:22:32 PM
Whoa now, ease up there KS.  I don't think he's saying anything wrong by generalizing a couple of fanbases.  After all, Sunrise are, themselves, counting on particular groups to be watching the show.  Hooking a target audience with a specific genre is not out of bounds for discussion.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 05, 2013, 05:13:19 PM
Whoa now, ease up there KS.  I don't think he's saying anything wrong by generalizing a couple of fanbases.  After all, Sunrise are, themselves, counting on particular groups to be watching the show.  Hooking a target audience with a specific genre is not out of bounds for discussion.

Yeah I know I realize that, I just really don't appreciate the continued insinuation from Ryukotei that people that enjoy mecha don't give a damn about physics and "actual stuff" like character motivation cause I care plenty about that and happen to be a pretty big mecha nerd.  At the same time I can enjoy the bombast of a super robot show where lines like "BREAST FIRE!" and "Japanium alloy" are delivered with a straight and serious face on the characters and where the mecha can pull off def-defying and seemingly physically impossible feets like doubling back on it's own movement or chopping a planet in half with a giant axe.  It has nothing to do with being smart and saavy versus "naive and stupid" as he put it earlier so much as having an actual sense of humor and fun and being willing to take things in stride.

There's also a huge difference between saying something like you just did about Sunrise appealing to particular groups and fanbases and what I got from the post I quoted previous where I sensed the implication that said fanbase is somehow retarded or something and can't appreciate the "finer things" in anime.  There's a huge difference between generalizing for the sake of brevity and being kind of insulting and I felt that post was pretty borderline so I responded in kind.

Also maybe it's just me but I'm not really seeing the chaotic flip flopping between character motivations so far.  Every character that I can see has been pretty consistent within their own context so far compared to something like Guilty Crown where even by this point it almost felt like the cast were completely different characters every episode.  I can however agree that the dialogue isn't exactly lights out compared to something like Gundam Unicorn or Patlabor but I also don't think some of the subbing is helping.  Some of the liberties taken by certain fansub groups hasn't exactly been on the level and makes a lot of dialogue that is otherwise quite straightforward and to the point if a little silly seem utterly ridiculous and nonsensical at times.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 05, 2013, 06:15:26 PM
I don't know if this will defuse the situation, but let me explain my thoughts.

I'm not here to call every single possible fan of mecha anime out there "retarded" or insinuate that they can't enjoy the "finer things" in anime.  A fan of this show, like Thot, can enjoy this show till their heart is content.  However, this is reliant on the fact that one can at least see the faults behind this show.  The combat, while exciting, seems to defy any form of common sense.  The characters, while more consistent than Guilty Crown, still seem to show so much stupidity and lack of morals, I have to wonder what's actually going on in their skulls.  Their seems to be very little character development so far and the dialogue, minus the bad subs, isn't going to win any awards.  The politics between the nations are decent, but lacking in many ways.  I could point out more flaws, but I think you get the idea.

That all aside, I'm not calling every fan "retarded" for liking that.  Everyone has different tastes, and I see that.  I'm just pointing out, and TypicalIdiotFan is saying this as well, that sunrise and this show are appealing to a crowd that seems more than willing to accept bad writing and characters for 20 minutes of dumb action and mechs.  I only point out shows like Ghost in the Shell because they stand out for having the things that this show seems to lack at times.  I'm not looking for the hottest, newest writing sensation on the market.  I can see why this show would appeal to a certain crowd and that crowd could enjoy other things, but I can only analyze this from an analytical point of view. 

So in summary, I don't think that fans of this show can't enjoy the "finer things" in anime or that they they're retarded in some way.  Thot could enjoy quite a bit of variety in the shows he watches and tries to see this show's positive aspects.  Joe Schmoe could enjoy Cowboy Bebop and still have fun with this show.  I admit that I don't think some realize the many flaws this show has, but they're not retarded for it.  In my opinion, I think that's just a case of bad taste.  If I offended you in some way, KS, I apologize.  I'm not always subtle in my critique and I think this forum has seen the many times where I will call out a show for the problems it could have.  However, I didn't mean to insult you, if I did.  When I was writing that, it wasn't my intention to imply that every person who enjoys this show is beyond stupid.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 05, 2013, 07:45:44 PM
And with that... I'll head back into the shadows and simply watch.

With popcorn.

And lube.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 05, 2013, 09:01:11 PM
4:

There's like three different moments in here where the show basically points out its own silliness, through the words of certain characters, but decides to go forward in any case.

Which is enough self-awareness for me enjoy all these ridiculous things with a clean conscience. The people writing this aren't retarded, nor do they think the audience isn't going to laugh.

That said, I do think a few of the complaints made above are valid. However, others seem a little exaggerated or misplaced, such as some of those concerning the mecha since nothing here is violating the conventions of the genre (which has only rarely cared for physics even during the heyday of Real Robots, although this specific show is leaning towards Supers).

But this isn't a show that's worth debating about in detail, even if I wanted to prove my point. Thus, I'll keep watching this (plus Gargantia and whatever keeps me interested or entertained).
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on May 09, 2013, 07:27:19 PM
5:
Well now... I don't know what I can possibly add to that...
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on May 10, 2013, 06:30:04 AM
It´s like watching OreShura again IN SPAAACEEE

I liked how they were at each other´s throats until the lights came on. Imagine when they inevitably start running out of food or stuff.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on May 10, 2013, 06:38:31 AM
It´s like watching OreShura again IN SPAAACEEE

I liked how they were at each other´s throats until the lights came on. Imagine when they inevitably start running out of food or stuff.

I'm not sure if that's an insult to OreShura or not...
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 10, 2013, 07:50:52 AM
It´s like watching OreShura again IN SPAAACEEE

I liked how they were at each other´s throats until the lights came on. Imagine when they inevitably start running out of food or stuff.

I'm not sure if that's an insult to OreShura or not...

Oreshura was meh and was never going anywhere but this is entertaining as hell and seems to know what its doing at least.  I dont really see where the two are comparable.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 10, 2013, 09:22:00 AM
I still am not sure whether or not they are being retarded or not on purpose. I don't think funny by the ridiculous is what they are aiming for, I just think it's just a failure of writing.

When she started singing jingle bells randomly:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P7k6vqENEqw/UFi2zbz-dGI/AAAAAAAAABE/-EvEqELf7XE/s1600/Facepalm+computer.jpg)

I find myself doing it a lot when I watch this.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on May 10, 2013, 11:32:41 AM
Nevermind.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 10, 2013, 01:31:04 PM
I still am not sure whether or not they are being retarded or not on purpose. I don't think funny by the ridiculous is what they are aiming for, I just think it's just a failure of writing.

When she started singing jingle bells randomly:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P7k6vqENEqw/UFi2zbz-dGI/AAAAAAAAABE/-EvEqELf7XE/s1600/Facepalm+computer.jpg)

I find myself doing it a lot when I watch this.

Watch King Gainer.   Like it or not its just this guys style and very much deliberate.  Huge difference between not liking something and it being objectively bad writing.   Its funny how much times have changed, back then when that show would go a little screwball or the characters broke into a song and dance routine in King Gainer people loved it.  Now its "bad writing" though.   I guess people just knew how to have more fun back then and roll with the punches.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on May 10, 2013, 02:50:04 PM
5

Wait, what?   
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 10, 2013, 04:19:16 PM
I still am not sure whether or not they are being retarded or not on purpose. I don't think funny by the ridiculous is what they are aiming for, I just think it's just a failure of writing.

When she started singing jingle bells randomly:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P7k6vqENEqw/UFi2zbz-dGI/AAAAAAAAABE/-EvEqELf7XE/s1600/Facepalm+computer.jpg)

I find myself doing it a lot when I watch this.

Watch King Gainer.   Like it or not its just this guys style and very much deliberate.  Huge difference between not liking something and it being objectively bad writing.   Its funny how much times have changed, back then when that show would go a little screwball or the characters broke into a song and dance routine in King Gainer people loved it.  Now its "bad writing" though.   I guess people just knew how to have more fun back then and roll with the punches.
I watched Overman King Gainer, and fairly recently at that. With that show you could clearly see that it was trying to joke around as well as have the main story (I think it didn't mesh the two brilliantly though), the opening had the mechas doing the Monkey, you can tell. However here, exactly what hint has the show given that it's intentionally being retarded? To me it looks like it's taking itself very seriously.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 10, 2013, 05:04:35 PM
I still am not sure whether or not they are being retarded or not on purpose. I don't think funny by the ridiculous is what they are aiming for, I just think it's just a failure of writing.

When she started singing jingle bells randomly:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P7k6vqENEqw/UFi2zbz-dGI/AAAAAAAAABE/-EvEqELf7XE/s1600/Facepalm+computer.jpg)

I find myself doing it a lot when I watch this.

Watch King Gainer.   Like it or not its just this guys style and very much deliberate.  Huge difference between not liking something and it being objectively bad writing.   Its funny how much times have changed, back then when that show would go a little screwball or the characters broke into a song and dance routine in King Gainer people loved it.  Now its "bad writing" though.   I guess people just knew how to have more fun back then and roll with the punches.
I watched Overman King Gainer, and fairly recently at that. With that show you could clearly see that it was trying to joke around as well as have the main story (I think it didn't mesh the two brilliantly though), the opening had the mechas doing the Monkey, you can tell. However here, exactly what hint has the show given that it's intentionally being retarded? To me it looks like it's taking itself very seriously.

Do you want a list?  Also not sure I can explain how its being "retarded" but goofy I can do.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 10, 2013, 05:13:54 PM
Do you want a list?

This, a dozen times this.

If I hadn't already said that Valvrave isn't worth actually debating about at length, I would sincerely help you compile that list.

Nothing is "accidental" or "unintentional" in this show so far. You can easily make a better case for the opposite being true (though perhaps the source of another set of issues).

5:

The silliness of the students not knowing how to properly run things and their temporary solutions were enjoyable enough (cheesy as hell, but I found it amusing).

Having said that, the part I actually liked the most about the episode was the last couple of minutes, for both obvious and not-so-obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 10, 2013, 05:19:45 PM
Oh you'll compile a list then will you?

Go on then.

Actually, to save you some time, I don't mean for you to list all the times it's done something incredibly stupid, I am distinctly aware of when it's done these things, if you come at me saying that the random jingle bells was an attempt at humour, or the "she died -> oh wait" was satirizing mecha, then I'd recommend not bothering at all.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 10, 2013, 05:25:25 PM
I am distinctly aware of when it's done these things, if you come at me saying that the random jingle bells was an attempt at humour, or the "she died -> oh wait" was satirizing mecha, then I'd recommend not bothering at all.

Call it whatever you want, but several of those things are clearly intended to be humorous and are occasionally outright lampshaded as such.

Of course, that doesn't mean you will find them to be funny in practice. But even if you dislike those elements, denying that they are deliberate is incredibly questionable.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 10, 2013, 05:28:05 PM
Well, bring me an example of the outright lampshading and I'll acknowledge it was intentional. Unlike it being retarded/funny, lampshading is very explicit so you can't misinterpret it.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 10, 2013, 05:32:19 PM
Generally speaking, that applies to situations where anyone in the cast says or admits that something is, in fact, stupid or otherwise absurd. Even episode 5 had a few of those.

I'll leave the listing or any further details to KS and/or anyone else who wishes to make that effort.


Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 10, 2013, 06:27:16 PM
I really don't think the show is worth the effort.  At least, I wouldn't put effort forward to really defend this show.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 10, 2013, 06:33:12 PM
I really don't think the show is worth the effort.  At least, I wouldn't put effort forward to really defend this show.

Which is exactly why I'm basically putting less-than-half-effort into my posts, as opposed to dropping a literal wall of text here.

It's just that even when dealing with a silly and ridiculous show, like Valvrave, it's still possible to disagree about it without being a drooling idiot (or so I hope).
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 10, 2013, 06:52:58 PM
With this show, it often either makes you love it for how crazy and stupid it is or it makes you hate it for being crazy and stupid.  It's like the Nutella of anime.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 10, 2013, 08:03:11 PM
I really don't think the show is worth the effort.  At least, I wouldn't put effort forward to really defend this show.

Which is exactly why I'm basically putting less-than-half-effort into my posts, as opposed to dropping a literal wall of text here.

It's just that even when dealing with a silly and ridiculous show, like Valvrave, it's still possible to disagree about it without being a drooling idiot (or so I hope).

I think I like you.  And yeah I don't want to put too much effort into compiling a list if its just going to brushed aside without any real consideration cause I've been down that road before but I will suggest that its not what the show does but how it does it thats often times the key. Things like Saki's deadpanning the line "adults never play fair, things like Shoko getting nailed in the head with a can when talking to Akira the Neet.  Things like Saki saying that doing what Haruto did to get in L-Elfs body in reverse should work cause thats how it goes n the movies.   Its not quite Gintama levels of winking and nodding but it strikes me as the show is content to have a little fun at the moment.  I don't like absolutely every bit in the show but I'm not seeing the egregiously bad writing either
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 10, 2013, 08:23:09 PM
The writing isn't the worst I've seen in a long time, but it has it's really bad moments.  It tries so hard to make you take this stuff seriously, but then has a really wacky moment that you can't take seriously at all. 

As for an example of where this kind of thing works, I'll point to Gintama.  It knows when to separate comedy and serious moments.  At the same time, it also knows how to end comedy on a serious, but lighthearted moment, or end serious moments with comedy to make you laugh.  This show takes a serious moment and tends to just sort of insert seemingly jokey moments when they aren't all that appropriate.

So not the worst writing, in that sense, but it's something that definitely annoys someone trying to either enjoy the serious or funny moments.  It never quite gels into a single entity of natural comedy flowing from the drama.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Reckoner on May 10, 2013, 08:26:49 PM
Here I'll do it for you guys.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/06c1578d4ecf1ace0670ba66d2571389/tumblr_mm7hfw1boD1r193sio2_r2_500.gif

The sheer ridiculousness of it can only be intentional goofiness.

http://imgur.com/CQVaT6X

A line of dialogue this preposterous can only be intentionally made in good fun.

http://blog.draggle.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/valvrave_the_liberator_04_1.jpg
http://blog.draggle.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/valvrave_the_liberator_04_2.jpg

Seriously. You are going to read dialogue like this and not laugh?

At the end of episode 4 we even had L-Elf burst out laughing at the whole situation because he can't believe what is happening at all. The show definitely is trying to be fun in a very otngue and cheek manner.

Now there is no doubt that there is a side of it that does wish to be taken semi-seriously as well. It does feel like the show is trying to have its cake and eat it too. To me this show's tone feels very similar to Code Geass, although a bit goofier. Like I said in the first impressions article, try to turn off your brain while watching if you want to try to enjoy this at all. Otherwise, you're going to have a rough time.






Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 12, 2013, 01:32:07 AM
5:

NO!  I WAS WRONG!  THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH BLU-RAY DISCS IN EXISTENCE TO MATCH THE SALES THIS WILL HAVE!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on May 12, 2013, 02:23:44 AM
Actually, by current Amazon Stalker tracking, Valvrave currently has about 1/2 the points of Gargantia.  And Attack on Titan has about 3x as much as Gargantia.  This is the season of Attack on Titan, especially given that the anime is going to drive the Manga sales to #2 for the year, at this rate.  The back catalog sold 550k copies two weeks ago.  It might sell even more this past week. 

Valvrave should do okay, but it's not going to be a breakout success.  Unless it goes full BatS*** from here out.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 12, 2013, 05:16:43 PM
SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!  IT WILL MAKE MEEEEEEEEEEELLIONS.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 12, 2013, 08:30:15 PM
Actually the show jumped like 80 spots on those charts into the top 10 the night the latest episode aired no doubt due to singing etc.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: ImperialX on May 12, 2013, 09:59:08 PM
Actually the show jumped like 80 spots on those charts into the top 10 the night the latest episode aired no doubt due to singing etc.

Yeah, it's still in the Top 20 (Page 1) right now. Pretty impressed with the sales...and also Japan's abysmal tastes.

(http://i.imgur.com/4MO19y1.jpg)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 13, 2013, 11:50:25 AM
Actually the show jumped like 80 spots on those charts into the top 10 the night the latest episode aired no doubt due to singing etc.

Yeah, it's still in the Top 20 (Page 1) right now. Pretty impressed with the sales...and also Japan's abysmal tastes.

(http://i.imgur.com/4MO19y1.jpg)

In what manner are Japans tastes abysmal exactly and what is this getting based on?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Arabesque on May 16, 2013, 06:24:23 PM
I have to say, I wasn't exactly all that excited over this show after the first 3 episodes but the Moses line slayed me completely. I had to stop the video for a while because I was laughing too hard.

I'm not sure what to say about Valvrave at this point. There is no denying that it is ''entraining'' in how it embraces and revels in it own absurdity, and even if there are many things that could be pointed and laughed at, I can't help but think that they are intentionally made to be funny. So on that scale, Valvrave is doing a good job providing a light hearted mecha series with some decent looking action on the side.

However, on the other scale we have the more dramatic elements, and that's when I start to worry about what the series is aiming for. Say what you will about shutting your brain off, but I personally can't help but shudder at the gruesome nature of some of the events that keep on unfolding here. There are scenes of incredibly violent nature that seem to be brushed aside for the more joyful school days one, and the situation with the war between the two super powers doesn't exactly help matters when it is treated in the most serious manner. I could maybe look at as the students trying to looking at the proverbially broken glass as half full since they are stuck in a dire situation with no clear way out, so they are trying to get their minds off worrying and sulking around, and trying to make the best out of it by having fun and making due with what they got. But that doesn't help the presentation of the series when the more bombastic moments just outright undermine and reduce the gravity of the state of affairs. It's one thing showing the cast and school keeping their chins up and staying strong by producing a music video, another to show one of the major villains throw his gloves at the screen in a comical manner. It's these little touches that makes me worry about where VVV is heading with this, and if the scales will eventually alternate between the drama and the comedy without ever balancing out.

(For the record,  I actually thought the music video was kind of sweet and clever idea, even if the way Shoko brought the idea seemed incredibly random at first. It did make more sense when I thought about it for a bit and considered what she was getting at. The Money thing is something I lifted an eyebrow at, but let it slide since it wasn't that unbelievable)

As for comparison with Code Geass, I honestly think the two shows are just made out of different fabric entirely, even if the philosophy behind their creation is similar. Code Geass had its outlandish moments, but they were of a theatrical nature (where the aim was to emphasis and increase the drama of the situation) while with VV so far it is closer to being of self aware humour throughout. CG knew when it needed to turn off the drama from time to time.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on May 16, 2013, 06:37:38 PM
6:
Valvrave has passed 666 and into the realm of possibility.

Had to LOL that Saki as Haruto was more manly than Haruto as Haruto.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on May 16, 2013, 06:58:57 PM
6:

So they had a nice character to work with and then they went and totally fucked her up. Was it really necessary to make Saki into yet another emo queen? Couldn't they have gone and kept her as she was?
Bah, it's not like it wasn't very likely this'd happen but goddamnit. Not again.
I guess otherwise the show is working as it has been, but that aspect really dampened my enjoyment of this episode. :/
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on May 16, 2013, 07:52:32 PM
6:

"You can´t use somebody else´s body without permission!"


Holy shit, Saki is pretty crazy.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 16, 2013, 08:42:28 PM
6:
I want to punch every character in the face......

So ....... what isn't wrong with this entire episode that isn't indicative of the series' problems over all?  Let's start with the serious moments and the comic moments never working together.  Is it supposed to be amazing that Saki was able to do well with everyone watching her like a stalking fanboy/fangirl?  I don't know.  I don't feel for her if she's only shown to be a horrible person during this entire episode and almost non-existent otherwise.  Why is she now queen bitch?  Why does she want to be immortal?  Why does she hate humanity and seemingly answers the all important question of "Do you resign being human?" with a simple yes in five seconds?  I don't know!  The show didn't seem it was important to really reveal any of this beforehand.

Saki aside, the comedy and serious parts still never work together. I don't know if I can really like badly done high school humor/drama when an important character is switching motivations on the spot and we are seeing everyone die a horrible death.  Also add in the politics and the light/badly done humor only works against the show that wants you to both take it seriously and not all at the same time.  Who thought any of this worked together?

Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on May 16, 2013, 09:16:35 PM
Who thought any of this worked together?
Umm... Someone on drugs?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 16, 2013, 09:33:16 PM
At the risk of sounding judgmental, I have to wonder if you're actually right.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on May 16, 2013, 09:35:32 PM
6

Well, that was an unexpected revelation.  Saki just became a far more interesting character, but the show has been escalating its silliness meter to some unsettling highs.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 17, 2013, 01:20:37 AM
6:

I liked it much more than last week's, both in terms of the blatantly comedic scenes and the relatively serious yet still campy moments.

The episode gave off a few Macross vibes and, as a result, I really had no trouble dealing with all that silly idol stuff which others might otherwise dislike.

Saki isn't a horrible person nor some sort of saint, in my opinion, but  a teenage girl who combines uneven amounts of ambition and idealism, both of which were warped by people treating her poorly throughout her career.  I felt her current portrayal matches what was done with her in earlier episodes, though now clarified from a slightly different perspective. Honestly, it's pretty damn easy to figure things out, at least in retrospect, since this show isn't really subtle at all (thus RyuKyotei's questions above either already have answers or are not applicable, IMHO). I was also amused by her antics in Haruto's body, which are certainly selfish but mostly harmless.

Can't complain about the fact we did see more robots this time, but it looks like a lot of stuff is definitely happening next week on other fronts.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 17, 2013, 10:04:36 AM
6:

I liked it much more than last week's, both in terms of the blatantly comedic scenes and the relatively serious yet still campy moments.

The episode gave off a few Macross vibes and, as a result, I really had no trouble dealing with all that silly idol stuff which others might otherwise dislike.

Saki isn't a horrible person nor some sort of saint, in my opinion, but  a teenage girl who combines uneven amounts of ambition and idealism, both of which were warped by people treating her poorly throughout her career.  I felt her current portrayal matches what was done with her in earlier episodes, though now clarified from a slightly different perspective. Honestly, it's pretty damn easy to figure things out, at least in retrospect, since this show isn't really subtle at all (thus RyuKyotei's questions above either already have answers or are not applicable, IMHO). I was also amused by her antics in Haruto's body, which are certainly selfish but mostly harmless.

Can't complain about the fact we did see more robots this time, but it looks like a lot of stuff is definitely happening next week on other fronts.

I agree, if you follow all of her actions and dialogue and read between the lines with the nuances of her character so far (as in don't just take everything as some sort of" hurf durf trolololol" or "unintentional comedic trainwreck" throwaway bit or whatever people are calling it these days) there's quite a few hints that her goal is sole control over her own destiny and not necessarily power over other people, but power from influence by other people.  There's also quite a few hints that she'd like to do so through any means necessary as she seems to equate it with her own survival.  Any time there's been an attempt to tell her what to do or how to do it she's just sort of shrugged it off and taken matters into her own hands and seemed to enjoy it.  "Come on glasses girl we're going into the tunnel".  "We're taking this helicopter and we're going to the Valvrave".  "We'll tie this guy up and you switch back now Haruto".  "This blonde girl is popular and well respected because she's assertive, I'll just have to double up on her actions in front of everyone".  "I get to lead an idol performance to make sure the colony has funds, you bet I will". 

I'm not sure it's that she wants to be the center of attention so much as she doesn't see the difference between that and being in full control of her situation and free from the influence of others (it's not typically and quite the opposite IRL, but I suspect she'll have to realize her naivete before long).  That's not to suggest what she does this episode doesn't make her come off as pretty unlikeable and that people should sympathize with her or whatever, just that I don't think this show is as simplistic and/or one note as some are making it out to be and the Saki situation strikes me as an example of that.  Not everything is a "bad writing" moment or done as "unintentional comedy" and quite a few things have been telegraphed or at least hinted at before they've come to pass.

Look forward to next week.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 17, 2013, 02:29:02 PM
I guess that brings up the question then.  Even if you followed the characters and nuances before this, are you supposed to take this seriously?  Do they want you to laugh at the hijinks, fun, and battles or do they want you to take it seriously, with the characters all being really serious portrayals of unbalanced teenagers in charge of a pseudo- independent nation?  I don't know if I'm supposed to take these characters and situations seriously as people die horrible deaths through insane methods or take it all as some really crazy mech show where no character really matters anyways.  This show is so confused with the vibe it's going for, I'm getting whiplash from the conflicting tones.  It's like if you took the new Star Wars films, with the bad habit of putting funny comedy in a supposedly serious situation full of death, and put it into anime form.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 17, 2013, 02:43:21 PM
I've already explained what I think about that, I believe, but I'll bring it up again: There are degrees of not taking something seriously.

There's not taking it seriously to the point of completely forgetting what things happen, their order or their purpose but just getting blindly caught in the rush, and then there's paying a calculated amount of attention to that stuff even if you're also completely aware of how campy, ridiculous or simply funny the whole sequence of events and/or many of its elements are underneath, in order to enjoy the ride without becoming a drooling passenger.

I prefer the second approach, especially when the material supports it. Which is what I think is deliberately happening here, even though the balance is certainly fragile and may or may not work out. But generally speaking, I'm not the sort of person who gets angry at works of fiction, even at their worst, so putting more distance between myself and what I'm watching helps me keep my cool.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 17, 2013, 02:48:12 PM
I still can't believe that this is intentionally retarded, if it is, why am I not enjoying it? I am not trying to hate it, but when it's shit I just think it's being terrible and not in a good way. I don't find this amusing at all, and find it a pain to sit through the episode. This was the best one so far, but it was still stupid.

All of Reckoners examples have been incredibly stupid, perhaps laughably so, but I just can't feel any intention behind it.

Worst show of the season, I hate it even more than OreImo.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 17, 2013, 02:54:43 PM
By that approach, I have to wonder if the balance is just really skewed at this point.  It either focuses on the school aspect too much or the politics too much.  To add to the imbalance, the combat seems a bit too brutal at times to really make me laugh at the somewhat-stupid characters and their rather bad dialogue. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 17, 2013, 03:06:22 PM
I still can't believe that this is intentionally retarded, if it is, why am I not enjoying it? I am not trying to hate it, but when it's shit I just think it's being terrible and not in a good way. I don't find this amusing at all, and find it a pain to sit through the episode. This was the best one so far, but it was still stupid.

Why should you enjoy it? Not even the creators could force you to think like they do, and neither could anyone else.

That's just the particular way you think.

Some people think like you, as seen above, while others think like me.  I can honestly say that I felt absolutely no pain sitting through episode 6.

EDIT: After reading your reply below...I'm not trying to undermine your opinion but, quite the opposite, avoid forcing my views on you.

Quote
Worst show of the season, I hate it even more than OreImo.

Thankfully, I haven't seen a single episode of OreImo yet, so I can only shrug at the comparison.

By that approach, I have to wonder if the balance is just really skewed at this point.  It either focuses on the school aspect too much or the politics too much.  To add to the imbalance, the combat seems a bit too brutal at times to really make me laugh at the somewhat-stupid characters and their rather bad dialogue. 

Really? I think the actual world politics have mostly taken a backseat to everything else happening at the school so far. There's very few scenes I'd consider relevant to that aspect. As for the combat...well, the most brutal thing this last episode was the death of the Senator...which came across as gallows humor to me, if he is actually dead, since the character who apparently killed him off was the crazy shota who murders with a happy smile on his face. The rest was mostly standard mecha combat without much in the way of brutality. But again, I can't pretend to dictate how you look at things either.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 17, 2013, 03:16:19 PM
Oh, I understand that.  The way I look at it, the show is really the nutella of anime.  You either come to love it or hate it for what it does.  Some people take the bad dialogue, politics, death, and stupid characters in stride, using that as a source of humor.  Others, like me and Fumoffu, only get frustrated at what looks to be a show completely lost in confusion of what it's actually trying to do or make you feel.  Honestly, episode 6 had me face palming and groaning at almost every stupid thing that happened.  If you can get humor from that kind of thing, go for it.

(Disclaimer: I tend to like dark humor more than anything else, but the way the show did it just didn't seem to really fit the tone.)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 17, 2013, 03:29:25 PM
I just can't bring myself to accept it when people say "you just don't like it", it implies that there is no real reason why I don't like it, and that annoys me for two reasons. First I want to enjoy what I watch, and so I want to know why I can't, second it undermines my opinion as "you just don't get it".
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 17, 2013, 05:06:32 PM
I still can't believe that this is intentionally retarded, if it is, why am I not enjoying it? I am not trying to hate it, but when it's shit I just think it's being terrible and not in a good way. I don't find this amusing at all, and find it a pain to sit through the episode. This was the best one so far, but it was still stupid.

Why should you enjoy it? Not even the creators could force you to think like they do, and neither could anyone else.

That's just the particular way you think.

Some people think like you, as seen above, while others think like me.  I can honestly say that I felt absolutely no pain sitting through episode 6.

Quote
Worst show of the season, I hate it even more than OreImo.

Thankfully, I haven't seen a single episode of OreImo yet, so I can only shrug at the comparison.

By that approach, I have to wonder if the balance is just really skewed at this point.  It either focuses on the school aspect too much or the politics too much.  To add to the imbalance, the combat seems a bit too brutal at times to really make me laugh at the somewhat-stupid characters and their rather bad dialogue. 

Really? I think the actual world politics have mostly taken a backseat to everything else happening at the school so far. There's very few scenes I'd consider relevant to that aspect. As for the combat...well, the most brutal thing this last episode was the death of the Senator...which came across as gallows humor to me, if he is actually dead, since the character who apparently killed him off was the crazy shota who murders with a happy smile on his face. The rest was mostly standard mecha combat without much in the way of brutality. But again, I can't pretend to dictate how you look at things either.

I think this about covers it.  If you're getting to the point where the show can't do anything but aggravate the shit out of you (some shows just aggravate people to their very core.  I got to this point with Bakemonogatari despite how people rave about it I obviously don't think the same way they do about it at all and had to drop it for my own sanity) you ought to save yourself the time and quit watching while you're ahead.  Forget this whole memetic "omg trainwreck I can't look away" forget that its popular and just do whats best for yourself and everyone else using the thread and drop it if you can't contribute more than that it frustrates you week after week.  That would be my only added advice to Fumoffu.

Oh, I understand that.  The way I look at it, the show is really the nutella of anime.  You either come to love it or hate it for what it does.  Some people take the bad dialogue, politics, death, and stupid characters in stride, using that as a source of humor.  Others, like me and Fumoffu, only get frustrated at what looks to be a show completely lost in confusion of what it's actually trying to do or make you feel.  Honestly, episode 6 had me face palming and groaning at almost every stupid thing that happened.  If you can get humor from that kind of thing, go for it.

(Disclaimer: I tend to like dark humor more than anything else, but the way the show did it just didn't seem to really fit the tone.)

Funny this is like EXACTLY the conclusion I came to on Bakemonogatari almost word for word.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Reckoner on May 17, 2013, 07:04:34 PM
I still can't believe that this is intentionally retarded, if it is, why am I not enjoying it? I am not trying to hate it, but when it's shit I just think it's being terrible and not in a good way. I don't find this amusing at all, and find it a pain to sit through the episode. This was the best one so far, but it was still stupid.

All of Reckoners examples have been incredibly stupid, perhaps laughably so, but I just can't feel any intention behind it.

Worst show of the season, I hate it even more than OreImo.

Well I think it's intentionally retarded, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's enjoyable. Take something like the movie Kung Pao, which was as good as a B movie, but I wasn't able to even smile it.

Now, I hardly think valvrave is that stupid or bad, and it's a little more amusing than that to me personally, but I also experience frustration with this show many times because it does confuse you on what you should be feeling. I'm not always sure what is meant to be enjoyed ironically and what isn't. I think it's perfectly valid to say that this isn't a very good show, and I doubt I'll ever give this higher than a 5 or 6.

I definitely think though that if you take it seriously, this show is instantly shit. It simply doesn't hold up under any serious scrutiny.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Kiniest on May 18, 2013, 07:01:19 AM
6: I'm sorry, everyone, I just really can't take this show seriously. I was facepalming the entire episode. I can't even enjoy this anymore. Before this episode, I was at least having fun poking at the rediculousness of everything. Now? *sigh*
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 18, 2013, 10:00:37 AM
The script resembles the worst fanfiction, with more hand-waving than a cruise ship launch.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on May 18, 2013, 11:14:41 AM
The script resembles the worst fanfiction, with more hand-waving than a cruise ship launch.

I think you might have won the thread.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 18, 2013, 12:06:36 PM
It's amusing to put things that way, even if I don't particularly agree with the general intent behind that phrase.

But I will at least point out it's not because there is no "hand-waving" involved though. There certainly is.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 18, 2013, 12:08:30 PM
6:

As probably the sole person here who isn't too uptight to enjoy this (maybe it's from playing way too many Super Robot Wars games that I can just have fun here) I just want to say that Saki pretty much flat out owns after the latest episode.  That is all regarding the episode.

The word is spelled "ridiculous" by the way guys.  I think I've been over this already in this very thread...so yeah people got me, I am a little uptight too, but only when it comes to misspelling a word one is trying to use while trying to criticize a show.

The script resembles the worst fanfiction, with more hand-waving than a cruise ship launch.

I don't think this show is anywhere near average Light Novel adaptation status for me yet otherwise I'd be way more bored while watching and probably have dropped it already.  ;)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: The Big Guy on May 18, 2013, 01:24:33 PM
6:

THEY KILLED MOSES! Now who is going to part the wall of students?

Saki really annoyed me in this episode, not because of her character but because every time she says something bitchy she follows it up with some cryptic reference to her past. There are plenty of ways to make a character sympathetic, but this was the worst possible way because it creates mood whiplash in every scene she's in. Not my favorite episode.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 18, 2013, 04:26:19 PM
I'm surprised. I thought I was the only one that was really frustrated with this show.  Were you guys just unable to stomach the episodes or were you too tired of it to really think about it all again?  I can understand both sentiments.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Arabesque on May 18, 2013, 04:41:30 PM
Episode 6: Death of a Prophet

Moses ;_;

I must say, reading this thread before watching the episode gave me a completely different impression of what the episode ended up actually being. I pictured that I was going to be watching an unhinged Saki falling into Yuno Gasai level of insanity. Instead it was honestly just another serving of the same old VVV cocktail that we had before. It is fascinating seeing the level of disconnect between the reactions and the actual happenings.

On the whole, this was an okay episode. Saki going on an being mischievous was fun to watch, and she won me over for just how shameless and direct her behaviour was. Sure, a lot of what she pulled wasn't cool (and probably very harmful, considering that she just impersonated Haruto and used him to push for her image in front of the entire universe), but it wasn't serious to the level that it was made out to be. I really liked her first sortie into battle and the realization that just because she was indestructible didn't automatically make her fearless. And her channelling Basara from Macross 7 helped a lot to turn the tide lol.

On the flip side, I couldn't help but laugh at how ludicrous her motivation turned out to be. So because she was spurred and hated as an idol and eventually forced into retirement, she decided to become the most famous idol in the entire universe?

I'm undecided about the abuse she was subjected to (was it really from her parents or just from strangers/fellow idols?) and if it was as frequent as she made it out to Haruto when he first confronted her or if she was genuinely lying about it. If I have to guess, I'd say that she mixed a bit of truth into what she initially said, but she was lying about the source of that abuse.

On the other events, I really like how much Shoko had became something of the de facto leader and soul of the students. Her motivational speech this week and the previous two weeks does show she has great charisma (even if it isn't presented in the best fashion ...) and also gives a clear idea for why Haruto ended up being as vengeful when he thought she had died.

Next week should be a new ending. Can't believe it's already the mid point ...
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 18, 2013, 07:10:16 PM
Episode 6: Death of a Prophet

Moses ;_;

I must say, reading this thread before watching the episode gave me a completely different impression of what the episode ended up actually being. I pictured that I was going to be watching an unhinged Saki falling into Yuno Gasai level of insanity. Instead it was honestly just another serving of the same old VVV cocktail that we had before. It is fascinating seeing the level of disconnect between the reactions and the actual happenings.

You and me both.  Before seeing the episode I decided to check out a little bit of the internet threads in my usual haunts on the show just to get a bit of a sneak preview of what I was in for as well as what everybody is going to be complaining about for the next seven days and all I saw was, "Holy shit yo, Saki goes bonkers, it's like Flay Allster x10 and this girl is completely off her rocker."  Flay for those not in the know was a character from way back in 2003's Gundam Seed one of the few mecha shows that always seems to crop up in like every comparison along with Guilty Crown and Code Geass which are apparently the only mecha series to have ever have existed in the history of anime who's major and perhaps only claim to fame was being a top tier spoiled racist bitch who used her body and whatever trickery necessary to try to get the main character Kira Yamato to kill the genetically altered race of people that she feels were solely responsible for her fathers death and then ends up totally betraying the shows heroes at the eleventh hour by giving the means to literally destroy the entire race of genetically altered coordinators in space to the one person very much willing to do it and then proceeding to die with crocodile tears.  She was also portrayed as kind of an all around terrible person for much of the shows run who didn't seem to really learn her lesson in the end so much as just died for her mistakes by being killed off by an even more one dimensional treacherous character. 

Then of course as was the case with just about every Sunrise mecha show that aired before it since the internet become a thing I go to watch the episode and it's nowhere near what was described.  There's no maniacal cackling, no random acts of violence, no crazy faces, no seriously irreparable damage done to anything or anyone and no real lasting betrayal.  Instead what we get is some damaged girl with fixated priorities who thinks she's invincible and is on the fast track to the life she wants for herself.  Probably the worst thing she did was steal Haruto's body and go gallavanting around trying to usurp/ruin his reputation (more on why I suspect this is below) when if she wanted to she could have probably done a whole lot worse than shove pocky in Blondie's mouth.  When you think about it she's theoretically invincible, if she was truly crazy and sociopathic like Q-Vier seems to be not much could have really stopped her from killing her or doing just about anything cause as far as we know getting the Valvrave juice makes you nigh impossible to kill.  She also didn't betray the Module 77 crew and ultimately like the episode title suggested fended off the attack and then came back so yeah she obviously has issues, but is far from irredeemably crazy from what was portrayed in episode 6.

Quote
On the whole, this was an okay episode. Saki going on an being mischievous was fun to watch, and she won me over for just how shameless and direct her behaviour was. Sure, a lot of what she pulled wasn't cool (and probably very harmful, considering that she just impersonated Haruto and used him to push for her image in front of the entire universe), but it wasn't serious to the level that it was made out to be. I really liked her first sortie into battle and the realization that just because she was indestructible didn't automatically make her fearless. And her channelling Basara from Macross 7 helped a lot to turn the tide lol.

On the flip side, I couldn't help but laugh at how ludicrous her motivation turned out to be. So because she was spurred and hated as an idol and eventually forced into retirement, she decided to become the most famous idol in the entire universe?

I'm undecided about the abuse she was subjected to (was it really from her parents or just from strangers/fellow idols?) and if it was as frequent as she made it out to Haruto when he first confronted her or if she was genuinely lying about it. If I have to guess, I'd say that she mixed a bit of truth into what she initially said, but she was lying about the source of that abuse.

Wow somebody on this board actually knows what Macross 7 is?!  :o  That's like totally from 1994.  They made anime back then?!  :P

Seriously though you have no idea how pleasant it is to finally see a comparison that isn't yet another one of take your pick from Guilty Crown, Code Geass or Gundam Seed.  Anyway if I have to guess going by her actions and reactions to the rest of the cast up till now I think it's like this.  Saki has for most of her life probably been put in situations where she's always on the bottom rung of the social ladder while those on top looked down on her as useless trash or some such clique like thing that teenagers subject each other too for whatever reason.  Judging by the body language of the other idols in her flashback scene they were the shit while she was the bitch and ultimately she got served her notice of termination from her producers and that was that.  Bitter city for Saki.  I'm also basing this take on how she reacted to the situation where Blondie was trying to assert herself as the senior popular student that everyone needed to listen to and how the others started doting on her.  She really flew off the handle on that one and then of course tried to bite her.  She doesn't hate her, she wants to switch places with those that are on the upper rungs of the social biting ladder so that for once she doesn't have to be the bitch.  That's why when tempted with the Valvrave there was absolutely zero hesitation and why she equates being famous and popular with being happy and having power over ones destiny.

That's my guess anyway.  As for the slapping and physical abuse, not sure where that factors in yet.  It seems like the people that end up piloting the Valvrave seem to also be characters who have major issues with the way the social order of the world is set up.  For Haruto it seems to be that he doesn't agree with the winner take all imperial-capitalistic philosophy of modern Western Civilization and for Saki it seems to be that she doesn't agree with the whole popular and privileged people get to call the shots and shit on those that are below them in the social ladder philosophy of day to day civilian life.

Quote
On the other events, I really like how much Shoko had became something of the de facto leader and soul of the students. Her motivational speech this week and the previous two weeks does show she has great charisma (even if it isn't presented in the best fashion ...) and also gives a clear idea for why Haruto ended up being as vengeful when he thought she had died.

Next week should be a new ending. Can't believe it's already the mid point ...

Shoko is indeed kind of loco.  Also it's the mid point of season 1 but the quarter point of Valvrave as a whole.  I have a feeling people keep forgetting that this isn't all over in 1 cour.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 19, 2013, 04:16:26 PM
Quote
On the other events, I really like how much Shoko had became something of the de facto leader and soul of the students. Her motivational speech this week and the previous two weeks does show she has great charisma (even if it isn't presented in the best fashion ...) and also gives a clear idea for why Haruto ended up being as vengeful when he thought she had died.

Shoko is the most male shounen lead character I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on May 23, 2013, 06:54:10 PM
7:
Okay... By a show of posts, who predicted this week's death by the preview of last week's episode?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 23, 2013, 08:06:08 PM
7:

Yes, the death was the most predictable part going by the preview and also the least interesting since the character was so minor. Can't really say anything positive about it. Rather by the book, all things considered, without much in the way of variety.

But I was far more intrigued by the pre-credits scene...and I was also far more entertained by L-Elf's antics. Yes, they are implausible, though that's beating a dead horse at this point. Either way, at the very least the possible alliance between Haruto and L-Elf seems to be back on schedule.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on May 23, 2013, 08:11:33 PM
7

Wait, a 200 year time skip?  Why?   Wait, an unimportant side character death?   Why?

This show has some weird plotting.   If there's anything the show innovates on, it's the completely unorthodox storytelling.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 23, 2013, 09:17:41 PM
7

Wait, a 200 year time skip?  Why?   Wait, an unimportant side character death?   Why?

1. To tease at material that'll become relevant near the end of the season or during the second one (in other words, the other 12 episodes).

The seemingly throwaway narration from one of the earlier episodes also brought some foreshadowing that might tie into this.

2. To motivate the green-hair guy, who likes money and used to hang around her,  into piloting a Valvrave and this is one of the stock methods.

That and in order to start shifting from this status quo to a new one, which will ultimately lead us to the future (or, conversely, which will lead the future back to us!).
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on May 23, 2013, 10:39:43 PM
7:
Intro part placates all the Saki fans (me). "Yes we won't kill her off Nena-like at least in the first 12 episodes. Promise!!!"
Death near the end finally gets shit rolling. Yay.
If you want to understand this show, best go looking at the buttons it wants to push.

Edit: I guess you can take the above as a restatement of "watch with a beer or two or three"...
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 26, 2013, 04:14:00 PM
7:

Ha ha!  This show.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on May 27, 2013, 10:53:39 AM
7:

Is Saki the main character now or something?  It almost feels like it lately though maybe that's also to pimp the new manga.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on May 30, 2013, 05:15:51 PM
8:

Those flashbacks.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on May 30, 2013, 06:47:30 PM
8:

L-Elf is definitely the best part of this show. 666/100.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on May 30, 2013, 10:54:31 PM
8:

A pretty reasonable episode by Valvrave standards. Which might not be saying much, but it did feel less insane than some of the others.

Yes, someone died last time. Thankfully they didn't spend the entire episode on it. Just enough to get the point across.

More importantly....FINALLY, IT'S CONTRACT TIME!

Also, the implication of why L-Elf does what L-Elf does: to replace the Space Nazis with the Space Nazi Princess. Or at least that's what I got.

Plus some faking us out on who gets to the next robot, but that'll be resolved next week.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on May 31, 2013, 06:59:06 AM
8:

"I´m the sugar to your coffee."

There are no words.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 01, 2013, 05:51:39 PM
8:

L-Elf - Reader of the Script!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 01, 2013, 06:48:21 PM
Actually, is it ever explained why he's the most competent character?  The show just ruins any of his chances early on and now it's giving him everything.  I mean, he's the most competent due to being surrounded by complete idiots.  However, he almost always does something right, even when everything is going horribly.  You're right TypicalIdiotFan.  He might as be reading the script off screen.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 01, 2013, 08:48:19 PM
There's a profound difference between master strategists and people whose "kekkaku dori" reach omnipotent levels of "bullshittery".  L-Elf is the latter.

Actually, so far his plans have read like some of the utterly prophetic tactics of Zhuge Liang.  Which, if you've ever read the Luo Guangzhong version of the Three Kingdoms era, you realize is given a bit of a... dramatic flavoring.

In other words, he's reading the script.  I mean, this episode alone pulls arguably the most horseshit maneuver I've ever seen.

Based on what the show has told us directly, this is what L-Elf knows:

-He knows Drossian tactics.
-He knows they've used the metallic boomerang thing before.
-He arguably knows the tendencies of the other Drossian soldiers.
-He knows Haruto is a weenie.

Based on this episode, L-Elf knew...:
-That there were easily towable surface ships in the JIOR military.
-That A-Drei would use them to attack the school.
-That there was a specific point he could have Valvrave shoot on the colony that would eject the water into space, changing the laws of physics so that the water would INSTANTLY ****ING FREEZE to the boomerangs (instead of, y'know, boiling away in a vacuum), and disrupt the surface ships enough, but NOT DECOMPRESS THE ENTIRE COLONY.

Mind you, he was imprisoned / unconscious for most of this episode.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on June 01, 2013, 11:47:51 PM
Mind you, he was imprisoned / unconscious for most of this episode.
He obviously accounted for that in his plans. Obviously. No, really.
L turned up to 11. That sums it up pretty much.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 02, 2013, 07:57:22 AM
There's a profound difference between master strategists and people whose "kekkaku dori" reach omnipotent levels of "bullshittery".  L-Elf is the latter.

Actually, so far his plans have read like some of the utterly prophetic tactics of Zhuge Liang.  Which, if you've ever read the Luo Guangzhong version of the Three Kingdoms era, you realize is given a bit of a... dramatic flavoring.

In other words, he's reading the script.  I mean, this episode alone pulls arguably the most horseshit maneuver I've ever seen.

Based on what the show has told us directly, this is what L-Elf knows:

-He knows Drossian tactics.
-He knows they've used the metallic boomerang thing before.
-He arguably knows the tendencies of the other Drossian soldiers.
-He knows Haruto is a weenie.

Based on this episode, L-Elf knew...:
-That there were easily towable surface ships in the JIOR military.
-That A-Drei would use them to attack the school.
-That there was a specific point he could have Valvrave shoot on the colony that would eject the water into space, changing the laws of physics so that the water would INSTANTLY ****ING FREEZE to the boomerangs (instead of, y'know, boiling away in a vacuum), and disrupt the surface ships enough, but NOT DECOMPRESS THE ENTIRE COLONY.

Mind you, he was imprisoned / unconscious for most of this episode.

Yeah this much I can agree on, so many unlikely things like A-Drei taking over the naval ships in a colony in space and the Valvrave's being just outside the colony on the side the lake was on for his whole strategy to work out as it did that it just feels a little too contrived this week for me to not laugh a bit.  Doesn't mean the whole battle wasn't awesome, just highly improbable and points to much of the logic in this shows universe revolving around making L-Elf's plans work first and then taking it from there as it pertains to depicting the actual fights and events.  I suppose an argument can be made that L-Elf would know A-Drei would use the naval ships as a surprise against the school HQ since there's no way the students would ever predict it and because Dorssia is running low on ideas with their usual tactics not working, but then that raises the question of why a colony module with limited size and space would need naval ships as internal protection.

Oh well I don't think it's worth thinking to hard about because as I said making L-Elf's plans work and look cool comes first and the rest of how the fights are depicted and what factors into the other characters tactics and what forces they use comes second.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on June 02, 2013, 09:18:37 AM
Actually, is it ever explained why he's the most competent character?  The show just ruins any of his chances early on and now it's giving him everything.  I mean, he's the most competent due to being surrounded by complete idiots.  However, he almost always does something right, even when everything is going horribly.  You're right TypicalIdiotFan.  He might as be reading the script off screen.
Does it really matter? All I want is to see Haruto be sugar to L-Elf's bitter coffee. Is that so much to ask?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on June 02, 2013, 11:31:27 AM
There's a profound difference between master strategists and people whose "kekkaku dori" reach omnipotent levels of "bullshittery".  L-Elf is the latter.

Then the following question would be...did you happen to expect otherwise? I think that's all been clearly established at this point.

Quote
Actually, so far his plans have read like some of the utterly prophetic tactics of Zhuge Liang.  Which, if you've ever read the Luo Guangzhong version of the Three Kingdoms era, you realize is given a bit of a... dramatic flavoring.

Absolutely, but the show practically highlights that much by itself. L-Elf is literally called a "prophet" a couple of times by either himself or other characters, and episode three was titled "L-Elf's Prophecy" after all. They're embracing this aspect of the character, not accidentally going down that route and expecting you to think that L-Elf's predictions are remotely realistic, at least not most of the time. Even Lelouch's plans were sometimes more plausible and credible in comparison.

In other words, the creators know L-Elf is pulling off ridiculous predictions and stunts, which they are almost certainly having a fair amount of fun putting into the show.

Mind you, the only things that can apparently catch L-Elf off guard seem to be these:

1. His lack of social skills and, by extension, not knowing enough about certain people beforehand.

2. The mysteries of the Valvraves or the space vampires they create.

Which is probably why all of his reading the script is going to amount to little or nothing, in the end, when those two factors combine to surprise him again.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 02, 2013, 05:48:23 PM
AH,

I'm not questioning that the show is bludgeoning us over the head with L-Elf's "greatness", I'm saying that it is ridiculous, much like the rest of this show.  It is just another cog in this poetic piece of lunacy.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on June 07, 2013, 02:39:24 AM
9:

I guess this development was expected in part at least. It did end up more cheesy than I thought it would, though.
The old "don't come over to my side" thing - really?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 07, 2013, 06:23:16 AM
9: So, this show is so stupid, I'm beyond voicing every complaint.  If I actually took the time to write all of my complaints, I would be here for a century.  However, I will at least put a few that have been really nagging me.

What's so important about this one girl?  Why did we effectively watch every character mourn her for 2 episodes?  We, the audience, barely knew her.  Tone it down writers.  We get it.  She was a sad loss.  Now just stop everyone from worrying about more casualties when they lost 1 important person. 

There's also still no reason that L-Elf is beyond prophetic and edging towards "I read the script off screen".  He just sort of knows everybody's chances to get into a robot to throw away their humanity despite barely knowing them.  Did he get down and really talk to them about their feelings in the weeks of time skipped like a bad psychiatrist? 

On that note, why is everybody so eager to get into machines that make them vampire monsters?  Is humanity just overrated?  Was there a new trend in throwing it away when I wasn't looking?  I mean forget the whole pop-singer episode complaint about her not thinking.  At least she has the excuse that it was a momentary decision.  The last two actually thought about and then said to get rid of their humanity. 

Another oddity is that they still have power.  Unless I missed something, didn't the colony work by rotating around the sun?  Disregarding the weird fact about the moon being neutral territory, wouldn't that cut their already low power supply?

That's all of main complaints.  Aside from those, I was either groaning, or face-palming.  If it was really stupid, I just applied my face to my desk.  In that manner, TypicalIdiotFan's avatar expresses my frustration perfectly.

Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on June 07, 2013, 06:54:30 AM
What's so important about this one girl?  Why did we effectively watch every character mourn her for 2 episodes?  We, the audience, barely knew her.  Tone it down writers.  We get it.  She was a sad loss.  Now just stop everyone from worrying about more casualties when they lost 1 important person. 

That's an exaggeration on your part. The focus of this week's episode was how and why her potential boyfriend would finally get into the robot, not the dead girl herself.

Quote
There's also still no reason that L-Elf is beyond prophetic and edging towards "I read the script off screen".  He just sort of knows everybody's chances to get into a robot to throw away their humanity despite barely knowing them.  Did he get down and really talk to them about their feelings in the weeks of time skipped like a bad psychiatrist? 

He's apparently been observing them for a while and has gained access to data on the students, so it's just more of  L-Elf being L-Elf.

Quote
On that note, why is everybody so eager to get into machines that make them vampire monsters?  Is humanity just overrated?  Was there a new trend in throwing it away when I wasn't looking?  I mean forget the whole pop-singer episode complaint about her not thinking.  At least she has the excuse that it was a momentary decision.  The last two actually thought about and then said to get rid of their humanity. 

Well, you need to throw it away in order to pilot any of these giant robots. If you don't, then tough luck.

Quote
Another oddity is that they still have power.  Unless I missed something, didn't the colony work by rotating around the sun?  Disregarding the weird fact about the moon being neutral territory, wouldn't that cut their already low power supply?

You're assuming that's the one and only power source, which I believe still hasn't been confirmed anywhere. That's not necessarily the only alternative.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 07, 2013, 07:27:00 AM
AH, it's an exaggeration by one episode.  We had an entire episode based on a girl that was just in the background for the rest of the show.  I get that she's important to the characters, but the writers and director need some form of talent to make US care for her.  Otherwise, she's just a girl that died and it leaves you in frustration for the characters even more.

As for the L-Elf thing, I get that he's some sort of prophet.  However, can we get some form of explanation or will the show continue to use non-descriptive time skips and miracles to show that he's uber smart and above any of the other characters?  You know what other show didn't label their time skips?  Maoyuu Maou Yuusha.  You know what non-labeled time skips did for that show? It ruined it, along with all of the other failing factors.  This show doesn't need any more help to fail at creating some form of emotion.

I also get the whole "throw away your humanity to pilot the robot" thing.  That's an established fact.  However, in any other situation, these guys would consider and say no to it way more often.  This isn't like a walk in the park.  There's no "Yeah, I'll just be fighting along with you for a while, Haruto" here.  You'll probably be fighting with him for at least 100+ years, judging from the random "She'll live!" time skip earlier in the show.  This is like signing your soul to the devil.  It's like the devil shaking the keys to a shiny robot and then saying "If you sign away your soul, I'll give this to you", demanding you sign the contract with your blood. 

You might be right with the power thing, but it would make sense to actually make your main power source the sunlight when your colony orbits a burning sun.  If they have some other source, kudos.  Otherwise, the whole moon thing probably wouldn't help out too much.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 07, 2013, 01:31:42 PM
9: So, this show is so stupid, I'm beyond voicing every complaint.  If I actually took the time to write all of my complaints, I would be here for a century.  However, I will at least put a few that have been really nagging me.

What's so important about this one girl?  Why did we effectively watch every character mourn her for 2 episodes?  We, the audience, barely knew her.  Tone it down writers.  We get it.  She was a sad loss.  Now just stop everyone from worrying about more casualties when they lost 1 important person. 

There's also still no reason that L-Elf is beyond prophetic and edging towards "I read the script off screen".  He just sort of knows everybody's chances to get into a robot to throw away their humanity despite barely knowing them.  Did he get down and really talk to them about their feelings in the weeks of time skipped like a bad psychiatrist? 

On that note, why is everybody so eager to get into machines that make them vampire monsters?  Is humanity just overrated?  Was there a new trend in throwing it away when I wasn't looking?  I mean forget the whole pop-singer episode complaint about her not thinking.  At least she has the excuse that it was a momentary decision.  The last two actually thought about and then said to get rid of their humanity. 

Another oddity is that they still have power.  Unless I missed something, didn't the colony work by rotating around the sun?  Disregarding the weird fact about the moon being neutral territory, wouldn't that cut their already low power supply?

That's all of main complaints.  Aside from those, I was either groaning, or face-palming.  If it was really stupid, I just applied my face to my desk.  In that manner, TypicalIdiotFan's avatar expresses my frustration perfectly.

Believe me you don't need to convince anyone here that you have tons to complain about.  ;)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 07, 2013, 03:19:04 PM
Trust me, I used to come in trying to enjoy this show.  I then came to dislike it, but I still want to see any good parts.  Before I watch this, I watch shows that keep me in a good mood, to give Valvrave at least some chance.  As you can see, I'm still quite critical, but I I like to think I give the show some leeway.  Some episodes get me to the "face to my desk" level, but it's actually been good about cutting down the stupid lately.  With that said, that last part was for emphasis and exaggeration.  I tend to stick to the groan part lately, mostly due to a lack of saki acting extremely stupid. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on June 07, 2013, 08:30:42 PM
9:
L-Elf = Badass. Nuff said!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on June 07, 2013, 08:45:41 PM
9

Well, that was an Evangelion-esque twist.  Given that every single episode of this series had something similar, there was no real emotional impact, but it's fun going down this rabbit hole.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 08, 2013, 04:58:32 PM
9:

Not sure what Haruto is pissed about.  Just because HE didn't read the script doesn't mean he gets to be mad at THE PUPPETMASTAH.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 08, 2013, 07:16:33 PM
TypicalIdiotFan, L-Elf obviously bribed the writers of the show to only let him read the script.  Where would the fun be if every character just got their hands on the script and made everything happen without screaming, yelling, or crying?  The drama is an important part of this amazing show of stupidity.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 09, 2013, 10:56:14 AM
Trust me, I used to come in trying to enjoy this show.  I then came to dislike it, but I still want to see any good parts.  Before I watch this, I watch shows that keep me in a good mood, to give Valvrave at least some chance.  As you can see, I'm still quite critical, but I I like to think I give the show some leeway.  Some episodes get me to the "face to my desk" level, but it's actually been good about cutting down the stupid lately.  With that said, that last part was for emphasis and exaggeration.  I tend to stick to the groan part lately, mostly due to a lack of saki acting extremely stupid.

The things you've said regarding this show since day one really make it hard if not impossible to take this explanation at face value.  I'm not judging you for not liking the show or anything, but I really don't buy your reasons and the assertion that you ever planned on giving this show any sort of chance to be anything to you other than how you describe it.  Reason being primarily that pretty much all your focus and posts on this forum to date have been solely about the shows you claim to dislike the most.  When pretty much all your time is spent focusing on being overwhelmingly negative about everything it's extremely hard to buy that you are trying to give something at least some sort of chance.  I wouldn't even call it being pointed, witty, critical, or observational, at this point it's just pure over the top complaining to me.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 09, 2013, 11:33:08 AM
  KS, as much as you think I'm an over exaggerated portrait of a person that just dislikes everything, I'm not.

  In my opinion, stupid fun is all well and good, but you're riding on a fine line if you go for that.  It's the same fine line that you walk when you go for witty comedy.  In witty comedy, if you go to far towards to the stupid jokes or try too hard to come up with "witty" situations, it'll fail.  In stupid fun, you want to laugh at the bombastic situations and decent humor.  You don't want to laugh at characters that can predict any situation and situations that make no sense, combined with other characters that take the stupid to a high degree of "What are you even thinking?". 

  Take Gurren Lagann as a good example of stupid fun.  The characters aren't psychic or beyond stupid, just limited in knowledge.  The drama is convincing because the small cast allows you to actually get attched to them,  not that random school girl with glasses that we saw every couple of episodes doing teenage girl things. Lagann's action is bombastic in a way that's so beyond belief, it works when combined with the characters that you grow attached to.  Valvrave has the stunningly bland/annoying cast of Haruto, a teenage pop singer, a hateful man that gave up humanity to revenge his dead girlfriend, and a stereotypical overexcited jock with a fascination over guns. .  That doesn't exactly make the action better.  Gurren Lagann's story has it's levity, but it knows when you want to laugh and when you want to see it move along.  Valvrave, on the other hand, likes to switch between badly done school drama and life and death situations all in one episode.

  Granted, Gurren Lagann isn't perfect, but it succeeds on riding that line much more.  Don't take this the wrong way either.  I want my entertainment to be good.  On the other hand, when it isn't, I can be and have the right, if I remain civil about it, to be critical.  I'm not an angry old man out to hate everything in the world.  I'm not angry at you for defending the show either.  There's been some interesting discussions had.  I'm fine with it as long as it remains civil and we both have some understanding afterwords.

Edit: Fixed spelling mistakes.  Excuse the bad typing.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 09, 2013, 12:33:49 PM
  KS, as much as you think I'm an over exaggerated portrait of a person that just dislikes everything, I'm not.

  In my opinion, stupid fun is all well and good, but you're riding on a fine line if you go for that.  It's the same fine line that you walk when you go for witty comedy.  In witty comedy, if you go to far towards to the stupid jokes or try too hard to come up with "witty" situations, it'll fail.  In stupid fun, you want to laugh at the bombastic situations and decent humor.  You don't want to laugh at characters that can predict any situation and situations that make no sense, combined with other characters that take the stupid to a high degree of "What are you even thinking?". 

  Take Gurren Lagann as a good example of stupid fun.  The characters aren't physic or beyond stupid, just limited in knowledge.  The drama is convincing because the small cast allows you to actually get attched to them,  not that random school girl with glasses that we saw every couple of episodes doing teenage girl things. Lagann's action is bombastic in a way that's so beyond belief, it works when combined with the characters that you grow attached to.  Valvrave has the stunningly bland/annoying cast of Haruto, a teenage pop singer, a hateful man that gave up humanity to revenge his dead girlfriend, and a stereotypical overexcited jock with a fascination over guns. .  That doesn't exactly make the action better.  Gurren Lagann's story has it's levity, but it knows when you want to laugh and when you want to see it move along.  Valvrave, on the other hand, likes to switch between badly done school drama and life and death situations all in one episode.

  Granted, Gurren Lagann isn't perfect, but it succeeds on riding that line much more.  Don't take this the wrong way either.  I want my entertainment to be good.  On the other hand, when it isn't, I can be and have the right, if I remain civil about it, to be critical.  I'm not an angry old man out to hate everything in the world.  I'm not angry at you for defending the show either.  There's been some interesting discussions had.  I'm fine with it as long as it remains civil and we both have some understanding afterwords.

This is why I said in the other thread despite the fact that I'm mostly having fun with this season I'm also suffering from a bit of brain drain since the shows I've kept are mostly of the blockbuster and silly concept variety.  I wish I had some more good solid character drama to sink my teeth into and balance it all out, but alas it's just not there for me this season.

For me though there is at least more to Valvrave than what you describe which are the on the surface appeals.  Then again this is the kind of series that is constructed to appeal to fans of over the top super robot shows like me so I am probably more in tune with what it is doing than most.  That said if I had one wish it would be for a little more grounding and focus in a few areas relating to character development and I'm not talking about being more "realistic" so much as giving the cast more room to grow and interact naturally in ways that don't just involve comedic situations or them having to fight a battle.  I do personally wish there were more scenes like the one in the recent episode between Haruto and Shoko hiding in the bushes and worrying about Kyuuma where you could feel some natural chemistry between them.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 09, 2013, 12:52:22 PM
If I could call it anything, I would probably say that they have their focus is in all of the wrong spots.  They want this large ensemble full of characters that all could interact and give you drama, but they they don't give those characters any development.  This leads to what I've dubbed "Chronic stupid".  It happens when you don't see any of the reasoning behind their actions or their motivations.  You only see their stupid acts and the accompanying consequences. Even if you do see motivations, they aren't deep or convincing.  They seem like something the writer came up with when he realized that his character hasn't gotten any development beforehand.

If they had left most of the school drama as either a natural transition into serious matters or a tiny sprinkle of fun when it's called for(aka: not in the middle of serious political issues), let us focus on more than just Haruto and L-Elf for character development, and let us get used the characters, I don't think it would be as bad as it is.  The problem they have is that they didn't leave themselves any room for that and now we've got a cast of  flat characters that just give up their humanity for the most petty reasons.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 09, 2013, 02:07:47 PM
If I could call it anything, I would probably say that they have their focus is in all of the wrong spots.  They want this large ensemble full of characters that all could interact and give you drama, but they they don't give those characters any development.  This leads to what I've dubbed "Chronic stupid".  It happens when you don't see any of the reasoning behind their actions or their motivations.  You only see their stupid acts and the accompanying consequences. Even if you do see motivations, they aren't deep or convincing.  They seem like something the writer came up with when he realized that his character hasn't gotten any development beforehand.

If they had left most of the school drama as either a natural transition into serious matters or a tiny sprinkle of fun when it's called for(aka: not in the middle of serious political issues), let us focus on more than just Haruto and L-Elf for character development, and let us get used the characters, I don't think it would be as bad as it is.  The problem they have is that they didn't leave themselves any room for that and now we've got a cast of  flat characters that just give up their humanity for the most petty reasons.

See that doesn't necessarily equate to out and out bad for me,  I just see areas where it could be better.   The alternative to good isn't necessarily bad, I want to see where the show goes still and it looks like we're getting into some of the reveal and hopefully development phase of the anime now that the world has been introduced, it just so happens that it's probably going to coincide with the end of the season and the break.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on June 13, 2013, 10:16:49 AM
10:

The writer has balls made of steel. And they're huge.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 13, 2013, 02:38:28 PM
Balls of steel? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE3KdcTgrno)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 13, 2013, 04:10:27 PM
10:

Hehe, Sunrise.   And OS-tan is horny.  This is like giving HAL 9000 a libido.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on June 13, 2013, 06:20:00 PM
10:

Valvrave really is a fearless show. It just doesn't give a sh*t what it does and it works.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on June 13, 2013, 06:56:12 PM
10

Holy crap.  This show is so meta that it deserves awards.  Bravo to the writers for pushing the envelope in such a retarded fashion.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 13, 2013, 07:04:00 PM
OS-rape-tan? :)

This is why you don't sell your soul, folks!  The computers take over.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 13, 2013, 07:23:37 PM
I should point out that, at least as far as the non-/a/ parts of the forums, this isn't going over as badly as you would historically expect.  I guess vampire-zombie sex isn't quite so interesting, anymore?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 13, 2013, 07:49:42 PM
10:
Amazing!  It's like giving up your humanity might mean that you .... gave up your humanity!  Did no one even begin to even remotely read the prompt before clicking yes?  Or was it in a language they couldn't read? 

Also, kudos for this show for going and giving you a message.  It involves a badly done rape scene that's painful to watch for all of the wrong reasons.  What's the message? I don't know.  I think they just wanted you to gasp at this horrid display as you watch an idiot get elected for delivering snacks.

I can't get past that.  The common mentality among the students is that she's a great leader .... for being a happy idiot with little to no plans of any kind.  Even that egotistical blond haired kid would have done better.  For all of his talk, he at least had some ideas about actual management of a pseudo nation.  Instead, we got the girl that randomly threatened to take off her clothing, sung a Christmas song to break up an argument, and delivered snacks to a random group, proving that she would make a great leader and representative.  Her motto?  Just do you what you want, because YOLO works so well with politics.  Wait ...... it isn't.  It's actually the equivalent to political suicide. 

I can't wait to see how the writers somehow make the YOLO thing work through the ultimate contrivances and convince you that they can't seem to get the idea of "subtlety" right.  It's not subtlety to barely ever show signs of this girl being sad over her father.  That's so subtle, it's invisible.  You could have maybe shown little personal moments or even small micro-expressions on her face that suggest her emotions.  Sadly, I don't think the writers thought that far ahead.  Granted, if someone points out small moments I missed, go ahead.  However, I doubt there was many.

Speaking of politics, you know that would be cool to see? The politics of the wannabe Roman Empire in space.  At least that would involve real subtlety.  There's factions, drama that doesn't involve stupid teenagers, and possible intelligence in the writing.  Judging from the rare scenes with our antagonists, it seems like movers and shakers are trying to get ahead.  I think this would be really interesting to watch.  It wouldn't need to be constant, but enough to balance out the badly done drama of the school.  If you aren't going to spend the time to develop the characters well, at least spread the love around and show us some other aspects of the universe. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 13, 2013, 08:22:47 PM
I should point out that, at least as far as the non-/a/ parts of the forums, this isn't going over as badly as you would historically expect.  I guess vampire-zombie sex isn't quite so interesting, anymore?

I'd be lying if I said I particularly cared about or placed any sort of value in what any part of 4chan thinks about anything.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 13, 2013, 08:25:21 PM
I should point out that, at least as far as the non-/a/ parts of the forums, this isn't going over as badly as you would historically expect.  I guess vampire-zombie sex isn't quite so interesting, anymore?

I'd be lying if I said I particularly cared about or placed any sort of value in what any part of 4chan thinks about anything.

Actually, I believe /a/ is quite happy, though I never visit there.  Which is why I was surprised about the rest of the places.  Even MAL is pretty understated about it.  I think the trope has reached critical "meh" point in much of the anime fandom.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 13, 2013, 08:39:42 PM
I do have to ask.  Besides the shock value, why did they insert a random rape scene into the show?  Did they just want the something to counter the seemingly joyous election?  I mean, I don't mind it as much if it's done in a tasteful manner for real character development.  However, it just seemed ... cheap when it was used here. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 13, 2013, 08:44:45 PM
I should point out that, at least as far as the non-/a/ parts of the forums, this isn't going over as badly as you would historically expect.  I guess vampire-zombie sex isn't quite so interesting, anymore?

I'd be lying if I said I particularly cared about or placed any sort of value in what any part of 4chan thinks about anything.

Actually, I believe /a/ is quite happy, though I never visit there.  Which is why I was surprised about the rest of the places.  Even MAL is pretty understated about it.  I think the trope has reached critical "meh" point in much of the anime fandom.

I suppose that would be sort of odd as both those places typical responses to things tend to be absolute opinions as opposed to anything approaching reserved commentary.  It's usually either everyone goes in with party hats and long winded speeches about the absolute genius of the writers and general staff or they go in guns blazing and just blow the roof off of the thread with a constant spiel of how utterly devoid of any sort of quality the writing of a show is and how nobody knows what they are doing and how they should all lose their jobs etc.  It's exactly why I don't really like reading or enjoy visiting those forums because it all feels so damn forced and like the reaction and commentary is pre-determined pending actual content to use for peoples talking points.  I have nothing to gain from just reading people who complain and criticize or praise and idolize constantly and absolutely as their sole contribution to a discussion.  Like some tropes it gets old really bloody fast.  :-\

Anyway I don't think these folks are getting to the moon in one piece if at all.  There's too many people after them and too much to lose for the powers that are after them in letting the Valvraves and the Module 77 institute get out of their reach as has been pointed out in the last episode.  They now have  pretty much every major power in the universe looking to seize their little piece of land and the only things still standing in their way are L-Elf's wizardry and the Valvrave's which while formidable probably can be neutralized with the right plans and taking advantage of the internal turmoil, politicking and relationship drama that is going on in the colony atm and which could boil over and disrupt everything at the 11th hour.  Unlike some here I'm honestly quite interested to see how the remainder of the season turns out and who makes it out alive and what becomes of the current situation. 

Not being immensely angered by some of the sillier aspects of this show and finding it pretty consistent in it's own internal zany logic so far I've been having a blast since the 6th episode onward.  I think it's actually my second favorite show from this season after Attack on Titan and edges the likes of Maou-Sama and Gargantia by having something interesting going on in every single episode save perhaps 5.  There's a lot to be said for a show keeping things consistently entertaining and worth dissecting.  God knows it's a hell of a lot more than most shows are doing this season.

I do have to ask.  Besides the shock value, why did they insert a random rape scene into the show?  Did they just want the something to counter the seemingly joyous election?  I mean, I don't mind it as much if it's done in a tasteful manner for real character development.  However, it just seemed ... cheap when it was used here.


So you'll have something else to complain, moralize and miss the point about.

Though seriously I do have my theories that I've shared elsewhere, but I feel it would be 100% wasted in this particular venue to share them.  I simply don't think they would be valued and worse possibly twisted around and soundly rejected because they don't conform to the viewpoint people want.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 13, 2013, 09:00:31 PM
For how much I watch this to keep my morbidly curious side happy(Even that side has limits that his show hasn't reached), I want to see where this goes.  For me, It's less "I want to see these character succeed" and more "I want to see how horrendously everything goes wrong".

As for the whole "hate every part of it" deal, I'm close.  If I could call it anything, I would call it disappointment.  It's the thing that keeps me watching.  The show never seems to utilize it well, but I keep hoping something good comes out of it all.  I really thought that the politics of the space empire was interesting.  If the show showed more than a couple of minutes every few episodes, I think it would be better for it.  The characters seemingly have really good moments only for events to show that they haven't learned anything or display such a large amount of teenage angst, I wonder where all that development went.

The episodic recounts only occur because they come right after I finish the episodes, when I feel so strongly about it all.  I tend to cool down after that or after I enjoy a show that really makes me happy.  I can enjoy a good mech show any day.  It's just the reliance on all these tropes and writing crutches that kills it for me. 

Edit: As for the rape thing: I get that they wanted character development, but it doesn't work as well they want.  Rape is a hard thing to portray without slipping over that fine line from "acceptable" to "distasteful"  If what it does could be done just as well with other events,  I feel like rape should be a last resort of any writer.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on June 13, 2013, 09:14:47 PM
I do have to ask.  Besides the shock value, why did they insert a random rape scene into the show?  Did they just want the something to counter the seemingly joyous election?  I mean, I don't mind it as much if it's done in a tasteful manner for real character development.  However, it just seemed ... cheap when it was used here.

Sorry KS, I'm going to do it. Anyway, Commander Cain (The Dorrsian commander just in case) mentioned (Last episode? Or maybe the one before) that soon would be the time to reproduce. Seeing as how he both seems related to OS-tan, perhaps his sister or mother (Hey, might as well take after Evangelion while we are at it.) and since he has the strange mark on his neck that is similar to the mark on Haruto's face leads me to believe he somehow has control over Haruto's "attacks." As for why only him, well since the OS-tans don't appear with the other Valvraves, perhaps only the red one is special (It was the only one not with the others after all). Logic! This show might just have it!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 13, 2013, 09:20:59 PM
I do have to ask.  Besides the shock value, why did they insert a random rape scene into the show?  Did they just want the something to counter the seemingly joyous election?  I mean, I don't mind it as much if it's done in a tasteful manner for real character development.  However, it just seemed ... cheap when it was used here.

Sorry KS, I'm going to do it. Anyway, Commander Cain (The Dorrsian commander just in case) mentioned (Last episode? Or maybe the one before) that soon would be the time to reproduce. Seeing as how he both seems related to OS-tan, perhaps his sister or mother (Hey, might as well take after Evangelion while we are at it.) and since he has the strange mark on his neck that is similar to the mark on Haruto's face leads me to believe he somehow has control over Haruto's "attacks." As for why only him, well since the OS-tans don't appear with the other Valvraves, perhaps only the red one is special (It was the only one not with the others after all). Logic! This show might just have it!

There's a "the Red one always *arrives* faster" joke I won't make.  Use your imagination.

But, I think the place this is going: MASSIVE DEATH.  The series has already gone to the "bad sex" scene, it means the massive slaughter is going to end this cour.  Has to happen now.  (This is a split-cour show)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 13, 2013, 09:30:13 PM
SQA, it's hard not to believe it.  At this point, their elected leader just went "Who needs to be serious? I think we should all just yell YOLO and do crazy stuff!'  You might as well be asking for massive death on the part of most of the characters.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Yggberry on June 13, 2013, 09:57:35 PM
Typical men, go for the boobs and ignore the face.

I don't think this is considered a rape since Rukino really did give consent. But I don't think this plot is necessary other than to stir up some drama for the viewer. I never read this manga (Is there a manga version at all?) before so I don't know how this will turn out. But it feels way too predictable and mundane. I just want to ask the writers: "Really? Is that really necessary?"
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 13, 2013, 10:23:58 PM
SQA, it's hard not to believe it.  At this point, their elected leader just went "Who needs to be serious? I think we should all just yell YOLO and do crazy stuff!'  You might as well be asking for massive death on the part of most of the characters.

You know, there might be a current Japanese political angle to this that we're not quite getting as non-Japanese viewers. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 13, 2013, 10:30:47 PM
Typical men, go for the boobs and ignore the face.

I don't think this is considered a rape since Rukino really did give consent. But I don't think this plot is necessary other than to stir up some drama for the viewer. I never read this manga (Is there a manga version at all?) before so I don't know how this will turn out. But it feels way too predictable and mundane. I just want to ask the writers: "Really? Is that really necessary?"

It's definitely one of those "shock" moments that, well, isn't very shocking anymore.  It's been done before.  And the victims in this situation are both... immortal vampire-zombies that gave up their humanity.  But I can say one thing is that Haruto is going to get some major existential angst... maybe. 

Oh, and this is completely anime-original.  I believe there is manga adaptation, but the series is an original Sunrise creation.  Apparently they decided to throw in every crazy plot idea they could come up with and see what happens. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on June 14, 2013, 12:31:36 AM
10

The scene in question was  ridiculous and tasteless, but I do think I can see what they're doing with this in the grand scheme of things. And it seems interesting.

Of course, there's also a clear attempt to shock the audience with a twist while still semi-laughing it off via the VVV-1 OS girl's excited expressions and broken English phrases. The show is basically pointing out that the nature of these events is both dumb and ironic, despite their tragic and dramatic undertones, but I don't think it'll amount to nothing in the context of the story. Quite the contrary. I'd call it predictable in the short term, to an extent, but not entirely typical in the medium-long term consequences (that is, what this means for season two).
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on June 14, 2013, 05:03:43 AM
10: "Let´s all do what we feel like!"

Next episode: "HOW COULD YOU HARUTO??"


I don´t understand why they have elections at all. It´s not like they are a actual country or something or the whole thing is not just a popularity contest. At least hey should have Shoko go with whatever the student council president planned because other than having a good time she has no plans for the future.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on June 14, 2013, 07:08:17 AM
I just don't even know anymore.

I was going to try and have fun watching this, but the election scene was, well, I couldn't, I was just staring at the screen with weary resignation.

Also the rape scene was confirmation that Valvrave is a show that wants to take itself seriously. Try defending against that now.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 14, 2013, 11:53:41 AM
Oh, almost forgot a joke:

Haruto will, now, not die a vampire-zombie virgin in a 1000 years.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 14, 2013, 12:27:04 PM
Oh, almost forgot a joke:

Haruto will, now, not die a vampire-zombie virgin in a 1000 years.


:o

I just don't even know anymore.

I was going to try and have fun watching this, but the election scene was, well, I couldn't, I was just staring at the screen with weary resignation.

Also the rape scene was confirmation that Valvrave is a show that wants to take itself seriously. Try defending against that now.

I don't see why anyone would really need or want to defend against a stipulation for the show they never made in the first place.  If one never decided that the show could never have more serious or dramatic moments at any point then there's really nothing to defend in this case. 

I can't be the only one that feels like a scene that happened at the end of this weeks episode seems pretty in line with something that Valvrave the Liberator would have going on given how teen angst situations have been a pretty steady theme in the show.  I think the real question that should be being asked is is this taking that aspect of the show too far and into territory that is too uncomfortable for it's viewers and simply for shock value that will be forgotten or is it a prelude to the next chapter of the show.  I think that question is better left answered by the penultimate and final episodes than right now at this particular moment in time.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on June 14, 2013, 02:13:01 PM
Just one thing for now:
While the writer did muddy it a little, remember that the reason this vote came up is because they needed a representative. Someone who will talk to other nation's leaders, negotiate, stuff like that.
It's not like this leader couldn't delegate the detail work to other people where necessary - we had L-Elf taking care of military training and the like last episode(?) already. Why not do the same with that student council president guy? It's not like our governments are run by a single person familiar which each and every minute detail, either. They've got people to delegate that work to.
But back to the representative thing. Whom would you vote for - the technical, boring, wimpy guy who on various previous occasions has waved the white flag already, who nearly got all of them screwed when he didn't believe Shouko about ARUS (that it may have been reasonable for him is of no consequence here), and so on so forth. Or that girl who's shown she's quite capable of kicking people's asses when necessary? Who's already saved them before? Who would you rather have take care of negotiations? The wimp? Really?
Then there's the fact that she's the previous prime minister's daughter. That kind of implies "well, she's his daughter, she's probably capable of doing the job, too." I guess maybe the idea of "the descendant of a ruler is fit to be a ruler" is not as present in the US anymore?
I think that decision is quite logical even if you only look at more-or-less rational reasons for it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 14, 2013, 03:08:46 PM
In the US, the prestige of a good president can be passed down to one of his sons.  Goodness knows how many people in the Kennedy family have been pressured into politics and both Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. were presidents.  However, there's often little to no 'right to rule' passed down unless their term went extremely and their party loves them/thinks it can use their name to get an advantage.  In this situation, it would be like electing Bozo the clown to be president if it was proven his father was a big politician that did really well and Bozo happened to stand up for some small issues here or there on the backstage of his clown show.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't trust the Shoko, no matter how much she did through sheer guts.  In politics and representation of what your country or nation believes, the ditsy, air headed idiot who yells "YOLO!" doesn't seem the best choice.  Even if the weedy, nervous kid wasn't exactly charismatic, he at least had some plans.  Say what you will, but their circumstances regarding cursed robots shouldn't be held against a guy that was used to boring school council meetings.  If anything, it seems like he was quite ready to step up and, if push comes to shove, ready to at least rely on his trusted friends for advice if need be.  Instead, the air headed girl grieving over the death of her father got elected, meaning we'll get both more drama and stupid decisions. 

Granted, that's not under the assumption that a lot of characters just raised their death flags after yelling "You only live once!". 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on June 14, 2013, 03:32:17 PM
The way she was elected was just ****ing retarded. We had one guy who actually knew what the hell he was on about, and then some girl comes on and says "I WANNA FESTIVAL, I'LL COME VISIT YOU ALL!".

I mean, you can say "well, they are students", but they are in their late teens at least, they aren't retarded... well, it's Valvrave, so I suppose they are.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 14, 2013, 03:36:45 PM
Fumoffu, I would never underestimate the the stupidity of these teens.  This is the student body with 3 teenagers willing to click yes to a "Will you give up your humanity?" prompt without a second thought and that's AFTER one of them already gave up their humanity, showing signs of extreme worry and angst at every moment.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 14, 2013, 03:47:30 PM
Fumoffu, I would never underestimate the the stupidity of these teens.  This is the student body with 3 teenagers willing to click yes to a "Will you give up your humanity?" prompt without a second thought and that's AFTER one of them already gave up their humanity, showing signs of extreme worry and angst at every moment.

You do realize they are probably going to be paying for some of their mistakes pretty soon right?  That does seem to be the direction the show is heading.  If I'm wrong then you may have something of a point, but there's still two episodes left for it to all come crashing down on them. 
Mind you people will probably try to call it an "unintentional trainwreck" if and when that happens and spin it back around to the whole bad writing claim yet again, but we'll cross that bridge if and when we get there.

The way she was elected was just ****ing retarded. We had one guy who actually knew what the hell he was on about, and then some girl comes on and says "I WANNA FESTIVAL, I'LL COME VISIT YOU ALL!".

I mean, you can say "well, they are students", but they are in their late teens at least, they aren't retarded... well, it's Valvrave, so I suppose they are.

It didn't seem to me like this was being portrayed as a good thing so much as a situation where the students clearly aren't thinking of the possibilities of never reaching the moon.  People love to point out the juxtaposition of the election scene with that of Haruto and Saki, but what about the situation with Cain and wanting to launch one last all out attack on the Module before it gets out of reach?  These kids are assuming they will reach the moon, that they have no need for Satomi's multi-point plans and that pretty soon they'll be able to stand down, get off the module and relax.  When you look at it from that angle it's not entirely hard to see why they would choose Shoko's feel good proposal over Satomi's bureaucracy.  Don't forget we know what's coming on the Dorssian, Arus and JIOR fronts, they don't.  So far they have every reason to believe that whatever bad happens Haruto and the Valvrave pilots will save them and they see Shoko as an avenue to that since she and Haruto are known to be close.  They don't know what we know about the school being a sham, about the Valvraves more sinister true nature that is starting to reveal itself and about Dorssia's last ditch all out plans involving Cain himself who knows more about the Valvrave's than they do entering the fray.  All they know is they are days away from the moon.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 14, 2013, 03:53:27 PM
Fumoffu, I would never underestimate the the stupidity of these teens.  This is the student body with 3 teenagers willing to click yes to a "Will you give up your humanity?" prompt without a second thought and that's AFTER one of them already gave up their humanity, showing signs of extreme worry and angst at every moment.

You do realize they are probably going to be paying for some of their mistakes pretty soon right?  That does seem to be the direction the show is heading.  If I'm wrong then you may have something of a point, but there's still two episodes left for it to all come crashing down on them. 
Mind you people will probably try to call it an "unintentional trainwreck" if and when that happens and spin it back around to the whole bad writing claim yet again, but we'll cross that bridge if and when we get there.

Most trainwrecks don't go off the rails until the 2nd cour.  You really need 2 cours, at minimum, for a solid trainwreck of a series.  At the moment, Valverave is insane, but there is a method to the madness.  This isn't Guilty Crown, where it doesn't making that much sense and they were playing with some ideas, then they just completely threw them out starting in ep 13.  If ep 1 of S2 just throws out everything, then it's into full on trainwreck mode.  So, at the moment, it's not there. 

And the method to that madness is someone(s) are going to pay for their trip to the Moon.  Probably most everyone.  What's the point of having immortal vampire-zombies if they aren't the only ones to live?  They have to pay for the sin of immortality, otherwise the angst just won't work.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 14, 2013, 03:55:57 PM
KS, there's no arguing that that they could or could not face consequences.  However, that's not the main argument here.  Like I said earlier, these characters display "Chronic Stupid".  They're beyond stupid and we almost never see the what's or why's behind it all.  This might be different, but every other case of stupid persists. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 14, 2013, 04:17:23 PM
Fumoffu, I would never underestimate the the stupidity of these teens.  This is the student body with 3 teenagers willing to click yes to a "Will you give up your humanity?" prompt without a second thought and that's AFTER one of them already gave up their humanity, showing signs of extreme worry and angst at every moment.

You do realize they are probably going to be paying for some of their mistakes pretty soon right?  That does seem to be the direction the show is heading.  If I'm wrong then you may have something of a point, but there's still two episodes left for it to all come crashing down on them. 
Mind you people will probably try to call it an "unintentional trainwreck" if and when that happens and spin it back around to the whole bad writing claim yet again, but we'll cross that bridge if and when we get there.

Most trainwrecks don't go off the rails until the 2nd cour.  You really need 2 cours, at minimum, for a solid trainwreck of a series.  At the moment, Valverave is insane, but there is a method to the madness.  This isn't Guilty Crown, where it doesn't making that much sense and they were playing with some ideas, then they just completely threw them out starting in ep 13.  If ep 1 of S2 just throws out everything, then it's into full on trainwreck mode.  So, at the moment, it's not there. 

And the method to that madness is someone(s) are going to pay for their trip to the Moon.  Probably most everyone.  What's the point of having immortal vampire-zombies if they aren't the only ones to live?  They have to pay for the sin of immortality, otherwise the angst just won't work.

I agree with this, if the show suddenly disregards everything that happens in the first season at the start of the second then it clearly has no actual planning, structure or direction and can thus be considered clearly off the rails.  Part of the problem with Guilty Crown, the biggest problem really, was it's tendency to disregard what happened even as recently as the prior episode and launch off in a totally new direction with characters behaving in totally different manners in order to fit the plot of the episode.  Examples of this included how Shu would always reset to his default wishy washy wimp mode after each episode, how Gai's character played out in general, how Arisa betrayed the crew for absolutely no conceivably logical reason in the second half, how Shu suddenly decided upon the death of his one friend to become a hard line Darwinist Survivalist for a couple episodes and then suddenly went back to his old self the second Gai resurrected again.  Those things made the narrative a complete mess and hard to accept.

I don't see this show doing these things and feel each episode tends to pick up for the most part where the last one left off.  It uses non-linear storytelling and multi-plot threading and layering, some of which overlaps, some of which doesn't and some of which has yet to or is just beginning to, but it's not having characters wildly change positions and outlooks at the drop of a hat simply because the plot of the episode dictates it. 

An example would be how Haruto didn't immediately take to L-Elf's way of doing things until it became clear that people like him were necessary for their survival and that without him they are ****ed.  How the Takahi side character has realized that the scope of things are way beyond what she can accomplish as a member of the student council and that it's better to defer authority to the likes of people like the core cast while she just does what she can (YMMV on how she's basically become a cheerleader/command center operator/grunt).  How Satomi has only started to go from a kind of weak-willed bureaucratic type to vaguely sinister and bitter control freak as he's started to feel that the situation within the colony is sliding out of control and that nobody is seeing things clearly or listening to what he has to say including his own family.  How Saki has gone from seeing resigning her humanity to become a pilot and hang out with Haruto so she can be an action hero like in the movies as a blessing to realizing she's just not very good at it at the moment and that it's slowly starting to reveal itself as a curse (the scene of her from the future as a sad melancholic looking person hints at this development continuing). 

The plot and characters may be silly and colorful at first glance and probably even second glances, but I see the developments as pretty natural and relatively easy to relate to in their own context.  Some people may not like it, but I personally think they're also selling it all a bit short as often tends to happen with shows like this.

KS, there's no arguing that that they could or could not face consequences.  However, that's not the main argument here.  Like I said earlier, these characters display "Chronic Stupid".  They're beyond stupid and we almost never see the what's or why's behind it all.  This might be different, but every other case of stupid persists. 

I see that as a pretty gross oversimplification of the cast of this show, but I also don't see myself convincing you to think otherwise so the situation is what it is.  A lot of people have made up their minds already on how to view this show after all, but I'd like to see where things go before I make any long term calls about the cast and their relative intelligence.  I prefer to do those types of evaluations while looking back as opposed to looking forward and/or in the midst of the turmoil.  It' so convenient to just call a cast stupid because they don't do what we would do in their situation, but I find people regularly forget the difference between the position of the omniscient viewer that can see everything that is happening in the show and the character within the story that can only see what their present circumstances and mindset allow them too.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 14, 2013, 04:28:26 PM
On Shouko's election, I said back a bit that we should probably view this in light of recent Japanese government politics.  And I did mean that.  The current government is attempting to quadruple down on previous policies in a hope of kick starting the economy.  But this is just Nth time a Japanese Prime Minister has done this.   (See this chart for what the exchange rate has looked like lately: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=JPY&to=USD&view=1Y )

So, there's a pretty good political angle to the "elected" official doing the rah-rah speech while someone is getting f***ed off screen.   In a series that mentions SPACE NAZIS in the opening of ep 1, there's still a political angle.  That wasn't really lost on me, but it's not really been the main focus of the series.

Which means it's crazy but it's not a trainwreck.  At least, not yet.   Guilty Crown finally made some sense around eps 10-12, with character progression, a logical story arc and a setup for the future.  Then they throw out everything we knew about the Void powers and Shuu goes Hitler for a few episodes.  One of the rare instances of a series Godwin'ing itself.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 14, 2013, 04:45:11 PM
On Shouko's election, I said back a bit that we should probably view this in light of recent Japanese government politics.  And I did mean that.  The current government is attempting to quadruple down on previous policies in a hope of kick starting the economy.  But this is just Nth time a Japanese Prime Minister has done this.   (See this chart for what the exchange rate has looked like lately: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=JPY&to=USD&view=1Y )

So, there's a pretty good political angle to the "elected" official doing the rah-rah speech while someone is getting f***ed off screen.   In a series that mentions SPACE NAZIS in the opening of ep 1, there's still a political angle.  That wasn't really lost on me, but it's not really been the main focus of the series.

Which means it's crazy but it's not a trainwreck.  At least, not yet.   Guilty Crown finally made some sense around eps 10-12, with character progression, a logical story arc and a setup for the future.  Then they throw out everything we knew about the Void powers and Shuu goes Hitler for a few episodes.  One of the rare instances of a series Godwin'ing itself.

Yeah this is true, ever since the episode where Space Fuhrer Koyasu made his address about some event that happened in their past (Bloody Wednesday or something like that) and vague hints about L-Elf and the Dorssian Princess connection that aspect of the series plot has only vaguely been addressed which is what I meant about multi-layered plotting with some threads that don't connect yet.  I have to assume they are saving the fleshing out of Dorssia, Arus and JIOR's motivations for the second season (the situation with Liselotte almost certainly ties in to what Space Fuhrer Koyasu with talking about in episode 5) and that this season has and will continue to revolve mostly around the Module 77 situation until it's conclusion.  If that indeed its the case it's probably the best way to do it since it keeps things mostly cohesive and focused on developing one setting at a time instead of trying to balance all of them equally and making for a first season that probably wouldn't make a whole lot of sense and genuinely be hard to follow even for the likes of myself.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 14, 2013, 05:17:42 PM
The way she was elected was just ****ing retarded. We had one guy who actually knew what the hell he was on about, and then some girl comes on and says "I WANNA FESTIVAL, I'LL COME VISIT YOU ALL!".

Heh, funnily enough, I thought that was the most realistic part of Valvrave I've seen.  You think people are elected because of issues, or how well thought out their plans are?  Ha ha.  That's cute.

10:

Okay, so, during the next episode preview, the narrator constantly reminds us that Valvrave is the system that will reveal the truth of the world.  So... what is this "truth" that it is going to unveil?  People are animals?  Hell, that's not a revelation.

I will say this, though:  mad props to the cajones on the director / production crew for getting THAT through onto television.  Yeah, they used some funky techniques to make it look a little less obvious that Haruto and Saki were ****ing, but it was still pretty overt for a television series.  I imagine some phone calls are about to be made somewhere, and someone is going to be in TO-LOVE-RU!

EDIT

Also, lost in all this discussion on rape and shock value was the other message that Valvrave's creators were trying to send in this episode.  Back in the episode prologue, they talked about how information is made up of particles, which they call "runes".  Well, what would this imply?  This would imply that information has mass.  Which means intellectual property has mass.  Which means when you're copying intellectual property, you're actually stealing runes from someone.  Ha ha!  Take that pirates!  You're just thieves stealing runes after all!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 14, 2013, 06:10:05 PM
It's Sunrise.  They've slaughtered entire families on early evening TV before.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 14, 2013, 06:34:20 PM
It's Sunrise.  They've slaughtered entire families on early evening TV before.

I've always felt that the measuring stick of how much one can enjoy their shows is how much of an appetite they have for Schadenfreude.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on June 14, 2013, 06:59:23 PM
Yeh, Hunter X Hunter is a rather good example of how sunday morning anime for kids can still be rather disturbing. Though that's violence rather than sex. Though shot and and eaten.... oosh.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 14, 2013, 11:45:45 PM
Oh, next episode title is a reference to the Nuremberg Trials.  They're all gonna burn. :)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 15, 2013, 09:41:06 AM
I don't know if other people think this way, but who thinks about the idea of this show's timing with the perspective on the Roman Empire wannabes?  I think it would actually allow you to avoid the teenage drama and angst, but it would still allow for the "epic" battles that they show off every once in a while.  If you just cut back to the module to show off hints of the valvrave source and characters, you also develop that side of it a little bit. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on June 20, 2013, 12:24:16 PM
11:

My dick was not ready.
Also I half expected L-Elf to actually do it. Now there's a hallmark of a good show.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 20, 2013, 07:21:30 PM
11:
I've come up with the blanket summary of this show.  "It's just a medley full of stupid and oddities."  It's also worth mentioning that the show validated our opinions on the fact that L-Elf is blatantly reading the script.  He just passed it off to preppy, leader kid for this episode.  Sadly, preppy, leader kid did not have the script reading abilities of L-Elf.  Conclusion: The script only works for L-Elf. 

There is also something that I can't actually argue for or against at this point.  It just is and exists in the stupid as a mere result.  Our main character confessed marriage to the jaded pop idol at the worst possible time.  I guess that whole "rape" thing really solidified their relationship.  The computer was also in agreement with that and was very happy for the blatantly stupid timing by spamming the word marriage over the screen.  Go figure.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on June 20, 2013, 08:19:47 PM
11

This show...   It craps gold bricks. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 23, 2013, 02:30:51 AM
11:

Oh VVV-tan, you slut.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on June 24, 2013, 01:11:42 PM
11:

Never a dull moment with this show, that's for sure. But poor Shoko. She just can't catch a break...
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 24, 2013, 02:21:08 PM
I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't wish that on any real person.  However, judging from her actions and her constant screaming/stupidity, I don't really feel sorry about her.  In fact, I'm waiting for horrible things to happen to all of these characters.  Almost all of them display some level of "What are you even thinking?". 

In Shoko's case, she elected herself to deal with huge empires, however she only wanted to hold a fun festival and have fun with everyone.  What were the people's responses?  They all cheered for her and more than agreed that, she, of all individuals would work perfectly well to deal with actual politics.  Again, that's like electing bozo the clown because he could deal with some back stage issues and wanted to have a cool party.  It doesn't work and only wants to make me punch her more than I did before.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on June 24, 2013, 05:00:56 PM
Gee, lighten up.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 24, 2013, 06:01:34 PM
It's hard to lighten up when there's a bad combination in the entire show. 

A: They want you to follow the characters and treat all of it very seriously.  They did this from the start and they still expect us to be very invested into all of the events.  The very tasteless rape scene comes to mind.  It shows that, for all of the silliness present, the show wants to have the cake and eat it too.  Many shows pull off this off by putting off the comedy for some light-hearted relief after or during a battle where we care about the characters.  This show lacks the characters and the timing.  They really want you to believe in these characters and think of them as human beings when they seem more 2 dimensional, stupid card board cutouts.  They don't have reasons or the development to make us believe in them.  As a result, we only get frustrated over their actions.

B: In light of this lack of development, we only see their stupid actions and the oddest moments.  Here, the election serves as a good example.  We rarely see the supposedly large student body, so to see that the idiot that sung Christmas songs be elected for their arguably most important decision making position is rather frustrating.  The  speech after actually ramps up the stupid and raises a massive death flag for everyone involved.  She basically yelled out YOLO right after getting elected for wanting to have a cool festival.  That's never a good sign in a show like this.  That's only one example too.  There's plenty through the series where we wonder why a character did something and then follow up with either an over-done scene that only makes you roll your eyes or another weird moment.  Pick your tone show.  Do you want something serious or do you want something super weird and hokey?  You've proved you can't have both. 

Mind you, this is basically my pent up frustration built over 12 episodes from a show that could have been decent.  I've seen this show rely way too much on the excuse that it's a fun, actiony mech show.  This had a lot of potential where I think it failed to do anything with it.  You can't have your cake and eat it too, show.

Edit:  I'll also admit my previous post come off as very angry.  I'm not that angry, but I also have no like for these characters.  Shoko is, in my opinion, the worst due to her inherently overly happy, stupid nature.  This is even worse when you consider when you that the we've seen little to no depth for her character.  This is less related to the bad character development and more related to the fact that I hate that kind of person.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 24, 2013, 07:09:09 PM
I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't wish that on any real person.  However, judging from her actions and her constant screaming/stupidity, I don't really feel sorry about her.  In fact, I'm waiting for horrible things to happen to all of these characters.  Almost all of them display some level of "What are you even thinking?". 

In Shoko's case, she elected herself to deal with huge empires, however she only wanted to hold a fun festival and have fun with everyone.  What were the people's responses?  They all cheered for her and more than agreed that, she, of all individuals would work perfectly well to deal with actual politics.  Again, that's like electing bozo the clown because he could deal with some back stage issues and wanted to have a cool party.  It doesn't work and only wants to make me punch her more than I did before.

You sound so Angry Shonen Action Fan right now dude.  Don't worry I have a pretty strong feeling you'll be getting your grit and bloody payment shortly.  The way they're going looks to be full decay of the Roman Empire in all that that entails.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on June 24, 2013, 07:33:02 PM
I think its hard to get mad at a show when it´s campy as hell as this one. SnK takes itself seriously, but Valvrave? The main cast is pretty likeable and they retain this inner coherence that remains consistent throughout the episodes -Shoko´s impulsive, seemingly idiotic plans tend to work, L-elf´s comically omniscient to the point he might as well be reading the script- How are the writers going to top themselves next episode? Did Haruto just kill Shoko´s father? Marriage? Seriously? The whole thing is campy, dumb fun.



Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 24, 2013, 07:44:09 PM
I think its hard to get mad at a show when it´s campy as hell as this one. SnK takes itself seriously, but Valvrave? The main cast is pretty likeable and they retain this inner coherence that remains consistent throughout the episodes -Shoko´s impulsive, seemingly idiotic plans tend to work, L-elf´s comically omniscient to the point he might as well be reading the script- How are the writers going to top themselves next episode? Did Haruto just kill Shoko´s father? Marriage? Seriously? The whole thing is campy, dumb fun.

Well some people want to argue the rape point but I don't know man, I don't think it's trying to justify rape culture or something like some by including it.  It'd be more awkward if the guy just suddenly did that with no provocation because it would be so out of character, but I really see it as just a fulfillment of the Chekov's Gun that was he resigning his humanity all the way back at the start of the show.

I also don't hate a cast for being stupid, I just ask that they grow out of it at some point and learn something about consequences which is what this final arc has been all about so far so I'm pretty okay.  It's not a great sci-fi epic but I can't lie, I honestly look forward to it more than Titan at the moment.  The show would be really boring if every character were super competent at all of this pitched war country founding stuff like L-Elf but they aren't and I think that's kind of the point.  It leaves room for growth.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 25, 2013, 07:20:00 AM
That is a good point, KS.  For much of this show, I don't think these characters have really grown all that much.  They never really step up themselves; they've always relied on the script reading L-Elf or just fly by the seat of their pants.  It may be campy, but these characters haven't grown at all.  Even Gurren Lagann showed some growth and that show had some of the craziest, non-caring characters I've seen yet. 

In a away, it's like they were building up to this horrible disaster the entire time.  That suggests that the show either did this without thinking or they planned it.  Either way, bravo.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 25, 2013, 08:00:39 PM
That is a good point, KS.  For much of this show, I don't think these characters have really grown all that much.  They never really step up themselves; they've always relied on the script reading L-Elf or just fly by the seat of their pants.  It may be campy, but these characters haven't grown at all.  Even Gurren Lagann showed some growth and that show had some of the craziest, non-caring characters I've seen yet. 

In a away, it's like they were building up to this horrible disaster the entire time.  That suggests that the show either did this without thinking or they planned it.  Either way, bravo.

That wasn't how I meant it at all but you would interpret it that way wouldn't you. Like just totally ignore the part of my post thats inconvenient to your skewed view on the series even though its part of the same damn sentence  and work from there, cool stuff.

Just totally and utterly iredeemable right? Like no saving graces whatsoever, worse than this show, worse than that show, fail on all fronts, 1/10 just go home train wreck etc etc. amirite ::)

And yet you'll be back next season just to tread absolutely zero new ground with your commentary won't you?  That's a rhetorical question by the way, I think we both already know the answer to that.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 25, 2013, 08:14:37 PM
I wouldn't call it irredeemable.  If I have to involve myself with these characters somehow, I can at least hope they go out with a bang.  I mean, they did raise a massive death flag with the post election speech.  It was the equivalent of that one detective talking about how he's about to retire in a couple of days.  You know something bad is about to happen.  Besides, the entire "country" is run by immature, often stupid students.  The one kid with a plan got passed down for the kid that sung a Christmas song to break up an argument.  Those aren't good sign from the start. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 25, 2013, 08:20:27 PM
I wouldn't call it irredeemable.  If I have to involve myself with these characters somehow, I can at least hope they go out with a bang.  I mean, they did raise a massive death flag with the post election speech.  It was the equivalent of that one detective talking about how he's about to retire in a couple of days.  You know something bad is about to happen.  Besides, the entire "country" is run by immature, often stupid students.  The one kid with a plan got passed down for the kid that sung a Christmas song to break up an argument.  Those aren't good sign from the start.

Next time someone tries to claim I'm an overly morose and bitter person remind me to direct them to your posts.  I want to have a handy contrast at hand.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 25, 2013, 08:30:29 PM
I'm a cynical bastard at heart.  I've been overly negative and erring on the side of "What can go wrong" for as long as I can remember. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 27, 2013, 06:36:58 PM
12:

If ever there was a show that was chosen arbitrarily to be hated by the community for things most anime honestly do it was this one.  Forget Hikigaya, the way I see it this show is Batman and Sunrise might as well be too.  Every season or so they make a show that seems to become the symbol of and absorb all the punishment for peoples misgivings about anime tropes and I see Valvrave as little different.  It's not the best most tight written show in the world, it mostly operates on the rule of cool and it's flashy and knows what it is, but so ****ing what, it was fun to watch and I don't see how it deserves nearly half of the shit it has received from fans.  It doesn't plain and simple, it was chosen to be hated and that is that.

As for areas I do actually feel it could have improved on, striking a better balance between the factions during the first cour would have been nice.  As it stands I think only the circumstances of Module 77 were all that well fleshed out for much of this shows run with the others only really factoring in towards it's second half and being left to resolution via a cliffhanger.  I hope the second cour addresses this as well as fleshes out the ongoing plot lines.  To be honest I have my doubts about whether it can tie things up in a satisfactory manner even with a second season, but unlike those that declared this show a failure off of the first episode I'll wait and see what it does.  I'm leaning somewhere in the region of 6.5/10 for the first season for sheer enjoyment as well as production values and the promise of more entertainment and fleshing out of the series mythos to come, but that is a tentative rating based on how the second season closes things out.  I don't just arbitrarily make up my mind about things before they've come to their proper conclusion after all unless I'm just plain not enjoying any of it and am forced to drop a show before it reaches it's conclusion.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 27, 2013, 07:13:43 PM
12:

I hate you so much sometimes show.  You were really bringing up the moment.  You had the perfect way to end on a note of despair!  For some reason, the air wasn't contaminated yet, despite the fact that the dingy lower level air must have been connected to the above air somehow.  However, I just figured it was a way to bring up tension.  I was wrong.  Instead, it was your way to introduce yet another unit out of thin air, only to have it use the most op power known in a world full of technology. 

You couldn't end it on melancholy, but we have to fight for what's left, note could you?  Why was the random neet we've known nothing about suddenly focused on like a hawk?  Oh wait.  You just wanted another excuse to shove one of the students into a unit for the sole purpose of keeping you perfect little plot on track.  I was rooting for the villains once and, out of all the shows, they don't actually win.  You just set me up for disappointment from the start, didn't you show?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on June 27, 2013, 07:19:36 PM
12:

Well if the job of this episode was to get me to want to know what happens next, it damn well succeeded.

Valvavrave: I give it a 666/100.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on June 27, 2013, 07:28:53 PM
12:

Well, I guess the "Reveal the Truth of the World" thing from the previews is finally starting to come up as an actual plot point. Not entirely unexpected yet interesting.

All in all, the ep was entertaining . The NEET girl was a bit of a non-character at the beginning, but they did gradually give her scenes here and there, even before this week.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 27, 2013, 07:40:49 PM
Really, the only scenes we got with the NEET girl was shoko sharing a metaphorical cookie with her occasionally and her hacking computers with her l33t skills.  We barely ever saw hints of what she was a NEET for.  Now, the show has deemed her important enough to have an actual back story since she gets her own super special awesome robot.  Just like every other character that was deemed important enough at any time to have his/her own robot.  Everyone else gets development so subtle, it's like it never even happened in the first place.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on June 27, 2013, 08:56:05 PM
Really, the only scenes we got with the NEET girl was shoko sharing a metaphorical cookie with her occasionally and her hacking computers with her l33t skills.  We barely ever saw hints of what she was a NEET for.  Everyone else gets development so subtle, it's like it never even happened in the first place.

That's the thing. It's not even been subtle at all, but you seem to think there's nothing....when that's not quite the case.

I didn't say they were extra important scenes nor were they too plentiful, but they still add up to a little more than that.

For example, the fact she had social anxiety was clearly established before this point. You don't need to know the specifics of the trigger at once.

 I'd also count the Shoko scenes as a positive, not a negative, since they played into how she's basically her only friend.

Quote
Now, the show has deemed her important enough to have an actual back story since she gets her own super special awesome robot.  Just like every other character that was deemed important enough at any time to have his/her own robot.

Frankly, I don't even know what to tell you...since that's how any number of secondary characters are treated in many robot shows or just anime in general.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 27, 2013, 09:10:55 PM
12:

Well, I guess the "Reveal the Truth of the World" thing from the previews is finally starting to come up as an actual plot point. Not entirely unexpected yet interesting.

All in all, the ep was entertaining . The NEET girl was a bit of a non-character at the beginning, but they did gradually give her scenes here and there, even before this week.

I suspected it would only I'm kind of a little disappointed if not surprised now that I've watched the show that it won't be a social commentary thing but most likely an in show thing about a conspiracy.  I guess I was on to more than I thought when I argued that the whole world seemed to be against the one Module floating space.  It's nothing personal really, those students just happened to be in the way.  A lot more about why so much focus on the school kind of makes sense now if the two factions are in a fake war like it seems cause that would mean the individual factions don't really matter much as a focus since all their attention is really focused on  the Valvrave.  Again this should have perhaps struck me as obvious looking back, but it didn't strike me how all important that fact was compared to the apparent cold war going on outside the whole situation with the invasion of Jior.  If that's not actually a thing then I could now more readily see the series covering all of it's plot points in a remaining set of episodes and with that manga in between though it'll still be tighter than it needs to IMO.  Still not 100% convinced this show is only 2 cour.

The way I see it the show has a pretty clear main and supporting cast.  I think the Valvrave pilots will prove more important as time goes on though.  After all all of them still have things they want to accomplish and shit to get over though I can't say I'm a huge fan of Akira.

Also one thing I have to address, "Onii-chan"...really?  I've stuck up for this show a lot, but I think I have to call time out on that one.  Why are we tapping the Imouto fetish fanbase again Valvrave?  I mean okay there was the whole thing with Saki fame whoring by pretending to be related to Haruto over space twitter and Satomi the student council guy with Akira (another reason I'm dreading where her character is going a bit) but a potential arch-villain character as one too?  We'll see where they go with that but man.....
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 28, 2013, 05:30:20 AM
I would argue that the main cast is too large, yet just right size at the same time.  I think the problem is wrapped up on how they create the whole overall situation. 

Again, I'll take something like Gurren Lagann as a decent example.  It's not perfect, but it did ride that line between stupid fun and serious situations pretty well.  There, almost every person had the time to shine and you felt like every character got decent development.  Why?  The action mattered but we had a lot of build-up to it.  However, the build up wasn't the angsty school children kind or the "This is all of the issues this character had" kind.  Every character had a personality, but it wasn't based around a flaw. 

What do I mean?  Well, the flaws were handled dynamically.  Simon starts to get depressed?  Kamina punches some senses into him.  One character get a bit of an ego?  There are talks, but their might be a comedic spin or it just lives long enough to have us move on.  In this way, we grow to the characters without focusing soley on their individual issues or deep seated angst.

Also, the cast is, like Valvrave, really introduced each episode as they become needed.  However, Gurren Lagann can do this because we've never seen them before and almost all of the cast has some kind of chemistry between each other.  Thus, we're okay with some sudden development because we understand they haven't been here for episodes.  Valvrave tends to rush development as soon as said character becomes important, but we can still remember that we've had these characters for how many episodes this show has had.  Over 12 episodes, a couple of scenes with the NEET girl might constitute that she's a social reject.  However, we really don't need that many to realize that she is one.  Subtle development involves lacing in the past of the character in actions in dialogue, not hitting us in the head with a metaphorical brick of rather sudden flash backs as soon as we reach the tipping point.  Spend those scenes showings HOW and WHY she got there, not that she's there.

Edit: I also get that you think I think this show is bad because it's a stereotypical example.  However, I think it's pretty bad because I've seen shows do what this show is attempting better.  In comparison, this show is full of characters with no real motivations and action with little to no stakes, besides the fact that I want things to end horribly.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 28, 2013, 09:46:41 AM
Quote from: RyuKyotei
Edit: I also get that you think I think this show is bad because it's a stereotypical example.  However, I think it's pretty bad because I've seen shows do what this show is attempting better.  In comparison, this show is full of characters with no real motivations and action with little to no stakes, besides the fact that I want things to end horribly.

I don't see how it's at all possible to watch the show and for that statement to ring true so I'll just let you own that one.  I mean you know....considering that's entirely what the show is about, characters in a bad situation where the stakes are high and they all have their own motivations be they selfish or selfless.  I think you're just being willfully blind to what is going on in the show at this point and it's getting harder and harder to take your posts seriously when I know for a simple fact that they are blatant observable falsehoods and where you just do that thing oh so many are doing with this show and ignoring anything that is inconvenient to your rather obvious bottom line which is to deconstruct the show to the point where it becomes a jumble of specific cliches that are easier to nitpick and take out of context rather than the sum of it's parts.

To be honest most of the things you list in that paragraph I wouldn't even call actual present flaws let alone statements that even begin to ring true about Valvrave.  I'm sure I can list some flaws with the show but those definitely wouldn't be it.  Again there's a huge difference between being pointedly critical and just completely making shit up about or framing a show in a specific light in order to be 100% condemning in reaction to it at all times.

I also find your framing of Gurren Lagann in comparison to Valvrave to be highly convenient and not of scientific method and accurate comparison whatsoever.  Again it's so convenient to just ignore any factor that gets in the way of your bottom line and to attribute specific positives and upsides to specific shows which you then deny to this one....again purely out of convenience rather than out of actual proper comparison and contrast.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 28, 2013, 10:28:03 AM
I'll say this, then.  Provide me with a show that you could compare Valvrave with well, put up specific examples of these scenes that were great for subtle character development, talk about the hints and the small amounts of information weaved into the writing, and I'll be more than happy.  At that point, you're putting forth your own examples that more than prove that this show serves as a great example of the mecha genre. 

Also prove that this show isn't trying to have it's cake and eat it too, in terms of mood.  To me, it screams "Take me seriously!", but if you can prove that it's reliably, purposely going for the silly mood that supposedly fuels this genre, I'll at least accept that you have good evidence to suggest it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on June 28, 2013, 10:49:36 AM
ever there was a show that was chosen arbitrarily to be hated by the community for things most anime honestly do it was this one.
No, I did not choose it "arbitrarily", I dislike the show because a lot of the time it was abysmal. Suggesting I somehow have some grudge against the show and that I decided to hate it is just a way for your to discredit legitimate criticism.

The Series

Hated it. It very occasionally verged on being enjoyable, but the fact that some people so persitently suggest it was retarded on purpose means that the possibility of giving it a 4 was squashed.

3/10.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on June 28, 2013, 12:43:51 PM
I'd put it a different way. Ultimately, whether one enjoys something or not is definitely quite subjective, especially when a lot of that comes from particularly strong emotions such as love/hate. Those reactions might be triggered by observations, of course, but also on a purely gut level. You're not going to pay much attention or care about something you have already been feeling so negative towards beforehand.

Which I never felt here, to be honest, so I'd have a very different way of judging this one myself. But I also don't see much of a point in doing that yet, given this really feels like half of a show that will continue in the fall (and that's exactly what will happen) rather than a self-contained entry with a clean break in between. And since I got enough enjoyment out of the experience, I'll simply continue to watch.

Again, I'll take something like Gurren Lagann as a decent example.  It's not perfect, but it did ride that line between stupid fun and serious situations pretty well.  There, almost every person had the time to shine and you felt like every character got decent development.

I don't believe this is strictly true if you actually looked at the total number of people who were in the cast by the end of the show, though that'd obviously throw the entire basis of comparison out of whack too.

Quote
What do I mean?  Well, the flaws were handled dynamically.  Simon starts to get depressed?  Kamina punches some senses into him.  One character get a bit of an ego?  There are talks, but their might be a comedic spin or it just lives long enough to have us move on.  In this way, we grow to the characters without focusing soley on their individual issues or deep seated angst.

Nitpicking your examples aside, that sounds like you really wanted something more directly uplifting and optimistic in content, which is a different matter altogether.

Quote
Also, the cast is, like Valvrave, really introduced each episode as they become needed.  However, Gurren Lagann can do this because we've never seen them before and almost all of the cast has some kind of chemistry between each other.  Thus, we're okay with some sudden development because we understand they haven't been here for episodes.

I'm not so sure that's true for every stretch of the series either, but I also don't think having a different way to focus on characters is an objective problem.

Quote
Valvrave tends to rush development as soon as said character becomes important, but we can still remember that we've had these characters for how many episodes this show has had.  Over 12 episodes, a couple of scenes with the NEET girl might constitute that she's a social reject.  However, we really don't need that many to realize that she is one.  Subtle development involves lacing in the past of the character in actions in dialogue, not hitting us in the head with a metaphorical brick of rather sudden flash backs as soon as we reach the tipping point.  Spend those scenes showings HOW and WHY she got there, not that she's there.

I get the feeling that without literally going back and describing or pointing out each scene you wouldn't admit this is a somewhat inaccurate exaggeration on your part in some respects, but since you obviously didn't care for the material in question it would seem describing such details (regardless of how much they do or don't provide information that builds up to what happens later) isn't going to do any good either.

Quote
Edit: I also get that you think I think this show is bad because it's a stereotypical example.  However, I think it's pretty bad because I've seen shows do what this show is attempting better.  In comparison, this show is full of characters with no real motivations and action with little to no stakes, besides the fact that I want things to end horribly.

The specific example you're using seems like that of a show attempting to do something only slightly similar and eventually becoming something else entirely. And of course, I can't agree with your sentiments nor the exaggerated statements they're based on, such as the last one here, when even a few of the sort of episodes you're complaining about show the opposite is closer to the truth.

Like the last one, for example. You might not like the NEET's motivation, but she does have a reason to act: saving Shoko, who has been shown to be her friend, and that's what made her break out out the room after some struggling. Great motivation? No, but I don't see it as particularly problematic or unreal. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 28, 2013, 01:00:20 PM
I get that you can break down my arguments at a base level, but can you do what I said before?  Can you come up with your own specific examples and do everything else that would let me say "We may disagree, but you have points to back up your side of this argument."  So far, you've only really broken down my ideas and then come up with very few arguments to support your own ideas.  Besides, what's fun to watch and what's bad is very different arguments.  I can enjoy two cavemen hitting each other over the head, but that doesn't mean that it was done well, by the standards of various requirements.   (Don't take this literally.  It's a metaphor for the situation.)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 28, 2013, 01:06:55 PM
I'll say this, then.  Provide me with a show that you could compare Valvrave with well, put up specific examples of these scenes that were great for subtle character development, talk about the hints and the small amounts of information weaved into the writing, and I'll be more than happy.  At that point, you're putting forth your own examples that more than prove that this show serves as a great example of the mecha genre.

Honestly after watching the show the whole way through there isn't much I could make a steady and easy comparison to.  It's kind of it's own thing.  Why exactly does it have to be compared with something else anyway exactly?  What's wrong with just looking at the show on it's own terms instead of over complicating things with flimsy comparisons to past shows with vaguely similar ideas?

As for subtle character development, knowing that you'll probably just reject me at the end I'll say Saki's kind of sad realization towards the end of the season that no matter how much she tries to resist the wills of those that wish to control and manipulate people like her for their own ends she'll never be free of that sort of life.  You could see at the start of the season she was kind of depressed and melancholic if not downright morose, avoiding contact with others and general being nihilistic about things ("Shoko is dead, just accept it and move on!") and then with the situation with the Valvrave's showing up she thought she could take control of things and make herself relevant to the world on her own terms if she could just get a hold of the same power that Haruto held.  She makes her play to get close to him and then when she sees the chance to make her move on the Unit IV she does so without hesitation cause this is her only chance.  After that for a brief little while she seems happy cause she finally has control and is seemingly in charge of her own destiny and impact on the situation, but that emotion is fleeting as she comes to realize it's just another trap to ensnare her set up by those with far more control and insight into the way this particular universe works and by the end of the show she is arguably more melancholic and morose than ever until you get the lines of dialogue she gave in this episode about how her life is always going to be one of being used by others for their own ends.

There's a character arc here of downs and ups and then further downs but not everything about her is blatantly spelled out for the viewers yet can be inferred with just a monocrum of focus.  Why does the character development have to be strictly "subtle" in your mind in order to be considered "good" or however you put it though anyway?  To be honest I think subtlety is vastly overvalued by this particular community.  Not that there isn't merit in subtlety, but there's a time and a place for it and times where it works to a shows advantage and times where it has little to no impact positive or negative on the portrayal of a given scene.

If you want you can suggest other aspects of the show you'd like me to address in detail.  I'd love to actually talk about the show itself rather than just try to force a grade on it, but I'm not going to just shoot in the dark about random aspects of the show for paragraphs on end with a person whose intentions I honestly kind of doubt are genuine.

Quote
Also prove that this show isn't trying to have it's cake and eat it too, in terms of mood.  To me, it screams "Take me seriously!", but if you can prove that it's reliably, purposely going for the silly mood that supposedly fuels this genre, I'll at least accept that you have good evidence to suggest it.

Why do I have to prove that and how do you propose I should even attempt to go about proving that?  Why is that even necessarily an out and out bad thing for a show to do?  I do personally think it's trying to have it's cake and eat it too, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing and I think the show blends it's tones well depending on the situation it's trying to depict.  Again I can't help but feel that this community has certain things it vastly over estimates in terms of worth when it comes to what makes a show great.  Trying to enforce constraints and checklists of good or bad traits that can or can't ever be used in a show as if there's some abritrary universal measure of quality to which all shows must subscribe in order to be considered "well written".  I don't believe in that level of genre or tonal bias towards any form of entertainment, I'd rather just look at what a show provides me and grade it on how the show executes and I've already kind of listed areas where I do think it comes up short.  You can search for them earlier in the thread.

Quote from: Fumoffu!!
Hated it. It very occasionally verged on being enjoyable, but the fact that some people so persitently suggest it was retarded on purpose means that the possibility of giving it a 4 was squashed.

3/10.

The that suggest that are honestly retarded I can agree on that much.  Not that I think it was retarded so much as that's purely a matter of perspective from people that have really narrow definitions of what can be considered good or not.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on June 28, 2013, 01:31:00 PM
Why do I enjoy Valvrave?

Well first it's ridiculous and being ridiculous is entertaining.
Second I find that no trope (Mecha or sci-fi) is not used, I mean its basically used every cliche and trope avaialble.
And third, it's pure, unadulterated, mindless fun. Something you just turn your brain off and watch. I mean I rated it 666/100. Even I'm not taking this show seriously.

So there. That's why I enjoy Valvrave. The points detractors bring up are all correct. I just don't care. And I'll admit I have a sweet spot to shows that just say "Screw you!" to audience expectations (Which is why I like shows like E7: AO and Crime Edge more than others).

EDIT: Definitely better than Guilty Crown that's for sure.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 28, 2013, 01:43:02 PM
Here's one of the cruxes of my arguments, KS. Subtlety and decent writing should be important, no matter what the genre or show.  What do I mean by subtlety?  A flash back is the laziest way to develop the character you want to.  Good ways?

Well, weave ideas and movements into conversations.  This lets the users get it without the writer yelling at them, for example, "She's a NEET!"  A character might be afraid of a certain animal.  A decent writer tries to suggest this in conversations or through movements like the character shying away from one at some point.  Maybe the character secretly hates another character.  Decent writing might mean that she takes a step back or she uses a darker tone.  Little things like this.  Granted, you could use a flash back, but it's still the laziest way to write a character.  It's the equivalent to the writer throwing a brick through your window for attention and yelling in your ear about the character.  "She's afraid of spiders, she hates men, and here's why!"

So, if you were confused about the whole "quality of writing" thing, that's an explanation.  Can it be fun without it? Possibly.  However, that doesn't mean it was quality writing, that just means you like the characters.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 28, 2013, 01:47:41 PM
Here's one of the cruxes of my arguments, KS. Subtlety and decent writing should be important, no matter what the genre or show.  What do I mean by subtlety?  A flash back is the laziest way to develop the character you want to.  Good ways?

Well, weave ideas and movements into conversations.  This lets the users get it without the writer yelling at them, for example, "She's a NEET!"  A character might be afraid of a certain animal.  A decent writer tries to suggest this in conversations or through movements like the character shying away from one at some point.  Granted, you could use a flash back, but it's still the laziest way to write a character.  It's the equivalent to the writer throwing a brick through your window for attention and yelling in your ear about the character.  "She's afraid of spiders, she hates men, and here's why!"

So, if you were confused about the whole "quality of writing" thing, that's an explanation.  Can it be fun without it? Possibly.  However, that doesn't mean it was quality writing, that just means you like the characters.

I find shows like this always get accused of having bad writing no matter what, but I honestly must continue to disagree that that is the case here.  I think it's just a matter of taste.  "Bad writing" is in the eye of the beholder and the sooner people realize that the sooner this fandom gets less shitty and forever trying to commodify the idea of good taste and writing than it is.  I think at this point things must have just changed so much in the community (anime storytelling is pretty standardized now compared to how it was when I first became a fan after all and most people are only familiar with that standardized checklist style of identifying "good writing" ideas and "bad writing" ideas) that shows like Valvrave can just never be accepted as anything other than a "trainwreck".  I don't think it's the case, I think it's a matter of perspective and I'm sticking to that outlook for now.

I'll just say I'm so glad I'm not you right now.  If I had such an arbitrary, specific or restrictive view of what can be considered "good writing" in an anime then I'd never enjoy myself.  I mean good god most of todays fandom that rips on this show and it's contemporaries must be absolutely miserable for the most part.  I can only imagine.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on June 28, 2013, 04:19:33 PM
You're not going to pay much attention or care about something you have already been feeling so negative towards beforehand.

Why?

I find myself focusing more on the details when I hate an anime actually, but I digress. More to the point, people make it sound like you will enjoy Valvrave more if you don't bother to pay attention to it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on June 28, 2013, 07:20:58 PM
That all depends. When you focus on the details that you hate, it's hard to avoid not being influenced by that attitude and care less about everything else.

So there are distinct degrees and types of attention. It would be a waste of time trying to find any physical or scientific realism in this show, for example, so I did not look for it. But I meant other things, like how and why the characters act like they do on a basic level. They're stupid teenagers, which I accepted as a fact, but I didn't have any major problems with that nor did the characters annoy me most of the time. I wasn't treating the show as a realistic depiction of life or life in space. Just as an over-the-top ridiculous melodrama with several in-jokes and a few small pieces of truly interesting content in between, which I did get something out of.

Also, keep in mind I'm not talking about just you or me there. I meant the phrase in my previous post as a general statement applicable to all of us.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on June 28, 2013, 10:01:23 PM
12

Clean sweep.  Twists every single episode.   I don't even...
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 28, 2013, 10:42:07 PM
12

Clean sweep.  Twists every single episode.   I don't even...

What a Twist!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 30, 2013, 12:06:08 AM
12:

My Little Sister Can't Be This Slutty An Interface For Valvraves.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on June 30, 2013, 02:41:27 AM
12:

My Little Sister Can't Be This Slutty An Interface For Valvraves.

Kirino vs Rapist OS-tan....

I'm not sure Kirino wins that vote.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on June 30, 2013, 08:49:04 AM
12:

My Little Sister Can't Be This Slutty An Interface For Valvraves.

Kirino vs Rapist OS-tan....

I'm not sure Kirino wins that vote.

Kirino may be Mary Sue, but I think the OS-tan probably just eats her or something or whatever it is OS-tans do besides make people explode or give them a case of vampirism.

That onii-chan scene was weird and creepy as all hell like most scenes involving the OS have been up to this point.  Was it's distorted voice supposed to be cause it was just awakening to full sentience or something?  I don't even know.  Why does it seem like the OS-tan has been studying up on light novels or something while it's been trapped in a box?  All of it's dialogue and references make it seem like it's a hentai otaku or something. :o

People here probably know I can take a lot of weird stuff from anime, but I think that was the scene in the show that kind of broke my brain.  If there's one plotline I don't know if I like where they seem to be going with in the second season it might be that one.  We'll see.  It strikes me that the whole Magius story arc as well as why the Ploo OS seems so pissed off at humanity has something to do with the incident the Fuhrer made during that one speech way back in episode 5.  Bloody October or something like that. 

This show was a good ride but it definitely raises more questions than it answers.  No doubt like others the second season as well as this ones future fortunes will rest on how well it answers them.  I'm not above raising or dropping my score and opinion based on that come season 2's finale.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on October 10, 2013, 05:31:09 PM
13:
IT'S VALVRAVE TIME!!!! 666/100!!!!! ALL RIGHT!!!!!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Kiniest on October 10, 2013, 05:45:14 PM
Ohoho, not today, my friend. NOT TODAY. I've already fought a strong battle with Coppelion and that alone is something worth my exhaustion. I will not handle you until tomorrow, fair demon. Mark my words, though, when that time comes, we will enter a battle in which only one of us can come out the victor.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on October 10, 2013, 07:21:56 PM
13

That was actually quite tame (all things considering).  I wonder if they'll play things straight now that they've broken the insanity meter last season.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Kiniest on October 12, 2013, 11:33:31 AM
13: It's surprisingly ok. It's not full of absolute bullshit like it was last season. It's probably just warming up, though. Valvrave without its insanity is like Infinite Stratos without its stupidity.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on October 12, 2013, 11:49:41 AM
13:

It was better than I had expected. Maybe this will be good?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 12, 2013, 11:54:12 AM
13:

The shift in tone is pretty noticeable even though it maintains some of that trademark Valvrave quirkiness.  The way it picks up from where the first season left off and then transitions into the current scenario was surprisingly well paced and the current stakes are interesting too with everything that's going on now with the major characters and the revelations that are slowly starting to come out about the universe this takes place in.  This is what I look for in my mecha anime and I guess looking back I ultimately appreciate the buildup to this point (minus episode 5) as we get to see the characters develop from hapless idiot high school students into how they are now.  I'm really looking forward to the promised atmospheric battle in the next episode as they always tended to be among my favorite types of combat situations in Gundam series.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on October 12, 2013, 12:11:16 PM
13:

It was better than I had expected. Maybe this will be good?

No, the only question is if they shoot for "All-time most F***ed up series" or not banner.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 12, 2013, 12:34:35 PM
13:

It was better than I had expected. Maybe this will be good?

No, the only question is if they shoot for "All-time most F***ed up series" or not banner.

I think the degree to which this series is "****ed up", "makes no sense" and is a "trainwreck" is kind of overstated by the internet at this point and just some people who want something to poke at's wishful thinking.  It had an unusual start by real robot mecha anime standards in that it essentially depicted the transition of a school of happy go lucky students into more battle hardened depressed leaders of their own country but lately it's just been pretty solid mecha/sci-fi/political albeit through the filter of anime.  I'm really just not seeing the total cluster**** of a show to end all cluster****s that people seem to want to insist this is and pretty well understand all the characters motivations and the current scenario as much as it can be understood with the information we have at this point.  :-\
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on October 12, 2013, 12:57:55 PM
13:

It was better than I had expected. Maybe this will be good?

No, the only question is if they shoot for "All-time most F***ed up series" or not banner.

I was making a joke. Sarcasm perhaps?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 12, 2013, 01:18:22 PM
13:

It was better than I had expected. Maybe this will be good?

No, the only question is if they shoot for "All-time most F***ed up series" or not banner.

I was making a joke. Sarcasm perhaps?

Way to draw that line in the sand.  It's going to be funny if this show actually does continue to pick up from this point and people still just refuse to accept it and act like it's still in episode 5 territory.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on October 12, 2013, 01:27:34 PM
Way to draw that line in the sand.  It's going to be funny if this show actually does continue to pick up from this point and people still just refuse to accept it and act like it's still in episode 5 territory.

Look, if the show actually turns out to be amazing then I will say as much, that applies to everyone else. The thing is that we are all certain that this will not end up being amazing and will end up being a cluster**** like last season. It's not exactly an unreasonable thing to assume given the first season.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 12, 2013, 01:39:00 PM
Way to draw that line in the sand.  It's going to be funny if this show actually does continue to pick up from this point and people still just refuse to accept it and act like it's still in episode 5 territory.

Look, if the show actually turns out to be amazing then I will say as much, that applies to everyone else. The thing is that we are all certain that this will not end up being amazing and will end up being a cluster**** like last season. It's not exactly an unreasonable thing to assume given the first season.

Meh suit yourself and your own narrative I guess.   ::)  The thing is I'm not even talking about it being amazing (although that was an exciting a debut as ive seen this side of Kill la Kill) just not the complete shit show others claim to see with it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on October 13, 2013, 05:39:44 AM
KS, none of us are expecting anything good from this show. I can't speak for others, but my expectations for this show has reached rock bottom.  After the disaster that was the last season, I'm not expecting much.

Unless they seriously raise the quality of writing, pacing, and characters, this show doesn't have a chance at being called "good" on this site. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 13, 2013, 12:07:24 PM
KS, none of us are expecting anything good from this show. I can't speak for others, but my expectations for this show has reached rock bottom.  After the disaster that was the last season, I'm not expecting much.

Unless they seriously raise the quality of writing, pacing, and characters, this show doesn't have a chance at being called "good" on this site.

Like I said speak for yourself.  You make it sound as if this site is some sort of hive mind, but last time I checked this is no 4chan and hopefully it stays that way.  I thought last season started off slow, hit a rough patch during the episodes around the 2nd quarter of the show with episode 5 marking a low point that even I'll agree on as a lame scenario (that's the one with the giant red button and Saki doing the concert that came off as farcical even by this shows standards) but finished strong and this one picked up right where it left off so I'm quite satisfied with this premiere episode.  I also notice I'm the only one to talk about anything that actually happened in the episode and might happen next time so yeah I guess I'm the only person enjoying or perhaps willing to enjoy this show as long as it's pushing the right buttons for me as a sci-fi mecha/drama fan. 

For all the talk of how apparently universally agreed upon this shows supposedly bottom of the barrel writing is I haven't seen much dissection of it of late and I'm starting to think I know why.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on October 13, 2013, 01:30:39 PM
"How did you find me?"
"I put a tracking device on you the other day."
"That´s so like you."

Truly the cream to his coffee. I missed this show so much.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on October 13, 2013, 05:03:58 PM
For all the talk of how apparently universally agreed upon this shows supposedly bottom of the barrel writing is I haven't seen much dissection of it of late and I'm starting to think I know why.

Come on. Say it. You know you want to.

I thought we bitched about what it did wrong plenty, but apparently that wasn't enough for you, bitchin about our bitchin. I'll throw you a bone here and say exactly why I think what I do about the next episode, I shall be meticulous.

Also, it isn't so much a hive mind as much as everyone coming to a common consensus. Well, apart from a notable exception. Apparently I had a really narrow view of what was good or not, but I digress.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 13, 2013, 06:09:14 PM
For all the talk of how apparently universally agreed upon this shows supposedly bottom of the barrel writing is I haven't seen much dissection of it of late and I'm starting to think I know why.

Come on. Say it. You know you want to.

I thought we bitched about what it did wrong plenty, but apparently that wasn't enough for you, bitchin about our bitchin. I'll throw you a bone here and say exactly why I think what I do about the next episode, I shall be meticulous.

Also, it isn't so much a hive mind as much as everyone coming to a common consensus. Well, apart from a notable exception. Apparently I had a really narrow view of what was good or not, but I digress.

You're really dedicated to your rather obvious genre biases so I suppose I look forward to it with some curiosity.  ;)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 14, 2013, 05:11:05 PM
Season 2-1:

Odd, I suddenly now buy the entire premise of this trainwreck of a show.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on October 17, 2013, 02:37:43 PM
14:
No jokes this time... That was actually pretty good.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on October 17, 2013, 03:20:04 PM
13-14:

Clearly the second season is starting relatively calm and collected so far, though I'm sure more over-the-top things will happen in the future.

But you know what? That's not a bad thing, in my view, if you can ride the crazy waves the show is openly setting up rather than fighting against them. Perhaps the balance of ridiculous to serious parts will be better now, but that doesn't mean only the latter can qualify as good. Both of them are part of the puzzle, so to speak, and it's nice to see the series continues to make fun of itself even with stuff like Beast High and the Sunrise-brand cardboard boxes.

Either way....at least those who were asking for explanations are starting to get a few answers. That should help clear up some of the mess.

I'm also glad that Akira is getting more attention, since her debut definitely came a little too late in the game to make a big difference.

Coming up next...the return of the Space Nazi Boys Squad!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on October 17, 2013, 07:27:10 PM
14

Ah, the show is becoming a lot more straightforward Sunrise mecha anime.  Not sure I like this better than the trainwreck express, but I tend to like Sunrise mecha anime, so I'll flow with it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 17, 2013, 09:38:43 PM
14:

Straightforward is a good word for this episode, SM.  I'd almost go so far as to also call it "boring" and "predictable".

Which I'm not sure I like.  Oh sure, Valvrave could use some sanity... problem is it could have used it 10 episodes ago.  I want my crazy go nuts bullshit, not this by the numbers mecha garbage.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on October 17, 2013, 09:54:22 PM
My, that's rather harsh.

Then again, boredom is a totally subjective emotion...but I don't see what's bad about the series being predictable for once. You need transitions.

After all, without any reasonable content between twists you'll probably get tired of them as well. I guess they can't please everyone all of the time.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 18, 2013, 12:23:08 AM
Quote
After all, without any reasonable content between twists you'll probably get tired of them as well. I guess they can't please everyone all of the time.

Well, seeing as how Valvrave is nothing special without those rampant shock value twists, then the problem is getting tired of it sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 18, 2013, 09:57:19 AM
Quote
After all, without any reasonable content between twists you'll probably get tired of them as well. I guess they can't please everyone all of the time.

Well, seeing as how Valvrave is nothing special without those rampant shock value twists, then the problem is getting tired of it sooner rather than later.

Sucks for you I guess, I think it's pretty great though I'm just pondering how a show can return to what it never really was to begin with. 

That said the twists will surely come again, but the progression on matters and continued character focus this early in the season is much appreciated.  Plus the atmospheric battle was great as always even if it's followed by the classic cliche plotline of getting knocked off course and into outright enemy territory.  I'm still not really a huge fan of Akiras character, but the touch of Satomi finally getting through to his sister and the show picking up on last seasons finale where he was powerless to do anything to help her and needed the Shoko didn't go unnoticed.  That guy was due for a break.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Kiniest on October 18, 2013, 10:11:23 AM
14: To be honest, this episode wasn't completely unobjectable, but it's fairly ok. I'm with TIF on this one, it's actually becoming a bit dull. Maybe it was better with it being batshit crazy. I guess you never know what you've lost until it's gone.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on October 24, 2013, 03:07:12 PM
15:
No worries. Valvrave is still batsh*t crazy. Just this time it's the good kind of crazy and not the guilty pleasure kind of crazy.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on October 24, 2013, 04:42:56 PM
15:

Yes, here come the twists.

A little bit of everything really. Future, Marie, L-Elf, Saki and Akira plus new robots. 

Either way, I'm glad they're doing more to move things along than they did in some early season one episodes.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 25, 2013, 12:50:24 AM
15:

Ha... all kinds of contrived bullshit.

- Another one of those damned future shots, complete with, apparently immortal Big Bro.

- Let's make sure the kids shoot Saki because she knows about her own healing powers and wont have a cow over it.  Akira would require us to invest more in animation while she freaks out about having a bullethole in her chest.

- Pino makes sure not to spill the beans!  That would be terrrrrible!

- Speaking of shooting the right people, we're going to make L-elf look badass again by resorting to violence to solve a problem!  Whoops!  Syke!  Mad you look, ****ers!

Is the crazy back, or just bad writing!  Hah!  Fooled you!  There was never a real choice!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on October 25, 2013, 04:54:09 AM
L-Elf must be resigned to the fact that guns just don't do it anymore these days.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 25, 2013, 10:45:47 AM
15:

Ha... all kinds of contrived bullshit.

- Another one of those damned future shots, complete with, apparently immortal Big Bro.

- Let's make sure the kids shoot Saki because she knows about her own healing powers and wont have a cow over it.  Akira would require us to invest more in animation while she freaks out about having a bullethole in her chest.

- Pino makes sure not to spill the beans!  That would be terrrrrible!

- Speaking of shooting the right people, we're going to make L-elf look badass again by resorting to violence to solve a problem!  Whoops!  Syke!  Mad you look, ****ers!

Is the crazy back, or just bad writing!  Hah!  Fooled you!  There was never a real choice!

I wouldn't really call it bad, maybe fast and loose, but not out and out bad.  When I think bad writing this season I think Coppelion or Kyokai no Kanata.  I thought it was a pretty entertaining episode without having to result to things like random insert idol performances or implied sex crime.  :-\

Also I thought the scene where Saki was shot and Akira reacts had amongst the highest frame counts in the entire episode so not really sure what you're talking about with saving budget here.  The line delivery was also pretty good and I'm starting to like Haruka Tomatoes more and more these days.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on October 25, 2013, 10:47:07 AM
Crazy events tend to be contrived almost by definition, so the main difference lies in how cynical you want to be about it.

Especially when said cynicism often implies that the show would only be "good" if it refused to do anything crazy or exaggerated.

Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 25, 2013, 10:50:02 AM
Crazy events tend to be contrived almost by definition, so the main difference lies in how cynical you want to be about it.

Especially when said cynicism often implies that the show would only be "good" if it refused to do anything crazy or exaggerated.

Yup that's always been what it's about at the end of the day and when it comes to this show it's clear where some have chosen to stand long before now.  I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to project it all back on the show though except in extreme cases like season 1 episodes 5 or 10.  Especially considering most of what he describes is not so much contrived bullshit as well....you know...the plot and non-linear way in which the story is often written and exposition is delivered.  Personally if I don't see many outright contradictions I'm largely okay (this is something that bothered me with Guilty Crown and this season with Kyokai no Kanata) with the writing of shows like this and while this episode had some extreme moments as always with people getting shot nothing I saw outright contradicted anything else.  We know how L-Elf operates and doesn't care the slightest about anything other than what is the quickest method of securing the objective so griping about it seems pointless, we know the show likes to flash-forward to the future so I fail to see the atrociously bad writing involved in that aspect and we know the show likes to reveal a bit at a time so scenes like the chat with Pino and what happened with Marie are going to happen as well.

I also kind of like the device of future storytelling time.  It beats just having characters stand around and exposition dialogue everything in the present and keeps the action and story moving forward at a decent clip in the present while laying down some good teasers at the start of the show.  Like you'll see them talk about something and you'll be like, "what's she referring to, I guess I'll have to watch the episode to find out" and it makes it more interesting than it might be otherwise.  I've heard people say that the shows twists aren't so surprising in and of themselves so much as how they are presented and I think that's one thing the show doesn't get enough credit for in the long run.  It has a knack for starting off and ending episodes in ways that make the non-cynical viewer that rejects everything about it want to see more.

Anyway I think the idea of good is clearly off the table for certain people when it comes to Valvrave the Liberator.  I've talked about it before but some people feel the need to dress it up and sell it as this abominable trainwreck in order to justify their continued watching of it on some level, but I don't think it necessarily does it full justice at the end of the day when people ignore the things it arguably gets right.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on October 25, 2013, 03:47:14 PM
KS, we all understand that you think we look at this show thinking it's bad despite some inherently good quality.  Frankly, that quality barely exists. 

When the show does action, there's some decent respite from the bad writing until the plot rears it's ugly head into the mix.  It's fast, if a bit awkwardly animated with obvious cgi, and a bit satisfying. There's explosions, different moves, and team work.  However, the sequences are too short and it ends up being ruined by the show's writing and characters.

The show is screaming "I want to be taken seriously!" but then pulls plot twists out that had no foreshadowing and moments that only occur because the characters are beyond stupid at that moment.  Example: this whole revelation about emotionless girl.  Before this, we haven't gotten a hint of the fact that she mysteriously doesn't have memories before two years ago.  Before this, we don't even see her actually do much.  She's been in the background the entire show and it's only now the show has deemed her worthy of development. 

I don't know if this show's problem is bad writing, too many characters, or a bad mix of both.  On the other hand, I do know that the problem exists in some form. We joke about how bad it is, but that doesn't make the show any better.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 25, 2013, 08:04:09 PM

The show is screaming "I want to be taken seriously!" but then pulls plot twists out that had no foreshadowing and moments that only occur because the characters are beyond stupid at that moment.  Example: this whole revelation about emotionless girl.  Before this, we haven't gotten a hint of the fact that she mysteriously doesn't have memories before two years ago.  Before this, we don't even see her actually do much.  She's been in the background the entire show and it's only now the show has deemed her worthy of development. 

Well that's sort of why I'd call it fast and loose, but again I'm not seeing the part that makes it out and out bad and I'm not seeing the flat out contradictions with Marie's character so I have to ask who the **** cares when this comes out of the box unless you're being deliberately nit picky.  Like when's an acceptable time for this to come up?  Episode 4?  Episode 1?

If people want to claim the show has flat out bad writing I want to see it hammered on a very valid hard to argue point like a lot of others shows are here, not just because the show has been hand picked for that sort of extra special treatment and people are nitpicking particular points to try to fulfill the narrative like I truly feel it has been in general.  Some episodes IMO have been missteps no doubt, even some characters you could make specific arguments on as being handled better or worse than others, but I'm just not seeing the flat out consistently and atrociously bad writing in general that some would like to claim it has compared to it's peers and to be honest it looks like neither are some other people even around here so I think it's time to stop with this whole "we" stuff or find a better way to define who exactly "we" refers to.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on October 26, 2013, 02:31:05 AM
The show is screaming "I want to be taken seriously!"...

Funny, I would have to say it's screaming something a little closer to the opposite and it's been doing that all the way back to season one.

It's a vampire soap opera with goofy and self-aware elements, as well as melodrama and crazy twists to drive the plot along. I don't know what possesses some people to assume such a thing is meant to be considered with the same seriousness as even Gundam AGE, or that "not enough foreshadowing" is a real issue when too much of that would detract from the craziness of the twists. In the case of Marie's amnesia twist, I suppose it's amusing in retrospect how there's a bit of an in-joke/reference involved which sort of spells it out though.

Call it bad form, if you like, but I think the creators are provoking exactly the reactions they intended when we go LOL or WTF?! at Marie being an amnesiac who is shot right in the middle of a conversation yet suddenly rises up from the dead as quickly as she dropped.

So there's two ways of looking at the twists in Valvrave's writing: those who laugh at them out of spite, and those who laugh with them out of enjoyment.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on October 26, 2013, 03:38:00 AM
Don't worry, it's alright the show is being shit, because it's doing it on purpose!! YAY!!!

Wait, why does that not make it better?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Pebble on October 26, 2013, 05:23:07 AM
Not watching this, but I object to Fumoffu's argument: AH is saying that "it's contrived/crazy and therefore ok", not "it's shit and therefore ok". So the equivalent is "Don't worry, it's alright the show is being crazy/contrived, because it's doing it on purpose!! YAY!!!".

Oh don't mind me, I just got out of a three-hour class on logic so it's not my fault; my teacher caused me to do it/my primal instincts took over and made me do it/I was temporarily insane while doing it/my dog made me do it/my dog ate it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on October 26, 2013, 05:28:50 AM
Frankly, anyone who says the show is trying to be silly needs to look at that implied rape scene and then tell me that it's a "silly show".  Heck, look at the main character locking himself in a cage for tests and tell the show is just trying to be silly. 

As for the idea of being crazy for an automatic excuse for being bad, I don't think it's true.  You know what's also crazy? Kill la kill, Gurren lagann, and who knows what else.  You know what they are? Good for knowing how to approach tone and writing in such a way that there's no issue of confusion over how the audience is supposed to feel.  A contrived and crazy story doesn't make the show good or decent.  I've seen good crazy and this show isn't it, whether it's on purpose or not.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on October 26, 2013, 06:50:33 AM
Jesus Christ, if you are confused on how Valvrave is supposed to make you feel, maybe it´s time you stopped watching the show.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on October 26, 2013, 07:27:26 AM
15:

This show still manages to surprise me. Didn't see the headshot coming. Wanted to strangle L-Elf there for a few seconds.
Granted, shooting her seems like a somewhat questionable option - wouldn't getting her to keep quiet be easier than dealing with the fallout of her dying? Ah well.

RyuKyotei: Foreshadowing is entirely optional. You just shouldn't have contradictions. Which I'm not seeing here.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on October 26, 2013, 08:14:17 AM
Jesus Christ, if you are confused on how Valvrave is supposed to make you feel, maybe it´s time you stopped watching the show.

I think that actually everyone has formed their own opinions and so have no confusion as to how they think it's supposed to make them feel. In any case why should they stop watching just because of that. That's just silly.

Not watching this, but I object to Fumoffu's argument: AH is saying that "it's contrived/crazy and therefore ok", not "it's shit and therefore ok". So the equivalent is "Don't worry, it's alright the show is being crazy/contrived, because it's doing it on purpose!! YAY!!!".

Fair enough, to be honest I don't think what the show is doing currently is particularly shit, and Valvrave isn't being called a "so bad it's good" show, so I guess my comment missed the mark of AH's comment.

That said, I think this show is meant to be taken entirely seriously, does the general tone not imply that? For something like Girls und Panzer the events wear so obviously intended to be ridiculous and silly that you knew that despite the fact they played it with a completely straight face that there was implicit humour and that you weren't meant to take it too seriously. Valvrave isn't ridiculous to the point where I would consider it to be obviously somewhat tongue in cheek. More to the point they have some pretty heavy topic like the aforementioned rape scene, the child soldiers etc. that don't really have any place in a series which was apparently intentionally goofy. It is is being intentionally goofy and it still did the rape etc. then I object to that, because that's two entirely different tones.

What I think is that the show is by and large meant to be taken seriously, however it does try and be occasionally funny in mostly an explicit sense.

In any case, I think the show is better this season, and I actually quite enjoy watching it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on October 26, 2013, 08:51:23 AM
Maybe we should set in stone what makes a show good or bad.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Pebble on October 26, 2013, 08:57:43 AM
Maybe we should set in stone what makes a show good or bad.

HERESY!!!!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on October 26, 2013, 10:13:56 AM
Maybe we should set in stone what makes a show good or bad.

I thought the objective standard that was set in stone was whether or not I liked it, but it turns out that other people are apparently entitled to so called "opinions". I certainly didn't give these shits permission, they screwed up everything!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on October 26, 2013, 10:52:25 AM
Frankly, anyone who says the show is trying to be silly needs to look at that implied rape scene and then tell me that it's a "silly show".  Heck, look at the main character locking himself in a cage for tests and tell the show is just trying to be silly. 

I never said "just trying to be silly" though, and I believe the words "soap opera" or "melodrama" cover that. Personally, I don't really see how the use of death or even rape automatically means maximum serious business in this context. Especially when right after the rape episode you have Haruto stumbling down a flight of stairs upon seeing a bikini girl in a poster, which is ultimately followed up by him proposing marriage while the word flashes across the screen in GIANT LETTERS and makes Pino/OS girl excited. The same S2 episode with Haruto in a cage had Beast High, which simultaneously references Red Bull and casually makes fun of the whole "beast awakening" issue Haruto's so worried about. And now you have the people from the future saying that the "curse" is actually seen as a blessing.

Quote
You know what's also crazy? Kill la kill, Gurren lagann, and who knows what else.  You know what they are? Good for knowing how to approach tone and writing in such a way that there's no issue of confusion over how the audience is supposed to feel.  A contrived and crazy story doesn't make the show good or decent.  I've seen good crazy and this show isn't it, whether it's on purpose or not.

That's because you feel confused by what the show is doing, which is fair enough, but I don't have that issue with it. KLK and TTGL are crazy in a different way, perhaps even a better one...but that's not the only valid method certified by the ruling elders of mankind, last time I checked.

Valvrave isn't ridiculous to the point where I would consider it to be obviously somewhat tongue in cheek. More to the point they have some pretty heavy topic like the aforementioned rape scene, the child soldiers etc. that don't really have any place in a series which was apparently intentionally goofy. It is is being intentionally goofy and it still did the rape etc. then I object to that, because that's two entirely different tones.

I think that can be a valid objection, on a personal or ethical level at least, but I think there's already enough tongue-in-cheek in the series to easily argue it isn't so serious.

By the way, the child soldiers are literally mini-James Bond agents in training. L-Elf is the Super James Bond/Solid Snake-type while Cain is almost a Super Big Boss. And then you have someone like Q-Vier, who is a smiling murderous shota that plays with a PSP/Vita in between missions. I think that's pretty far removed from a realistic portrayal of child soldiers.

Quote
In any case, I think the show is better this season, and I actually quite enjoy watching it.

Well, at least we can agree about that part so far. I suppose that's the important thing, regardless of how one arrives at the conclusion.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on October 26, 2013, 10:59:59 AM
Quote from: Fumoffu!!
I thought the objective standard that was set in stone was whether or not I liked it, but it turns out that other people are apparently entitled to so called "opinions". I certainly didn't give these shits permission, they screwed up everything!

I´d agree with you on this, but I´m having problems figuring out whether Valvrave is really being serious or the show is just ****ing with me. I can´t tell!

Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on October 31, 2013, 03:22:40 PM
16:
Sayonara, Marie... You went out with a bang.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on October 31, 2013, 04:23:33 PM
16:
Sayonara, Marie... You went out with a bang.

That's what she gets for being too close to Shouko the cursed character who everyone dies around.  Akira currently next on the chopping block at this rate.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on October 31, 2013, 08:21:05 PM
16:

What the-
They actually killed her off? Ouch.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on November 01, 2013, 05:41:54 AM
16:

So this show has been a lot better on the whole ever since the second season started, and it continues here, although not without some of the flaws of the first season.

The flaw I mean in the incredibly shit conversion of information to energy. Now, apparently back in the day she climbed into the thing everyday, but here she blitzes through 2 years of memories in the space of 5 minutes. What the **** was powering the Valvraves before, the information of blood? Why couldn't it have just used her blood? Apparently she had an exceptionally poor efficiency, so I'll let that past.... well, not really, I have this terrible thing of how the Valvraves energy source was never draining before now, but whatever. Also, if you run out of memories do you really go into a coma? I'm not sure how that would work.

Ah **** it, it could have been worse.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on November 01, 2013, 10:46:18 AM
Also, if you run out of memories do you really go into a coma? I'm not sure how that would work.
The impression I got was that she had already run out of memory more or less at that point, so it ate up her personality / her spirit, or something to that effect.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on November 01, 2013, 04:54:53 PM
"Runes" are totally made-up super-science information particles with no physical shape but which are defined as consisting of memories/emotions/DNA. I don't think biting necks (or sex) provides a different kind of "runes" here, it's just another vector to access them. That's the impression I've got so far.

Pino/VVV girl said Marie had a broken limiter and that's why she was dropped as a test pilot. I guess she was already losing runes/memories way too fast back then. Apparently that also allowed her to power-up the robot more than normal during the battle in this episode at the cost of fully draining herself. It looks like without any memories you become almost functionally dead.

Presumably Haruto and the others don't really have this problem yet, but they might still lose "runes" albeit at a much slower rate than Marie. You probably don't notice a very slow and gradual memory loss unless you're explicitly told about it, or if you do go around biting other people on a regular basis, which seems to be what they're arguing about next episode. Or so I imagine.

In any case, aside from all of this crazy stuff...the way the episode was executed sold me on it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 01, 2013, 06:07:31 PM
16:

This episode was too retarded for words.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on November 03, 2013, 09:44:10 PM
16

The idea here was actually good (seriously, who kills off a character after killing off the same character the episode before?).   The execution... errrrr
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on November 07, 2013, 02:23:31 PM
17:
Sayonara H-Neun... You didn't go out like Marie, but at least you tried.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 07, 2013, 04:38:47 PM
17:

Haruto is starting to piss me off.

-VALVRAVES ARE GREAT; THEY GIVE ME POWAH
-VALVRAVES ARE GREAT; BUT WHY IS EVERYBODY ELSE GETTING ONE?
-VALVRAVES ARE BAD; THEY MADE ME RAPE SOMEONE
-VALVRAVES ARE BAD; KILL ME EL-ELF YOU SEXY BASTARD
-VALVRAVES ARE BAD; BUT IT IS MY BURDEN, SO I WILL KEEP GOING.. C'MERE EL-ELF'S NECK
-VALVRAVES ARE BAD; THEY STEAL MEMORIES AND KILL LITTLE GIRLS!  I DON'T WANNA FIGHT NO MORE
-VALVRAVES ARE BAD; BUT IT IS MY BURDEN, SO I WILL KEEP GOING... BACK IN YOUR HOLE ONII-CHAN

I do believe this is going to continue, too.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on November 07, 2013, 06:10:00 PM
17:

As bland as Haruto is, I'd rather he have doubts that cause him to bitch for a while but not actually run away.

His attitude was a little annoying, but not really unexpected given the circumstances and what had just happened to Marie.

Either way, L-Elf took care of shutting him up. I applaud that, as well as his stunts at the beginning and end of the episode.

Best parts were the Dorssian parts this time though.

Edit: If you break everything down to its constituent parts, 95% of anime is "typical" anyway. But I don't think this specific mix is too common at all.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on November 07, 2013, 08:38:38 PM
17

For some reason this all feels typical.   
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on November 08, 2013, 09:26:46 AM
15: Oh Marie, we hardly kn-

16: Oh Marie, we hardly knew ye.

17: Oh H-Neun, we hardly knew ye.

Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on November 08, 2013, 09:42:42 AM
I don't know, I'm betting that H-Neun probably isn't dead. No body, and that scene was way too vague about it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on November 08, 2013, 09:50:33 AM
I don´t know, Cain was drenched in blood. By the way, H-Neun gets shot in the arm and next scene the side of the face in covered in blood too. Strange.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on November 08, 2013, 10:39:17 AM
Also, if you run out of memories do you really go into a coma? I'm not sure how that would work.
The impression I got was that she had already run out of memory more or less at that point, so it ate up her personality / her spirit, or something to that effect.

Yep, that got explained well enough.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 09, 2013, 03:53:57 PM
17:  I'm surprised how much of this episode focused on the Dorssian side of things, but obviously it was split between that and Haruto/L-Elf bromancing.  Regarding the Dorssian side, it now seems like Cain got turned into a Magius sometime between the mission H-Neun mentioned and the Dorssian revolution, but now it just looks like Dorssia's entire leadership might have fallen under their influence including even the princess.  Obviously a lot of mysteries with the whole ritual and the quest for more ruins that lead to things like the secret underwater laboratory disguised as a warship.  In any case it now makes sense why Dorssia was so interested in getting the Valvrave's when they should have been focusing on national rebuilding after the revolution that apparently took place.  It also looks like they are going straight after Module 77 now with their cloaked ship and honestly I don't see any way for them to defend against whatever's coming even if Shoko is some sort of idiot savant leader.  Maybe the royalist faction can be contracted to repay the favor somehow, but who knows how powerful they really are.

On the other side there was the Haruto drama and I almost see his character as what I think Guilty Crown was trying to do with Shu on some level.  Instead of him just moping hopelessly and one dimensionally every episode and then becoming a dictator at random for a few episodes after his friend dies  though Haruto often tends to have some pretty traumatic triggers for his reactions and flip outs.  In this case it's him obviously not wanting to end up like Marie, but also not wanting to follow L-Elf's IMO sensible plan of spreading the Valvrave piloting duties around with the other students to alleviate the rune depletion issue because he doesn't want others to end up like Marie, Aina or the people on the ship.  Honestly his behavior makes sense to me and is not annoying in the slightest and ultimately he finds his resolve again at the end of the episode, though the future looks even bleaker for him now.  This is the sort of stuff heroes are made of, not whatever the hell Shu became.  Anyway remember when this show was all happy go lucky and stuff....yeah me either?  :-\
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Kiniest on November 11, 2013, 05:41:20 AM
There is a person arguing that we are all idiots for not being able to tell that this show is a parody and argues that true parodies act like the real deal. Anyone willing to argue this?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on November 11, 2013, 10:34:55 AM
There is a person arguing that we are all idiots for not being able to tell that this show is a parody and argues that true parodies act like the real deal. Anyone willing to argue this?

I haven't really watched the second season, but this series always takes itself far too seriously to be parody.  Some parts are probably tongue-in-cheek and others are playing with Sunrise conventions, but it's not a parody. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on November 11, 2013, 07:03:07 PM
There is a person arguing that we are all idiots for not being able to tell that this show is a parody and argues that true parodies act like the real deal. Anyone willing to argue this?

I'd point to Girls und Panzer, because that is an obviously tongue in cheek affair despite acting like the real deal. Besides, as I said to you personally, it doesn't matter if it is apparently intentional, because it it is a parody, then it's shit at it.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on November 11, 2013, 07:05:24 PM
There is a person arguing that we are all idiots for not being able to tell that this show is a parody and argues that true parodies act like the real deal. Anyone willing to argue this?

Personally, I think people who tell others "They just don't get it" are the actual idiots. And I LIKE Valvrave.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Kiniest on November 11, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
There is a person arguing that we are all idiots for not being able to tell that this show is a parody and argues that true parodies act like the real deal. Anyone willing to argue this?

Personally, I think people who tell others "They just don't get it" are the actual idiots. And I LIKE Valvrave.
Yeah, I don't any problems with you or others liking this show (I have a friend who enjoys this show quite a bit), but when someone calls other people stupid over their point of view towards the show being different, I draw the line. I've seen people literally tell others that "they have no taste" over this. I shouldn't be bitching like this, but it ticks me off a lot.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 11, 2013, 09:04:14 PM
People that argue that this show is a parody probably just don't watch many mecha/sci-fi anime or are stealth trolling IMO.  I've seen a lot of weird comments about this show around the internet (mostly season 1 though) that would lead me to say there's a lack of understanding for some of the content proper or what looks like just outright ignoring things and claiming it makes no sense when in a lot of cases I think it does within the context of the show, but I'm not sure if it's a matter of "getting it" overall if "it" refers to what I think it does.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on November 12, 2013, 10:14:01 AM
From the first season, this show took itself too seriously to be a parody.  A parody is something intentional: a show that makes allusions to, but doesn't completely copy, some aspect of a genre or other show and makes jokes about it.  The way this show relies on tropes and and standard sunrise conventions without even a hint of irony, I doubt it could be even close to a parody.  The serious tone just makes it even less likely.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Marid King on November 12, 2013, 01:07:39 PM
I dropped this show way back, but generally, when you have to resort to using a 'secret key' or conspiracy, which significantly alters your perception of the show, in order to say a show is good, it's bad. The qualities that mark a good show should be numerous, varied, and obvious, and it should speak for itself. If the gist of the current discussion is, "If Valvrave is a parody, then it is good, so let's argue whether or not it's a parody", then alarm bells are going off for me, because for some reason we're not having any of the hundreds of conversations that should happen before we get to something so silly. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 12, 2013, 02:19:56 PM
There is a person arguing that we are all idiots for not being able to tell that this show is a parody and argues that true parodies act like the real deal. Anyone willing to argue this?

No.  Whomever this person is they're a ****ing moron.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 12, 2013, 02:29:44 PM
I dropped this show way back, but generally, when you have to resort to using a 'secret key' or conspiracy, which significantly alters your perception of the show, in order to say a show is good, it's bad. The qualities that mark a good show should be numerous, varied, and obvious, and it should speak for itself. If the gist of the current discussion is, "If Valvrave is a parody, then it is good, so let's argue whether or not it's a parody", then alarm bells are going off for me, because for some reason we're not having any of the hundreds of conversations that should happen before we get to something so silly.

I don't think one persons bad argument/position inherently validates all narratives that this is an exceptionally bad show, it just makee that person look like an idiot with no concept of how to properly evaluate what they're watching. The shows tagline was "Valvrave the system that will reveal the truth of the world" so of couree its going to have a conspiracy plotline.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on November 12, 2013, 02:42:29 PM
KS, he's arguing against the idea of being a parody defending the quality of the show.  If anything, I think he's also saying that none of the conversations that do lend a show to be a parody aren't happening. 

Edit: Marid, you can correct me if I'm wrong.  That's just what I took from what you posted.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Marid King on November 12, 2013, 05:08:55 PM
To restate my post:

1. Shows are never 'secretly' good.
2. People never argue whether or not a legitimately good show is 'secretly' good.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: RyuKyotei on November 12, 2013, 05:28:24 PM
Ah, I figured I skewed the meaning a bit then.  I apologize. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Marid King on November 12, 2013, 06:04:24 PM
My fault for not being clear, really.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Reckoner on November 12, 2013, 07:58:12 PM
I don't think Valvrave is a parody, but there is definitely a matter of "rule of cool" here. Why is something as preposterous as genetically modified high school kids piloting mechas powered by Satan to defend their colony's independence executed in this show with little hint of irony? Because in the creator's eyes, this is a fun story line. It's definitely a crazy story complete with many sunrise mecha tropes, and a lot of things tend to happen just because the makers think it's cool (Think of of Code Geass for comparable example).

Now whether or not Valvrave succeeds at being a fun show depends. Personally i found much of season 1 pretty lacking, only becoming better towards the second half aside from a rape incident), but season 2 has actually been pretty enjoyable so far. I'm not expecting the show to be perfectly logical or deep, but it's been fun.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 12, 2013, 08:01:08 PM
^

Bingo.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 12, 2013, 09:20:34 PM
^

Bingo.

So this is the only bad show this season right TIF?  :P
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 13, 2013, 01:41:59 AM
This one has a head start on being awful. The others have to suck worse just to catch up.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on November 14, 2013, 09:43:44 PM
18

My God, did Haruto's father lose his marbles in the vacuum of space or something?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 14, 2013, 09:54:42 PM
18

My God, did Haruto's father lose his marbles in the vacuum of space or something?

Dad: Haruto I've built this upgrade for the Valvrave for you, if you install it you'll surely defeat those Dorssians in no time!
Haruto to himself:....it's just a piece of junk  :o
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on November 14, 2013, 10:44:59 PM
18:
I have to ask? Will Valvrave really use all the mecha cliches that are known to man. This week we get the asshole father and reunion of star crossed lovers (I assume L-Elf and Liselotte are lovers) that we all know won't end well.

And "Allow me to abduct you." Could there ever have been a more romantic line. Brings a tear to my eye.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on November 15, 2013, 11:17:41 AM
This week we get the asshole father and reunion of star crossed lovers (I assume L-Elf and Liselotte are lovers) that we all know won't end well.
Considering we saw a little L-Elf in one of the future shots and that Lieselotte is probably immortal, I at least don't think we'll see either of them die in the next episode or two. Or at least I hope so.

And that line was simply badly translated. "let me take you away" or something like that would have worked much better. Not like that hasn't been a pretty common romantic theme for a rather long time.

I guess Haruto is going to fail pretty miserably with obstructing his dad's plans in light of what we've seen of the future. Which made that part rather amusing to watch.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 15, 2013, 03:50:20 PM
18:

Yeah, of course Haruto's father is like that.  As if he didn't already have his motivations to destroy the Valvraves and end the "curse", now he's got daddy issues.

Jesus.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on November 15, 2013, 07:19:47 PM
18:

Yeah, of course Haruto's father is like that.  As if he didn't already have his motivations to destroy the Valvraves and end the "curse", now he's got daddy issues.

Jesus.

Well, in credit to the staff, at least they waited until the series was 3/4ths through to hit that part of the Checklist.  I think that's a good sign of restraint.

You can stop laughing now.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on November 15, 2013, 09:06:25 PM
18:

Going by that punch to the face, Haruto got over his "daddy issues" pretty damn quick by all indications. Can't really get upset over it.

That said....his dad's going to essentially get what he wants, at least according to the flashforwards where the "curse" is seen as a blessing. .

It was also amusing to see the father was basically a goofier version of Tem Ray plus Ulen Hibiki, both of which were played in a more serious direction.

L-Elf had the best scenes this episode though, even if he's almost certainly going to be trolled next time.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on November 21, 2013, 05:56:04 PM
19:
No! The greatest love story in anime history can't end so suddenly!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 21, 2013, 07:44:48 PM
19:  Alas poor Liserlotte, we hardly knew ye; Haruto; a lady of infinite compassion, of most excellent fancy; she hath given me all her life; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is! My gorge rises at it. Here hung those lips that I were wont to have kissed yet know not of. Where be your runes now? Your smile? Your hopes and dreams? Your flashes of merriment, that were wont to set Dorssia on a roar?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on November 21, 2013, 09:38:32 PM
19

What a weird show this is.  I'm not sure what trajectory it's trying to take or what emotions it wants us to feel, but it's not doing much for me right now.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on November 22, 2013, 04:26:31 AM
19: No! Not another character with less than thirty lines!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on November 22, 2013, 03:40:59 PM
19:

So what, this plot point of the girl that had been developed since pretty much episode 1, which was gradually built up to.... resolved and ended in one episode. What the ****.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on November 22, 2013, 06:07:55 PM
19:

So what, this plot point of the girl that had been developed since pretty much episode 1, which was gradually built up to.... resolved and ended in one episode. What the ****.

You expected anything less from Valvrave?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on November 22, 2013, 07:45:04 PM
Sadly, I expected more.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on November 22, 2013, 08:02:43 PM
19:

I didn't care for the princess, to be honest, and I think her fate wasn't a surprise at all. I was just wondering when or how it'd happen.

From that angle, at least I do appreciate the fact she had a free choice in the matter. I honestly prefer that to accidents or murders.

So this was all rather standard stuff, conceptually speaking, regardless of the over-the-top mannerisms and situations involved.

That said, I liked quite a number of individual scenes and lines in this episode as well as the general direction of the action sequences.

Given the above, I'm interested in how this will affect L-Elf. That's the actual point, since his one-sided obsession is no longer applicable.

And I guess we got an explanation for the Magius too. Very crazy, but fitting for the material given all we've seen up to this point.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 22, 2013, 09:24:12 PM
You people seriously crack me up some weeks.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on November 23, 2013, 03:15:33 AM
19:

what emotions it wants us to feel
You saw her as a cute loli, you saw her die. You're supposed to go "**** nooooo---" or something along those lines.
Or at least that was roughly my reaction.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 23, 2013, 09:28:08 AM
I don't know about "cute loli".  She was earlier, but the dead incarnation is hardly loli.

Anyway:

19:

So, the prospect of Magius / Human relationships is brought up and quickly discarded in favor of heartstring tugging "drama" and L-Elf getting a reason to go batshit insane.  Kind of hard to give a damn about someone when their role was limited to half an episode of exposition used as a plot device to give Haruto MORE angst about his humanity.

Seriously, these last few episodes have all been used to do one thing:  drive Haruto nuts.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on November 28, 2013, 01:01:22 PM
20:

*broadcasts Saki´s gruesome public execution*

"woah look at her! isnt she a monster?!"


This show is great.

Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on November 28, 2013, 02:02:51 PM
20:

That sure was some guro broadcast live on global TV. Can't this girl get a break? We know she'll survive this, but still...

I don't think that will improve Dorssia's PR, but at least it'll be a distraction and ruin the school nation's reputation in the process.

As expected, L-Elf's still pretty depressed. It looks like they're setting up some of the Nazi Youth to defect in the near-future.

The rest of the episode was relatively typical stuff, though the news reporter/documentary guy was slightly amusing.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on November 28, 2013, 02:11:59 PM
20:

Because that far into the future CGI technology hasn't progressed to the point where they could fake that, even if it was live. There is no proof that it was live either. None one would believe a video like that.

Bullshit.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 28, 2013, 02:33:28 PM
20:

Because that far into the future CGI technology hasn't progressed to the point where they could fake that, even if it was live. There is no proof that it was live either. None one would believe a video like that.

Bullshit.

Interesting consideration but I think that's a little bit of and odd thing to focus on.  Still I appreciate the angle I suppose, not something I would have ever considered or wondered about considering the same thing could be said for a lot of shows. 

Anyway one thing that amuses me about this show is that the degree of suffering inflicted on the characters feels a little too proportional to the popularity poll held after season 1.  It's like the staff was like, "Oh so you people like the sassy idol girl and the crafty wunderkind....well **** you, enjoy them having everything they try to do blow up in their face for the rest of the season and every characters faith in their convictions tested to the utmost limit".

Valvrave's universe is a cruel mistress.  Like U.C Gundam shits always going down but I'd never want to live there.   :o
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on November 28, 2013, 03:35:12 PM
I guess, but L-Elf's obviously going to recover and I'm half-betting Saki will escape with inside help, so all that suffering will be temporary in the end.

Btw, current experts in the field can fake video and audio recordings pretty well right now too, but many people still believe in them at face value and scandals break out due to such things, even if some of them could turn out to be false. Then again, I think the show has already established that its level of realism is supposed to be rather low, which is why these things don't bother me. .
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on November 28, 2013, 04:20:12 PM
Supposed to be rather low? I'm not sure about the word "supposed".

Probably a bit of a nick picky thing to pick on on the surface KS, but I reacted because I realised there is no way a tactic like that would ever work in real life. Even if he had gone in front of them all IRL and shot them in the face (and have them subsequently heal) they wouldn't have reacted like "OMG WHAT THE **** U BEEN HIDING FROM US" to Shoko. There are several reasons:

1) It might be faked even IRL.
2) It might have been something the Dorsians did to her that caused her to heal
3) So she's immortal, that could mean that she's a product of science.... oh wait. If anything that make her the victim.
4) Do these serious politicians seriously think that a bunch of highschool children would be plotting something... at all?
5) It's too convenient for the Dorsians.

That sums it up really.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 28, 2013, 04:21:37 PM
I guess, but L-Elf's obviously going to recover and I'm half-betting Saki will escape with inside help, so all that suffering will be temporary in the end.

Btw, current experts in the field can fake video and audio recordings pretty well right now too, but many people still believe in them at face value and scandals break out due to such things, even if some of them could turn out to be false. Then again, I think the show has already established that its level of realism is supposed to be rather low, which is why these things don't bother me. .

Yeah pretty much the same here.  Maybe I have a really dark sense of humor too but I sort of chuckled at just how much blood came out of Saki when they impaled her.  It felt very much like one of those old school 80's OVA's in terms of the ultra violence.  If this show had been like say Samurai Flamenco where it first established itself as kind of down to Earth before pulling a fast one on us by raising the stakes with real super villains I'd be more uneasy, but this show has been pretty much in the kick reason to the curb section of sci-fi since day one.

Supposed to be rather low? I'm not sure about the word "supposed".

Probably a bit of a nick picky thing to pick on on the surface KS, but I reacted because I realised there is no way a tactic like that would ever work in real life. Even if he had gone in front of them all IRL and shot them in the face (and have them subsequently heal) they wouldn't have reacted like "OMG WHAT THE **** U BEEN HIDING FROM US" to Shoko. There are several reasons:

1) It might be faked even IRL.
2) It might have been something the Dorsians did to her that caused her to heal
3) So she's immortal, that could mean that she's a product of science.... oh wait. If anything that make her the victim.
4) Do these serious politicians seriously think that a bunch of highschool children would be plotting something... at all?
5) It's too convenient for the Dorsians.

That sums it up really.

Valvrave and real life have so little in common I'm not sure it's really worth applying much of real life to it's scenario.  This show is more about portraying a seemingly unbelievable turn of events and then putting a further spin on it like only anime can.  In that respect I'm more curious to see how Jior handles the counter to this latest gambit than anything right now.  I think it's fair for people to be asking some questions after this and how they get answered by the Jior crew could prove something of a turning point in the conflict.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on November 28, 2013, 07:16:47 PM
I thought they were going to show a tape of Haruto raping Saki.

They didn´t.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on November 28, 2013, 08:03:47 PM
20

So, their argument is "our opponents are vampires; therefore, you should join us, the Nazis."  Even if the video could be believed, the idea is laughable.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 28, 2013, 08:11:46 PM
20

So, their argument is "our opponents are vampires; therefore, you should join us, the Nazis."  Even if the video could be believed, the idea is laughable.

I think the idea was more to forestall people from joining Module 77 in a league against Dorssia.  I don't remember anyone saying anything about joining Dorssia in any sort of alliance.  Not really sure what's laughable about that.  Extreme yes, effective...well they've got everyone about to ask Shoko a lot of questions right now so mission accomplished.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on November 28, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
Not really sure what's laughable about that.  Extreme yes, effective...well they've got everyone about to ask Shoko a lot of questions right now so mission accomplished.

Remind me again, weren't the people Shouko was about to negotiate with in open war with Dorssia?  If yes, I see this is as an enemy of an enemy type of deal (especially since Dorssia position is outright extermination of everyone who is not them).  If no, then yeah it may be effective.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 28, 2013, 08:59:50 PM
Not really sure what's laughable about that.  Extreme yes, effective...well they've got everyone about to ask Shoko a lot of questions right now so mission accomplished.

Remind me again, weren't the people Shouko was about to negotiate with in open war with Dorssia?  If yes, I see this is as an enemy of an enemy type of deal (especially since Dorssia position is outright extermination of everyone who is not them).  If no, then yeah it may be effective.

The way I understand it Dorssia as it was basically no longer exists and is a puppet state of the Magius.  Arus' President Jeffrey Anderson (the George W. Bush kind of looking guy) was made aware of the Magius earlier in the season but the level of conversion of their leadership for now at least does not seem to be on the same level as Dorssia if at all.  This is a problem though considering he's in the same room as Shoko and actually knows more about what's going on than her and could totally just be playing along and have his own agenda or even already be converted.  Really I'm not even sure that this is in doubt cause he was there when Amadeus K. Dorrsia was converted as well.  Dorssia also doesn't want extermination, they, or rather the Magius want a steady supply of runes and plan to make Module 77 that source now that they're submarine lab was destroyed a few episodes back

Basically I think what's really going on is that Module 77 is damned if they do damned if they don't.  Probably the only ones they can really trust are each other and now that the Kamitsuki secret is out their trust is strained.  I'd expect the Dorssian attack is imminent next episode.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 29, 2013, 05:50:30 PM
Quote
Not really sure what's laughable about that.

The words "bad ****ing writing" come to mind.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 30, 2013, 04:02:47 AM
Quote
Not really sure what's laughable about that.

The words "bad ****ing writing" come to mind.

You have a really strange kind of one dimensional view on this show that obviously I don't agree with or find much value in considering, but then we don't seem to have particularly much in common at all do we?  Your very blunt charge of "Bad ****ing Writing"  is noted and really that's all that can be said here as a response.  Well....I could say that personally I find the show regularly engrossing from start to finish and am particularly into things this season and while it isn't always the tightest in some instances I don't think any other show I'm currently following has as much going on to talk about and consider.  I'll offer that I think the dialogue which can be cheesy is often buoyed by some very great performances by the voice cast like for example L-Elf during the scene where he's trying to go over what he could have done to change the outcome of last episode.  It's convincing to me that the guys in a frustrated and distraught state and that this is the only way for him to cope. 

Also to clarify my disagreement.  I just don't see the egregiously bad writing here having considered multiple angles such as the progression of the cast over the course of the show, how the plot and world building has been executed and paced, and how interesting it is to me to watch.  It just gets a lot more right than it does wrong as a sci-fi/mecha series save some stinkers like episode 5 and the early goofiness of the Sakimori kids being a little overemphasized in season 1.  I'll continue to agree very much that the writing can be fast and loose and a little blunt in some respects, but it can also cut to the heart of things like in scenes such as Shoko and Haruto's reunion this episode or some of the decisions the cast makes coming back to haunt them in rather ironic ways.   As someone with no particular issue with these sorts of things as long as it's consistent I can't really call it bad.  If things keep up with this and Gundam BF I might consider this the best season of made for TV original Sci-Fi/Mecha since 2008's offering Gurren Lagann, Gundam 00, Code Geass R2 and Macross Frontier albeit to nowhere near the same level and by comparison to what has come since.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on November 30, 2013, 07:50:03 AM
So basically you don't mind bad writing so much?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 30, 2013, 11:03:26 AM
So basically you don't mind bad writing so much?

I don't acknowledge that it's bad writing to begin with so I don't see how I can answer that seriously and I think you know that.  It's a blatantly loaded question so I'll reply with this instead.

I don't acknowledge that you, TIF and couple others have any particular insight into this show that is of any value to me at the moment nor that is well supported by anything other than continuously stating that the writing is bad and taking a consistently negative and IMO bizarrely one dimensional and nit picky approach to discussing it week after week if there's any real attempt at discussion at all.  At least Shadowmage attempted a real discussion about the show that wasn't a loaded dialogue.  You and TIF, honestly I feel like I'm reading 4chan posting or something here from you guys and it's like you aren't even really trying to convince me of anything and just flat out insulting my taste now.  Look you're entitled to your opinions and tastes but it's only that as far as I'm concerned at the end of the day.  Hell I think a lot of the shows that this site lauds as superior have some atrociously bad writing, but I'm not going to go up to someone and be all like, "Oh your taste is shit and you like bad writing" because I at least recognize that they see it differently much as I vehemently disagree as a matter of perspective and opinion.  I'm not nearly that presumptuous and full of myself to play that sort of card, but admittedly it's getting really tempting now to just take the gloves off and if we're going to bring it down to the level of calling people out on a matter of taste and approach then I'd sooner argue that not every show has to be "subtle" pretentious bullcrap in order to be considered well written like some people here seem to feel and that there is room for the kind of fast and loose stuff that Valvrave offers that can work for a show and which I feel is working plenty fine this season.  You'll find others that agree as well that this season has really picked it up and been overall much tighter in writing though maybe not always here.  And maybe you know there's other ways of approaching the issue of writing that is different between people and respective series and to draw on a quote from this site to emphasize my point:

Not this subjective/objective bullshit again. Look, it should be pretty obvious that almost every single aspect of an anime can only be qualified "subjectivly" (sic). A review is subjective by default, there is no such thing as an objective review, it's such a stupid thing to say. A review cannot be objective (apart from things like "this anime has 12 episodes" or other facts that don't actually make any comment as to whether the anime is watchable).

Just like this person I feel that there's no such thing as objectively bad writing that you can go up to a person and say, "boy you must really be into terribly written schlock"  and such charges against shows themselves are subjective by default and ought to be treated as such by each particular individual to be agreed with and discussed or disagreed with and also discussed (hopefully) .  ;)

TL;DR: Time to get over yourself a little bit there bud, the pedantic nitpicker thing is only going to get you so far sometimes.

Getting a bit more back on track with the actual discussion instead of dealing with petty insults

Supposed to be rather low? I'm not sure about the word "supposed".

Probably a bit of a nick picky thing to pick on on the surface KS, but I reacted because I realised there is no way a tactic like that would ever work in real life. Even if he had gone in front of them all IRL and shot them in the face (and have them subsequently heal) they wouldn't have reacted like "OMG WHAT THE **** U BEEN HIDING FROM US" to Shoko. There are several reasons:

1) It might be faked even IRL.
2) It might have been something the Dorsians did to her that caused her to heal
3) So she's immortal, that could mean that she's a product of science.... oh wait. If anything that make her the victim.
4) Do these serious politicians seriously think that a bunch of highschool children would be plotting something... at all?
5) It's too convenient for the Dorsians.

That sums it up really.

Yeah this is incredibly nitpicky and here's my replies

1)  This is a theoretical that doesn't in anyway discount the reaction that people had
2)  People don't just heal from being stabbed through the chest in real life so this point doesn't make much sense to me.  Anyway yeah what Saki did should be impossible hence the reaction of shock and wanting answers as to what the Valvrave pilots are capable of makes sense.  Of course people are going to feel threatened by a group of immortals with super powered robots running around and question whether rushing into an alliance with them is in their best interest.  It's all PR for these countries and their internal politics anyway and if the PR opportunity isn't as readily there anymore because the Module 77 crew is no longer the talk of the town as the poor semi-defenseless bullied kids that Dorssia has cornered then they have little to gain and would sooner walk away from the table and a war with Dorssia.  It makes plenty of sense to me the representatives reactions not knowing all the answers and demanding them and I like that it puts Shoko in a tough spot now since the secret was kept from her as well.
3)  This isn't really a factor that's in play right now.  People want answers and are demanding them from Shoko, that's what matters at the moment.  Why should they care if it's a matter of science or not before they can even begin to have an idea of what they've just seen since they've known about the existence of Kamitsuki for mere minutes at best.
4)  You're projecting here and getting ahead of yourself again.  They've demanded answers as I keep pointing out, we'll get to the fallout and how they react next episode once they have them or don't.  I don't recall at any point in the episode where anybody said, "Just what are those high school kids scheming".  I believe the single sole political response we've seen so far is Arus' presidents incredulous, "President Sashinami, what is the meaning of this?!" which to me is a perfectly fair question to ask.
5)  Err yeah that's kind of the point right now that Dorssia has forestalled the PR machine of Module 77 and those countries including a superpower rushing into an alliance for them.  The entire goal was to make the situation more convenient for the Magius/Dorssia as was the order handed down from the Council of 101.  These kids are officially making things difficult so they needed a counter and used the card they were literally holding captive.  I don't get why your mad about Dorssia/Magius basically doing what it had to do to regain control of the political conspiracy side of the situation or where the bad writing is therein.

Your basic argument seems to be that it could have been faked and that people should be asking more questions even though it's  part of the cliffhanger and we have yet to see the fallout therefore the writing is bad, which frankly to me is a rather weak and desperate one that relies on drumming up a bunch of subjective and debatably relevant nitpicks rather than actually finding inherent contradictions in the narrative or tone.  Essentially you just don't seem to like the turn of events or something, but have yet to prove anything about inherently and objectively bad writing that could give you significant leverage to come out and start questioning my tastes and consideration of the level of quality of the writing for the show.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 30, 2013, 11:43:55 AM
Quote
it's like you aren't even really trying to convince me of anything and just flat out insulting my taste now.

Holy shit... control your ego.  We aren't insulting the writing, or anything else that is terrible, about Valvrave to convince or ridicule ONLY YOU.  We don't give a flying fist **** if you like Valvrave and we're not into futile discussions of subjective tastes.  You like it?  Great.  Nobody cares.  I know I don't.  Stop taking it personally, because we aren't going out of our way to make it personal against you.

Quote
...I feel that there's no such thing as objectively bad writing that you can go up to a person and say, "boy you must really be into terribly written schlock"  and such charges against shows themselves are subjective by default and ought to be treated as such by each particular individual.

No shit.

Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 30, 2013, 12:25:58 PM
Quote
it's like you aren't even really trying to convince me of anything and just flat out insulting my taste now.

Holy shit... control your ego.  We aren't insulting the writing, or anything else that is terrible, about Valvrave to convince or ridicule ONLY YOU.  We don't give a flying fist **** if you like Valvrave and we're not into futile discussions of subjective tastes.  You like it?  Great.  Nobody cares.  I know I don't.  Stop taking it personally, because we aren't going out of our way to make it personal against you.

So basically you don't mind bad writing so much?

Not personally addressed?  ???  Also hey I'm all for a little more ego control here, but you have to give a little to get a little.

Quote
No shit.

Well at least we agree on something I guess.  By all means pass the word along.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on November 30, 2013, 01:24:13 PM
I think the whole "omg she's not human!!!" part might be a Japanese thing. I recall seeing similar things in other shows.
You know, kinda sorta similar to the whole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin thing, for example.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 30, 2013, 02:14:20 PM
Quote
Not personally addressed?

Only after you started questioning the commentary did someone address you specifically.  Naturally, if you approach someone's subjective opinion you're going to get a reply directed at you.

Quote
I think the whole "omg she's not human!!!" part might be a Japanese thing.

I think it's bad writing, and whenever it is used, it is bad writing.  There is no way that reactions would be strong to that.  Most people wouldn't be able to comprehend what they're even seeing.  Arguably, a huge number of those people would think the whole thing is a hoax, since it defies everyone's perceptions of reality.  People don't accept what they're shown or told that easily, especially if it is something so completely extreme.

What would have worked better is if Saki "fed" on someone, because a sympathetic human teenage girl and international singing icon suddenly giving someone the fang would be a lot more shocking.  It would require less proof since she's the one doing it herself, rather than her having something done to her in shocking and gory fashion.

Of course, Saki and the other Valvrave pilots haven't had to feed on anybody yet.  That seems to be Haruto's problem only.  Speaking of bad writing, how often does he need to feed?  They hinted earlier that the "hunger pangs" were getting more frequent, and with more Valvraves using up Rune energy, you'd think he'd have to bite (or rape) someone more often.  When was the last time Haruto gave someone the fang?  Especially now that L-Elf is out of service, someone's gonna get bit.

Also, why was there only one sex moment?  The explanation is that, apparently, sex provides rune information as much as biting someone does, and the previous attack was brought on by Pino's whimsy.  What, one bang, a cigarette, and she's good for another upteen years?  Guess we can't call HER a slut.  The farther we get removed from that moment, and the more explanation, the more stupid and random it seems.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 30, 2013, 02:50:35 PM
Quote
Not personally addressed?

Only after you started questioning the commentary did someone address you specifically.  Naturally, if you approach someone's subjective opinion you're going to get a reply directed at you.

Quote
I think the whole "omg she's not human!!!" part might be a Japanese thing.

I think it's bad writing, and whenever it is used, it is bad writing.  There is no way that reactions would be strong to that.  Most people wouldn't be able to comprehend what they're even seeing.  Arguably, a huge number of those people would think the whole thing is a hoax, since it defies everyone's perceptions of reality.  People don't accept what they're shown or told that easily, especially if it is something so completely extreme.

What would have worked better is if Saki "fed" on someone, because a sympathetic human teenage girl and international singing icon suddenly giving someone the fang would be a lot more shocking.  It would require less proof since she's the one doing it herself, rather than her having something done to her in shocking and gory fashion.

Of course, Saki and the other Valvrave pilots haven't had to feed on anybody yet.  That seems to be Haruto's problem only.  Speaking of bad writing, how often does he need to feed?  They hinted earlier that the "hunger pangs" were getting more frequent, and with more Valvraves using up Rune energy, you'd think he'd have to bite (or rape) someone more often.  When was the last time Haruto gave someone the fang?  Especially now that L-Elf is out of service, someone's gonna get bit.

Also, why was there only one sex moment?  The explanation is that, apparently, sex provides rune information as much as biting someone does, and the previous attack was brought on by Pino's whimsy.  What, one bang, a cigarette, and she's good for another upteen years?  Guess we can't call HER a slut.  The farther we get removed from that moment, and the more explanation, the more stupid and random it seems.

As I keep pointing out we don't yet know the full extent of the fallout and considering the next episode is entitled the cost of lies I think that'll be the centerpiece there.   As for the sex thing that's kind of a fair point as is the lack of obvious feeding scenes or impulses for the Valvrave pilots lately.  As for the whole approaching someone's subjective opinion, I don't exactly think implying someone likes bad writing in such a presumptuous manner is warranted and you certainly can't cry foul and start claiming someone needs to check their ego when they response unfavourably.  seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too TIF
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on November 30, 2013, 03:36:39 PM
As we were told at the beginning of season two, Haruto is exclusively feeding on L-Elf right now (well, at least until he locked himself up when the Dorssian princess died).

During the first season, Haruto was actively trying to avoid biting people and needed to be snapped out of his seizures multiple times without getting fed, which was said to make the attacks more frequent and eventually led to the rape at the end of the season . Whether that was purely some sort of emergency mode, or there is a secret reproductive function involved or some other reason, that's not been clearly addressed so far. Maybe it won't be, for all I know, but we'll see.

 After episode 13, he should be regularly eating runes from L-Elf off-screen in order to prevent such attacks. The teacher himself spelled this out, so that should be why things are under control at the moment. It would appear that since Haruto is  the pilot of VVV 1, which is directly connected to Pino and Rave engine, he is meant to function as the main source of runes. It would seem that the other robots and their engines are mere copies or derivatives of the original unit and thus have no 666 mode, so energy consumption for those models should be lower. That might explain why the other pilots haven't had any attacks yet and they'll probably go through season two without experiencing this.

Cain has VVV 2 with another little alien in the engine and who knows how things work for him, being a Magius, but at least he seems to be keeping the stolen robot completely inactive so far.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 30, 2013, 03:51:33 PM
Quote from: KS
As for the whole approaching someone's subjective opinion, I don't exactly think implying someone likes bad writing in such a presumptuous manner is warranted

It was a logical path of the conversation.

-I call it bad writing.
-You like the writing.
-You must like bad writing, because you like this.

There's no presumption because the comment isn't really meant to be taken seriously, in my opinion.  I'd like to remind you that I didn't say you liked bad writing.  I do disagree with your opinion that this isn't bad writing, but that should be obvious.

Quote
and you certainly can't cry foul and start claiming someone needs to check their ego when they response unfavourably.  seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too TIF

I'm not crying foul on anything.  You're taking criticism of Valvrave far too personally.  Criticism of the show is not criticism of your tastes.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Reckoner on November 30, 2013, 04:03:54 PM
Criticism of the show is not criticism of your tastes.

If only the entire human race understood this :p.

Anyways. As far as writing quality goes for Valvrave... It's a check your suspension of belief at the door kind of series. Trying to make too much logical sense of it just leads to nowhere. This is not to say that one should not criticize it for being so ridiculous, but I would say that to be able to enjoy the series in any capacity requires you to accept the crazy. Ultimately this series is not something I would qualify as being great or anything, but it sure hasn't been boring. It's entertaining, but not what I would pronounce as an example of good storytelling. Reminds me of how I feel about a lot of Hollywood action films. Some nice special effects, and a little fun if you don't take it too seriously, but  vapid and not very memorable in the end.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on November 30, 2013, 04:13:51 PM
...There is no way that reactions would be strong to that.  Most people wouldn't be able to comprehend what they're even seeing.  Arguably, a huge number of those people would think the whole thing is a hoax, since it defies everyone's perceptions of reality.  People don't accept what they're shown or told that easily, especially if it is something so completely extreme.

Of course everyone is going to take it face value. Why is this a problem in this kind of show?

Quote
What would have worked better is if Saki "fed" on someone, because a sympathetic human teenage girl and international singing icon suddenly giving someone the fang would be a lot more shocking.

More shocking than having her skewered in front of the module as gushes of blood squirt everywhere? That would be too tame for Valvrave. Remember the writers in this had Saki raped awhile back just to shock you.

Quote
Of course, Saki and the other Valvrave pilots haven't had to feed on anybody yet.  That seems to be Haruto's problem only.  Speaking of bad writing, how often does he need to feed?  They hinted earlier that the "hunger pangs" were getting more frequent, and with more Valvraves using up Rune energy, you'd think he'd have to bite (or rape) someone more often.  When was the last time Haruto gave someone the fang?  Especially now that L-Elf is out of service, someone's gonna get bit.

We don´t really know how much mileage Haruto gets from biting or ****ing someone. Maybe he´s biting L-elf offscreen, maybe he is still half tank, I don´t know.

Quote
Also, why was there only one sex moment?  The explanation is that, apparently, sex provides rune information as much as biting someone does, and the previous attack was brought on by Pino's whimsy.  What, one bang, a cigarette, and she's good for another upteen years?  Guess we can't call HER a slut.  The farther we get removed from that moment, and the more explanation, the more stupid and random it seems.

You really want more sex scenes in this? We had one and it was pretty awful.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on November 30, 2013, 04:55:32 PM
Quote
I think the whole "omg she's not human!!!" part might be a Japanese thing.
I think it's bad writing, and whenever it is used, it is bad writing.  There is no way that reactions would be strong to that.  Most people wouldn't be able to comprehend what they're even seeing.  Arguably, a huge number of those people would think the whole thing is a hoax, since it defies everyone's perceptions of reality.  People don't accept what they're shown or told that easily, especially if it is something so completely extreme.

What would have worked better is if Saki "fed" on someone, because a sympathetic human teenage girl and international singing icon suddenly giving someone the fang would be a lot more shocking.  It would require less proof since she's the one doing it herself, rather than her having something done to her in shocking and gory fashion.
I dunno if I'd call it bad writing. Remember the final episodes of Shiki? Striking similarity there, although the build-up was fairly different.
Not like I'm trying to say it's great, I actually hate it when this thing comes up. I just don't think it's bad writing.
I've heard and read about people believing stuff considerably more shaky than this and even so being more than ready to happily accept murder for it in RL, so I guess I just have a lot of suspension of disbelief to employ here.


Aeshma: Yeah more sex scenes please. So long as they involve Saki.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on November 30, 2013, 09:28:30 PM
20:
Ah Saki. Poor girl just can't catch a break.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on November 30, 2013, 10:07:44 PM
20:
Ah Saki. Poor girl just can't catch a break.

I'm not sure what the show has against her and I'm almost starting to wonder if all those scenes of her from the future are there by producer demand to forestall a riot against Okouchi for making it seem like he enjoys torturing the character a little too much by more or less assuring the viewers that in the end she'll be mostly okay.

Also I suppose I grudgingly accept your reasoning TIF, but I'm curious to hear Fumoffu's followup on my supposed affection for bad writing.  I suppose since I'm in good mood at the moment on account of some favorable sports results I'll chalk it up to the brashness of youth for the time being.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on December 05, 2013, 08:22:30 PM
21:
Wow! Um... What more really needs to be said. A gripping episode from start to finish. I felt like it passed in half the time. I know people are gonna rip Shoko apart, but you have to look at it from her perspective a little bit.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on December 05, 2013, 09:16:28 PM
21

And here I thought Gunslinger Euphie was bombastic.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 05, 2013, 10:17:15 PM
21: This is literally the most bitter show.  Everyone always talks about Okouchi but Sometimes I am reminded that this is the guy who directed red garden  Talk about shoot first ask questions later this episode though.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on December 06, 2013, 01:40:54 AM
21:

Well that was brutal.

So next let's go with the "turn all of the students into immortals" plan after all... and then follow that up with some revenge genocide.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on December 06, 2013, 01:54:54 AM
21:

I ****ing loathe the show for the massively shit plot device they used to get here. That's why I was pissed at how NO ONE WOULD EVER BELIEVE IT. I mean, let alone the dumbass students of THEIR OWN SCHOOL, but the POLITICIANS? For the second part they just said "yeh, so this is obvs JIOR who did this lol" and EVERYONE BELIEVED THEM.

"yep, LOOKS ****ING LEGIT"

THEY DIDN'T EVEN ****ING SEE WHEN THAT KID THEY SHOT DIDN'T COME BACK TO LIFE. DIDN'T THINK TO EVEN TEST IT DID THEY?

Okay, so literally not one of the soldiers was like "these immortals... they are surprisingly mortal aren't they? Do you reckon perhaps they aren't monsters?"

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, BECAUSE THEY GUY ON THE SCREEN SAID THAT THEY WERE. HE ALSO SAID THAT THIS RANDOM SHIP THAT SUCKED THE LIVES OF HUMANS BELONGED TO JIOR. THAT'S WAY MORE LEGIT EVIDENCE.

This is reminds me of why I hated the first season.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on December 06, 2013, 02:09:31 AM
Okay, so literally not one of the soldiers was like "these immortals... they are surprisingly mortal aren't they? Do you reckon perhaps they aren't monsters?"
I wondered about that, too. After I finished watching, that is. I was too busy wishing the soldiers a painful death (and cheering when they got blown up) during the episode.
I guess the less you care about/like the show going into an episode like this, the more time you'll have to think about small (well, not so small) details like this while you're watching. Which is going to bring down your enjoyment of it even more.

Thinking about it now, that sudden alliance which would have had to happen in a matter of what, two minutes? does seem like it should feel really ****ing suspicious.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 06, 2013, 02:25:07 AM
Okay, so literally not one of the soldiers was like "these immortals... they are surprisingly mortal aren't they? Do you reckon perhaps they aren't monsters?"
I wondered about that, too. After I finished watching, that is. I was too busy wishing the soldiers a painful death (and cheering when they got blown up) during the episode.
I guess the less you care about/like the show going into an episode like this, the more time you'll have to think about small (well, not so small) details like this while you're watching. Which is going to bring down your enjoyment of it even more.

Thinking about it now, that sudden alliance which would have had to happen in a matter of what, two minutes? does seem like it should feel really ****ing suspicious.

I'm almost convinced now that the Arus president really is a Magius or just that much of a toadie for them.  As for the soldiers themselves, I might be questioning more shit if it were me, but that sort of thing seems reserved for the Karlstein kids and the Arus military has always been shown to be utterly incapable of independent thought and a just follow orders kind of military so if anything they're bloody consistent here.  They just do whatever the boss says and if they say to split the sea of students be it Senator Moses or the president that's that.  Arus military is a joke and this is where L-Elf really could have helped cause I don't see any of this going down if he were there.  That said if I have a problem with the episode it felt like there were too many plot points coming to a head all at once and one too many contrivances that allowed things to proceed exactly as Cain had planned once again since the Valvrave universe apparently revolves around him including even L-Elf. 

You have Arus siding with Dorssia, the thing with the ship in their hanger that Haruto captured but never told anyone about, the thing with Haruto never telling Shoko about what happened to him when he got into the Valvrave or about the Magius cause he's had this complex about not wanting her to think she's a monster (I guess there's irony here), him forgetting the cave memory (this was kind of painfully contrived to be honest), That Iori chick shooting Haruto cause of what happened to her dad and it outing him and then him blurting out loud that he didn't remember their most important childhood memory, L -Elf being out of commission so unable to formulate a counter strategy which Cain pointed out as disappointing and then Kyuuma having to sacrifice himself to save Haruto because Shoko was foolish enough to trust Arus a second time after they almost massacred them back in season 1 and sold out the person she said she'd always trust.  This show seems to enjoy having it's principle characters make critical mistakes followed by some ironic twist, usually that sort of thing is reserved for antagonists which is why I called this show bitter.

I guess for now Haruto is finally going to have to man up on his own and snap L-Elf out of things and find a way to get him back to the Valvrave so he can use the Harakiri blade and buy them some time for L-Elf to fix things by possibly outing the Magius once and for all.  Why am I not so confident that Haruto is up to the task.  I mean if he is great it'd be a big step in his character for sure, but he's ****ed too after seeing his best friend die.  I don't know how things can sort themselves out when it seems like this universe is finding every way possible to pound Module 77 into submission.  Plus then you have Cain who is apparently god in this universe so no idea how they're going to deal with him even if they can get the world back on there side somehow.  Then there's the matter of the flash forward.   Lot to cover still, especially if it does only end up going 3 more episodes.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on December 06, 2013, 03:12:22 AM
You know, I have to ask this:  is it possible they might be setting up the ending for a 3rd season or movie?   (The argument that they'll finish up all of the plot threads really doesn't work, as they're going to add at least 2 new ones just in the process of trying to close a few)  I really just want to see what happens when people contemplate another season.  :)
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on December 06, 2013, 05:23:54 AM
21:

Is it me or the script took a huge dump over Shoko? I understand she was upset, but betraying Haruto, of all people?
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on December 07, 2013, 12:03:41 PM
21:

The best part were the final few minutes. I still understood the rest of the episode, but I didn't particularly like it on a personal level.

We've known that the President of ARUS is closely involved with the Magius since the beginning of S2 (or even last season's cliffhanger).

Simply put, the whole operation (including the meeting) was just a huge trap to provide a purely superficial excuse for the general public back home. It can be contradictory, but said public will never know the details anyway. I doubt they're transmitting the massacre itself on Live TV either.  The ARUS soldiers either already knew the plan beforehand, so the "OMG I'M SHOOTING THEM BUT THEY'RE NOT REVIVING" complaint is not applicable at all,  or they don't care and are just mindless killers.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 07, 2013, 10:58:31 PM
You know, I have to ask this:  is it possible they might be setting up the ending for a 3rd season or movie?   (The argument that they'll finish up all of the plot threads really doesn't work, as they're going to add at least 2 new ones just in the process of trying to close a few)  I really just want to see what happens when people contemplate another season.  :)

Totally down for a third season since there's so much story still left to tell.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 09, 2013, 02:13:24 PM
21:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 10, 2013, 12:11:43 AM
21:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Those poor children, how dare you laugh at their plight.  :-\
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on December 12, 2013, 07:29:25 PM
22:
Time for some Haruto/L-Elf angsting! Oh right! The fujoshi are rejoicing as we speak.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on December 12, 2013, 09:58:39 PM
22

I enjoyed all the anger boiling over.  Everything went south for all of them.  All they have left is bickering.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 13, 2013, 01:21:32 AM
22:  Kind of the reflective episode I felt the show needed after last time if a little on the nose at times.  I'm not sure why nearly every character had to look off model, but I don't know why Sunrise even bothers with these 3rd party companies.  They leak episodes and kind of do a crappy job.  Anyway show of hands people who figured it would be Saki saving Haruto and L-Elf this episode and not the other way around.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 13, 2013, 02:08:58 AM
22:

Well yeah. Of course Haruto and L-Elf were going to get the band back together. Last episode was the darkness before the dawn, so to speak, and they're still the good guys. Time for revenge.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Thot on December 13, 2013, 05:43:39 AM
You know, I have to ask this:  is it possible they might be setting up the ending for a 3rd season or movie?   (The argument that they'll finish up all of the plot threads really doesn't work, as they're going to add at least 2 new ones just in the process of trying to close a few)  I really just want to see what happens when people contemplate another season.  :)
I think a movie is most likely at this point. I don't think they have quite enough material left to do another full season, but then they could just pull some new stuff out of their ass as they have been.
In any case, they won't be able to finish this in the remaining few episodes, not unless they plan to just leave most of the things that happen from now till the last time skip out.
Which seems like a very unlikely thing to happen unless the BD sales totally tanked, which I doubt they did.


22:

So, we're actually gonna get some genocide and/or conversion now, huh. Perfect.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on December 13, 2013, 10:46:37 AM
22:

Well, they explained why the head of ARUS was such a retarded asshole, but what about everyone else in his cabinet? Normal people even? Meh, whatever.

It was a good episode, ****ing cheesy to the max, but it was good fun. I like this a lot more than the first season.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on December 19, 2013, 11:28:48 PM
23:
Great penultimate episode. Again, I don't necessarily like how Shoko is acting, but what choice does she have now? She can't let her emotions override her duty as Prime Minister. She made her foolish, foolish mistake and now she has to live with it.

Also... Yamada!!!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 20, 2013, 12:14:47 AM
23:  Well that was about what they had to do to reverse things and L-Elf was about the only one to really be able to pull it off both in terms of the planning and execution.  The door could even be open to Arus being able to defy the Magius and at least help module 77 out against Dorssia cause it doesn't feel like their president is following them willingly so much as out of fear and convenience for his position.  That changes though with their secret out.  Yamada's death honestly wasn't that surprising though since he's been more or less living on borrowed time ever since his units arm got destroyed and has basically looked like he's had a death wish the whole series. 

Anyway not quite Zeta Gundam episode 37 but still pretty thrilling to see.  If this ends next episode though it's going to be kind of disappointing considering all that it feels still has yet to be explored.  What can they really do though with so many characters dying left and right.  This season sort of has a sense of finality to it, yet kind of doesn't and I'm led back to remark I remember hearing the director Matsuo making early in season 1 about "who said Valvrave is only 2 season?" though I can't remember the full context.  In any case we won't know until the new year possibly since I believe most things are postponed next week for Christmas Break.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on December 21, 2013, 07:06:32 PM
23

While the whole Haruto losing his memory thing was less than compelling, the finale where L-Elf Rambo'ed his way to the Magius was pretty sweet.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on December 21, 2013, 08:44:04 PM
23

While the whole Haruto losing his memory thing was less than compelling, the finale where L-Elf Rambo'ed his way to the Magius was pretty sweet.

L-Elf still reads the script, hehe.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 26, 2013, 01:28:09 PM
24:  You know I'm one of Sunrise studios biggest defenders, I think the whole train wreck thing is a huge load of generalized bullshit on the part of the internet and a matter of case by case basis same as any studio but this rushed finale really makes it hard for me to defend them in this instance.  I think they've made some really good and really poor staff choices with their series this year and the outcomes have more often than not reflected those, but I think this one goes more to Aniplex.  They clearly adore Okouchi and Yoshino and keep using them and the results of late keep speaking for themselves.  I used to think it was mainly Yoshino that was the issue with their pairing but its become increasingly clear that both have their drawbacks when working within 2 cour frameworks.  Kou Matsuo also seems to have proven a questionable choice as director having little experience in the field of mecha/sci-fi anime and it showed in his first attempt.

For whatever reason I'm not terribly mad though.  The show was an enjoyable if flawed ride with some wasted potential that won't be entering the pantheon of great mecha series of yore any time soon, but I'm not buying that it was extra special bad.  I'm currently leaning on an average 6/10 for both seasons combined (definitely no higher) and just really hope for better staff choices in the future for mecha/space anime that involve a little less Okouchi and Yoshino as stop gaps and more genre vets like BF and Yamato 2199 had.  I think its no coincidence that Gundam BF is so great when it has a more down to Earth veteran like Yosuke Kuroda writing who keeps things focused while Valvrave is such a mixed bag with Okouchi and his fast or loose rule of cool roller coaster writing style.  I also feel though that this series got cut short and was meant to be 50 episodes but just never found the audience.  There's no other way to explain all the dropped plot points and stuff that was teased that just never came to pass and the rushed resolution that was this episode.  It just doesn't do much justice to the build up or the potential of the rather huge cast.  If it's possible to pinpoint an exact point where I figure it must have been decided that the show wasn't getting green lit for more it was episode 21 with the whole school shooting thing.  Things really sped up at that point they got back into space towards this resolution when the pace of the rest of the season was nowhere near that breakneck and more deliberate as if it had at least 12 more episodes to work with considering they were introducing new ideas and plot points at the time like the whole thing with Haruto's father.  At this rate Valvrave I think becomes the shortest Sunrise original mecha series ever if I'm not mistaken too at only 24 episodes which makes it almost impossible to do the sorts of things I'm used to seeing out of them.

In any case this basically leaves me with exactly the same feelings Overman King Gainer did which ultimately doesn't come as too big a surprise considering the writer and themes. Okouchi really needs to broaden his writing style though if he wants to step back into the mecha anime writing scene cause its clear he draws on a very familiar list of ideas each times and tries to cover for it by putting wacky new twists on them or taking things in extreme directions that are sometimes hard to pull back from.  Anyway once I get subs I plan on making a list of all the unanswered questions and dropped plot points this series is now left with as a result of this capped finale cause I think that's what has me more sore than anything.  Shipping crap and the "best girl not winning" or whatever doesn't bother me like it does so many, fast and loose writing doesn't bother me much either, but having the feeling of having my time wasted and plot points being left unresolved ala LOST is the kind of thing that really doesn't sit well with me and is one of my biggest pet peeves (Don't waste time, don't be boring, don't be overly pandering at the expense of sensible writing) and could even lead me to dropping the show down even further to 5/10 given some time to mull over things.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on December 26, 2013, 01:54:15 PM
@KS:

For me everything always comes down to the fact Valvrave S1 simply didn't sell, which means that their flashforward teases for more stories couldn't go anywhere since Aniplex wasn't giving the series an additional set of episodes after S2. You can definitely tell the teasing of such future content needed at least another season to be properly addressed.

They probably put the future scenes in the show to begin with as a potential framework for expansion just in case Valvrave was successful, but that wasn't going to happen after the mediocre sales for the first season and the lower pre-orders for the early second season. To be frank, even better writers couldn't easily dig themselves out of that hole under similar circumstances (potential for expansion cancelled due to commercial failure), outside of not risking anything by omitting such material in the first place. Which is a rather moot point..

Gundam Build Fighters is aiming for something very different so directly comparing it to Valvrave seems rather short-sighted. Especially because I think the rollercoaster writing style is a function of the intended nature of the project. BF is meant to be a standard robot cartoon for kids and for old-school Gundam fans with a rather straightforward plot. Valvrave is basically Aniplex trying to get Sunrise to somehow replicate Code Geass in terms of craziness except with way less episodes and without the same director (who had a larger role in its success than people tend to think).  The initial mandate, so to speak, dictates how a given writer approaches the material.  I suppose Okouchi will, like he has done before,  just go back to writing stuff that's more normal and less crazy without much of a concern. He gets a lot of adaptation work.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 26, 2013, 02:23:49 PM
@KS:

For me everything always comes down to the fact Valvrave S1 simply didn't sell, which means that their flashforward teases for more stories couldn't go anywhere since Aniplex wasn't giving the series an additional set of episodes after S2. You can definitely tell the teasing of such future content needed at least another season to be properly addressed.

They probably put the future scenes in the show to begin with as a potential framework for expansion just in case Valvrave was successful, but that wasn't going to happen after the mediocre sales for the first season and the lower pre-orders for the early second season. To be frank, even better writers couldn't easily dig themselves out of that hole under similar circumstances (potential for expansion cancelled due to commercial failure), outside of not risking anything by omitting such material in the first place. Which is a rather moot point..

Gundam Build Fighters is aiming for something very different so directly comparing it to Valvrave seems rather short-sighted. Especially because I think the rollercoaster writing style is a function of the intended nature of the project. BF is meant to be a standard robot cartoon for kids and for old-school Gundam fans with a rather straightforward plot. Valvrave is basically Aniplex trying to get Sunrise to somehow replicate Code Geass in terms of craziness except with way less episodes and without the same director (who had a larger role in its success than people tend to think).  The initial mandate, so to speak, dictates how a given writer approaches the material.  I suppose Okouchi will, like he has done before,  just go back to writing stuff that's more normal and less crazy without much of a concern. He gets a lot of adaptation work.

I totally feel the same way about the goals behind this series.  Aniplex already tried to replicate Code Geass themselves with Guilty Crown and then clearly figured if they could get the studio that made it involved then things would work out this time.  I fully believe that was about as much thought as Aniplex put into Valvrave.  People conveniently forget that they are the senior partner for Valvrave or that they were involved in the production at all.  Personally I've always felt that Sunrise works better when left to it's own devices.  Compare AGE to Build Fighters and 00 and now Code Geass to Valvrave.  If Buddy Complex turns out alright next season being a fully Hajime Yatate production it might seal the deal on that feeling for me.  As it stands I could definitely feel a bit of Aniplexs cynical commercialism and general carelessness as a production head behind key portions of Valvrave struggling with what I associate Sunrise most with which is good old fashioned general if bloody fun.  I mean Sunrise is a very commercialized production team too don't get me wrong, but Aniplex is on a whole different level. 
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Shadowmage on December 26, 2013, 09:44:39 PM
Oh dear God, another anime to review.

24

I honestly don't think there is a better way to to end the sieries asde from the insanity they started off with.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: SQA on December 26, 2013, 10:10:49 PM
It might do 3kish for the 2nd season.  That's probably enough to green-light a second season movie recap/write an ending.

Valvrave also wasn't quite a Trainwreck.  Valvrave just didn't have much of a direction it was going in the first place, so it couldn't go off the rails too hard.   It's no Guilty Crown in that regard (which had a Beginning, an iconography & an End worked out.  The other 90% of the writing was apparently done by drunken lottery).    Still wasn't good, however.  I think because it took itself way too seriously.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 27, 2013, 12:25:30 AM
It might do 3kish for the 2nd season.  That's probably enough to green-light a second season movie recap/write an ending.

Valvrave also wasn't quite a Trainwreck.  Valvrave just didn't have much of a direction it was going in the first place, so it couldn't go off the rails too hard.   It's no Guilty Crown in that regard (which had a Beginning, an iconography & an End worked out.  The other 90% of the writing was apparently done by drunken lottery).    Still wasn't good, however.  I think because it took itself way too seriously.

I'll still never get this whole trainwreck thing or what the exact elements each person thinks must be present in order to drop the term on a thread.  I don't think the internet really does either.  I really think this series just didn't have enough time or popularity to get all the episodes they needed to make the most of out of all the content and had to rush the resolution without touching on some pretty important stuff that would have given it more weight.  Instead you kind of just have Cain going "yeah this is my beef", it basically being easy to draw the conclusion and see what everything ultimately leads to and that's it.  The show kind of has the bare minimum to give it a narrow pass on it's overall story and themes and the resolution of them but literally nothing more.  It was also a crazy week to week watching waiting to see what would happen next and how it had kind of a bitter yeah that's typical of the cynical paranoid social media dominated world feel to it.  In all honesty it came as very little surprise to me that the end question and overall theme of the show is do you still believe in humanity.  I have a feeling it was going there considering how ****ing bitter it was and how everything the cast did seemed to result in spite and their doom.

One interesting thing is that the whole co-existence with the Magius thing clearly failed cause of the times they lived in but it looks like the potential is there in that whole future segment to try the whole not paranoid, secretive alone together and xenophobic thing.  To bad like almost every major character in the present had to get horribly ****ed over in order to even make the chance of such a thing a chance.  In the long run though I guess that's what history and conflict is kind of like, every so often a generation of people bleed out in the hopes that maybe several generations down the line might have a hope of doing at least a little better than they did when the world went to shit.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 27, 2013, 04:42:14 AM
24:

I'm not really sure this one needed more episodes for anything, unlike Galilei Donna, whose obviousness lead to one of the worst endings in recent memory.  In the end, what was the running theme here?  "Do you believe in humanity"?  How was that encapsulated in this show at all?  Aside from the idealistic Shoko, what human in this show is really worth believing in?  In the end, they don't make peace with the Magius, which just turns this into another "good guys vs. bad guys" show.  Everybody comes out of this looking worse than when they went in, and our victims end up being a pack of high schoolers who inevitably become immortal rulers of a galactic empire.  I mean, what the what?

As for the themes, I will admit that they do a reasonable job of connecting the major dots that are necessary.  Well, most of them.  I'm still not sure why Pino wanted Haruto to rape Saki, and then it just never comes up again.  I get that Haruto was having "hunger pangs" thanks to Pino running out of rune energy, but biting her would have solved the same problem.  It ends up coming off completely random and for no value other than to shock people.  In fact, an awful lot of the events in the show are done for shock value, and that never holds up on its own.  The two major shock events are the aforementioned rape, which doesn't hold up under the show's own rules, and the massacre of high school teenagers by mean people with guns, which also ends up not holding up after a casual thought process.  I guess I could go so far as to include both the deaths of Aina and Marie as worthless shock value.  Aina's because she was a pretty innocent character caught literally in the crossfire of a war that meant nothing to her (kicking the dog, or killing it in this case) and Marie because of how quickly that escalated.  I know Marie's was used to show how bad memory leaking was, but it still was used to goad the audience.  Maybe Lieselotte's death as well.  We know so little about her, and never get the chance either.  Ends up just being a plot device.

I don't know.  Honestly, the weight of the show started to collapse right around the time that the conspiracy started to get huge.  The Magiuses, Haruto's dad, the people eating, then all the intrigue with the exposing of the Kamitsuki, etc etc etc... Once that snowball got a rollin'... it got pretty absurd.

As a special "**** you" to Valvrave's writers, NOW they used the "footage was doctored!" excuse.  Yeah, piss off.

I'm not going to go so far as to call this a "train wreck", but it sure as hell isn't good either.  The Code Geass comparisons are apt, because... yeah, it does look like they wanted all the wackiness that made Geass fun to be used again.  Problem is, nobody remembered that for all the fun Geass' first season was, the second was a ****ing train wreck.  If they're going to try to recreate something, they should try to recreate something that worked.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Fumoffu!! on December 28, 2013, 04:31:08 AM
Well that's over.

This series started so well before going downhill rapidly and becoming what the first season was. I think a 4 is apt.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: MCAL on December 28, 2013, 07:42:51 AM
24:
Ironically the ending would have been better if there wasn't a time-skip at all.

But enough about that, Sunrise realized what was the ultimate OTP. HarutoxL-Elf forever!!
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 28, 2013, 03:47:00 PM
Trainwreck this trainwreck that, trainwreck this trainwreck that, plot hole this, OTP that.  Get some new lines internet, there's much to criticize about this show but Jesus Christ with that damn catch phrase already and a word that does not mean what people seem to think it means.  Are people really that afraid of saying something that might be construed as springing from independent thought and insight to some degree?  Do people really think they're going to stand out when there's like dozens of variations of literally the exact same reaction post about this shows finale?  I don't know it just really annoys me when people apparently can't think of anything definitive or personalized to say about this show either way.

This is a general retarded internet thing that drives me up the wall by the way and not necessarily aimed at any of the gang here who have for the most part managed to say things that don't feel copy pasted from the handbook of internet commentary.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 28, 2013, 03:55:05 PM
Succinct and appropriate.  Don't bitch because you don't share the view.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 28, 2013, 07:06:38 PM
Succinct and appropriate.  Don't bitch because you don't share the view.

Whatever dude
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 28, 2013, 09:40:18 PM
Look, KS, you've been trying to pull every excuse out of the bucket to justify this pile of shit since the beginning.  Go back and re-read this thread.  First it was the writers are making this obviously tongue-in-cheek, then it was only appreciable by people who understand Sunrise mecha shows, then it was full on parody, the latest excuse is that they weren't given enough time.  C'mon man.

You tried.  The SHOW is the problem, not you.  The writers did not do a good job.  Sunrise isn't going to win them all.  Need I remind you of this little thing called Sore wa Kakeru Shoujo?  Code Geass' second season wasn't much to write home about either. Not everything Sunrise does is gold.  Sometimes it is gold painted cat turds.  It happens.

You'll note nobody is kvetching over Build Fighters, because that show doesn't suck.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 28, 2013, 10:07:24 PM
Look, KS, you've been trying to pull every excuse out of the bucket to justify this pile of shit since the beginning.  Go back and re-read this thread.  First it was the writers are making this obviously tongue-in-cheek, then it was only appreciable by people who understand Sunrise mecha shows, then it was full on parody, the latest excuse is that they weren't given enough time.  C'mon man.

You tried.  The SHOW is the problem, not you.  The writers did not do a good job.  Sunrise isn't going to win them all.  Need I remind you of this little thing called Sore wa Kakeru Shoujo?  Code Geass' second season wasn't much to write home about either. Not everything Sunrise does is gold.  Sometimes it is gold painted cat turds.  It happens.

You'll note nobody is kvetching over Build Fighters, because that show doesn't suck.

Now you're speaking my language as that's pretty much how I'd some things up myself.  As for Soaring Cake Girl, it left a similar impression, crazy goofy fun with some genuinely engaging moments and kind of an abrupt ending that leaves some questions unanswered.

As for Gundam Build Fighters, nobody is bitching but also nobody is really watching either.  I guess that's the curse of getting labelled a kids show while Valvrave is "late night adult anime".
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on December 30, 2013, 01:50:19 AM
It's all a matter of degrees. We can all agree that Valvrave had issues and flaws, but the specifics remain open to both interpretation and personal preference. Even better shows don't automatically appeal to everyone or are somehow immune to criticism. I don't think the fact that this particular series turned out to be disappointing in some respects means everything about it was wrong. For example, I didn't like most of the ending, but I still enjoyed many parts of the series before that point. Certainly more than, say, TypicalIdiotFan ever did. That's not going to change, even if there's little or no reason to argue about this anymore. What's done is done.

So my final words on Valvrave The Liberator...it was crazy enough to be entertaining and occasionally surprisingly interesting, but the flaws kept it down and the end result was nothing special. In terms of similar shows, Code Geass was better, both as a whole and on a seasonal basis, since (among other things) R2's ending managed to successfully wrap up a lot of the previous madness and give it meaning in a way that defied the real or perceived flaws. In retrospect, that other narrative kept its core thread alive and in my eyes it could legitimately be called satisfactory or even good (since for me the positives outweighed the negatives).

Unfortunately, for the most part that didn't really happen with this conclusion, which felt functional but also more rushed and hollow. Perhaps it was always a little too much to expect that Valvrave would ever accomplish something on that level, since lightning rarely strikes twice. Can't say I didn't have fun while it lasted though.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 30, 2013, 02:24:33 AM
Quote
We can all agree that Valvrave had issues and flaws, but the specifics remain open to both interpretation and personal preference.

Interpretation?  No.  Personal preference?  Sure.

Interpretation implies that there is some kind of meaning or pretext that requires extrapolation and examination.  I don't think there is a case to be made that this is in any way vital to Valvrave nor do I think it is what the writers intended.  Far as I can see, Valvrave is a pretty straightforward series without a whole lot of wiggle room.

That being said, as far as personal preference goes, I think we have to remember that while there are certainly things that heavy mecha fans are going to get out of a series like this more than the rest of us, the rest of us don't care either.  We're arguing on the basis of the show as a whole, not the parts.  If we can't even get on the same page there, of course there is going to be some rubbing of egos.  When we say that this show is bad, we mean that on a general scale.  Whether it is a bad "mecha anime", for example, is not what we care about.  I don't think Green Lantern is a bad "superhero" movie, I think it is a bad movie period.  Whether it has any relative merits vis a vis other superhero movies is moot.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: AH on December 30, 2013, 10:46:19 AM
You're using the term "interpretation" in the narrow sense of finding some sort of profound meaning, while I was using it in an all-encompassing one that does apply to Valvrave as well as literally to anything else, because I do think subjectivity cannot be separated from the viewing (or even the living) experience. There might be an abstract general scale, but each of us uses our own unique individual set of expected criteria, lines of reasoning, emotions and personal sensibilities to measure all this stuff up against it. Otherwise, there would be universal agreement about every single review on this website or any other. 




Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: KS on December 30, 2013, 11:01:18 AM
You're using the term "interpretation" in the narrow sense of finding some sort of profound meaning, while I was using it in an all-encompassing one that does apply to Valvrave as well as literally to anything else, because I do think subjectivity cannot be separated from the viewing (or even the living) experience. There might be an abstract general scale, but each of us uses our own unique individual set of expected criteria, lines of reasoning, emotions and personal sensibilities to measure all this stuff up against it. Otherwise, there would be universal agreement about every single review on this website or any other.

This sounds pretty reasonable and logical to me.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: Aeshma on January 02, 2014, 11:40:12 AM
I liked this show. I wish they didn´t go for some certain things, but it was an entertaining watch.
Title: Re: Valvrave the Liberator
Post by: ImperialX on January 02, 2014, 07:01:44 PM
As for Gundam Build Fighters, nobody is bitching but also nobody is really watching either.

I don't know man, I'm watching it and it's pretty awesome.