The Nihon Review Forum

The Nihon Review Topic Discussion => Anime => Topic started by: Marid King on April 06, 2013, 07:18:54 PM

Title: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 06, 2013, 07:18:54 PM
1:

Probably the most anticipated show of the season for me.

That wasn't an amazing first episode, but I liked it, and the titans are seriously creepy.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on April 06, 2013, 09:20:05 PM
Episode 1

A solid first episode if I've ever seen one.  It's completely over the top in normal Tetsurō Araki style, but I thought everything felt appropriately dramatic to establish "this is why the protagonists are the way they are."  Looking forward to more.

Also, that sakuga in the OP...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMXgHfHxKVM
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 07, 2013, 01:35:08 AM
1:

Since I knew the synopsis, I knew what was happening in ep 1, so that wasn't a shock.  What is interesting is the choice of Araki as director, something you probably would notice without being told.  Though he might have finally cast Yuuki Kaji properly, which is a decent thing.   But this is one of those series where him going over the top makes a lot of sense.

Now, I'm sure this has been done to death in threads about the Manga, but, well, the Ancient Greeks probably could have solve the problem of killing Titans, in large numbers, in about 5 years.  But any series like this always requires you to suspend disbelief in the ability for humanity to actually address problems until the Protagonists show up.  Something I'm at least willing to do, as the Spiderman-style fight scenes to come should be a lot of fun.

Oh, and 1 thought: Cannonball Bolos. 

Edit: I should add that I'm still bothered by 12 year olds giving high level philosophical reasons for their choices and thinking, as there is maybe ever a handful of those on the planet capable of that type of thinking.   But I guess someone has to give the exposition.

Though props to Eren's Dad.  You don't get ones that levelheaded very often in Anime, so that was nice to see. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on April 07, 2013, 04:13:28 AM
A very grim tactic they could use is loads corpses up with poison, though that assumes the Titans are susceptible to poison.

Anyway, this is going to be really really really really popular. I liked the first episode on the whole, even if they cast Yuuki Kaji (who I simply dislike), the titans were very scary, and it was pretty graphic in it's depictions of death. It's over the top, but for here once I think it works.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 07, 2013, 05:33:32 AM
Much props to the series for the best use of "Sinister Grin" to date.  It just makes the androgynous Titans sickly menacing. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on April 07, 2013, 12:50:13 PM
Well that scratched an itch that Jojo's ending left in it's wake for me.  This is what you get when I.G is actually trying with something.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on April 07, 2013, 06:15:16 PM
1: That was pretty incredible, however, I have a problem pertaining to Erin.

Mainly being the consistent comparision he makes to humanity as livestock. If he's lived like he has, he wouldn't be able to come up with such a clever comparision. Yes, these children are too smart for their own good.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 07, 2013, 06:50:10 PM
Is Eren meant to be seen as a genius? His dad's a famous doctor, so maybe this is intentional.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 07, 2013, 07:05:22 PM
Is Eren meant to be seen as a genius? His dad's a famous doctor, so maybe this is intentional.

No, he's just meant to give clunky ep 1/chapter 1 exposition.  And it goes to his character.  A character wanting to "leave" the walls is fully understandable, at that age.  12 year olds giving that level of philosophical argumentation?  Not really believable.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on April 08, 2013, 06:26:29 AM
1:

Aww god, where's Kratos when you need him...

That was one great first episode. No bullshit; just cut to the chase and throw the whole world into a shithole. It's deliciously depressing and makes good entertainment. I don't really expect anything intelligent from this show, and I hope it keeps up the intense action and morbid storyline. And I kinda see where director Araki's influences come into play: no wonder I felt traces of Death Note and Kurozuka here and there... just didn't expect Production I.G to produce this (it looks more like something Madhouse would do).

The titans were horrendously creepy, especially when they resemble humans. Not sure if we are gonna get exposure on how titans came to be and what kind of history humans have had with them (definitely not a pleasant one), but I would appreciate it if I get something eventually.

Just keep it up. Nothing perks me up more after a long day at work than bloody violence and people in despair.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 12, 2013, 03:32:41 AM
1:

Neat.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Thot on April 12, 2013, 04:37:43 PM
1:

About the only complaint I have about this is the toned-down violence when compared to the manga. Although I doubt they'll be able to keep that up, there's enough scenes ahead that they could hardly censor without losing impact.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 12, 2013, 04:56:59 PM
1:

About the only complaint I have about this is the toned-down violence when compared to the manga. Although I doubt they'll be able to keep that up, there's enough scenes ahead that they could hardly censor without losing impact.

I feel like we're going to need to use some Lord Denathor quotes/clips for this series.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on April 13, 2013, 09:14:37 PM
Episode 2

It seems that this episode was dedicated to world building and providing further motivation for the protagonist to get his rage on.  Let's see what the show can do with this now that there is a full 24 episodes to build out a story.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 13, 2013, 11:21:58 PM
2:

Reminds me of Psycho Pass episodes 1-2. A big, 2 episode opening that sets up the series. I feel like things are only going to get better from here.

I seem to be missing a time skip. So our trio goes outside the walls, survive a year, and then get into the army?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 14, 2013, 01:45:22 PM
Apparently we'll get another time skip in by ep 5 or 6.  They've actually started "later" in the series, as these are stories from flashbacks.   At least, that's what manga readers have said.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on April 14, 2013, 06:48:26 PM
2: I am generally impressed with the story thus far, however... Ugh, I just can't help but wonder "why" with the Titans.

I'm going to be very annoyed if the Titans are still a plot device to drive the story by the end of the series; I despise it when the story is driven by something like that.  I'm also a bit annoyed with how blindly idealistic Eren is, I'm not saying its not justified due to his situation, but it doesn't feel right. I guess its just th eshounen aspect of the series we're talking about? I do like Mikasa at the moment, though.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 14, 2013, 07:51:08 PM
Blindly idealistic? What do you mean?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on April 15, 2013, 06:45:24 AM
Blindly idealistic? What do you mean?

I'm referring to the fact he can't take the reality of his limits up his head. Mikasa had to slap it into him.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 15, 2013, 09:56:48 AM
Blindly idealistic? What do you mean?

I'm referring to the fact he can't take the reality of his limits up his head. Mikasa had to slap it into him.

I see. Guessing this is going to bite him in the arse later.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on April 18, 2013, 07:24:38 PM
2:

Hearing that this is going to be a 2-cour show just makes my day. It's typical: shit happens right at the start, and that serves as the protagonist's overarching motivation throughout the show. With a plot like that, you need a lot of time to mold a character from an angry kid to a full-fledged warrior (at least that's what I think this show aims at transforming Eren into).

Nothing much to comment about this episode; I still lovin' it. But I have to question one thing: sending 250,000 people to reclaim the Wall Maria, which was basically taken over by the titans? Isn't that no more than the death sentence? What was the central government thinking? Did it really think that the place can be reclaimed again, or are they intentionally getting rid of people in order to solve food shortage on a short-term? Logic-wise, I just have to go with the latter. It's kinda obvious; the former is just straight-up bullshit.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 18, 2013, 07:49:17 PM
It`s a smart move, if they declared that all the refugees would be executed, or that they were simply being kicked outside the wall, there could be a riot.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 20, 2013, 07:38:24 PM
3:

Not the big payoff I've been waiting for, but we're getting there.

It's odd that so far I've been most impressed by the amount of thought put into the setting. Shingeki no Kyojin isn't the actionfest I expected.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on April 20, 2013, 07:48:59 PM
3

So now we meet the rest of the cast.  For characters in a shounen action series, they seem very normal with minimal quirks to really distinguish among them (except the potato girl).

Also, the show is really going full Kaiji with the expressions.  I swear this looks like a Madhouse production.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 20, 2013, 08:12:07 PM
Araki works before Guilty Crown were all at Madhouse.  I think it makes sense that he'd have that style, as he directed or worked on a lot of their projects.  And he actually did the storyboard for an episode of Kaiji.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Aelms on April 20, 2013, 08:24:52 PM
3:

Eren really seems to be dishonest even in his thoughts, or rather he is trying to convince himself about what his motivations are. I hope this becomes a major plot point in the future as I don't really buy the "I want to exterminate the giants" bull.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 20, 2013, 08:38:20 PM
3:

Eren really seems to be dishonest even in his thoughts, or rather he is trying to convince himself about what his motivations are. I hope this becomes a major plot point in the future as I don't really buy the "I want to exterminate the giants" bull.

Why not? I assumed that Eren's character arc would be him trying to let go of his hate, or something to that effect. After watching his mom get eaten, I don't find it unbelievable that Eren would want revenge. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 20, 2013, 09:26:01 PM
There's nothing much wrong with wanting to destroy the enemy that's attempting to slaughter your entire species.  But letting yourself become Capt. Ahab is when it's a problem.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on April 20, 2013, 09:31:09 PM
I agree with Aelms.  His hate for the giants comes off as fairly shallow.  If anything, he constantly switches between "I want to kill ALL of the giants!" and "Can I do this?!".  I don't know if this is bad characterization on the part of the show, or intentional.  It could be intentional, judging from the fact that he had a sudden panic attack while thinking about his mother's death.  Either he's really trying to keep the hate up artificially or he has a horrible memory.  He hasn't thought of that moment the entire time he was answering questions? 

1 - 3:
So, all I can think while watching this is: "Shounen trope A? Check.  Shounen trope B? Check.  Characters with faces that never match the situation? Check.  The other recruits cheering for the guy they were previously laughing at for obvious failure? Check.  Overcoming the odds despite faulty equipment, proving he's got the ability to do this? Check. 

This show is just full of tropes.  While it has potential, I'm afraid this is going to go past JoJo's level of fun and try to take itself way too seriously.  So far, it has none of the signs that show that this show is just having fun.   When a show that relies on all of the old tropes tries to take itself seriously, it becomes laughable in the bad way. 

Time skips and frustrations aside, all I could notice in the third episode was the characters having faces that never matched the situation.  Eren succeeds despite the odds?  The future characters just have a half bored, half surprised face.  His obvious love interest/best friend talks about him being relieved to be with her?  They just sort of look at her with the same exact face.  They go to an obviously amazing site before jump cutting to the future examination?  Our super focused, mean main character just sort of has a determined face to succeed.  Yeah, don't look at the moon light lighting the beautiful landscape and lake.  As for the first two episodes, I just feel like its taking all of it too seriously.  It sets up the drama well with serious character moments, then just has the girl punch the main character when he could obviously just be calmed down by any other method that doesn't include physical abuse.  Then, to top it all off, she forces the bread into his mouth.  It's called tearing off a piece of bread and putting it into his mouth.  You can at least try to be kind to him. 

Now, before you guys jump on me for bagging on the shounen tropes, I don't mind them.  They're decent to great if you use them sparingly or correctly.  That means using them in ways that let you take it seriously or just having so much fun that it let's you forget everything but what's on the screen.  This show seems to take the route of "If we combine human drama with the tropes, it's going to work perfectly!" when I think that it might go bad at some point.  It might not, but I'm remaining neutral after three episodes.  It has potential to rise above all of the problems and potential problems.  If it doesn't, then I think we're destined to see another average show on the cusp of the last season, the season of bad and mediocre shows.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Aelms on April 20, 2013, 09:42:03 PM
3:

Eren really seems to be dishonest even in his thoughts, or rather he is trying to convince himself about what his motivations are. I hope this becomes a major plot point in the future as I don't really buy the "I want to exterminate the giants" bull.

Why not? I assumed that Eren's character arc would be him trying to let go of his hate, or something to that effect. After watching his mom get eaten, I don't find it unbelievable that Eren would want revenge. 

That's what I thought at first too. I'm convinced after the end of ep. 3 that his relationship with Mikasa is a more important aspect of why he developed his worldview and chose to become a soldier. While we don't hear it from his monologue, he was obviously afraid of failing so blatantly in front of her. It's not just a romance thing either as its been suggested that Mikasa is the more capable individual in all aspect; I'm thinking that Eren feels some sort of need to prove himself to her. Having revenge as his only motivation is also make him a boring and predictable character.

With the critical acclaim that this manga seems to have received, I'm hoping that the story would focus on its characters and setting rather than throwing fight after fight at us.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 20, 2013, 10:22:55 PM
Eren does seem attached to Mikasa, but even before the titan attack he wanted to go outside the walls, in spite of her disagreement. I wouldn't say that she's his strongest motivation for join the army, but I agree that Eren wants to prove to her that he can look after himself.

As for revenge shackling characters, I think it's more dependent on how its handled. The Count from Gankutsuou comes to mind.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: MCAL on April 20, 2013, 11:07:19 PM
1-3:

A little late, but this is indeed epic!

But some is gonna have to convince me why some 12 year olds look twenty and why Mikasa looks like she's thirty.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 20, 2013, 11:22:35 PM
1-3:

A little late, but this is indeed epic!

But some is gonna have to convince me why some 12 year olds look twenty and why Mikasa looks like she's thirty.

Science!

Or something.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 21, 2013, 12:11:58 AM
1-3:

A little late, but this is indeed epic!

But some is gonna have to convince me why some 12 year olds look twenty and why Mikasa looks like she's thirty.

Mikasa is a bit much, she looks like she has lipstick on permanently.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on April 21, 2013, 04:56:15 AM
Someone tell me the appeal of this whole show so far.  I get that it becomes epic in the manga, but what's the appeal now?  The characters flip back and fourth between motivations, the tropes are used way too much, and it's taking itself way too seriously.  I'll say that it's not boring, but where's the critical acclaim coming from?  Also, I agree with you MCAL.  The characters also look way too old and Mikasa has permanent lipstick on in a boot camp for soldiers.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on April 21, 2013, 07:17:11 AM
Someone tell me the appeal of this whole show so far.  I get that it becomes epic in the manga, but what's the appeal now?
Simple. The setting feels fresh.  It's very rare for that to occur in the shounen action genre, or any genre in anime at this point.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on April 21, 2013, 12:03:27 PM
I'll just throw this in. It feels epic, it might not feel quite so much at the moment, but that first episode was such a massive hook. It is taking itself incredibly seriously, and to be honest I think is has to, it couldn't do it any other way. The OP represents this perfectly, it takes itself incredibly seriously, and it wants you to take it seriously to. The OP also blares "THIS IS EPIC". Yeh, I think it's a bit heavy handed maybe for me, but for most people they're just eating it up and giggling to themselves with enjoyment.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on April 21, 2013, 12:55:02 PM
There's a complete lack of pretentiousness in this work. There's no bullshit. It's straightforward and gets to the point. I really appreciate than in a world of anime where shows constantly try to be too clever for their own good.

3:

Another very good/solid episode. There was some unexpected humor too. The potato girl scene tore my insides.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 21, 2013, 03:50:04 PM
Quote
There's no bullshit. It's straightforward and gets to the point.
Quote
Potato Girl

Yeah, no.  I was doing fine with episodes one and two, but the third one sort of irritated me a couple of times.  Potato Girl was one.  Not because of what she did, but because of what she represents.  She's an obnoxious food hound Butt Monkey character.  Considering all the serious business going on, throwing in this overused type of gag character trope was completely jarring.

The rest of the episode was pretty good, with stark contrasts between the frontier people and the inner people and the very subtle attempt by that one inner guy at trying to get Eren kicked out by damaging his belt.  C'mon, it shouldn't be this hard to put two and two together after he watched Eren and Mikasa.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on April 21, 2013, 07:08:04 PM
3: Getting past the annoying Potato Girl, I will qualify my previous thoughts on Eren. Rather, that Eren is indeed idealist and grabs on to his own beliefs without logically thinking it through, but the show is addressing this quite well, so I can forgive that.

Regardless, I still want to know where the heck the titans came from. I hope they aren't just plot devices for giving the story purpose to begin with.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 21, 2013, 07:47:27 PM
3: Getting past the annoying Potato Girl, I will qualify my previous thoughts on Eren. Rather, that Eren is indeed idealist and grabs on to his own beliefs without logically thinking it through, but the show is addressing this quite well, so I can forgive that.

Regardless, I still want to know where the heck the titans came from. I hope they aren't just plot devices for giving the story purpose to begin with.

I've heard the Titans origins haven't actually been addressed in the main manga yet, so I believe it's safe to assume that a full answer won't be available.  Barring an anime-original ending.  Maybe there is some insinuations to come.

I'd go with Divine Punishment, though.  Though a sci-fi explanation probably makes some sense.  They're on an Earth-sized ant farm or something or other.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on April 21, 2013, 07:50:54 PM
3: Getting past the annoying Potato Girl, I will qualify my previous thoughts on Eren. Rather, that Eren is indeed idealist and grabs on to his own beliefs without logically thinking it through, but the show is addressing this quite well, so I can forgive that.

Regardless, I still want to know where the heck the titans came from. I hope they aren't just plot devices for giving the story purpose to begin with.

I've heard the Titans origins haven't actually been addressed in the main manga yet, so I believe it's safe to assume that a full answer won't be available.  Barring an anime-original ending.  Maybe there is some insinuations to come.

I'd go with Divine Punishment, though.  Though a sci-fi explanation probably makes some sense.  They're on an Earth-sized ant farm or something or other.

I honestly hope that there is no anime original ending. I'll probably be upset if there is, because I hate for something to end halfway through a manga's creation.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 21, 2013, 08:38:20 PM
Well, the first FMA series is in the running for one of the best of all time, so it can work.  If the director and writing staff are really on their game.

Still, I'd guess we'll hit some natural story arc end point (manga reads can probably guess what that would be) and it'll end there.  Somewhere in the Magi/Ao no Exorcist mold.  Given the monster boost the manga got in its first week (almost enough back catalog sales to pay for the anime production), I think it's safe to say they'll want to make sure it's not precluded from a sequel in some time.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Aelms on April 21, 2013, 08:41:02 PM
It would be really poetic if the giants just happened to be. I'm always up for a nihilistic, depressing twist if the story ever gets to it.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 21, 2013, 08:56:48 PM
Does it really matter where the Titans came from?  They simply represent a problem that humanity has to overcome.  In a way, they're not any different from the zombies from High School of the Dead.  Nobody knows where those came from, but that takes a complete back seat to "how to deal with them and survive".

That's what this is:  a survival show.  It is about humanity growing and overcoming a terrible foe.  I would also argue that it is about facing your fears rather than running from them, as the first episode establishes that humanity did the latter.  While they lived in peace, the "problem" didn't just go away.  In fact, the problem got "bigger" and worse, and now they can't run from it anymore.  In the meantime, they have gotten lax about how to solve the Titan problem for good, and their advancements in understanding and fighting them have been nonexistent.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on April 21, 2013, 08:58:38 PM
3:

Very good episode. Basically, Eren is a pussy who is going to be ass-whooped into a real man and that's what I want to see. The problem with male leads voiced by Kaji Yuuki is that they're pathetic. If things go well, Eren may be one who started off pathetic but is molded gradually to become a great character in the end. The only minor issue I have with the episode is the ending: Eren had a problem with his belt, and the next thing I see is him swinging from tree to tree like Tarzan? Isn't that a plot development warp or something?

And strangely, Potato Girl reminds me of Chihaya... only more simple.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 21, 2013, 09:00:19 PM
Does it really matter where the Titans came from?  They simply represent a problem that humanity has to overcome.  In a way, they're not any different from the zombies from High School of the Dead.  Nobody knows where those came from, but that takes a complete back seat to "how to deal with them and survive".

That's what this is:  a survival show.  It is about humanity growing and overcoming a terrible foe.  I would also argue that it is about facing your fears rather than running from them, as the first episode establishes that humanity did the latter.  While they lived in peace, the "problem" didn't just go away.  In fact, the problem got "bigger" and worse, and now they can't run from it anymore.  In the meantime, they have gotten lax about how to solve the Titan problem for good, and their advancements in understanding and fighting them have been nonexistent.

Titans as Japanese Govern Debt.

Go for 3 pages full of economic policy discussions!
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 22, 2013, 09:22:52 PM
Shit, I was actually going to make a political analogy, too, but I didn't want to get people's partisan hackles up.  But, **** it.

Titans = welfare queens consuming the wealth of others
Walls = protections of free market
Humans = economic producers being taxed to death to feed the socialist system

Deal with it, communists.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 22, 2013, 09:29:41 PM
Teach me master
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on April 23, 2013, 12:28:54 AM
Yeah, no.  I was doing fine with episodes one and two, but the third one sort of irritated me a couple of times.  Potato Girl was one.  Not because of what she did, but because of what she represents.  She's an obnoxious food hound Butt Monkey character.  Considering all the serious business going on, throwing in this overused type of gag character trope was completely jarring.

I'll give you this, she's probably the most out of place character so far in the story given what we have seen so far. However, I imagine that Titan isn't solely going to be a series with screaming/rage/angst/gar and will have its share of other moments too. Times of camaraderie, triumph, etc.

I don't know how I feel about her generally, but that one scene to me was probably the funniest thing I have seen in a while. It wasn't even so much because of her, though she instigated it, but because of the sergeant's reactions to it. The combination of his intensity and confusion at the same time was quite amusing to me.

But in any case, I think this one character who so far has played a pretty minor role hardly debunks what I was trying to say about this series. Compared to most stuff out there, it's definitely way more straightforward entertainment. There really aren't special qualifiers to being able to get involved in this series like say a Bakemonogatari or Mawararu Penguindrum (And I'm being nice here by naming series that I thought genuinely were very good and worked out). A case of the opposite, it being outright terrible, would be Aku no Hana. Ofc, all those terrible LN stories are also very gimmicky and entirely too self-aware for their own good.

tl;dr Titan isn't trying to be overly clever, and its straightforward well produced entertainment without feeling too banal.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on April 23, 2013, 02:07:38 AM
1-3:

Yeah, this show isn't leaving me awestruck by any means, but it's wholly satisfying as a piece of entertainment.

At times the utter seriousness of the setting seems a little hamfisted though, especially with Eren's characterization and his gar "I'm going to kill all the giants!" attitude. It makes sense why he would act like that (he's a kid who's seen some real scary shit after all) but the writing and presentation could do better to make him less irritating.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 23, 2013, 02:39:19 AM
Hehe, any series with "existential dread" will always have parallels to the political topics of the day.  It's just the nature of real-world "dread".  The forces that are truly powerful and it's questionable if you can, as a single person, do anything against them.  Add in a classic understanding of the "enemy at the gate" and you can produce a whole lot of parallels.

Just some potential parallels that could be worked (more from a Japanese point of view, however):

- Government Debt
- Aging population
- Currency Collapse
- North Korea
- Economic Reorganization
- Creeping Foreign Cultural Invasion
- China
- USA

Most would read their own main fears that exist in a similar system, when analyzing it.  But either way, it's a "what can I do?" archetype story.  Those do tend to work quite well, if the dread is very "real" in the series.  It doesn't work if you're being attacked by Tribbles.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 23, 2013, 02:57:33 AM
Quote from: Reckoner
But in any case, I think this one character who so far has played a pretty minor role hardly debunks what I was trying to say about this series.

I don't think it does either.  I just whiplashed hard with her.  It was a weak point, for me, in what has already been a splendid show.

Quote from: SQA
The forces that are truly powerful and it's questionable if you can, as a single person, do anything against them.  Add in a classic understanding of the "enemy at the gate" and you can produce a whole lot of parallels.

Right, and this is why I don't think the origin of the Titans is relevant nor necessary.  The Titans are and represent whatever you want.  Their existence just simply has to be accepted, and the story will revolve around what those opposing the Titans will do, not what the Titans are. 

Speaking of story parallels, there's several places where I've seen classic horror stories becoming popular based on the economic situation of a nation.  Vampire stories tend to be popular during periods of economic downturn, which allows the public to view the vampire as a privileged wealthy person still preying upon the populace; whereas things like Frankenstein get popular during points where prosperity is beginning, as the monster allows people to see not only innovation but progressive concepts in a misunderstood creature.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 23, 2013, 08:10:38 AM
9/11 produced the massive boom in the House-Horror genre and the revitalization of the entire genre as a market force. 

And the classic "Nazis as stand-ins for Commies" for much of the post-WW2 era. 

You can learn quite a lot about a culture about the way it personafies its fears.   I've seen some really expectional work over the years talking about Godzilla and Japan and its symbology.. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 23, 2013, 03:06:41 PM
Well, wasn't Godzilla supposed to be a monster that was borne of our own recklessness with nuclear or toxic waste or just general ocean polluting and "nature" was getting its "revenge"?  I remember reading stuff about that a while ago.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 24, 2013, 03:39:57 AM
Well, wasn't Godzilla supposed to be a monster that was borne of our own recklessness with nuclear or toxic waste or just general ocean polluting and "nature" was getting its "revenge"?  I remember reading stuff about that a while ago.

The original was the result after nuclear tests.  Which was a way around dealing with the fact that we'd bombed Japan with 2 nukes.  He, in the early days, represented the scourge of Nukes.  Yet, over time, he's morphed into a super-powerful anti-hero.  (Obviously, he's been around for 50 years, so things change)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on April 27, 2013, 09:03:53 PM
4

What?  The training arc is over already?  Sweet, now we can get back the the regularly scheduled Titan hunting.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Aelms on April 27, 2013, 09:14:40 PM
4:

Here I was enjoying the little bits of character development and then HOLY S*** WHERE THE HELL DID HE COME FROM.

Looks like we'll finally get what the trailer promised.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: MCAL on April 27, 2013, 09:54:12 PM
4:
Wow! The titans really are plot devices! I mean they come and go out of nowhere. And someone still has to convince me why everyone looks double their age. And why it is such a good idea to send the elite soldiers away from the majority of the army.

And people called Valvrave nonsensical...
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 27, 2013, 10:43:45 PM
4:

It could be just me, but I feel like Shingeki no Kyoujin has been running out of steam ever since episode 1. Certainly I'm impressed with how thorough and clever it's been with it's setting and characters, but I think the initial titan attack was by far the most electrifying moment of the series so far. Everything since has been fairly tame or run-of-the-mill, which is not what I was hoping for since seeing the epic trailer. Hopefully the return of the red titan will shake things up.

Speaking of which, I'm very curious as to how exactly he appeared in front of the wall. Seems like the lightning has something to do with it; though if so, I wonder whether he could simply zap down on the human side or something.   
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Aelms on April 27, 2013, 11:48:24 PM
Maybe we're just getting used to the giants' presence along with the characters. Just like how Eren immediately came to terms with its appearance, we feel less threatened by them and can imagine the humans actually winning. I'd imagine this being comparable to how we feel about the supernatural beings in Shiki.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on April 28, 2013, 07:38:23 AM
4:

This I think is something only I would have done, but when Eren was talking about mankind's comeback, I knew something was gonna happen, and when he finished the speech and the Titan just teleported in right behind him, I laughed so hard. I don't know why, but I laughed and scared the shit out of my friend who was in the room at the time.

Anyway, I hope they do the next episode right.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on April 29, 2013, 07:52:23 PM
4:

"Mankind has regained its dignity. Our counterattack begins now." ← FAMOUS LAST WORDS. OH EREN~

I think the story's moving way too fast. Mind you that this is a 2-cour series, so I don't see how training stretches no more than 2 episodes. Even if the story plans to explore a lot more stuff than just training, I believe that his training is fundamental and should form a significant component in the main storyline. I just can't buy how Eren can simply become a soldier; as much as the story tries to illustrate the shit he's been through to get where he is now, from an audience's point of view, the fast-forward effect is basically a shot in the series' own foot.

On another note, nothing directly concerning the story but I realize from personal experience how inefficienct military organizations can be. The show clearly illustrates how people who have high aptitude in certain fields often have vocations different from what they should be granted. In other words, aptitude/vocation mismatch. From a logical standpoint, Armin should be in the academic field but he's in the recon group, for example. If the military has full authoritative power, it would make itself a lot more efficient if it decides the vocation each candidate gets and not let the candidates decide for themselves. In fact, in desperate times, it would make a lot more sense to do so.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on April 29, 2013, 07:59:15 PM
I believe we're still in a set of flashbacks through ep 5?  I.e. chapter 1 of the Manga shouldn't be until like ep 6.  At least, that's what I've seen posted a few places.  It would explain the extreme pacing.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Thot on May 04, 2013, 11:57:40 AM
From what I recall of the manga, that training part we've seen here the past two episodes really wasn't all that long there. And I think I sort of get now why they put it earlier than in the manga.
You'll see.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 04, 2013, 05:29:23 PM
5:

Holy %^*&. Did that actually just happen?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: MCAL on May 04, 2013, 05:57:24 PM
5:
WHAT THE FLYING F*CK?! I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT JUST HAPPENED!
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on May 04, 2013, 06:27:32 PM
5:

...

WTF
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 04, 2013, 07:12:16 PM
5:

Training don't mean shit.

I like that the show is doing this. With the premise it has, it's got a notable issue it needs to make sure it doesn't fall to, namely that the characters need to get stronger and start winning at some point, but the Titans have to never lose their threat and huge dominance, otherwise it'll feel boring. As such, I can't imagine the amount of large scale battles where the protagonists win will ever be large, not unless they do it really well.

In any case, they did a good job of really reaffirming how ****ing scary and overpowered the Titans are. If the Titans came about in this day and age, I wonder how easily we would be able to deal with them? It would all depend on the number and their distribution I suppose.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on May 04, 2013, 07:27:07 PM
Umm... Titans would be easy to deal with.  Don't let the dread get to you on that point.  Incendiary devices.  Armor piercing rounds.  Depleted Uranium rounds.  Hell, 2 trucks with a cable between them going 40 mph.  Steel cabling alone would do most of the trick.   Jonathan Swift had a better appreciation for what it would take a few hundred years ago. 

Even if the outer skin was made of synthetic spider silk and graphene sheets, quite a lot of basic physics would do all of the trick.   You hunt in larger packs of humans, separate the titans, rope their legs down with some sort of ground/land mount.  Rope the arms down and slaughter them.  2 legged walking being very easy to get off balance.

Poisons.  Hit the eyes.  Cannon bolos.  Pretty much anything but close-quarters Spiderman combat. 

It's a sci-fi series with GrimDark.  Just have to accept that.  If you want a better idea how things would progress, I'd recommend something like the original Macross or Gunbuster.  Yes, even with the singing (which actually makes more logical sense than most sci-fi series can come up with.  Though most series have better romance plots...yeah)  Total war and a defensive position are amazingly effective at progressing weapons technology.  They had 100 years behind the Walls, yet they simply didn't spend any time coming up with ways of killing the Titans from range.  Are their eyes made of magical defensive shields?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Aelms on May 04, 2013, 08:11:51 PM
5:

This show is unbelievably cruel to its characters. The worst part about it reminds me of how Zero Caster had put it; the hopes we had for Eren's success which was constantly reiterated made it all the worse.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 04, 2013, 08:20:28 PM
I'm not sure it's so simple SQA. That regeneration is a problem, their weak point can really only be hit from the air, and it seems like some of them can jump ridiculously high. I'm not sure we've seen everything the titans can do already, and we haven't yet seen a titan fail in a contest of strength. Plus there's the super titan and the armored titan, both of which are incredibly strong and seem to be nigh invulnerable. While it's true that given enough ammunition, all the little titans could be taken out by one guy in a helicopter, I think they could still do terrible damage to the cities before they're wiped out.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on May 04, 2013, 09:23:21 PM
5

Well, I honestly did not see that coming.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: MCAL on May 04, 2013, 09:48:15 PM
5:
Well now that I got the shock out of my system, the episode... Yes, yes. Pretty damn good. Considering this is technically shounen, the odds that Eren will stay dead are slim to none.

But really this show is so over the top, it borders on ridiculous. As I read one blog on this episode, I can't help but agree. This show is a a lot like Valvrave. I mean we basically have ridiculous characters in a ridiculous and almost nonsensical (for the time being of course) plot acting near on ridiculous. Ridiculous, I know. I mean, I'm not the only one seeing plot holes the size of a jumbo jet, right? So who's with me? Titan >= Valvrave?

EDIT: And of course that in no way reflects badly on Titan. Both shows are equally glorious.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on May 04, 2013, 10:07:30 PM
I'm not sure it's so simple SQA. That regeneration is a problem, their weak point can really only be hit from the air, and it seems like some of them can jump ridiculously high. I'm not sure we've seen everything the titans can do already, and we haven't yet seen a titan fail in a contest of strength. Plus there's the super titan and the armored titan, both of which are incredibly strong and seem to be nigh invulnerable. While it's true that given enough ammunition, all the little titans could be taken out by one guy in a helicopter, I think they could still do terrible damage to the cities before they're wiped out.

Actually, I should probably say this is GrimDark Fantasy.   The skin of the Titans is apparently stronger than bonds in the nucleus of an atom.  They can be bipedal at that height, with apparently blood (of some form) running through them, which would need a pressure level so insanely high to be functional at that size that they'd explode from the inside out.  Apparently the Super Titans can teleport.  And be called to plot necessary (hehe).  The Titans can ignore the basic physics of balance, especially against explosives.

In short, if the Titans were anything actually realistic, the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Chinese would not have had much of a problem cleaning up the mess.    Mostly as swords to the muscles would still work.  Just cutting the Achilles' Heel would do most of the trick.  Or knee-capping them.  Like I said, basic physics would still work fine, even if their "hide" was still supremely tough.  We're working more on the "magic" end of things. 

Or this is Scrapped Princess-style.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Thot on May 05, 2013, 05:06:20 AM
5:

Oh. I had forgotten that part came this early into the story. Nicely executed and I see they're letting up on the censorship now, although it's still a bit toned down compared to the manga.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on May 05, 2013, 08:59:03 PM
5:

I have to wonder if Urobuchi Gen is secretly working on this show under an alias... only he can be this cruel to his characters.

It's a shocker what has happened:

Is Eren really dead? It's a shocker because he's the protagonist of the show, yet he's gone by episode 5? So how's the protagonist now: Mikasa? Isn't she his supporter? Or is Eren going to be miraculously alive?

Then again, the show never really had a hint of hope for the human race: nothing is really known about the titans except for their weak spots, and everything else has been based on known observations. If they are evolving to be able to be that agile, then these kids are obviously the first to know. With that being said, the human race is ****ed.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AH on May 05, 2013, 09:16:17 PM
5:

I'm not sure that I like this latest event, in terms of the overall implications, but I guess it works as a surprise at this early point in the story. That said, I doubt they will really take everything in a vastly different direction once the dust settles. I'm definitely watching the next episode or two in order to see how they resolve the issue at hand.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 06, 2013, 01:26:15 AM
5:

These cliffhangers are god damned evil.

Also, Eren has just become Guts.  I fully expect Mikasa to be raped by Femto any time now.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on May 06, 2013, 12:48:23 PM
5:

These cliffhangers are god damned evil.

Also, Eren has just become Guts.  I fully expect Mikasa to be raped by Femto any time now.

Would that rise or lower the dread levels in the series? :)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 06, 2013, 04:21:14 PM
Eren only lost an arm and a leg, and then got eaten. It's only a flesh wound, he'll walk it off.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 06, 2013, 04:42:37 PM
Laughably, I've seen shounen characters walk off with one less arm and one less leg without too many issues.  I don't know how it will counter the whole "completely eaten" thing, but this show could probably pull off a character with missing limbs.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on May 06, 2013, 06:12:14 PM
5:

Still a bit of a hammy series. This time what particularly irked me was how the ruler of the government is a whiny fat guy who insists that the royal gaurd should stay to protect him instead of helping with the titan problem, even though he's not facing any immediate threat. Ugh...

Aside from that this is the best episode so far. The setting was already pretty depressing to begin with, but now they've really driven home the point of just awful their situation is.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on May 06, 2013, 06:48:29 PM
5:

Still a bit of a hammy series. This time what particularly irked me was how the ruler of the government is a whiny fat guy who insists that the royal gaurd should stay to protect him instead of helping with the titan problem, even though he's not facing any immediate threat. Ugh...

Aside from that this is the best episode so far. The setting was already pretty depressing to begin with, but now they've really driven home the point of just awful their situation is.

The fat, over-protected ruler is something of a Japanese-centric trope.  You have to remember that, for most of Japan's history, the Emperor was a secondary figure in the power structure.  So the "spoiled, worthless and pathetic "King"" thinking is deep in their culture.  There's a reason Oda Nobunaga is still so highly regarded in Japan.  And it leads to an interesting study of Japan, seeing as the "God-King" was pretty much without any clothes for hundreds of years.  It's amazing the place figureheads have in cultures.

So, yeah, that trope isn't very surprising.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 07, 2013, 04:18:35 AM
I just realized something...  Gonna spoiler this, too, in case I'm right (I was with my Date-A-Live theory, so here's hoping I go 2 for 2).

They spent a rather inordinate amount of time explaining a certain thing in this episode.  I thought it was kind of out of place, except that they were explaining it while the attack was going on, so it sort of fit.  But, really, we know the Titans are tough to kill, and with all their apparent quickness (something we didn't know and wasn't explained before), they just become that much more effective.  Even then, there was one thing they focused on in this episode to tell us about:  the regenerative properties of the Titans.  Why did they do that?  I suppose it could be that it was to tell us WHY they attack that clump on the back of the Titan's neck, but there had to be other reasons.

Then it hit me, something I had forgotten about until just now:  the injection from Eren's father.  What was in that syringe?  What was it he injected into Eren?  Why did he think it would help mankind?  What else is in that basement laboratory?  I presume, and have since the beginning, that Eren's dad was studying a method to end the Titan threat, and that was only enhanced by the whole "locked up basement" thing in the first episode (which his dad said he would only show Eren now that Eren has decided to join the Survey Corps and be out amongst the Titans).  We know, thanks to the exposition in the first episode, about how Eren's father was a doctor that helped cure a disease.  It would not be out of the realm of possibility that Eren's father was working on some kind of weapon to use against the Titans, but there's more to it than that.  I think he was searching for a way to render the Titans significantly less difficult for the humans to take on.  Basically, a power up for the humans to fight and / or a way to nullify the superiority of the Titans.

So what did he inject into Eren?  At this point, I am about 99% sure it was some kind of enhancement, based on the Titan's regeneration ability, to give Eren super-healing.  Thus far, we haven't seen Eren be faster, stronger, smarter, or anything since episode one.  But... we also haven't seen him get hurt a lot either.  Presumably the injection happened AFTER the fall of Wall Maria, and since then he's been in training, and aside from falling on his face a couple of times, hasn't been significantly injured.  Until this episode.

In this episode, not only did he lose an arm, but he lost a leg.  They didn't bother to show anybody else get injured (just outright dead), including Armin, who survives the Titan attack unscathed.  Eren, however, gets slightly handicapped.

Why?  In one episode, they mention super Titan regeneration and manage to maim the main character.  Answer:  to set up the next episode's "comeback".  The boy with more determination than anybody else, but also the one who displays "no special talents in any area", in other words, a typical shounen lead, is about to get his "thing".  His Spirit Gun, his Zanpakuto, his Special Technique, whatever... Eren is going to become Wolverine.

Just my theory.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 07, 2013, 12:24:16 PM
@TIF

You know what, that might be dead on, and it wouldn't upset me at all. Awesome.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 07, 2013, 01:38:27 PM
All this talk makes me really want to watch it as it seems to be my kind of show, but I think I'll have to wait and marathon it (plus considering the manga is not over it might be one of those shows with a lousy ending). Though  my interest is highly piqued.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 10, 2013, 03:39:20 PM
I had a bit too much free time, so... well...

(http://i1316.photobucket.com/albums/t618/InfiniteFumoffu/catearsmoetitan_zps2e72bd1d.jpg)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on May 10, 2013, 05:36:00 PM
I had a bit too much free time, so... well...

(http://i1316.photobucket.com/albums/t618/InfiniteFumoffu/catearsmoetitan_zps2e72bd1d.jpg)

That's exploitable.

(http://i.imgur.com/1Ht0Jus.jpg)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on May 10, 2013, 06:30:47 PM
I had a bit too much free time, so... well...

(http://i1316.photobucket.com/albums/t618/InfiniteFumoffu/catearsmoetitan_zps2e72bd1d.jpg)

That's exploitable.

(http://i.imgur.com/1Ht0Jus.jpg)

I think you're both doing it wrong.
(http://i.imgur.com/dd2Gn9a.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/Xee1xpV.png)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 11, 2013, 08:03:45 AM
I can't take credit for this alteration, but it was done better than I could have done it:
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/rexnaara/Moe-Titan_zps1eb1d126.png)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: The Big Guy on May 11, 2013, 10:15:48 AM
Quote
I just realized something...  Gonna spoiler this, too, in case I'm right (I was with my Date-A-Live theory, so here's hoping I go 2 for 2).

SWING AND A MISS.

Nope, you were halfway there, but you chose the wrong marvel hero.

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 11, 2013, 05:44:07 PM
6:

OH COME ON WHAT HAPPENED TO EREN I'M DYING HERE, GODDAMNIT

Other than that, we essentially got more of the same from the 3 main characters. Armin crying about how useless he's being. Eren functioning at a high level from a young age. Mikasa being ridiculously competent (just have all the other squads retreat so they can stop embarrassing themselves), though it is a bit jarring to find out that she wasn't always a prodigy at fighting. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 11, 2013, 06:27:24 PM
6:

What did we learn today, kids?  We learned that adrenaline and green lightning allows you to break floor boards and knife handles with your bare hands and feet!  I gotta give this show points.  For how many tropes it uses, it knows how to get even more ridiculous.  I think the green lightning paved the way for her to mature into a 20 year old woman at the age of 15 and gain the ability to  have permanent make-up that never runs.

Snark aside, good episode in relation to the way too competent Mikasa.  At this point, they might as well just send her in alone with an infinite supply of blades to put into those grapple hook toasters of hers.  She was at least semi-human before the whole training thing.   
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: MCAL on May 11, 2013, 06:35:26 PM
6:
And the wait for whatever Deus ex Machina saves Eren continues... Great episode btw!
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on May 11, 2013, 06:49:26 PM
6

Dude, that Eren kid had some anger problems long before everything went to hell.   The titan chomping on his mom just gave his rage a bonus multiplier.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on May 11, 2013, 07:23:01 PM
6: Why can the characters be so... hard to believe? I mean, Eren was more of a child prodigy then Mikasa.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: MCAL on May 11, 2013, 08:24:53 PM
6: Why can the characters be so... hard to believe? I mean, Eren was more of a child prodigy then Mikasa.

I think it's simple. Shingeki is an epic dark-fantasy story. If Valvrave is the anime that is stupid, knows it and goes along with it, then Shingeki is the anime that is epic, knows it and goes with it. And they are connected to people with whom "restraint" seems not to be a word in their dictionary. With Valvrave we have Okouchi Ichiro and with Shingeki we have Araki Tetsurou. The characters are the plot drivers, most likely never breaking free of being one or two-dimensional.

Mind you, that isn't exactly damming criticism. Both shows are highly entertaining to watch. But there both series where you'll have to make concessions (To the absurdity of it all).
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 11, 2013, 10:17:36 PM
6: Why can the characters be so... hard to believe? I mean, Eren was more of a child prodigy then Mikasa.

You know, this strikes me as odd, especially considering that very human characters like Hannes and Eren's mom are there, plus the realistic behavior of the masses, soldiers, and even the slave traders from this episode. The mangaka clearly didn't have problems with making believable characters, so why didn't he do it for his three protagonists?   
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on May 11, 2013, 11:35:59 PM
I think if people are expecting this show to be anything other than what we saw in the first 6 episodes they're probably going to end up disappointed in that regard.  This is the kind of show where it asks you to go along with it in all of it's bombast and I don't know I just sort of appreciate those for what they are, especially when they're as comfortable with themselves as Titan seems to be.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Zeitgeist on May 12, 2013, 03:55:03 AM
5: When did Mikasa get hot? Cannons seemed to be doin work, why'd they cut to the Titans inside the wall? Oh, ridiculous regenerative capabilities. Ga-rei Zero???

6: lol the guy in that "look we're a couple" couple died. lol that dainty run and that random character just got booted off screen. Mikasa out of place back story though I suppose now is as good a time as any...oh she's oriental...oriental-->Asain--->kung-fu--->badass. Makes sense. Chibi Eren I like. Oh, badassery is merely a state of mind. Annnd now i miss Eren.

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Aelms on May 12, 2013, 04:42:02 AM
I think if people are expecting this show to be anything other than what we saw in the first 6 episodes they're probably going to end up disappointed in that regard.  This is the kind of show where it asks you to go along with it in all of it's bombast and I don't know I just sort of appreciate those for what they are, especially when they're as comfortable with themselves as Titan seems to be.

This links to a more general discussion of how shows are 'supposed' to be enjoyed. Personally, I think each show deserves to be evaluated on its own merit before being compared to how it is relative to what other shows have accomplished and presented. For Titans, I think some viewers are alienated by the sheer brutality that the characters are forced to go through and be part of, as shown in the latest ep about Eren and Mikasa's past. The Titans universe is uncomfortably violent even in conflicts that are expected to be forgettable.

6:

Mikasa killing multiple Titans made me pause to think. Were the Titans that Eren and Armin faced abnormally strong or is Mikasa that much of a badass to be able to kill multiples of them?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on May 12, 2013, 07:31:22 AM
Were the Titans that Eren and Armin faced abnormally strong or is Mikasa that much of a badass to be able to kill multiples of them?

I'm guessing this is because Eren was dealing with dozens of Titans whereas Mikasa handled the one or two Titans that penetrated that far into the city. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on May 12, 2013, 10:49:38 AM
Were the Titans that Eren and Armin faced abnormally strong or is Mikasa that much of a badass to be able to kill multiples of them?

I'm guessing this is because Eren was dealing with dozens of Titans whereas Mikasa handled the one or two Titans that penetrated that far into the city. 

Pretty much this. Mikasa is better to begin with, she did graduate top of her class. Eren also blindly charged into tons of titans. Remember Eren was handling himself pretty well when he was trying to find the big humongous one.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Thot on May 12, 2013, 12:53:17 PM
6: Why can the characters be so... hard to believe? I mean, Eren was more of a child prodigy then Mikasa.

You know, this strikes me as odd, especially considering that very human characters like Hannes and Eren's mom are there, plus the realistic behavior of the masses, soldiers, and even the slave traders from this episode. The mangaka clearly didn't have problems with making believable characters, so why didn't he do it for his three protagonists?
Because otherwise there would be no protagonists - they would simply be dead. Unless the writer went for copious asspulls as for why they of all people somehow survived each time.
But leaving that aside, I don't think they're really all that one-dimensional or unbelievable, anyway.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on May 12, 2013, 11:32:47 PM
6:

I understand that this show is purposefully playing around with grimdarkness and epicness, but the extent of how violent and badass it tries to be just makes it a bit difficult to take seriously. Two small children brutally stabbing a group of kidnappers, one of whom crushes the knife handle because how intensely serious she is? Yeah, this show is reaching new heights of hammy.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on May 13, 2013, 03:18:29 AM
6:

Aww shit. Imagine what's going to happen to Mikasa when she finds out that Eren has become... well, titan shit.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Aeshma on May 14, 2013, 12:46:39 PM
6:

How come completely over the top shit in Valvrave has me in stitches while in SnK makes me groan?

Ah yes, Snk takes itself seriously.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Superhello2020 on May 14, 2013, 04:57:27 PM
5&6:
If the main character is dead.  It will remind me of
game of thrones
I think that the positioning of the female character into the central position of filmic agency (not just the most powerful character in a narrative sense, but in a formal sense) a couple episodes into a series is genuinely subversive within the context of modern anime. Her centrality to the series could therefore rise in contrast to the formal restaints of the action model of anime instead of in a fetishistic way, like we usually see anime frame female strength or formal centrality. However, because of the subversive nature of this act, I doubt it's going to happen.. one can hope doe ;(
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 14, 2013, 06:38:50 PM
Ok caught up because my curiosity got the better of me. The show has insane production values, awesome action, music and really really good animation for a tv series.

However that's really all it has going for it, the characters and story are pretty weak so far. I feel like making it too over the top has hurt what could make it strong (looking at the inner lives of humans being closed off from the rest of the world). That being said, even if it seems pretty shallow it's definitely entertaining to watch. I'll just consider this a dark shounen (as that's probably what it'll end up being) and at least unlike SAO, they got survival vibe right.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: sakura on May 18, 2013, 04:14:04 PM
7.
Warning: watch ep.7 before reading this.

So Eren has become...
a titan?
Interesting...
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 18, 2013, 04:46:04 PM
7: Is it wrong that I started laughing the instant everything went crazy?  I'm supposed to be taking this seriously, right?  I want to take it seriously, but with all of this happening, I can't help but laugh.  It's so absurd and out there, I can't help but get humor out of this. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 18, 2013, 05:31:19 PM
7:

Huh. A titan killing titan eh? This show just keeps expanding.

Now I'm starting to like Mikasa. She's not invincible, physically or emotionally. Now she can grow. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on May 18, 2013, 08:03:55 PM
7

How interesting.  Araki's over the top directing suits this show incredibly well.  The traitor Titan scene wouldn't have had the same impact without all the visual build up and rather brutal imagery.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Yggberry on May 19, 2013, 11:05:27 AM
I read this manga before. It sucks. It gets stupider and stupider as the plot moves on. It is just another shounen. That's all I have to say.

The titan is Eren.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: sakura on May 19, 2013, 12:39:22 PM
The titan is Eren.

That was obvious, as I said in my previous post (reason why I said "warning!").

- Mikasa's look and the way she said "i've seen this before", refering to how Eren killed the guys who kidnapped her when she was a child
- the messy hair, the angry eyes, the fact that he "knows all the weak points and techniques to kill the other titans"
- the athletic body with long legs compared to the other titans
- the fact that next episode is called "I can hear his heart beats" and that in the ending spoilers/preview, they said they will make a great discovery
- etc, etc...
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 19, 2013, 12:45:38 PM
To be honest, I asked myself whether the titan might be Eren, but as someone who never read the manga, I can't make myself believe that. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but from the perspective of someone who has only seen the anime, that sounds a bit ridiculous. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Zeitgeist on May 19, 2013, 01:11:34 PM
They did imply it was Eren pretty hard...I mean, this show only does "beat the audiece over the head with what they should feel". The whole heart beat thing, when they kept cutting to the red fleshy ball. They kept the Titan's severed finger on screen for a couple of seconds so you could see its strange tissue composition. They were building up to something and then Mikasa felt Eren's "presence"(she suddenly began thinking of him). Adding that to the whole mysterious injections Eren was given by his father, that Titan seems to be linked to Eren. The only question is whether it is literally him or just related to him.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 19, 2013, 01:33:15 PM
7: So now Eren has...become the incredible hulk?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: MCAL on May 19, 2013, 01:43:59 PM
7:
So Eren has been saved by our good old friend deus ex machina?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 19, 2013, 02:10:35 PM
Well it is a shounen, so yeah kinda the norm these days. (Oh wait we have that flashback with the syringe so obviously that is adequate enough foreshadowing that he will have some magical bullcrap super power that can save him from death...no shut up writer).

So we got our male main lead who has the power to overcome sure death, and our female lead who is overpowered and mostly perfect who will kill herself without the main hero. This is SAO isn't it?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on May 19, 2013, 02:17:53 PM
Anything that's about to happen has been foreshadowed in some way. No deus ex machina, or ass pull.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 19, 2013, 02:38:36 PM
Shit Eren has gained a ton of weight since I last saw him. I thought he was all about getting fitter and stronger as well. He must have eaten his way out of Hagrid and got fat along the way.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Yggberry on May 19, 2013, 03:31:17 PM
They did imply it was Eren pretty hard...I mean, this show only does "beat the audiece over the head with what they should feel". The whole heart beat thing, when they kept cutting to the red fleshy ball. They kept the Titan's severed finger on screen for a couple of seconds so you could see its strange tissue composition. They were building up to something and then Mikasa felt Eren's "presence"(she suddenly began thinking of him). Adding that to the whole mysterious injections Eren was given by his father, that Titan seems to be linked to Eren. The only question is whether it is literally him or just related to him.

teehee so cute. That wasn't a severed finger you are seeing. That's actually a pomegranate. Believe me, they have made this anime a LOT less gory than the manga.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Yggberry on May 19, 2013, 03:33:03 PM
To be honest, I asked myself whether the titan might be Eren, but as someone who never read the manga, I can't make myself believe that. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but from the perspective of someone who has only seen the anime, that sounds a bit ridiculous.

Wait till you find out about those two titans that broke the walls. One word. Lame.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 19, 2013, 05:20:24 PM
Knowing this show, it will probably build it up with some really big hints, a angelic choir, some epic music, and all of the characters acting completely shocked at what revelations are unveiled.  Once you add in the possibility of green lightning around Mikasa, you've got this show so far.  Oh, and every human  will probably dejected or depressed.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Clicking on May 20, 2013, 02:01:46 AM
As much as I can't bring myself to like Araki Tetsurou and his flair for the excessive since a good fifty percent of the time something goes horribly, horribly wrong, I will say that he's great when it comes to giving a series a shit ton of momentum. While I do get a good laugh when say, a character just casually decides to blow his face off, the action never lingers on a specific scene and transitions come fast enough to make the show much easier to swallow. I've got plenty of complaints, but when the gears start to turn it's hard to get caught up on it.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 20, 2013, 08:05:28 PM
Does anyone find it funny that their only method of killing titans really is to use short ranged, fragile weapons? Oh and using completely ineffective cannons. Seems like constructing a bunch of big crossbows would be far more efficient (immobolize the titan then cut their neck you know?). Then again I guess since they didn't think of constructing a giant robot they were already screwed anyway.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on May 20, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
Does anyone find it funny that their only method of killing titans really is to use short ranged, fragile weapons? Oh and using completely ineffective cannons. Seems like constructing a bunch of big crossbows would be far more efficient (immobolize the titan then cut their neck you know?). Then again I guess since they didn't think of constructing a giant robot they were already screwed anyway.

It's a shounen series.  It's just one of those things you have to accept.  It's GrimDark fantasy that's over the top.  It's not pretending to be much of anything else, so don't try to apply too much logic.  (For the critical acclaim this series has, the world isn't that cohesive.)  If you can suspend the disbelief to accept what they're doing, it'll work.  If you can't, it won't.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 20, 2013, 11:41:27 PM
Quote
It's a shounen series.  It's just one of those things you have to accept.  It's GrimDark fantasy that's over the top.  It's not pretending to be much of anything else, so don't try to apply too much logic.  (For the critical acclaim this series has, the world isn't that cohesive.)  If you can suspend the disbelief to accept what they're doing, it'll work.  If you can't, it won't.

Well yes this is very true (I think the electric brain thing speaks miles about the shows direction). It's not actually a complaint I just find it funny that they are fighting the Titans in a way that makes them guaranteed to lose (even high school of the dead used guns when they could hah).
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on May 21, 2013, 05:46:08 AM
7:

This sounds crazy, but:

I can only guess that the Titan that killed the other Titans is Eren himself. I have no idea what happened along the way, but I have no other theory anyway. Maybe it's his undying will that somewhat rendered him a Titan or something... okay, you know what, I won't even explaining right now.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on May 21, 2013, 10:45:07 AM
Knowing this show, it will probably build it up with some really big hints, a angelic choir, some epic music, and all of the characters acting completely shocked at what revelations are unveiled.  Once you add in the possibility of green lightning around Mikasa, you've got this show so far.  Oh, and every human  will probably dejected or depressed.

Yep....that's the way things oughta be.  ;D

As someone who doesn't automatically fault shows for being over the top episode 7 was one of the highlights of the week to me.  Thrilling from start to finish and makes me want to watch the next episode to see what happens next, just like another show I've been following.  Highlight of the week was definitely boxer/traitor Titan counter-punching another Titans head off and into a bell tower.  That's what I call a critical hit animation.  Mikasa was also pretty great too and for one of the first times in recent memory seemed to show signs of weakness and that she wasn't thinking clearly.  For all her sheer raw strength and talent she too can get caught up in the moment and despair and was pretty close to giving up.  It almost looks like her instinctive will to survive serves as a source of power for her (represented as the green lightning), I know a lot of people here probably won't like this because it's not something that operates 100% on pure real world logic (I've noticed NHRV really frowns on shows that are like this) but I've always been a fan of sheer willpower, courage and guts guiding characters through to either narrow victory (TTGL, Gaogaigar come to mind) or to see the next day.  It's exhilarating stuff.....you know....fun... :-\
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 21, 2013, 03:56:41 PM
7:

Oh... that's what that injection did.  Did not see that one coming.

Quote
deus ex machina

Nope.  If you didn't read my spoilered "theory" in my last post, go do it.  I point out just how foreshadowed "something" was coming with Eren and how episode 5 made it glaringly obvious that whatever his father injected him with, it had something to do with his research on the Titans.  Regardless, they have been building this up with some subtlety for quite a while.

Quote
Frodo question about attacking the Titans.

I think they've explained this well enough, too.  For starters, these people got behind the walls and, for 100 years, have lived a peaceful existence.  They have still sent out patrols and research groups to try to find out more about the Titans, but overall they have not had a "need" to kill them for survival.  Now that the first wall fell, their survival hinges upon finding an actual solution to the Titan threat.  Basically, tho, for 100 years they didn't do much thinking about it, and so when the Titans breached and attacked again, they found that their current proposed methods were bunk.  NOW they're having to adapt, and quickly.

As for the methods of attacking the Titans, considering what we've seen in the animated for so far, I don't think you can come up with too many strategies that would work well.  I do find the technology levels to be confusing.  I mean, the tech that goes into the maneuvering gear seems to be far more advanced than their weapons technology.  That may simply be a matter of resource problems.  Hard to make good or advanced gunpowder or cannon balls if you don't have a lot of places to mine for metals and minerals and such.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 21, 2013, 07:55:24 PM
KS, are you implying I never enjoyed TTGL?  I loved that show to death.  It was so much fun, you couldn't help but get involved in everything.  The show also knew how to really increase the scale of every battle.

However, if I was examining it critically, the animation budget was clearly spent half the time, limiting what they could do otherwise, and the story was a bit odd at times.  Yoko's fanservice also got a bit old at times.  The show did one thing well,  and that was the universe.  It showed you enough of the universe to make you believe it, but not enough that it actually made you question everything.  The tone also was done well enough to let you know what was serious and what was balls to the wall fun time.  The serious side let you get attached to the characters, and then drew you into the battles with the characters you grew to know.  Overall, it was a pretty well done show. 

This series, however, is making me question several things and the shounen tropes aren't working well in the supposedly grimdark, serious universe they're going for.  I get the epic scale of everything,  but when the show was loaded with the bad kind of shounen tropes from the start, I was already on thin ice.  The latest episodes are making me question some of this stuff even more.  It's not a horrible show, but I'm wondering where the critical acclaim is coming from.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on May 21, 2013, 08:42:51 PM
KS, are you implying I never enjoyed TTGL?  I loved that show to death.  It was so much fun, you couldn't help but get involved in everything.  The show also knew how to really increase the scale of every battle.

However, if I was examining it critically, the animation budget was clearly spent half the time, limiting what they could do otherwise, and the story was a bit odd at times.  Yoko's fanservice also got a bit old at times.  The show did one thing well,  and that was the universe.  It showed you enough of the universe to make you believe it, but not enough that it actually made you question everything.  The tone also was done well enough to let you know what was serious and what was balls to the wall fun time.  The serious side let you get attached to the characters, and then drew you into the battles with the characters you grew to know.  Overall, it was a pretty well done show. 

This series, however, is making me question several things and the shounen tropes aren't working well in the supposedly grimdark, serious universe they're going for.  I get the epic scale of everything,  but when the show was loaded with the bad kind of shounen tropes from the start, I was already on thin ice.  The latest episodes are making me question some of this stuff even more.  It's not a horrible show, but I'm wondering where the critical acclaim is coming from.

I think what you're trying to say is you don't like Shonen tropes.  I've noticed that particular trait about a few people around here.  As for the critical acclaim, I think it's just the directing production values and overall visual style.  It's really well done in that regard for a TV series.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on May 21, 2013, 08:50:02 PM
What I don't like is the shounen tropes being misused or over-used.  It's the same stance I have on writing cliches.  Use them, but avoid over-using them or using them in such a way that it's just a crutch to make writing easier.  This show loved playing with all of the shounen tropes in the book from the beginning and now they're just trying to get you into it by making it a "this is an epic moment!" show.  If you want an example of shounen tropes used decently, look at Magi.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on May 21, 2013, 10:32:45 PM
Tropes have their place, by which I mean the "genre trappings" that someone should normally expect for a work in a specific genre.  The problem is when the trope is used in place of any thinking and to remove necessary characterization.

Let's take the classic, a Tsundere.  You can have a brilliantly created character that falls in general line with the expected personality type.  Or you can just tossed up a Tsundere flag the first time they're on screen and that's as much of the character as we get to know.   One is simply characterization (of which there's truly no "new" characters, in many regards, just a new take on an old type) done properly and the other is simply out-sourcing your storytelling to basic assumptions of audience.  It's very much in the vein of "Show vs Tell" in visual storytelling.  It's one thing to use visual cues for telling you most everything you need to know about a set of characters (Ep 1 of K establishes almost every character in Homura without actually saying anything in Japanese for several minutes; it's all visual or a little bit of bad English), but it's completely different thing to just toss out a character and have them do something generic for a trope hit, just so the audience can assume "oh, that's the death flagged character for the episode".  Of course, some seiyuus just doing the voice of a character makes you assume what they are.

So, in Titan's case, the problem isn't so much the tropes being used, but how they're only being used in place of seeing much.  Now, for most of the side characters, it makes sense.  In a GrimDark series, your death flag was raised by simply showing up on screen.  But, well, our MC is mostly just shouty... and angry.   And more shouting and anger.  And when they were 10, Armin was giving philosophical speeches that no child that age can handle.  Those are the types of problems.

Also, it doesn't help the world sits in the uncanny valley.  It's somewhat realistic, so the massive world flaws become pretty glaring, rather than something you think about in hindsight.   This could also be known as: We spent 15 pages destroying the entire Muv Luv universe for its stupidity and telling us we should take it seriously.

On the critical acclaim, that's what the pre-air hype was built around.  A popular series with acclaim from those critical of shounen series.  It mostly feels like an average shounen series with a massive case of emo, at the moment.  (It could get a lot better, I don't know)   But it should be pointed out this will likely sell over 25k BluRays for the first volume and the Manga is selling 500k+ back catalog each week for most of the month.  It'll probably be the #2 Manga for the year, at this rate.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 21, 2013, 10:51:12 PM
That and the other problem with this series as someone pointed out earlier is that the main characters are all completely unbelievable shounen tropes. However several of the minor characters are shown to be decently realistic in their actions. It's kind of jarring because I'm torn between taking this show seriously and not taking it seriously at all. And yeah it's ok to have shounen tropes but when the show is so very serious, you shouldn't risk making your characters seem so bland and two-dimensional (As hunter x hunter shows us, it's possible to have complex characters in a shounen).

To me this show would be better off being like Kaiji or Akagi. Where it's extremely over-dramatic but has such complex characters it's hard not to get immersed in it all.

And my favorite show last year was Jojo so I do love me some shounen don't get me wrong.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on May 21, 2013, 10:53:21 PM
Honestly, very little about Titan strikes me as overly reliant on tropes, and I have yet to see an argument for this case that makes any sense. I think the 3 main characters are very different from your typical shonen leads, and Eren in particular is a far crazier shonen protagonist than we ever typically see. Tell me how many shonen leads could murder people in cold blood like he did to save a girl, and maybe I'll start to believe it a bit.

The universe feels internally consistent, which is important. For all the trashing people gave muv luv, that universe actually is pretty well thought out. Not that the total eclipse anime was particularly good, it was pretty mediocre. I think Titan's setting works out fine so far, and I suspect answers for certain things will be revealed as the series goes on.

I think it's been a really enjoyable show personally. Very little bullshit, some compelling characters, and Araki's directing suits the material quite well. It's not necessarily the deepest entertainment around by any means, but damn do I find this show entertaining to watch.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 22, 2013, 12:09:19 AM
I'm with Reckoner on these points. While it may be shounen and has some pretty wonky action parts that fall into the awesome but impractical vein, I really don't think it is too terribly trope dependent.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 22, 2013, 06:22:11 AM
Not trope dependent?

Arin- The underdog main character, who has no special qualities (so they say) but relies on the power of guts and willpower to get by. Generally very over emotional and reckless. Also gains super power which will lead him to triumph. Not to mention his home town gets destroyed and he has a case of amnesia (every jrpg lead ever).

Mikasa- The calm and cool character whose good at everything, but will never probably match up to the main characters power of guts. Also becomes closest of friends/lovers with main character.

Armin- The incompetent character who is there to make the other two look cooler. Probably will be a fraidy cat who has an inferiority complex. Serves as the bridge between the other two main characters as being more logical and thoughtful.

If you can't tell I just described Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura and generally the majority of trio's and duo's in shounen anime.

Now of course that's oversimplifying things but you get the gist that's it's rather typical shounen at the moment. Yes we got that thing with Arin murdering people at the beginning, but I think that just serves as a point "hey if you forgot, Arin is really angry and reckless most of the time". Now if they go back into it, then all fine and dandy (though I doubt they will). The problem isn't the tropes per say, it's just that the characters themselves feel incredibly bland (SAO had the exact same problem really). For example in this episode, Mikasa ultimately gets positive character development. Unfortunately for her kind of character who is already pretty much perfect, getting positive character development will only serve to make her more bland later on and turn her into a potential complete Mary Sue. Hopefully not but I'm not not too confident at this point.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on May 22, 2013, 09:38:24 AM
Mikasa got positive character development? This episode showed that she is in fact a very flawed person. The moment that Eren got offed, she goes completely suicidal and was very irresponsible with the leadership position she took. This episode was basically about showing that she's no less reckless than Eren in many ways. She might be the equivalent of a super soldier, but she's no super leader, and she can be very irrational whereas Eren is concerned.

I'm not going to quibble over your interpretations of the characters, but I'll just say that I think this indeed is oversimplifying things (And some of what you're saying I don't think is even accurate). I can do the same thing with any character in existence and make them come off as generic.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Aelms on May 22, 2013, 12:44:32 PM
The shounen tropes are being forced onto the show more than anything else :/

I don't want to "get the gist" of anything because Titan is its own story and my viewing of it shouldn't be limited to how shows of a certain genre is supposed to be seen. I want to enjoy the refreshing setting where Titans kill people and pre-teens kill people. I don't want to think of all this as a set up for a dramatic, uplifting journey of learning the importance of friendship and getting new powers. I want to continue anticipating how the psychotic and asshole cast will grow.

It's nice that comparison can be drawn and all but this show definitely has its own set of unique merits.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 22, 2013, 01:12:35 PM
Yes Mikasa got her flaws shown but then she almost immediately recovered from them and developed into a positive leader. She reflected on her flaws and decided that she wouldn't give up, I'd say that's positive development.

Though I found it funny that when Mikasa lost it, no one died because of it. However when Eren lost it, he got his whole squad killed. Hopefully he'll learn something from that...but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 22, 2013, 01:41:50 PM
Not trope dependent?

Not really, no.  Each case taken respectively:

Quote
Arin- The underdog main character, who has no special qualities (so they say) but relies on the power of guts and willpower to get by. Generally very over emotional and reckless. Also gains super power which will lead him to triumph. Not to mention his home town gets destroyed and he has a case of amnesia (every jrpg lead ever).

He does have no special qualities, that much is certain.  So he ends up being the shounen lead that somehow finds something that puts him over others.  I said before this was coming.  However, the idea that he actually "relies" on the power of guts and willpower is asinine.  It hasn't done him any good at all.  In fact, as Reckoner pointed out, he's borderline psychopathic in his reactionary nature.  He killed those kidnappers / murderers without any thought at all, and he did so in a fit of anger, and not even MORALLY RIGHTEOUS anger.  He just hated them.  It all ties together with his philosophy on life behind the walls.  He's been an angry person for a very long time, and is prone to lapses in judgment where he lets his emotions get the better of him.  And, no, it hasn't led him to any good either.  In his rage, he led his team into disaster, resulting in everybody's death, including his own (presumably).  That he has been "rewarded" for his rash behavior is not because of his own machinations.  Indeed, where he goes from here will be far more interesting than what he has been before.  Will the knowledge that he has become a Titan destroy him (by becoming the thing he hates the most) or will it inspire him to fulfill his genocidal resolve, damn the consequences?  We'll see.

Quote
Mikasa- The calm and cool character whose good at everything, but will never probably match up to the main characters power of guts. Also becomes closest of friends/lovers with main character.

This isn't true at all.  Mikasa only seems calm and cool because she has to be, as Eren's foil.  This last episode showed quite well that she's just as capable of snapping under the stress of the war with the Titans as anybody else.  She wasn't giving an inspirational speech to the remaining troops.  She was trying to convince herself that she could go on.  She couldn't.  Her suicidal and reckless behavior afterward is proof that what she was saying and what she intended were two different things.  Her instincts for survival kept betraying her when she had finally resolved to give up and die rather than live on alone.  As of right now, she is the strongest Titan killer in the story, and we'll see where it goes from here.  Obviously, NOBODY is going to be better at handling Titans than Eren-Titan is, but we'll see what developments she has from here.

Quote
Armin- The incompetent character who is there to make the other two look cooler. Probably will be a fraidy cat who has an inferiority complex. Serves as the bridge between the other two main characters as being more logical and thoughtful.

Armin is a hypocrite.

Quote
If you can't tell I just described Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura and generally the majority of trio's and duo's in shounen anime.

Yeah, and I just corrected you on everybody.  You're wrong.  You're simplifying things as you wish to see them...

Quote
Now of course that's oversimplifying things

..oh wait you said that.

Quote
but you get the gist that's it's rather typical shounen at the moment.

It's not typical at all.  This is where people are getting lost.  Stories, at their beginnings, can seem typical because they haven't had enough time to differentiate themselves from other works.  As it was once stated "there are no original stories anymore", and this is especially true in anime.  Where Titan has tried to set itself apart is in the setting and the grimdark environment, but now we're at a point where the "true" story can begin.  This event with Eren is the launching point for a ton of possibilities.  If it DOESN'T go anywhere except down tropeville-lane, then I'll agree with you.  But for now, we haven't seen Titan hit it's stride yet.  We really don't know (unless you've read the manga) what the author is going to do.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 22, 2013, 03:02:16 PM
Quote
He does have no special qualities, that much is certain.  So he ends up being the shounen lead that somehow finds something that puts him over others.  I said before this was coming.  However, the idea that he actually "relies" on the power of guts and willpower is asinine.  It hasn't done him any good at all.  In fact, as Reckoner pointed out, he's borderline psychopathic in his reactionary nature.  He killed those kidnappers / murderers without any thought at all, and he did so in a fit of anger, and not even MORALLY RIGHTEOUS anger.  He just hated them.  It all ties together with his philosophy on life behind the walls.  He's been an angry person for a very long time, and is prone to lapses in judgment where he lets his emotions get the better of him.  And, no, it hasn't led him to any good either.  In his rage, he led his team into disaster, resulting in everybody's death, including his own (presumably).  That he has been "rewarded" for his rash behavior is not because of his own machinations.  Indeed, where he goes from here will be far more interesting than what he has been before.  Will the knowledge that he has become a Titan destroy him (by becoming the thing he hates the most) or will it inspire him to fulfill his genocidal resolve, damn the consequences?  We'll see.

Well considering he ranked 5 in his class through sheer willpower, somehow managed to do pretty well against the strongest titan, and is beating the royal crap out of all the other titans while seemingly being no different. I'd say it's getting him somewhere (but not everywhere yet). It's only the beginning of the show so this is more a prediction on my part, if he doesn't end up that way then I'll be happily surprised. My main fear is he won't develop and just keeps being angry the whole anime.

Quote
This isn't true at all.  Mikasa only seems calm and cool because she has to be, as Eren's foil.  This last episode showed quite well that she's just as capable of snapping under the stress of the war with the Titans as anybody else.  She wasn't giving an inspirational speech to the remaining troops.  She was trying to convince herself that she could go on.  She couldn't.  Her suicidal and reckless behavior afterward is proof that what she was saying and what she intended were two different things.  Her instincts for survival kept betraying her when she had finally resolved to give up and die rather than live on alone.  As of right now, she is the strongest Titan killer in the story, and we'll see where it goes from here.  Obviously, NOBODY is going to be better at handling Titans than Eren-Titan is, but we'll see what developments she has from here.


Well generally the cool character is the underdogs foil. And like I said in my last post, she snapped and then quickly recovered from it (Not saying they always have to be calm, but I really doubt her personality is going to change after this). Now my main concern is this episode will be the extent of her character development (I really hope not), as it doesn't seem like she's going to have any faults anymore.


Though like said, these are simply predictions and they could very well all be wrong (I hope they are).

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 22, 2013, 04:16:28 PM
Well, all Reckoner and I are trying to say is that the show isn't relying upon tropes.  At least not yet.  The tropes are THERE, sure, but they're not driving the show.  Every show is going to have some several tropes used, the difference, again, is where it goes after establishing the foundation.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 25, 2013, 10:59:48 AM
Ah my mistake then.

8: Good episode, saw it coming but regardless it was good fun. The animation team is getting a bit lazy, so I think until the end episodes it's probably going to mellow out from now on. I'm still not sure why Mikasa isn't the main character.

I predict Armin will get more development than any character hah. Also my current theory is all the titans were actually once human who were turned that way by some scientist. Probably to protect nature and keeps humans from affecting the world anymore or something like that. Though then the big question would be "If the other titans were human, than how come Eren can turn back but they can't?" Guess we'll have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Zeitgeist on May 25, 2013, 05:57:03 PM
Ridiculous show is fun. Moekasa...was awesome.
 
All the anomalous Titans, that is anomalous relative to the already enigmatic Titan, are sure to be special human types. The special ones being: maybe, probably, the uber large one, definitely that armoured sprinter, and surely a few to be introduced from this point. They are probably controlled by the higher ups within the human hierarchy. Whether their intentions are as laughably evil as some further pursuit/retention of power or fueled by the human populous out pacing its means of sustenance or even some intended galivnisation of man to reassert its dominance is whatever.

On the note of potential link between humans and the Titans...ever since episode one-ish, when Hannes(??? the drunk guard guy) turned and faced one of the first Titans, he was petrified. It was revealed to be due to a fear of death and what not, but, I couldnt help but think, as well as hope, it was because the Titan has the face of his late wife or dead mother or dead kid. Pretty dumb and an incredibly heavy handed means of forcing tension but it was the first thing that came to me as I saw the scene.

Any who, my ideas are stupid, the show remains entertaining.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on May 25, 2013, 06:30:39 PM
I couldnt help but think, as well as hope, it was because the Titan has the face of his late wife or dead mother or dead kid.
That's a cruel thing to wish a **** ugly wife/child onto a man. Man that wife would have needed to be incredibly ugly.

8:

So anyway, what a surprise, Eren was not in fact dead, and he was in fact the Titan, or inside the Titan, or something. He transformed fatass Hagrid into a lean mean fighting machine, I have to wonder at what other Titans he can hack. If he could hack that big one then they wouldn't need to care about Titans ever again, although as suggested those special Titans are most likely very similar to the Eren/Titan hybrid. But we can only speculate.

When the coward guy (aka Jean) was having that conversation with that irrelevant side character who kept thanking Jean for saving him, I was anticipating that the guy was going to get taken out at any second. However he survived, which I suppose is good, if you know from the death flagging alone that someone is going to die then that takes away a lot of the tension.

This is not my favourite show of the season, but it's still very entertaining. Next week's episode is probably going to be a bit shit though, it's going to be one of those "OMG HE'S A MONSTER!! WE MUST KILL HIM! **** THE FACT HE'S OUR BEST WEAPON AGAINST THEM!!" etc. etc. I can only hope it'll be better than I expect.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on May 25, 2013, 08:35:47 PM
8

Attack on Titan is now /m/echa.  No wonder they had to take out the back of the neck of titans.  That's where the person inside is piloting it.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Yggberry on May 26, 2013, 07:57:08 AM
I couldnt help but think, as well as hope, it was because the Titan has the face of his late wife or dead mother or dead kid.
That's a cruel thing to wish a **** ugly wife/child onto a man. Man that wife would have needed to be incredibly ugly.

8:

So anyway, what a surprise, Eren was not in fact dead, and he was in fact the Titan, or inside the Titan, or something. He transformed fatass Hagrid into a lean mean fighting machine, I have to wonder at what other Titans he can hack. If he could hack that big one then they wouldn't need to care about Titans ever again, although as suggested those special Titans are most likely very similar to the Eren/Titan hybrid. But we can only speculate.

When the coward guy (aka Jean) was having that conversation with that irrelevant side character who kept thanking Jean for saving him, I was anticipating that the guy was going to get taken out at any second. However he survived, which I suppose is good, if you know from the death flagging alone that someone is going to die then that takes away a lot of the tension.

This is not my favourite show of the season, but it's still very entertaining. Next week's episode is probably going to be a bit shit though, it's going to be one of those "OMG HE'S A MONSTER!! WE MUST KILL HIM! **** THE FACT HE'S OUR BEST WEAPON AGAINST THEM!!" etc. etc. I can only hope it'll be better than I expect.

It is in fact going to be KILL HIM! KILL HIM WITH FIRE! type of plot.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on May 26, 2013, 08:21:55 AM
BTW I see a bishounen in the preview. He's probably the character whose going to be like "you thought Mikasa was over-powered, get a load of this sunnovabitch"

Just based on the old shounen rule of the "the more attractive you are the stronger you are" hah.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 27, 2013, 09:19:20 PM
Hi all, first post.
7: I've noticed Tetsuro Araki does these sequences in which epic music plays to some momentous character decision while some giant monster/deadline/calamity looms overhead. There was one in episode 9 of guilty crown which, the rest of the episode notwithstanding, was pretty amazing.
8: I'd rather the next episode be another titan anatomy lesson or ... something. Its little fun watching people in this show argue, because the arguments move far too slowly to be engaging.

On a side note, just how close an adaptation is this?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on May 27, 2013, 10:45:00 PM
8:

I actually liked this episode a lot, probably because it finally stopped with the excessive angst and grimdarkness. Seems pretty silly that this is now going to be some sort of bio-mecha, but oh well I'll just wait and see how that turns out.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 27, 2013, 11:56:41 PM
8:

I like when multiple storylines are told simultaneously.  It allows for a feeling of cohesion and different perspectives of the chaos of battle.  In this case, you have Mikasa's group, where Armin is starting to demonstrate his abilities lie with strategy and planning than actual combat; you have Jean's group, which is about his becoming a reluctant leader of men; and of course there's Eren-Titan romping and stomping around doing his thing.  Then, they all come together at a convergence for a last ditch effort to survive.  That's the kind of smart writing more shows need.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on May 27, 2013, 11:59:20 PM
On a side note, just how close an adaptation is this?

Very close. Nearly no deviations at all.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 28, 2013, 07:19:48 AM
8:

I like when multiple storylines are told simultaneously.  It allows for a feeling of cohesion and different perspectives of the chaos of battle.  In this case, you have Mikasa's group, where Armin is starting to demonstrate his abilities lie with strategy and planning than actual combat; you have Jean's group, which is about his becoming a reluctant leader of men; and of course there's Eren-Titan romping and stomping around doing his thing.  Then, they all come together at a convergence for a last ditch effort to survive.  That's the kind of smart writing more shows need.

I agree with all but the second part of this. The show's Point of view changes and what I like to call intersections(when you see one POV character from another's perspective, but only for a short while) are few and far between, so what its most effective at is not portraying tactics, chaos, or even the general progression of the battle, but the different ways in which the characters emotionally deal with the titans, which is a front this show is delivering on right now.
I really love Jean's characterisation here; it gives me real military fantasy vibes.

Anyway, what ends up happening is that the show loses the tactical, "real-time" aspect to the action that Gargantia's Pilot episode had. Scenes like Eren saving Armin by mysteriously teleporting to Santa-titan in Ep5 excacerbate the problem, and scenes like Eren-Titan's glorious reappearance mitigate it. Overall though, It feels more like i'm reading a manga than watching, say, a StarcraftII replay. This slow cinematography worked for Fate/Zero because watching its characters plot and plan was always fun, but Fate/Zero had variables like feints, intelligence, and mind-gaming which Titan pays little attention to.
I think a few moving backgrounds and shots with the characters staring at titans in the distance would really, really, help the show in this regard.
 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on May 28, 2013, 08:19:48 PM
8:

So yes, a miracle has taken place. But what this episode has done more than anything else is raising questions that needs a lot of explaining to do: how did Eren survive and what sort of logic goes behind Eren's trick of actually controlling a Titan to his advantage? And yes, the Garrison is going to be anal with their judgment of calling Eren a monster. All I really know is, if the Corps have been wanting to know the key behind the Titans, then why would it see Eren as a war criminal and not a hero (if Mikasa and the gang serves as key witnesses to the situation)?

And yeah, TIF is right: although the storyline is pretty much linear, the way it's told from three different perspectives that converge into one conclusion is commendable. I don't really get to see that in a lot of series these days.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 29, 2013, 01:15:20 AM
8:

You know what that was f*cking brilliant. I had been told that Eren was the titan, but this makes so much sense. I'm not at all upset anymore. Just genius.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Superhello2020 on May 29, 2013, 02:00:20 PM
Well, I guess this show isn't too interested with playing with my expectations.  The main problem with bringing characters back to life after they've been eaten is that it neuters the overpowered, everpresent threat to our protagonists that set this series apart from other anime.  Now it's just going to be more like superman when he dies in a comic, I guess.  However, I'm still having a lotta fun.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on June 01, 2013, 12:57:00 PM
9: And I thought Mikasa was overpowered. Jeesus, I know it's an over the top shounen but I think adding in that kind of character is a bit much. I guess this is why this character is the fan favorite though. Why are teenagers so much better than adults?

Regardless it was a fun epsiode, so I can't really complain.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on June 01, 2013, 05:06:33 PM
9:

That episode flew by, I was surprised when the "to be continued" screen came up. Okay, you got me there SnK, I really want to know what's up with Eren now, and I didn't even hate the "KILL IT WITH FIRE" shit that I feared, but then I bet it's only going to get worse.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Zeitgeist on June 01, 2013, 07:18:58 PM
So humans are capable of more than just dejection and fear. There exist some capable people within the army or whatever it is called. It was nice to see Ehren calmly ascertain the situation he was in and act accordingly. The whole epic flashbacks with the escalating situation at the end made for a thrilling conclusion. This is the first episode which genuinely left me wanting more. Kudos to the show.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on June 02, 2013, 01:11:22 PM
9

Well, that was actually quite riveting.  I feel that the director Araki was born to adapt this show.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on June 03, 2013, 08:02:10 PM
9:

...what just happened?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 03, 2013, 08:43:35 PM
I think the show finally gave up on painting the whole "fighting the titan things" as semi-realistic in the confines of the universe and it's going balls to the wall wild, embracing the shounen roots.

In a way, I may hate the way this show seems to rely on the tropes,  but the fact that it's at least ready to admit it and go crazy means we're in for fun.  Up to this point, it's been trying to be like, "No, really!  I want to be to taken really seriously as a grim dark, tension filled show".  Now, it's just going to be absolutely crazy.  I mean, our protagonist bit his thumb and turned into a titan because of a magical injection by his father at least a couple years ago.  I'm glad it's happening this way.  For once, I'm looking forward to the next episode, rather than merely being curious over the whole "where will this go" angle.  It's cliche, but I'll take that over super grimdark.  I hate Valvrave for it, but the characters in this show have some intelligence and it's a nice change of pace.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 03, 2013, 10:55:47 PM
9:

"Ah **** you!" - My brother when the cliffhanger ending pissed us all off.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Zeitgeist on June 08, 2013, 06:26:21 PM
"You've helped us plenty of times. Like all those times, remember? Like that one time."

Was Ehren always this enjoyable a character to watch? 

Captain Beardsley's actions were understandable. Apparently it takes an eccentric to act otherwise. The murmurs of the indecisive foot soldiers were a bit much. Kinda surprised they revealed everything to Pixis. It is most definitely for the best. I like how they played with the impractical notion of him escaping and somehow losing his pursuers to wind up at the basement. For a second I thought it was gonna be  "a trio of friends against the world as they set out to save humanity from itself...and voracious giants." Though this does kinda spoil the potential of a big reveal that the Titans were really fabricated by man this whole time. Guess I'll have to just accept that the story isn't that bad.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 08, 2013, 07:20:06 PM
I predict this show will pull what I call the "Mass Effect 3 event".  It occurs when the show builds up the drama and potential, wasting it in the end for a reveal that everyone will eventually criticize.  I hope it turns out well, but the more the show builds up the ending, the higher the chance it will just fail spectacularly. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on June 08, 2013, 09:10:24 PM
I predict this show will pull what I call the "Mass Effect 3 event".  It occurs when the show builds up the drama and potential, wasting it in the end for a reveal that everyone will eventually criticize.  I hope it turns out well, but the more the show builds up the ending, the higher the chance it will just fail spectacularly.

Though in that case they'll release a special blu-ray ova with an alternate ending. Though I don't really know how that can happen. I thought mass effect 3 had a complex plot or something (I've never played it) while Titan seems pretty straight-forward. I hope people are watching it more for the action than the story at the very least.

Or the manga creator can go on an infinite number of hiatus's and this series can turn into berserk.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 08, 2013, 09:22:28 PM
Hyper, complexity isn't the factor.  What made everyone disappointing with Mass Effect 3 was the fact that the gamer had built up their character for 3 games.  That build up isn't the same here, but it means that, by the end, the viewers will all have a new or epic idea on what it could mean.  When the ending doesn't match the expectations, criticism could easily follow if the show doesn't direct the experience effectively.  An alternate ending is a possibility if that happens, but who knows what they could have planned at that point.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on June 09, 2013, 01:51:46 AM
Ah I see that is true. And with the alternate ending thing, I'm just saying if the fans make enough backlash they could certainly make one. That's what happened with Mass Effect 3 if I'm not mistaken...then again I think that's probably one of the only times I've heard of that happen so probably not.

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on June 09, 2013, 10:48:01 AM
Looking back on this season I think this show is kind of the representative of what it's all been about.  Unlike Fall which had some reasonably intellectually stimulating shows this Spring season has primarily been about flashy big dumb fun and larger than life personalities carrying the day and I don't think any show better encapsulates that (in a good way) than Attack on Titan.  That said I'm starting to feel a little brain drain from anime watching this season which is probably why I've been playing some more video games than usual and started reading again.  There's really on so much attractive people/things beating up ugly people/things a person can take all at once after all. 0.0

I think the show finally gave up on painting the whole "fighting the titan things" as semi-realistic in the confines of the universe and it's going balls to the wall wild, embracing the shounen roots.

In a way, I may hate the way this show seems to rely on the tropes,  but the fact that it's at least ready to admit it and go crazy means we're in for fun.  Up to this point, it's been trying to be like, "No, really!  I want to be to taken really seriously as a grim dark, tension filled show".  Now, it's just going to be absolutely crazy.  I mean, our protagonist bit his thumb and turned into a titan because of a magical injection by his father at least a couple years ago.  I'm glad it's happening this way.  For once, I'm looking forward to the next episode, rather than merely being curious over the whole "where will this go" angle.  It's cliche, but I'll take that over super grimdark.  I hate Valvrave for it, but the characters in this show have some intelligence and it's a nice change of pace.

No offense but that's what I like to call being picky choosy about stuff.  To me the two shows kind of have a similar vibe going on with how they place rule of cool ahead of most other things that one considers when writing a story.  That doesn't just randomly make one show somehow better or more tolerable than the other unless you are deliberately trying to single one out to be hated and the other trying to at least give a chance which frankly looks like exactly what you are doing.  I'd also argue that like this show Valvrave has some characters that show intelligence and foresight and one things leads to another more than people give it credit for, but if you simply choose not to see it for one versus the other there's really not much to be said.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on June 09, 2013, 11:34:38 PM
10:

You know it's great for Armin to finally realize that he's only a deadweight because he thinks he's one and all, but that whole "what do we do?" scene was kinda unrealistic. Armin has a hundred things going through his head, and Mikasa and Eren was fighting over what's the next best thing to do. And all of this was supposed to be happening in what, a few minutes? I don't see how that's possible when that whole thing took half the episode. It's as though everything was happening at least 3 times faster that what we're watching, which doesn't make sense...

...another unrelated note, but I notice and wonder one thing. If there's one thing certain about this show, it's that it shows a lot of characters yelling their lungs out. Though it makes for good viewing, I'm not sure if it necessarily makes this show intense. If anything, yelling == noisy. I wonder if yelling is this show's only mean of intensifying moments when a great narrative would be able to do so without yelling.

Just drifting from the story a little.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 09, 2013, 11:58:11 PM
AC, don't think about it too hard.  Namek lasted a lot longer than 5 minutes, too.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on June 10, 2013, 10:50:24 AM
9: Cool sh*t bro. He can like, use a mecha summoning spell.

10: The whole Armin's going to convince everyone with an epic speech like a boss affair is dumb. Speeches like those never work. The music does their work for them. Titan's lucky it has such a stellar soundtrack.
And Yeah, everything AC said is spot on. Time and Distance get warped around a lot in almost all of Titan's sequences, so much so that all predictability goes to hell. Half the reason I have no clue what the next Titan battle is going to be like is because I dont know the game mechanics 220 minutes in. Thats ridiculous.

And by the way, If Titans turn to ash really fast before they die because(I dont know why because), how'd the technical crew make a wall of titans to clog the entrance? They'd decompose in an hour or three. I cant even pick world building holes in it because warped spacetime.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Zeitgeist on June 15, 2013, 04:46:35 PM
Now that the show has hit its stride, sort of, it is one of the most captivating I've seen in a while. But, when it inevitably slows down, when this mission ends and it goes into exposition mode, I wonder if it can keep its momentum. The early episodes were rather hard to watch.

That girl's speech towards the end was completely needless and potentially detrimental. Dumb speech could have easily affected Ehren's mental state. Obviously the plan couldn't go off without a hitch. Glad someone acknowledged how freakin' huge that boulder is and a to scale human, among a multitude of reasons, would be unable to lift/carry it.   
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on June 15, 2013, 07:25:24 PM
11:

WHAT

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on June 16, 2013, 06:17:26 AM
Glad someone acknowledged how freakin' huge that boulder is and a to scale human, among a multitude of reasons, would be unable to lift/carry it.   
More to the point a human of that size would collapse under it's own weight and die, the fact that you can get Titans that are higher than the wall show that they are much much much stronger than humans even for their size. If that 50m one was human sized, then it would probably still be so strong that it could lift that rock.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 16, 2013, 06:30:35 AM
11: I find myself often just yelling "Do something!" when I watch this show.  Can we move past the epic speeches and introduce this dialogue in a more dynamic manner?  I like epic speeches too, but that doesn't mean the show should slow time to a near stop to yell exposition at me with this character or that character.  That's all this show does lately: slow time to a near stop and give us so much exposition that I feel like I'm suffocating under their desire to make this all a grand affair. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 16, 2013, 04:56:28 PM
11:

Finally, Titan has introduced the one thing I have been afraid of for a while now:  dramatic storylines beyond the Titan threat.

You see, while the show was still building it's world and characters, everything was fine because there was still no way to handle the Titan threat.  Humanity has always been on the edge of a knife, with the colossal titan ready to end this at any moment (why this has been prolonged is one of the mysteries).  However, now that Eren has the power to fight Titans single-handedly, the threat of the Titans is starting to wane.  Couple with that the numerous scenes we've had lately of people being able to take down Titans, sometimes solo, and inevitably humanity is going to halt the advance and start fighting back.  That's when the series has to switch gears.  Without the overwhelming fear of Titan dominance, the effect of using them to create tension and drama is nullified.  This is the same problem I mentioned before while watching High School of the Dead and Battlestar Galactica's relaunch.  Once the main "enemy" is no longer an issue, the writer has to find something else to dominate the landscape.  In the two shows I am mentioning, the writers turn towards how much humans suck, especially in a chaotic situation or a crisis.  We've already had panicky stupid and angry humans running around, but their actions were generally justified if extreme.  Now, though, we have the general guy telling us that the enemy isn't JUST the Titans.  Obviously a precursor and foreshadowing to the gear shift.

Of course, I could be wrong on this, and we may have nothing but Titany goodness for a long time yet.  I'm just afraid eventually we'll delve into this area and start making some social commentary.

BTW, nice job of the writer smacking down the Code Geass / Watchmen theory (where a big central threat would unite humanity in cooperation and harmony).
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 16, 2013, 06:12:55 PM
I think this entire show is a social commentary.  So far, we've basically had the show tell us that humans are mostly dejected, horrible individuals when put in a corner with no options.  On top of that, they're like sheep, following the lead of the person in front of them because it cuts down on the thinking.  Granted, this show hasn't shown the hopeful side all that often, preferring we see emotionless, bad ass characters, the "If I yell, I'm stronger" type of character, or the "Oh god, if I'm going to die, I'm going to to just go cry in a corner until I'm called forward" character.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: XRavsterX on June 17, 2013, 09:26:23 AM
Saying that this show has social commentary is giving it way too much credit. So far, from what I have seen in Kyojin and other anime of it's type, it is still very much a cookie-cutter anime. Same characters, same tropes, same connections, same tragic backstories - same everything. I -still- don't see why Kyojin is getting as much hype as it's had so far - the music score is the only thing that spectacular about it. It's keeping my interests, but everything up until episode 10/11 has been predictable.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 17, 2013, 10:29:13 AM
You'll have to excuse the lack of tone in my typing.  I actually meant that in a funny, sarcastic way.  (I'm often sarcastic or serious when it comes to criticisms.) 

I was one of the people that insisted this show was relying on tropes and cliches as writing crutches from the start.  I'm in agreement with you, Ravster.  This show's hype never got to me and it always seemed like it was either taking too long to get to the action or pretending it was some big essay on the state of humanity.  I'm just waiting to see how they manage the ending and create something that isn't a disappointment or exceedingly predictable.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 17, 2013, 10:31:07 AM
Okay, I don't know how many damned times I have to say this, but...

There is no such thing as an original concept or idea anymore.  Everything is going to rely on some kind of trope(s) that is already established in order to build a world that the audience can accept and adapt to.  What you do FROM THERE is what separates one show from another.

If you're not capable of understanding what Titan has done thus far that separates it from other shows, I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise.  You either enjoy this, or you don't.  The problem I find is that people who aren't enjoying this, are doing so because they can't understand the hype.  They're LOOKING for things to not like about Titan.  Just relax, uncork your pretense, and watch the show.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 17, 2013, 10:45:02 AM
You're misunderstanding my dislike, TypicalIdiotFan.  I dislike the show when it tries to be something it isn't.  From the start, it was presenting itself as something epic when all that was involved was over competent characters and a ton of build up to what, at the time, seemed like something that wouldn't be amazing. 

Now that we've seen the battles, I'll fully admit it does action well.  When it goes all out for the combat sequences, it's pretty damn fun.  You've got grappling, dramatic maneuvers, and giants the size  5 humans stacked on each other.  The writing, on the other hand, has suffered from the start.  The key to working with tropes and old ideas is to take them and make something new out of them.  From this show, we've seen all of the typical characters.  We've got the yeller that's more powerful the louder he yells, the over competent, emotionless friend that outclasses the main character, and even the friends that are initially dicks, later friendly, to the main character for no reason. 

You name it, the series has relied on all of the tropes to tell a story that's good for the action.  The sad thing is that when it tries to go out of the box, the moments are beyond outlandish and you can only laugh at the attempts to do something that just isn't working with the characters.  As an example, we can look at the beginning.  Mikasa, Armand, and Eren just escaped and they're getting bread rations.  However, Eren is the tough, no nonsense kid that wants to take on all the Titans, denying the bread out of a misguided sense of revenge and duty.  The response?  Mikasa yells at him(What? No slap?) and just stuffs the bread in his mouth.  I get that you're on you're rise to be emotionless, but you want to find a more reasonable way of talking to the kid, Mikasa?  That's just one example too.  This series is full of examples like that.

I like that the show can do action well, but you need more than that.  Even if it's just set-up for the action set pieces, at least make it competent.  Good fights, epic music, and bad writing does not make for an overall "good" experience.  At most, it's average.  Even if you have to use the tropes horribly, at least admit it's a thing.  When Eren turned into a titan with his thumb, I had fun for once.  The show wasn't trying to tell you a serious story about dejected humans.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on June 17, 2013, 11:04:26 AM
Eren is a yeller, but a crazy as hell yeller. Again, I'm still waiting for someone to point me to another character like him who would murder other people in cold blood out of a sense of justice like him in a typical shonen series.

Anyhow, I don't see anything wrong with the scene you pointed out. Eren was being a brat, and Mikasa knocked him down and put some sense into him. Does titan like to do everything with flair and over the top sequences? Hell yes, but it's never presented itself as any different. If you don't like that sort of flair that Araki amplifies in this manga adaption, then fine, but I still have not seen where the "bad writing" claim is all that justified.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 17, 2013, 11:21:06 AM
I feel like taking tropes and cliches into a new direction and using them for your own story is a very important factor when it comes to writing that stands out for at least being more than the sum of it's parts.

As for the quality of the writing, it isn't inherently bad, just mostly lazy, and I wouldn't mind that as much if the show didn't try to present the picture it does.  It wants everything to be serious and epic. allowing you to yell with the characters and get into the action.  Alongside all of this, you have them trying to tell a serious drama about the dejected humans gaining the fight against the Titans, rising up against them.  You can tell because they focus a crazy amount of time on the the characters interacting and discussing just how bad everything is.  They want you to get involved.

This contrasts the hammy characters, the plot twists that are either predictable or beyond crazy, and the effects.  I mean, how do I take a scene where a girl grips a knife so hard, it breaks as green lightning surrounds her seriously?  This is compounded by the fact that the tropes are inherently shounen and crazy.  It adds a tone that brings you out of the drama and puts you in the mindset for something that's altogether against their wish.

Shows like Gurren Lagann used that to their advantage, using the serious tone when it was due.  However, it knew when to make a joke out of everything.  It was fun in the best kind of way, where the writing works with the action to create a consistent tone.  This show is working against the tone it wants by relying on such silly and overdone tropes. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 17, 2013, 12:17:12 PM
Like I said before... if you're going in looking for problems, you'll find them.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 17, 2013, 12:48:52 PM
I'm naturally cynical and quite critical, even if I love the show.  That often means that I'm harsh on it, despite the enjoyment I get out of these shows.  In this case, it's less looking for problems, more examining it for flaws from the start.  If the good outweighs the bad, the show is pretty good for me, despite the flaws. 

Granted, any criticism is based on what the show is trying to do with it's tone, writing, and other aspects, but I at least try to be fair.  For Shingeki no Kyojin, the fighting stands out for having fantastic choreography and a consistent pace.  If you can look past the rather odd conflict of tone, it's also entertaining to see what the show does next.  The visuals manage to portray a very odd mix of technology and a pseudo-medieval world well.  When the characters aren't relying purely on what the tropes dictate, there is also very good chemistry between the main characters and some of the side characters.

However, I also look writing variety and seeing what they do with the material they use.  Magi stands out to me for using shounen tropes with such a pure heart, I can't help but admire what it does.  This show has it's own style that I don't think works out too well at times.  Some people can overlook that kind of thing, but the writing dictates what happens, how it happens, how you perceive it, and how the characters react.  If the writing is sour, I like to think it can sour the other aspects and overpower them, no matter how good the show is.     
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on June 17, 2013, 01:43:07 PM
11:

F**k this. The cliffhangers are getting annoying now.

The subtle shift towards humour is a really good decision in my opinion; sure, theres bitches in every army, but soldiers are, according to our badass russian-blooded adjutant glasses girl, prepared for the risks of battle, so the unmitigated panic and terror that -as the show loves to tell us- keeps spreading through the ranks just shouldn't spread as fast or as virulently. Laughing it off and being intentionally stupid or sardonic feels like a much more natural reaction to pre-battle anxiety to me, as opposed to everyone losing their shit all the time. Given the way human militaries are arranged in Titan's era, there are no more conscripted, regular infantry anymore. Everyone is a trained soldier, and the angst involved with killing other humans that plagues today's soldiers shouldn't exist in Titan either, as its taken as a given in-universe that titans are non-sentient monsters. Less grimdark, more black humour please.

Another good thing here was the shift in focus towards position in the action.

If this show stopped trying to be "Hey, did you know, humans suck?" - The anime, it would be so much better. And though the speeches dont work very well, I like to think they arent intended to. The most effective moments are when the music stops and the characters stop yelling.

PURELY UNINFORMED SPECULATION: The colossal and armored titans are people like Eren who can summon titan bodies. Thats what the show means by real threat is not just the titans, and thats why those titans can appear at random from nowhere. Still doesn't explain how they disappear, but its very possible the show pulls the Eren-oids slowly lose their humanity by repeatedly transforming into a titan route.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 17, 2013, 06:35:30 PM
PURELY UNINFORMED SPECULATION: The colossal and armored titans are people like Eren who can summon titan bodies. Thats what the show means by real threat is not just the titans, and thats why those titans can appear at random from nowhere. Still doesn't explain how they disappear, but its very possible the show pulls the Eren-oids slowly lose their humanity by repeatedly transforming into a titan route.

I think this is a sound piece of logic.  At the very least, those two particular Titans act much more differently than the others.  Most Titans are pretty mindless, aside from the single-track thought process of killing humans.  They don't appear to have any ability to reason or problem solve, and simply act on instinct.  Those other two special Titans, tho, have both shown that they know how to get past the defenses, and only do so when necessary.  They also appear with the same green lightning effect that happens when Eren transforms.

What this could imply, though, is that the colossal Titan and the armored Titan are both humans who have betrayed the others.  If I had to hazard a guess, I would say they are frustrated extremists, much like Eren and Armin, who are trying to force humanity to deal with the Titan threat rather than sit comfortably behind their walls.  This would explain why the colossal has only appeared twice:  once to (literally) kick start the process and another time three years later when nothing really came of it.

This also might imply that Eren's dad is in on it, and why he decided to inject his son with the concoction that would allow him to transform into a Titan as well.  Maybe these two were dad's experiments before.  Maybe they always had planned this, and then dad changed his mind.  Maybe they were never supposed to get "free" and acted out on their own impulses.  Whatever is in the house's basement holds a lot of answers.  I think we can rule out Eren's dad actually being one of them, tho, since he was way far inland when the attack happened.  Though isn't that convenient in and of itself?

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on June 17, 2013, 07:53:11 PM
On the Spoilers:

I've heard the reason for the 2 super titans is kind of pathetic.  I think the theory you proposed is quite good.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on June 18, 2013, 01:40:51 AM
11:

I rolled my eyes when I saw "Battle of Trost (7)". The pacing of this show is unbearable.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on June 18, 2013, 02:08:11 AM
It's a chapter per month manga adaptation.  I think it's required to have pacing problems.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on June 18, 2013, 02:49:57 AM
Comparing the titles of the volumes and episodes tells me we are somewhere in the third volume of ten, and have been advancing at a rate of a chapter an episode. That doesn't seem too stretched out to me. Even then, some battles are better stretched out. In Trost's case, it helps enhance the notion of a lack of progress in humanity's resistance against the titans. If the show hadnt been trying to shove that down our throats since the beginning of the show, it would be much better, but as it stands, I think keeping the battle painfully slow and emphasising the fact that there is always more waiting than fighting goes in the show's favour.
Mostly, I've seen the incredibly-stretched-out-battle method to demonstrate the age old "War is hell" point, and seeing as how titan uses it for something slightly different, it deserves credit.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: XRavsterX on June 18, 2013, 09:59:58 AM
GRANTED

If you're not capable of understanding what Titan has done thus far that separates it from other shows, I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise.  You either enjoy this, or you don't.  The problem I find is that people who aren't enjoying this, are doing so because they can't understand the hype.  They're LOOKING for things to not like about Titan.  Just relax, uncork your pretense, and watch the show.

First point granted. I'll give it to you.

However, I'm not asking this to be an ass, or to be sarcastic, or to question your insight into it, but please TIF what exactly has this show done that makes it stand out from others like it? Admittedly, I started this anime late, so I watched 2-3 at a time to catch up, so maybe I missed out on pacing... or it blurred together, idk. What guidance can you offer?

In regards to the Titan discussion, I must admit I did think that might have been the case. It'd certainly be interesting to see what is in the basement.

In the next episode, or the next one given this show's pacing, I predict that one of these things will happen:

1) Titan Eren will somehow use the boulder to block the gate, but the Armoured Titan will come and break through anyway.
2) Titan Eren will somehow use the boulder to block the gate, but will block the gate from the other side, so he can go to the basement alone.
3) Titan Eren will somehow use the boulder to block the gate, but will block the gate from the other side, so he can go to the basement alone, but the Armoured Titan will come and break through anyway.
4) Titan Eren will continue to target Mikasa, unintentionally venting his annoyance at always being treated like a kid by her.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on June 19, 2013, 07:45:17 PM
11:

You know what this show can go without? The recaps. Seriously, why do we need to be reminded how the story starts for every episode when we eagerly wait for new ones all the time? We don't have short-term memory, you know.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Zeitgeist on June 22, 2013, 05:19:43 PM
lol at the hilarious looking titan chasing Jean. I would be upset being killed by that androgyn. The first half was pretty unbearable. The speeches and the continual back and forth about the value of a soldier and the value of death is quickly becoming stale.  Or, should I say, has already become stale. A necessary episode I suppose, one doesn't simply obtain a demon form without at least a single episode devoted to initial control.

Some pretty hilarious loses in continuity between shots. Mikasa commenting how 2 elite squads wouldn't be able to kill 4 titans while effortlessly killing one on her own was hilarious. The fact that the so called elites were as uncommitted and unwilling to die as the newbies was also pretty hilarious. How do they manage to swing behind the ones on the roofs? The architecture is pretty symmetrical with all the houses at the same relatively low height. Yet, you see their lines taught and attached to something off screen that doesn't exist. An obvious problem I'm sure everyone foresaw when they first introduced the combat mechanics. Spider-man doesn't do so well in suburbia. It didn't bother me until this episode. The first half just completely shut me out and I pretty much spent the later half just hating every aspect of the show. I didn't plan on hating the mobility mechanics until they actually demonstrated it working, within an episode, in dense forest like the OP or EP.

 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 22, 2013, 05:45:49 PM
To be fair, the movement system doesn't belong anyways.  In this world full of medieval technology and archaic, by our standards, ideas, they have gas propelled, ultra modern grappling systems.  Even we can't really make a system like that work today and we use massive units that would be beyond any use in the battlefield.  Besides, I think they've done this all the time in the show.  They show you a taut line but then all of the houses are flat and there's almost nothing, besides maybe a chimney, that they could attach too.  I just chalk it up as another flaw in this whole idea.

Don't get me wrong; it's really cool to see.  However, there's hilarious ways in which it just doesn't work or fit in the world.  This is especially true when you compare it to their ancient cannons.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on June 22, 2013, 07:17:13 PM
Well now this is a proper shounen action anime.  The pacing has gone to Namek.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on June 22, 2013, 11:14:39 PM
they have gas propelled, ultra modern grappling systems. Even we can't really make a system like that work today and we use massive units that would be beyond any use in the battlefield
This is especially true when you compare it to their ancient cannons.

Suspension of disbelief(No way escaping gas would propel you significantly outside of zero-g). You cant properly kill a titan with a cannon for accuracy reasons (headshots on a moving target would be nigh impossible). Hell, they probably couldn't kill titans with ballistae. So they focus their efforts on grapples and superhardened steel. They probably only use the cannons to slow down approaching titans and as supporting artillery.

Random interesting point:
=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=

=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=
As the badly drawn picture shows, there are two sets of rails on which the cannons can be moved; one on the outer edge, one on the inner edge. As far as I've seen, There are almost no places where a cannon in one rail can be switched to the other, and the cannons cannot be flipped to point backwards. So, a good deal of the cannons(I'll assume half or a third) are dedicated to pointing at the inner edge of the wall. Either someone considered the idea of the superwalls being breached(more probable) or the cannons are literally pointing inwards(less probable).

They show you a taut line but then all of the houses are flat and there's almost nothing, besides maybe a chimney, that they could attach too.  I just chalk it up as another flaw in this whole idea.

No objections. Save for the bell towers, and the fact that they keep almost dangerously close to the ground for a good deal of the time. That defense is not always applicable though.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: FuurinKazan on June 23, 2013, 12:13:03 AM
Random interesting point:
=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=

=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=
As the badly drawn picture shows, there are two sets of rails on which the cannons can be moved; one on the outer edge, one on the inner edge. As far as I've seen, There are almost no places where a cannon in one rail can be switched to the other, and the cannons cannot be flipped to point backwards. So, a good deal of the cannons(I'll assume half or a third) are dedicated to pointing at the inner edge of the wall. Either someone considered the idea of the superwalls being breached(more probable) or the cannons are literally pointing inwards(less probable).

(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag24/juniojanderrick/SnK_zpsee6b1583.jpg)

Here's a place where cannons between rails can be switched. Not sure how abundant they are though. As for the cannons being flipped, I think passing a cannon through the rail in the middle effectively flips its orientation.

On another note, yeah, the pacing is quite a pain. Hopefully episode 14 or something won't be a recap. We already have one every episode to deal with.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on June 23, 2013, 01:37:44 AM
The cannons setup as cannon-bollos would have ended most of their problems 100 years before.  So, chain shot.  You don't need to worry about accuracy as much when you can take off limbs.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 23, 2013, 02:03:43 AM
I think we can explain a lot of this away by simple necessity.  For 100 years, they haven't had a need to upgrade their cannon technology or come up with better weapons against the Titans.  The reason that they upgraded their maneuvering gear, though, was for the explorations quads.  Those guys had to be fast and mobile, so dragging around a cannon doesn't make sense.  The gear also allows for quick climbing of walls, for both assaulting and escaping purposes (which has been demonstrated numerous times).

Form and function, and necessity.  That's all really.  I think Erin's dad would have worked on the Titan solution a lot more fervently if he knew the end was near.  You got the idea, though, that he was taking his sweet time with it.  Again, without the impending threat, there wasn't much need to hustle, and they mention in the first episode how complacency has taken over amongst the troops.  One of the reasons the initial invasion was so devastating was that the troops sucked.  They didn't practice with their gear much, and didn't fight live Titans until that day, so they really weren't ready for it.  The groups going out now, though, are much more prepared.

That's just how I look at it.  Could they have come up with a better way?  Probably.  But this is what they've got right now and so they have to make it work.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on June 23, 2013, 03:01:55 AM
12:

A lot of the ideas and scenes presented are either rehashes of stuff we've already seen in the show, or are typical in shounen anime. The episode still kept my attention, but the astute attention to detail and depth of thought from earlier isn't showing as much, and that's a disappointment for me. 

Also this Mikasa blushing had better be the beginning and end of any sibling romance shenanigans. Japan, please no.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 23, 2013, 03:49:10 AM
They're not siblings.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 23, 2013, 06:13:51 AM
I get that, if there was a universe like this, that mobile units would absolutely required.  However, I question how the units are manufactured, were came up with, and were introduced in the first place. 

They explain they've been complacent for the last 100 years.  How does this not effect the gas propelled units and surgically sharp sword blades?  They could come up with that, but not a more effective cannon system or delivery system?  How do they manufacture these surgically sharp blades at any decent rate?  A black smith could may make those, but the way that you can go through them suggests you would need mass manufacturing.  The gas propelled units also seem like something that's a little too smooth for some blacksmiths to hammer out.  How are they making these items?  I wouldn't mind this point if they just explained with a plausible solution. 

As for how it was for how it was introduced, I also question that.  I don't know if an intermission screen told us, but I figure they would tell use that kind of thing for what's essentially the most important piece of technology in the whole show. 

Keep in mind that I'm not really hating the show for this.  These are just some questions that have popped up when I looked at what they were using and then I considered the otherwise standard medieval with a bit of mad science(The formula in the needle).
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on June 23, 2013, 12:18:59 PM
The cannons setup as cannon-bollos would have ended most of their problems 100 years before.  So, chain shot.  You don't need to worry about accuracy as much when you can take off limbs.

Just saying.

Limbs grow back. Supposedly really fast because Titan regeneration. So to kill a titan, you'd need to chain shot its neck and that's a hard headshot if there ever was one. Most such shots would just immobilize them for a while unless followed up with ground teams cutting off the Titan's neck. That isn't feasible unless all or most of the Titans are down, which isn't an easy scenario to achieve at all.
Also, that makes me wonder about the thing people say about wolverine: if you cut his arm off, does it grow into another wolverine? Apply on Titans.

I get that, if there was a universe like this, that mobile units would absolutely required.  However, I question how the units are manufactured, were came up with, and were introduced in the first place. 

They explain they've been complacent for the last 100 years.  How does this not effect the gas propelled units and surgically sharp sword blades?  They could come up with that, but not a more effective cannon system or delivery system?  How do they manufacture these surgically sharp blades at any decent rate?  A black smith could may make those, but the way that you can go through them suggests you would need mass manufacturing.  The gas propelled units also seem like something that's a little too smooth for some blacksmiths to hammer out.  How are they making these items?  I wouldn't mind this point if they just explained with a plausible solution.

I'd argue that there is no better cannon delivery system. Also, 'why do they have the technology they do and not something else' is a question equally applicable on reality.
Odds are methods of production will pop up later as the focus of the show shifts inwards to Wall Sina. We'll see. I don't think introduction and conception are necessary or even helpful to the show. Crown-controlled mass manufacturing, however, strikes me as a plausible theory. Remember that these guys have muskets.

And I just cant stop misreading 'mobile units' as 'mobile suits'.

Here's a place where cannons between rails can be switched.
Well Sh*t. And here I was trying to be clever. That's a One-hit KO if I ever saw one.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on June 24, 2013, 08:19:20 PM
12:

Judging from this episode, I think I can assume a few points: the regeneration of limbs or any part of the body (for that matter) depends purely on the controller's will. Jaeger was able to control his titan form because he wanted to see Armin's world so badly. This time, he isn't regenerating because he's stuck in his little world of "why bother". Now, why this is problem now of all time, I'm not sure. In fact, it's puzzling. But at least I know that regeneration is based on controller's will.

And it's interesting to see how different people take the situation on Jaeger's failed operation, especially on the emphasis of the deaths of those who tried to execute Pixie's plan.

You know one thing this show definitely doesn't need? THE OPENING SEQUENCE. Seriously, we do not need to know what age this story is in every episode...
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on June 24, 2013, 08:28:05 PM
They're not siblings.

It's the "not related by blood" excuse, don't fall for it dude
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on June 25, 2013, 01:30:09 AM
It's the "not related by blood" excuse, don't fall for it dude

What are you talking about? They're not real siblings; Jaeger's late father just took her into his family when she was a child.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on June 25, 2013, 02:43:22 AM
Guess I'd better stop joking around

I know they're not actually blood related, but they were raised together and think of each other as family. That's how I'd prefer things to stay. I think Eren at least would see any romance as a violation of that familial bond, creating low-grade drama. That would be where the 'sibling romance shenanigans' begin, which I think have no place in Shingeki no Kyojin. This is also where the fact that they are not blood related can become an excuse to avoid incest problems.

I disagree with a Mikasa/Eren romance for the same reason that people see the "not related by blood" excuse as a cop-out in series involving sibling romance; based on the way these characters have acted around each other, I would say that they are siblings in every way but biologically. As a matter of fact, I feel that Mikasa and Eren have one of the more interesting brother-sister dynamics I've seen in anime, despite not actually being related.

So yeah. If you ask me, or either character for that matter, the two of them are brother and sister. The DNA is just a secondary detail.     
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Shadowmage on June 29, 2013, 07:20:28 PM
13

Well, that ended with a bang.   Typically a shounen action series requires 13 episodes of dead space build up for one well animated fight sequence, but Attack on Titan seems to require 4.   
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on June 29, 2013, 08:29:52 PM
13:

What?  Am I dreaming?  Did the show actually end a battle?  For actually letting the action happen, the show drastically improved.  They didn't wax and wane on the nature of human dread for once.  Bravo, I haven't enjoyed myself with this show in a while.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: FuurinKazan on June 30, 2013, 12:39:42 AM
13.

Best episode in a while. Unfortunately, according to the preview, we're going to have the obligatory recap episode next week. Episode 15 will probably cover the preparations for retaking Wall Maria, so it will probably be a few episodes before we see more action again, sadly.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on July 01, 2013, 01:37:43 AM
13:

Bitchin'...

They didn't give us much of a happy ending on that, either, which is great.  Remember, this world SUCKS.  Even victory sucks.  Awesome.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on July 01, 2013, 06:54:42 AM
13:

While everyone in Attack of Titan is dreading over the casualties, I dread over the possibility of a recap episode next week...
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on July 01, 2013, 09:07:08 AM
The pacing has got slower and slower, and the recap part of the episode has got longer and longer, how long will it be before it's the length of a One Piece recap? It's getting there rapidly, this one was 2.5 minutes.

This is really becoming a problem.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on July 01, 2013, 09:12:06 AM
The pacing has got slower and slower, and the recap part of the episode has got longer and longer, how long will it be before it's the length of a One Piece recap? It's getting there rapidly, this one was 2.5 minutes.

This is really becoming a problem.

When an anime goes actual mainstream, this is what happens.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on July 01, 2013, 09:35:07 AM
13:

I'm actually starting to like this show again now that it's being more balanced with the grimdark angsts, and I'm started to get used to the slow pacing. Perhaps I'm more inclined to accept the slow pacing as it is because I was never too into the story to begin with.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on July 01, 2013, 11:09:02 AM
Hehe, I just realized, Attack on Titan has post-Arabasta arc One Piece pacing.  Roughly 1 to 1.5 chapters per episode. :)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on July 01, 2013, 11:59:42 AM
Wait.....

The chapters were this slow?  So not only is the show's pacing screwed up, but the manga is also holding off the inevitable?  That explains a lot!
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on July 01, 2013, 12:40:03 PM
To be fair, it's a monthly comic with 40 pages per chapter, so not quite comparable to the pacing of the One Piece animeŚwhich stretches out 20 page chapters into 20 minute episodes. So in this case it really is just the fault of the source material and the anime merely remaining faithful.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Hokuto_Spirit on July 02, 2013, 10:56:56 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/15PaSRj.jpg)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on July 03, 2013, 12:21:05 AM
@Hokuto

I'm not understanding the criticism. You've basically given a colored summary of the series so far.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on July 03, 2013, 07:48:55 AM
Less colored summary, more distinct hate for all of the tropes that the show relies on sometimes.  I've watched the show and read the manga and I can say that this guy would hate some of the stuff the manga pulls later. 

Also, Mikasa's Mary Sue status is thankfully subdued later.  She's still naturally talented, but the plot actually tries to get moving.  The result is that we see her less and we see all of the other characters doing things more.  This comes along with some twists that come out of no where.  Get ready for some major surprises with little little to no previous hints!  Things aren't said and done in the show yet.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Hokuto_Spirit on July 03, 2013, 11:38:42 AM
@Hokuto

I'm not understanding the criticism. You've basically given a colored summary of the series so far.

I found it humorous, not critical. Expecting thoughtful criticism from 4chan is too much.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on July 03, 2013, 12:52:05 PM
It's just a solid joke on a bunch of the "structure" between SAO & SnK being similar.  Though a bunch of those SAO points happened in the 2nd cour, and we know SnK has some wacky twists up its sleeve still.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on July 03, 2013, 01:12:14 PM
Ah, silly me.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on July 03, 2013, 02:04:44 PM
Arguably, even if it is a bit extreme, many of those points could apply to this show.  I get the joke part, but I can also see how some of the points could be taken at face value.  Mikasa also is blatantly a mary sue character until later in the show. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on July 03, 2013, 03:59:41 PM
I really wish people would stop using terms like Mary Sue when they don't know what they actually mean.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Zeitgeist on July 03, 2013, 05:25:44 PM
Not a Mary Sue? You may as well rename the term Mikasa-Sue-kasa. Ha. Random organic humor is funny. Any who, Mikasa is far from a Mary Sue. She is simply a capable character in a narrative where such a thing is scarce. For all her functionality she has her faults and is genuinely human.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on July 03, 2013, 08:56:14 PM
She does have her faults, but the show seems to gloss over them or focus too much on them through the use of the ability to slow down actual time to a crawl.  By the time the plot gets moving, it's not nearly as bad.  It feels a lot more dynamic and you feel like the show isn't focusing on the same three characters over and over again.

If I had to peg it down, she's way too competent in the beginning.  She aces nearly every challenge, shows a tiny bit of weakness when Eren first turns into a titan, and is pretty close to perfectly fine after that.  Her lack of skills is only evident when we see the best of the soldiers in charge of exploring outside the walls.  However, the show hasn't even reached that yet and the plot will move at a glacial pace until more characters introduced.  So, as it stands, she's not nearly as bad as of 40 chapters in the manga.  However, for what we've seen in the show, she's too talented.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on July 08, 2013, 04:26:44 PM
So, with about a week to go, the tracking has Disc 1, between both formats, at 70.5k at the moment, with the BluRay holding steady around #3 on the daily seller for the last 2 days.  If we assume a 20% bound, that puts it somewhere between 56k and 85k discs for volume 1.  This is also known as "how to pay off the production costs on Day 1".   (I'm assuming there's going to be a pretty heavy fall off after that, but a 40k+ series average, over a 2 cours show, would be pretty nuts.)

With the rate at which the Manga is selling, still, SnK is probably going to be the most "profitable" Anime run of the last decade.  The anime is going to, likely, vault SnK to the #2 Manga sales for the year, as there is still volume 11 to come out in August.   This is easily far more than the production committee hoped for.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on July 11, 2013, 06:20:22 AM
It's too bad that the manga is slow to release chapters and the plot has moments where it moves at a glacier's pace.  I mean, I like the manga quite a bit, but I feel like it's gone off the deep end and has had so many twists, I wonder where it's actually going.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on July 21, 2013, 08:03:45 AM
15:

My friend said it best: "ATTACK ON HANJI".
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on July 29, 2013, 12:02:34 PM
16:

The more Shingeki no Kyojin veers into straight-up shounen territory without any false pretenses of being dark or deep, the more I actually like watching it.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on July 29, 2013, 08:04:00 PM
16:

I'm sorry but I can't feel anything for Marco, given I don't really know or remember anything about him when he was alive. Are we even supposed to feel for his demise? And yes, joining the Recon is pretty much a death wish.

Above all, I am also wondering what Erwin is actually thinking by announcing Eren's secret basement. Of course, he wants to know the secret behind the Titan's origins, but more importantly, what does he plan to do once he learns about it?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Zeitgeist on July 29, 2013, 09:47:27 PM
Don't think you're supposed to give a shit about Marco. If you were...they missed completely. It is more that the characters, or at least Jean, gave a shit. The fact that his death had an impact and was a catalyst bla bla bla.

Did they mention if Erwin was planning a coup? If they haven't I had the strangest certainty that that was the plot line while watching this episode. No idea where the idea came from, but, for some reason it was just in my mind, axiomatically,  as though stated by the show itself.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on July 31, 2013, 12:38:29 PM
The show isn't exactly going to take the path to a sane story, guys.  Get ready for some crazy stuff.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on July 31, 2013, 10:52:05 PM
I am extremely concerned with how this show will be ending. Will it just be a cliffhanger? Will they just make stuff up? (doubtful because the author is working with the anime team closely). Or will they just never finish the anime.

I have the same concern with the hxh anime. While both are good...if we don't get a conclusion to the manga soon, they will be hung out to dry and dwindle into nothingness.

Personally I'd rather they make up an ending than just leave things unresolved. Yes it's possible to get a second season but unless the manga finishes itself up soon, even that's not going to give a proper conclusion.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on July 31, 2013, 11:53:07 PM
I will bet both my testicles that we'll get another season eventually.  Shit is selling WAY too well to not make more.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on August 01, 2013, 02:10:56 AM
Supposedly there is a solid stopping point (i.e. likely the end of this upcoming arc), as they're going through the Manga very slowly.  It'll take at least another year before they have enough content for 2 cours, though.   It's a Monthly Manga, but even at longer chapters, it's still producing at 1/2 the rate of a weekly.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on August 01, 2013, 03:52:44 AM
Well I think another season is fine and all, I'm not really concerned about that. I'm concerned about afterwards really, as like you said the manga is being produced rather slowly.

Now if the manga can finish itself up soon, then groovy problem is solved. I'd just hate to see another Berserk if you get my drift. I was thinking they could possibly make movies after a second season though, that wouldn't be so bad if you ask me.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on August 01, 2013, 08:42:27 AM
Hyper, don't expect a finish any time soon.  The manga isn't really even close to a solid conclusion.  Not only is the release slow, but the plot moves at the pace of a glacier.  This anime will end the season with a cliff hanger for sure. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on August 01, 2013, 03:22:29 PM
15: I get the feeling that, halfway through the very probable second season, I'm going to stop and ask myself why I'm watching this show, and I won't find a good answer for it. A lot of fantasy sagas end up in a place where they make internal sense, have decent, atypical plots, but just fail to engage me since I find no answer to the questions "Whats the point of this show?" and "Why do I give a s**t?" Titan's characterization and world building just don't make the cut.

Eren has been a bit of a doormat these past few episodes, as if the events of the past few episodes have sapped his drive. Its probably just a consequence of being in the military, but that didn't seem to do much to him in the training arc. Being tried just screwed him up completely. I'd like to believe it was the notion of humanity turning against itself that did it, but once again, he raeged a bit in the training arc and got over it.
Its not that I'm saying it doesnt make sense; its just that I liked Eren shouty and nuts since he ultimately was a symbol of mankind's fury. Turns out now that he's pretty stone-cold rational. Ego doesn't seem to play much of a part in his decisions. What a guy.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on August 01, 2013, 03:54:25 PM
Hyper, don't expect a finish any time soon.  The manga isn't really even close to a solid conclusion.  Not only is the release slow, but the plot moves at the pace of a glacier.  This anime will end the season with a cliff hanger for sure.

Welp I might have to drop it if that's the case. When I was younger I could tolerate that, but not these days.

I'll wait and see of course. If it takes forever to finish then I'll just lose interest. It'd be funny if it turned out like initial D though.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on August 01, 2013, 06:23:36 PM
I'll say this: The plot seems like it knows where it's going.  However, it's heading there with the weirdest twists and is taking it's sweet time to make every event last longer than it should.  It's all the movement of a one piece chapter with around double the pages and a monthly release.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on August 03, 2013, 06:12:30 PM
17:

Okay, well that episode was very interesting. I predicted two things then, and eventually unable to contain myself I had a look to see if I was right.
I was right about both

Well, I hate implicit spoilers as much as blunt ones, (things like saying "Oh, just wait until this episode" etc.) as anyone that's got some intelligence would work it out and be spoiled, it happens to me sometimes. So anyway...

Good paced episode, and it is really building up the interest. I for one am incredibly interested about what the "final boss" will be, so to speak. Then again I'm afraid of bad writing, so maybe I'd be better off not knowing until it comes up.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on August 03, 2013, 08:13:55 PM
17:

Now this is a very interesting episode. I was wondering just how the Recce team does their expeditions, especially when there isn't any good mode of communication between in open fields and the terrain is completely at their disadvantage.

Maybe I'm just thinking too much, but:

is the female Titan one of the main cast (i.e. Annie Leonhardt)? In fact, maybe it is her, judging from the behavioral observation. She has been out of the picture for some time...
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on August 03, 2013, 10:32:15 PM
17:

Alright! I'm pumped for the next episode for the first time since very near the beginning of this show. The human radar system is genius, and it's also an example of the deep thought put into the setting that I've been missing lately.

And of course that female titan is intriguing. I think this is a great direction we're headed in.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on August 11, 2013, 01:28:03 AM
18:

(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n256/animanic_critic/gg_Shingeki_no_Kyojin_-_18_82E15C2Bmkv_snapshot_0726_20130811_160845.jpg)

Shingeki's very own "HNNNNGH" moment.

It's engrossing to see how the whole formation ironically fell into place out each section's individual assessment of the current situation, even when it's not the original plan and they have no idea what the other sections are thinking. However, I'm curious about a few things:

The ones who spotted the female Titan are the left section. By luring them into the forest and then stay put on the circumference, knowing that the female Titan attracts other titans to follow suit, is the section (or perhaps the leader) thinking of intentionally luring the female Titan into the middle section, or are they simply trying to keep the formation intact? Is maintaining the formation more important than luring the female Titan away from Eren and the middle section, even if it means breaking the formation? I mean, the whole left section including Armin already knew she's going for Eren, right?

Like I said, this is engrossing stuff.

edit:

With the female Titan running up to the formation like that, is anyone reminded of T1000 from Judgment Day?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on August 17, 2013, 01:56:21 PM
18: You know, I think I finally understand what I DON'T like about this series. It plays out EXACTLY like a Fire Emblem game, in a bad way. Anyone care to try to understand what I mean by that?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on August 17, 2013, 02:58:51 PM
18: You know, I think I finally understand what I DON'T like about this series. It plays out EXACTLY like a Fire Emblem game, in a bad way. Anyone care to try to understand what I mean by that?

Holy shit. This... holy shit. I could practically write a book on the similarities between this and elements from FE games. Monsters(Sacred Stones), Permadeath but with Immortal MC as a story cushion, an epic "I'll change the world" mentality, emphasis on a small band of characters and their rationalisations of war, the band of mercenaries established after the origins arc, dumb, fat, sweaty and lazily written aristocrat merchants/nobles. There's much, much more too, but I don't feel like searching my FE games for similarities.

Despite that, I think that most fantasy shows, books and games could be construed to be like others in a post. I think the biggest cause for the feeling that these two are similar here are backgrounds that are gorgeous, but generally unimpressive; they don't unnerve you like the Geofront or the weird stone monuments in SSY, and don't evoke much emotion like Hoshi no Koe. I think the best piece of art in all of Kyojin so far was the one shot of blue flowers in the field outside the walls, waaay back in episode one, if you remember it.
A lot of the time, detail comes at the expense of impression. (This is all just my general bias against treating detailed drawing in anime  as an end in itself speaking by the way.)

However, Kiniest, you'll have to admit that Fire Emblem (regrettably, rather rarely) took risks with its story structure in ways with genuinely screwed with you, like in the transition from Path of Radiance to Radiant Dawn when
you realise that your actions in Path of Radiance were ultimately hijacked, exploited and the cause of great suffering and whatnot. And the confrontation between Ike and Micaiah. Who could forget that. Though its a shame how that turns out.
So you can't really accuse Fire Emblem of being tame, unsurprising and predictable.
Also, the dialogue in Titan isn't like Fire Emblem at all IMO.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on September 02, 2013, 05:09:23 PM
21: Melodrama, but it worked. My eyes were peeled open with Mikasa near the end. It may have just been the incredible choreography of the scene that got to me, though. Why aren't we saying anything about this series, anymore, again? Have we all just given up on it?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on September 02, 2013, 05:56:38 PM
Because the pacing has been so god damn slow that there's not really that much to comment on episode by episode. Also what you can say about each episode is pretty much the same:
1) The pacing sucks, especially considering the amount of recap time
2) The plot is fairly interesting although I'm pretty sure I worked out the identity of two Titans a month ago and waiting for confirmation is getting tedious.
3) The action is nice when it actually occurs.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on September 02, 2013, 09:58:30 PM
Not saying anything anymore because I'm just watching the show and waiting to see where it goes.  At this point, an episode by episode analysis is not really going to do anything, especially with the plot moving along at a deliberate pace.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 03, 2013, 03:36:43 PM
21:

I love this show again.

When Levi's crew got to show their chops, I was impressed and for a moment I honestly thought some of them would survive. Their deaths were brutal, and when Eren finally transformed I felt his roar in my bones. The fighting was glorious, and in particular I love that while Eren managed to surprise the female titan, Mikasa's assault provoked some genuine fear. This is some of the best action I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrows Neptune on September 04, 2013, 12:11:52 AM
21:

As always the gruesome ways people get killed by the titans make me laugh, like that one guy suddenly getting chomped on, and the brawl between Eren and Fem-titan was exciting, so this was a good episode.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 07, 2013, 11:09:04 PM
22:

Wow. The attention to detail that the show possesses just took a turn for the morbid in showing exactly what happened when those people died. Tying it back to the first episode was a smooth move as well. This show is just balling.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ShadowpulseKDH on September 08, 2013, 01:27:40 PM
22:

One of the saddest episodes of the show in my opinion. But, the Mikaza/Levi executive badass team made me so hyped. Any anime that can provoke genuine emotions from me is great in my books.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on September 10, 2013, 05:21:02 AM
21:

That was intense.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Thot on September 14, 2013, 07:52:55 PM
23:

I remember the reveal feeling more intense in the manga, but that may just be due to already knowing what would happen this time around.
It's certainly still very well done, in any case.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 15, 2013, 03:42:45 AM
23:

OH.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on September 15, 2013, 04:02:27 AM
23:

Finally, something actually happened, I was getting really bored of SnK until now. The way Armin worked it out.... it reminds me of a Gary Larson cartoon, there's a woman at a police line up, trying to identify the culprit, all of them are men apart from one giant 3 eyed mammoth with a silly hat. She points to the mammoth and says "That's him, I'd recognize that silly hat anywhere!".

In any case, it was so obvious. What I want to know is when they'll confirm my other prediction.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on September 16, 2013, 06:03:52 AM
22 & 23:

17:

Maybe I'm just thinking too much, but:

is the female Titan one of the main cast (i.e. Annie Leonhardt)? In fact, maybe it is her, judging from the behavioral observation. She has been out of the picture for some time...

Oh I called this shot WAY ahead of the storyline... way to go with the revelation there, SnK.

I find Captain Levi single-handedly rescuing Eren from Titan Annie preposterous. The whole expedition revolved around just how tough she is to beat, yet he comes out of nowhere and does something almost half the expedition team couldn't even do. That's gross deus ex machina, and in fact, it felt like poor writing that resorted to a quick fix to keep the story running.

Perhaps episode 23 is a step back towards the right direction. I'm more interested to know Annie's real motives rather than seeing her trash the entire town.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on September 16, 2013, 09:18:05 AM
I thought it was made clear that she was really tired from all the combat which provided a window of opportunity. And it's not like he killed her, the group earlier did manage to momentarily bring her down as well, but that was nowhere near enough to actually kill her. Levi did decide to run away here as well.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 16, 2013, 11:31:14 AM
@AC

I don't think that's a fair sentiment. The female titan has never been an invincible threat; she's been outwitted several times, and outplayed (if only briefly) by Reiner, Mikasa, and Levi's squad.

Rescuing Eren is not that difficult once you take out the eyes, and even Levi's squad managed to do that. But then they tried to kill the titan, which is why they failed. Levi has been repeatedly hyped as the strongest human by far, limits himself to rescuing Eren instead of killing, is working with Mikasa, and like Reckoner said, by now the female titan is tired and was just brutalized by Mikasa. If Levi had actually killed the titan I might begin to agree with you, but otherwise the odds are stacked in his favor. And actually, despite all that, he still had his ankle broken.

A last thing, the fact that half the squad couldn't do this is something Erwin talked about. It was something along the lines of "In the recon corps, 90% die, and the remaining 10% become elites soldiers with very high survival rates".   

Just out of curiosity, what were you expecting to happen? 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on September 17, 2013, 06:02:27 AM
I was simply hoping that the whole Operation Save Eren had taken a little bit more time. It's the pacing that kinda got me thinking it was too fast and simply. Yes, Levi did injure his ankle but I can blame that on Mikasa getting distracted.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on September 17, 2013, 07:42:52 AM
AC, I think it's more that you are so accustomed to the drudging pace of SnK that when they had a scene with reasonable pacing it came as a complete shock.

If the entire show had the pacing of that scene then it would be much better. I'd give it 2 ratings higher.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Garuda on September 20, 2013, 04:16:01 AM
This is the same problem I mentioned before while watching High School of the Dead and Battlestar Galactica's relaunch.  Once the main "enemy" is no longer an issue, the writer has to find something else to dominate the landscape.  In the two shows I am mentioning, the writers turn towards how much humans suck, especially in a chaotic situation or a crisis.

Sorry for being a little late... I see what you meant, and I would be in some sense agree. But I can't help but be embarrassed to compare SnK with a masterpiece like BSG. In the latter, it was always about humans, the Cylons were only "formal" enemies, while in substance, the show was an odyssey about mankind. Even the Cylons, they were used directly in this thought, and enabled to raise questions about what truly defines humanity. A bit like the Bakenezumis in Shinsekai Yori. Besides, the issue of fear and dissensions between humans is much more important and better dealed with in BSG.

21-22-23 :  Concerning Eren's rescue, I think Levi could have finished the job with Mikasa, by capturing Annie, or killing her. She was tired, and I don't understand why he chose to retreat when it was the moment to terminate the job. But it could have been done before. The fight between Annie and Eren was exciting, the action was beautiful, but he could have finished her more than once when he was in mount position. But obviously, he wasn't aware about the fact that he has elbows too, and that they are more damaging than his hands  :D

Episode 23 was interesting. The revelation was predictable, but I don't think it's a problem. What matters wasn't the identity of the female Titan itself, but what it implies. And with Annie being a Titan, it raises a lot of questions about her motives and what happened to her. New prospects like that can be nothing but good for the show. It also seems like politics or government intrigues may play a role.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ShadowpulseKDH on September 21, 2013, 06:47:35 PM
24:

.....I hate this show.


I hate it for how much it makes me love it and then ends off with the hypest of cliffhangers.  Even the post-credits showed NOTHING.  SOA/AOT is the biggest of teases.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on September 21, 2013, 07:34:13 PM
So next episode will probably leave us with some silly code geass season 1 cliffhanger eh?

It was an alright show I guess. Weak characters but nice action. It ended up being less enjoyable than Claymore because of that for me. Clair and Eren are pretty similar, but Clair is a little more well rounded in terms of characterization.

I feel like this series lacks the true sense of survival and struggle that infinite ryvius brought us, but also wasn't as fun to watch as a straight up shounen show (like hxh). The directing however did deserve some praise.

I'm only making closing thoughts now because I doubt anything will be wrapped up next week really. Plus season 2 won't happen for a long time (in which case I'll lose interest).
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on September 21, 2013, 08:42:02 PM
Claymore also has the single best transition to ever be put into an anime & one of the best all-time.  The Over-Under-Cross Continental-Crash Zoom.

AoT actually lost me a while ago, though I keep up via reviews.  (Mostly so I can keep up with discussions)  I can appreciate why it's popular, but it's just a bit too much.  I like a little more subtlety to my presentation, if it's going to be serious.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on September 21, 2013, 08:56:58 PM
Subtlety was lost unfortunately the second they decided to rain Eren's mothers blood all over the screen for dramatic effect in episode 1.

What is this, Jojo?

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on September 21, 2013, 09:02:47 PM
Subtlety was lost unfortunately the second they decided to rain Eren's mothers blood all over the screen for dramatic effect in episode 1.

What is this, Jojo?

But Jojo's doesn't take itself too seriously.  It's Over the Top in a way few things even attempt to be.  Not to mention the most ripped 12 year olds to ever be put in an anime.

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Your Anti-Moe.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on September 21, 2013, 09:06:01 PM
Subtlety was lost unfortunately the second they decided to rain Eren's mothers blood all over the screen for dramatic effect in episode 1.

What is this, Jojo?

But Jojo's doesn't take itself too seriously.  It's Over the Top in a way few things even attempt to be.  Not to mention the most ripped 12 year olds to ever be put in an anime.

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Your Anti-Moe.

Trust me I'm aware. Jojo is my favorite show of this year/last year haha.

That's my problem like you. Shingeki takes itself too seriously...but doesn't present itself in a mature enough fashion. Basically it sucks out the fun while also killing a lot of the possible immersion.

Basically it needed to be more Kaiji/Akagi ish. Over the top of course, but plenty of mild moments when need be.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 22, 2013, 01:25:02 AM
24:

This budget is too strong. This is the most amazing looking episode I've seen all year.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: XRavsterX on September 24, 2013, 07:10:47 PM
24:

Wow wow wow - this anime clearly went with the angry eyes heavily this episode. Mikasa... that crazy professor chick... Armin... Erwin... Eren. All of them had some crazy mother******* eyes at some point.

It was an all right episode - but Eren is such a little bitch sometimes. He is single-handedly ruining this series for me. Don't get me wrong, it's not like this series is without its flaws, but Eren isn't doing it any favours.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on September 28, 2013, 04:33:52 PM
25: Why is Eren the main character again? And why is he on fire? Is this Gurren Lagann or something?

Anyway fun show with good action and...yeah that's about it. The characters and story weren't great but has it's moments of intrigue. Eren being a completely unbearable main lead doesn't help matters much, nor does the completely over the top nature taking itself completely seriously at all times. It's kind of like watching Jojo if it was completely dead serious at all times, it takes a lot of the fun out.

Basically my initial problems still stand. If you want to watch a series about a bunch of "monsters" making others live in an oppressed fashion, then watch Shin Sekai Yori. But otherwise watch it for the cool fights and that's about it 6/10
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 28, 2013, 06:56:15 PM
25:

Good way to end the season.

Attack on Titan was very exciting for the first and last 30%. It looks and sounds amazing, and the Titans are the best mook enemies in any series. Overall, AoT was a rollercoaster ride, if not particularly profound, and I'd give this the weakest of 9's.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Garuda on September 29, 2013, 03:36:13 AM
My final thoughts :

Pros :

- Some action scenes, visuals and musics are very good. Overall, the production values are pleasant, despite a lot of "static shots", at least during the first part.
- The show has an interesting story and setting
- Some epic or hype moments which are very enjoyable or entertaining

Cons :

- A lack of subtlety, the show relies a lot on tropes, scenaristic tricks or coincidences. It might also look artificial.
- The coherence of various decisions, actions, events is contestable.
- You can feel a discrepancy between the very "sh˘nen-like" spirit of the show, and the seriousness it tries to have

7/10 for me, but it definitely had some real potential. I feel SnK could have been like Gurren Lagann or FMA if it had chosen only one commitment : Being very hype or a great and well-written quest, both with interesting developments by focusing on a sole aspect, without the other to interfere.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on September 29, 2013, 06:01:28 AM
25:

Good way to end the season.

Attack on Titan was very exciting for the first and last 30%. It looks and sounds amazing, and the Titans are the best mook enemies in any series. Overall, AoT was a rollercoaster ride, if not particularly profound, and I'd give this the weakest of 9's.

And you still haven't watched Shinsekai Yori. :/

Anyways, I haven't quite finished the series yet, but it's probably looking at a weak 7 from me. Sure, it's got an interesting plotline and nice style, but it DOES take itself too seriously and attempts to get philosophical at times when the philosophy has very little relevance to the actual storyline or theme. For example, when Armin and Annie talk in episode 23, they have a philosophical descussion about the perception of what a good or bad person is to someone, which is interesting, but has very little relevance to the general theme, save the fact Annie has tricked them about her identity as the female titan, which shouldn't really be a theme of symbolism, to be very honest with you. I kind of wish the general populace would pick up something like, say, OreGairu, or Uchouten Kazoku.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on September 29, 2013, 07:49:36 AM
Kiniest, shows like Uchouten Kazoku are too subtle for most people. 

A lot of people watch anime for that certain thing they like, whether it's moe girls with some light comedy or something full of action like Shingeki no Kyojin.  Shows like Uchouten tend to scare people away due to a lack of something to grab on to.  So much of the show is shrouded in mystery or is lightly spoken about by the characters.

Don't get me wrong either. I adore Uchouten with a passion.  However, I can also see that most people watch to turn their brain off or not think nearly as much as they have to elsewhere in life.  That sadly makes Uchouten a confusing or frustrating show to some people.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on September 29, 2013, 08:09:05 AM
If it hadn't been for the atrocious pacing I would have probably given it an 8.

I am giving it a 6.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on September 29, 2013, 11:20:01 AM
Kiniest, shows like Uchouten Kazoku are too subtle for most people. 

A lot of people watch anime for that certain thing they like, whether it's moe girls with some light comedy or something full of action like Shingeki no Kyojin.  Shows like Uchouten tend to scare people away due to a lack of something to grab on to.  So much of the show is shrouded in mystery or is lightly spoken about by the characters.

Don't get me wrong either. I adore Uchouten with a passion.  However, I can also see that most people watch to turn their brain off or not think nearly as much as they have to elsewhere in life.  That sadly makes Uchouten a confusing or frustrating show to some people.

Man what is it with this forum and this continual obsession with the concept of subtlety.  I see that word tossed around like it's the holy grail of making a good anime or something and that anything that isn't deemed subtle is somehow made lesser.  I'm kind of starting to find it a little ridiculous to be honest and kind of pretentious.

Personally I prefer this show to Uchouten hands down because it's actually fun for me to watch episode in and episode out while the later where I dropped it was slow as molasses, uneventful and just kind of weird with unclear themes and maybe one interesting plot thread that the show kept so close to it's chest it caused me to lose interest holding out for it to play the damn card already.  That's why it's nice to have a show like Titan sometimes where the purpose is clear from the beginning, cool characters, hot blooded action and high intensity situations against literally larger than life foes and it frequently delivers on what fans expect of it.  Frankly this is something that the anime industry could be doing more often and is obviously in high demand but it doesn't for whatever reason because I guess it's hard to just make a show that is good old fashioned fun and entertaining to watch and doesn't have some weird and blatant otaku pandering angle.

Frankly I find Uchouten Kazoku highly overvalued around these parts and can't understand why it's even being mentioned in a thread about Attack on Titan and sorry but just because I and others can't value Uchouten Kazoku's pitch perfect subtlety (maybe I just don't care cause the show is dull to me anyway despite a premise that reads as interesting on paper) or whatever does not mean that I'm somehow unable to appreciate it's object subtle greatness or whatever and have to fall back on the oh so unsubtle Titan.  It's a matter of what people actually find interesting period.  Maybe it's time for some people to consider that the be all end of all of a good anime is not how subtle a show is but how it goes about getting people interested and willing to stick with a show and that Uchouten Kazoku is not as objectively great as some people around here think it is and clearly failed on that front.

And you know personally I love being challenged by the material I'm watching and having to think about what I'm seeing because if I'm thinking about what I'm watching I'm involved in the show, but to be brutally honest Uchouten Kazoku failed miserably on that front and I'd even argue Titan does a better job at making me consider what is happening in any given episode than Uchouten Kazoku ever did.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: thanosmat on September 29, 2013, 11:40:42 AM
Quote
Maybe it's time for some people to consider that the be all end of all of a good anime is not how subtle a show is but how it goes about getting people interested and willing to stick with a show and that Uchouten Kazoku is not as objectively great as some people around here think it is and clearly failed on that front.

This is your definition of what makes a good anime. For me and for others this is not necessarily the best definition.

And why Uchouten Kazoku failed in that front? Where'd you get that?

And I haven't seen anyone say that Uchouten Kazoku is good only because it is subtle.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on September 29, 2013, 11:50:35 AM
Quote
Maybe it's time for some people to consider that the be all end of all of a good anime is not how subtle a show is but how it goes about getting people interested and willing to stick with a show and that Uchouten Kazoku is not as objectively great as some people around here think it is and clearly failed on that front.

This is your definition of what makes a good anime. For me and for others this is not necessarily the best definition.

And why Uchouten Kazoku failed in that front? Where'd you get that?

And I haven't seen anyone say that Uchouten Kazoku is good only because it is subtle.

I think being consistently interesting to people is a good place to start. 

As for the show that's not in the title of this thread I keep seeing the word subtle bandied around as one of it's specific higher qualities.  I'm sure it's not the only reason that people that like it do, but it sure is the most obvious and frequently stated reason as stated by people on this forum.  It's not the only show though, I see the subtlety thing tossed out a lot for a lot of shows around these parts lately and it's like subtle=good, not subtle=poor or something when I don't think it's as simple as that or it's possible to define subtlety as objectively as some people seem to think it can be.  I'm honestly more curious to figure out what some peoples IMO obsession with the pursuit of subtlety in anime is than anything to do with what they think about any specific anime though if I failed to make that clear in my first post.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on September 29, 2013, 11:53:12 AM
Uchouten aside, I think a major problem is that anime need a solid hook from the first episode to be popular, which I think is a great shame. It severely limits the ways in which someone can write an anime.

In any case, I really wish SnK had decent pacing, it would have been so much better with decent pacing.

Also, so the Walls are made from Titans? Interesting....
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: thanosmat on September 29, 2013, 11:57:28 AM
Quote
I think being consistently interesting to people is a good place to start. 

But where did you get that is not interesting to people? That's not what I noticed.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 29, 2013, 12:13:49 PM
I think highly of both Attack on Titan and Uchouten Kazoku, and I'd give both 9; but Uchouten Kazoku gets a much more wholehearted score. I honestly enjoyed the latter more. With regards to subtlety, it can take many forms, but generally means doing more with less; making smaller and more mundane situations just as powerful as a fantastical situation, and making the viewer understand that much more is going on inside the character's heads and behind the scenes than what is explicitly shown. For a great example, read TIF's post about why the tanuki don't transform into flying things (If you say you caught that and thought it was obvious, you're lying). Or you can compare the reveal that
Annie is that female titan
versus the reveal regarding the frog in the well and his father. One of these scenes made me choke up, while the other just made me nod and think, yep I was right. There is basically no downside to subtlety, and it goes hand in hand with brilliance. Because of it's subtlety, for me Uchouten Kazoku is just as powerful emotionally as AoT, while being far superior in it's intellectual appeal.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on September 29, 2013, 12:45:52 PM
I think highly of both Attack on Titan and Uchouten Kazoku, and I'd give both 9; but Uchouten Kazoku gets a much more wholehearted score. I honestly enjoyed the latter more. With regards to subtlety, it can take many forms, but generally means doing more with less; making smaller and more mundane situations just as powerful as a fantastical situation, and making the viewer understand that much more is going on inside the character's heads and behind the scenes than what is explicitly shown. For a great example, read TIF's post about why the tanuki don't transform into flying things (If you say you caught that and thought it was obvious, you're lying). Or you can compare the reveal that
Annie is that female titan
versus the reveal regarding the frog in the well and his father. One of these scenes made me choke up, while the other just made me nod and think, yep I was right. There is basically no downside to subtlety, and it goes hand in hand with brilliance. Because of it's subtlety, for me Uchouten Kazoku is just as powerful emotionally as AoT, while being far superior in it's intellectual appeal.

Well sorry but I'll never understand or relate to peoples insistence that making the mundane interesting (something Uchouten Kazoku failed at for me) and subtetly is some sort of holy grail for making a good intellectually stimulating anime.  To me something like LOGH accomplishes this and is capable of a multitude of tones ranging from peoples beloved subtlety to grandiose and operatic.  Silver Spoon accomplishes this as well and I suppose is subtle as well in many scenes.  Uchouten Kazoku is just boring and vague but could have been interesting on a cultural mythology level yet for some reason isn't.   Instead as you say it seems to be going for that whole everyday mundane things meets the sort of but not really fantastical world of Tengu and Tanuki.  There's a real hipster edge to it imo.

So anyway I'd say there is a downside to subtlety and its when a show misses the mark by overshooting and just becoming a vague and unmeaningful experience which is where something like Uchouten Kazoku misses the mark in a game breaking way by my standards.  Also to me its appeal looked to be more sappy emotional than intellectual.

Quote
I think being consistently interesting to people is a good place to start. 

But where did you get that is not interesting to people? That's not what I noticed.

I meant Titan seems to be a lot more interesting to more people than Uchouten Kazoku was.  Now people are free to write this fact off as the slovenly masses being uninterested in a subtle or intellectual experience but I don't think that tells the whole story.  Maybe its something more like Uchouten Kazoku doesn't have nearly the pull on the intellectual crowd people seem to think it does.  I mean I loved Shin Sekai Yori, thought it was deliberately paced and made me think a lot even in its early going.  It was a very multifaceted show.   Uchouten Kazoku by comparison just felt like a trifle where I dropped it as if it had the building blocks of a solid off beat anime but refused to put start putting them together.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: thanosmat on September 29, 2013, 01:49:34 PM
Quote
I meant Titan seems to be a lot more interesting to more people than Uchouten Kazoku was.  Now people are free to write this fact off as the slovenly masses being uninterested in a subtle or intellectual experience but I don't think that tells the whole story.

This does not mean much. SnK is more watched than almost any other anime this year. By the criteria you defined above, every other anime is a bad anime.

I do not know if it's just me, but it seems that you can not accept (or understand) that people see Uchouten Kazoku as a good anime.

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on September 29, 2013, 01:59:40 PM
It's not like a show has to be subtle to be good. Jojo, Kaiji, Akagi, Chihayafuru etc can be quite over the top and not very subtle at times and they got good reviews.

It's all a matter of what a show is trying to be. Shingeki no Kyojin is trying to be this super serious show but has moments like Mikasa producing electricity and breaking the floorboards with her bear feet. It's just not really fitting for the tone of the show and how serious the characters are all trying to be. And it makes you wonder...what did that scene even accomplish? There are several moments like this in the show that just add nothing and do too much while breaking the audiences immersion.

So yeah being subtle or at least more mature would have helped here. I mean Clair in Claymore is just as angry as Eren (in regards to her mortal enemy) but it's not in your face constantly. It makes it hard to take the show seriously unfortunately.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 29, 2013, 02:11:42 PM
It is not that making the mundane powerful is good in and of itself. The point is that you can work with simple situations and still make powerful scenes, without being forced to rely on contrived, fantastic, or extreme circumstances. You can look at this in a couple ways: that a subtle show can match an unsubtle one in impact without relying on crutches like death, brutality, or exaggerated behavior; that the same scene, done with subtlety, becomes stronger; or that you can expect impact more frequently from a subtle show, because you don't have to wait for certain events like a main fight or character death. Subtlety is intellectually stimulating because it takes skill and finesse to apply; you could even say that a subtle scene is one with those two attributes. In addition, subtlety allows you to communicate more nuanced ideas, because your intent takes root in your viewer's mind and grows organically from there.   

A good example to clarify what I mean would be to compare death in AoT to Silver Spoon. The female titan slaughters four named characters, throwing the MC into turmoil. Meanwhile, Hachiken's pet pig finally goes to the slaughter, and somehow it's just as intense. How did that happen? Can you imagine what it would be like if four characters in silver spoon died?   

Here's another example of subtlety, purely from AoT. Petra's dad is talking to Levi about her. Levi doesn't crack, doesn't apologize, doesn't even say anything. He just makes a face and keeps walking. Instantly, possibilities flood your mind. Was there romantic tension between them? What were they to each other? Is Levi feeling guilty and thinking that he got her killed? Is he feeling responsible for destroying Petra's chances for a normal life? Is he questioning his own worthiness? Is he keeping quiet by choice, or is he constricted by pain? Because the scene was done subtly, the viewer can ponder all of these and more. An unsubtle scene, like when Eren screams his rage at the female titan and tells us exactly what is going through his mind, collapses the probability function, and so only one possibility remains; the one being spoon-fed to you.

Saying subtlety has a downside is like saying skill and finesse in an anime have downsides. They don't. As for missing the mark, understand that subtlety has nothing to do with vagueness or obfuscation. A subtle scene is clear, but not explicit. Meaning and intent are communicated implicitly, using images, atmosphere, and music, rather than through baldfaced dialogue.   

Subtlety has no downsides, but you could say it has limitations. There is a time and place for it, and a show can still be good without being subtle. But there really is no question that a subtle scene is a treat that makes a show more engrossing and enjoyable.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Thot on September 29, 2013, 02:53:50 PM
25:

Man was Eren ever channeling Goku there.
And I dunno, I don't see the problem with a show taking itself seriously and yet being over-the-top.

I'd rate SnK somewhere between a 7 and an 8.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on September 29, 2013, 02:58:10 PM
To be honest, Uchouten Kazoku was a very random example of what I find to be a better show. It may have been out of place, and a bit arrogant to say, but that's simply my feelings towards the issue. If you want better examples of what I wish was popular, I would throw out Shinsekai Yori and Chihayafuru. I can understand why SSY wouldn't apply to the populace, with its slow start, but I'm surprised not a single person (well, not really) from the anime club I used to go to mentioned Chihayafuru. They basically play Hetalia and Naruto because they think there aren't enough good anime out there, because they're afraid to actually try what isn't big name. Most of the kids think Hetalia is the prime example of comedy in anime because they're afraid to go out and try stuff no one else has, and then, when they try what other people haven't, they get mad that no one else has. I heard ImperialX mention that he was glad that the general populace's tastes have grown since the days of Naruto, but Death Note and Fullmetal Alchemist got very popular in those days. The populace's opinions haven't grown, Shingeki no Kyojin's just become popular over its novelty of giant titans brutally murdering people with an over-the-top style clouding the show. I'm willing to bet that the next show that becomes SnK popular is going to be something like Hetalia. Most of the kids who watch Free! that aren't female don't even understand that most of Free!'s appeal is in the fanservice. Similarly, they don't realize that the same applies to Hetalia and Black Butler in that they pander to fujoshis. People don't realize that there are a lot of great shows out there because they're too busy going with the flow. Similarly, they can't even tell what makes a show good because they can only rely on other's opinions to determine theirs. A lot of shows, and, well, a lot of everything gets ignored and canceled because of this. I mean, I get it's something that's useless to complain about, but it's something that aggravates me to no end.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on September 29, 2013, 03:36:28 PM
It's not like a show has to be subtle to be good. Jojo, Kaiji, Akagi, Chihayafuru etc can be quite over the top and not very subtle at times and they got good reviews.

It's all a matter of what a show is trying to be. Shingeki no Kyojin is trying to be this super serious show but has moments like Mikasa producing electricity and breaking the floorboards with her bear feet. It's just not really fitting for the tone of the show and how serious the characters are all trying to be. And it makes you wonder...what did that scene even accomplish? There are several moments like this in the show that just add nothing and do too much while breaking the audiences immersion.

So yeah being subtle or at least more mature would have helped here. I mean Clair in Claymore is just as angry as Eren (in regards to her mortal enemy) but it's not in your face constantly. It makes it hard to take the show seriously unfortunately.

That's more or less what I'm trying to say and agree there are times when Titan could realize that its okay to just have a conversation be a conversation.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on September 29, 2013, 03:41:14 PM
AoT has a lot of Haruhi to it.  It's big and popular, but it's going to fall away pretty quickly.   It's big & brash, but it's not a game changer series.  It's nice it was popular for people, but a lot like SAO, by next year it's going to be something of a novelty.   Though the series probably works better on a quick watch through.

But, also, let's not forget something: NHR is something of the "critic's respite" place.  We tend to value writing & characterization over other aspects of Anime.   That puts us against most mainstream trends.  (If there is a mainstream in Anime)  We obviously have some rolling discussions on certain topics, but we're pretty solidly outside of jumping on the "currently popular" trend.  Even if we still get most everything watched.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on September 29, 2013, 04:15:46 PM
AoT has a lot of Haruhi to it.  It's big and popular, but it's going to fall away pretty quickly.   It's big & brash, but it's not a game changer series.  It's nice it was popular for people, but a lot like SAO, by next year it's going to be something of a novelty.   Though the series probably works better on a quick watch through.

But, also, let's not forget something: NHR is something of the "critic's respite" place.  We tend to value writing & characterization over other aspects of Anime.   That puts us against most mainstream trends.  (If there is a mainstream in Anime)  We obviously have some rolling discussions on certain topics, but we're pretty solidly outside of jumping on the "currently popular" trend.  Even if we still get most everything watched.

Yeah, which is why I like this place a lot.

I will say Haruhi as a series was a novelty really, but the movie was really superb and something special.


But yes it's possible to be overly subtle. Such as Technoloyze and Serial Experiment Lain where it just becomes cryptic. Now I'm aware that a margin of people like those shows (like myself) but they are extremely difficult to recommend because of their unexciting nature.

Also the problem with being over the top but trying to take itself dead seriously is it's more difficult to sustain your disbelief mainly. Now this doesn't occur with everyone I'm sure, but for me it was hard to immerse myself in the show fully. It's kind of like playing a horror game that's trying to be scary by granting the character a giant megaton laser gun.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on September 29, 2013, 04:18:22 PM
But yes it's possible to be overly subtle. Such as Technoloyze and Serial Experiment Lain where it just becomes cryptic. Now I'm aware that a margin of people like those shows (like myself) but they are extremely difficult to recommend because of their unexciting nature.
I'd say a perfect exactly of subtlety gone wrong would be Red Data Girl.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 29, 2013, 04:32:21 PM
I'm a bit confused when people say "over-the-top". What are we talking about? Death Note epic pen scenes? Dragon Ball Z shouting? The muscles in Jojo?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on September 29, 2013, 04:48:32 PM
I'm a bit confused when people say "over-the-top". What are we talking about? Death Note epic pen scenes? Dragon Ball Z shouting? The muscles in Jojo?

Yeah those would be over the top. Most anime is over the top by default. I just think Titan went a little too far with it.

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on September 29, 2013, 05:07:19 PM
watch it for the cool fights and that's about it 6/10

I am giving it a 6.

Very glad there are people who are seeing through the hype. This series doesn't deserve a 7.

I also gave Shingeki no Kyojin a 6/10. It's sad that people will start recommending this show over Code Geass for new anime watchers now. Doesn't come even close to Code Geass.

AoT has a lot of Haruhi to it.  It's big and popular, but it's going to fall away pretty quickly.   It's big & brash, but it's not a game changer series.  It's nice it was popular for people, but a lot like SAO, by next year it's going to be something of a novelty.

I disagree. Shingeki no Kyojin has become a staple anime on par with Code Geass and Death Note. This anime isn't going anywhere for a very long time and will continue be one of the most highly recommended anime to any new watchers.

Comparing it to Haruhi is really a joke. Haruhi has never achieved any level of true mainstream reach. It was just insanely popular in the secular anime community. Shingeki no Kyojin is being watched by people who have never watched any anime before, and it will continue to appeal to them.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on September 29, 2013, 05:27:31 PM
Harsh ratings. I think it deserves at least a 7/10. I don't know if it's quite an 8/10 by NHRV scale, the Trost arc was pretty mediocre and too much recap every episode, but it's a very strong 7/10 at least and has been thoroughly enjoyable IMO.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on September 29, 2013, 05:31:13 PM
Harsh ratings. I think it deserves at least a 7/10. I don't know if it's quite an 8/10 by NHRV scale, the Trost arc was pretty mediocre and too much recap every episode, but it's a very strong 7/10 at least and has been thoroughly enjoyable IMO.

As Fumoffu! mentioned, this series suffered badly because of pacing issues. It's a very high 6/10, but can we really give anything above that to a series that, as you mentioned, so many recaps and such slow plot progression? I think I would have easily given it a 7/10 if they had more content, or if they reduced the number of episodes a bit. The reality is I was yawning way too much throughout the 25 episodes. I was hooked at certain parts, but I was also bored as heck at nearly equal amounts of time.

No anime I gave 7/10 made me yawn much, nor did they suffer pacing issues. For this alone, I can't put Shingeki no Kyojin up there with the other 7/10s.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 29, 2013, 05:32:35 PM
If you were to give this 6-7, just off my MAL that would put it next to Oreimo, Robotics;Notes, and Ao no Exorcist. I'm starting to think there's a scaling difference here, because on the worst day of my life I don't think I could put AoT lower than 7-8.

How does the distribution go with your rating systems? What other anime have you put next to AoT? 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: thanosmat on September 29, 2013, 05:35:42 PM
If you were to give this 6-7, just off my MAL that would put it next to Oreimo, Robotics;Notes, and Ao no Exorcist. I'm starting to think there's a scaling difference here, because on the worst day of my life I don't think I could put AoT lower than 7-8.

How does the distribution go with your rating systems? What other anime have you put next to AoT? 

http://anilist.co/

Decimal or centesimal ratings.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on September 29, 2013, 05:35:55 PM
If you were to give this 6-7, just off my MAL that would put it next to Oreimo, Robotics;Notes, and Ao no Exorcist. I'm starting to think there's a scaling difference here, because on the worst day of my life I don't think I could put AoT lower than 7-8.

How does the distribution go with your rating systems? What other anime have you put next to AoT?

Be a little harsher with your ratings, then! x3

4 is generally when I start to actively dislike what we're watching.
5 is very mixed.
I still like the anime quite a bit when it's a 6.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on September 29, 2013, 05:40:34 PM
If you were to give this 6-7, just off my MAL that would put it next to Oreimo, Robotics;Notes, and Ao no Exorcist. I'm starting to think there's a scaling difference here, because on the worst day of my life I don't think I could put AoT lower than 7-8.

To answer your question, it's more that I can't put it at 7/10 because no 7/10 ever made me yawn or bored as I watched it. Shingeki no Kyojin is much, much better than most of the anime I gave 6/10 to, but it's just not quite there at 7 yet. I also said that in the response to Reckoner above.

However, to answer your specific comparisons:

OreImo (6/10 on my list): I actually never yawned in OreImo, nor was I ever bored. Since my scores are subjective and based on enjoyment, I would actually put OreImo above Shingeki no Kyojin if we had decimal ratings. The reason why OreImo didn't get a 7/10 is because there were a few scenes that were borderline retarded, and giving it a 7 would be pushing it too much.

Robotics;Notes (6/10 on my list): Robotics;Notes was actually stronger than Shingeki no Kyojin for almost half the season. It maintained a sense of suspense better, and in comparison only the first few episodes were boring, compared to Shingeki no Kyojin where there were pacing issues across the whole show. Robotics;Notes was let down by a terrible ending which evens it out, since Shingeki no Kyojin ended on a very strong note. I loved the last few episodes of Shingeki no Kyojin.

Ao no Exorcist (5/10 on my list): It's a 5/10. No room for comparison here. The difference between 5 and 6 is way too big. Kind of like what Kiniest said above.

If you see anything else that's 6/10 or 7/10 on my list and you want to ask how they compare to Shingeki no Kyojin in terms of enjoyment, I'd be all too happy to answer. I'm always adjusting my ratings and if you can convince me to change things, that's much appreciated.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on September 29, 2013, 05:46:44 PM
I think if the show had a stronger cast it would be easier to give it a 7/10 or 8/10. Or if it didn't have the pacing issues like said before. Eren, Mikasa and Armen just aren't a strong enough trio to really carry the show if you ask me.

Then again it's just a rating scale, if you enjoyed it like a 9/10 then hey it's a 9/10 for you. Nothing wrong with that, plenty of different opinions in the world.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrow-kun on September 29, 2013, 05:48:03 PM
I didn't watch this show but I just want to pipe in by saying that, considering his CV reads of Death Note, Guilty Crown and Highschool of the Dead, I've never rated Araki Tetsurou highly as a director.  So, to be unabashedly pretentious for a minute, it doesn't really surprise me when a more critically minded community like this one doesn't rate one of his works anywhere near as highly as less discriminating communities like MAL or /r/anime.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on September 29, 2013, 05:50:15 PM
As Fumoffu! mentioned, this series suffered badly because of pacing issues. It's a very high 6/10, but can we really give anything above that to a series that, as you mentioned, so many recaps and such slow plot progression? I think I would have easily given it a 7/10 if they had more content, or if they reduced the number of episodes a bit. The reality is I was yawning way too much throughout the 25 episodes. I was hooked at certain parts, but I was also bored as heck at nearly equal amounts of time.

No anime I gave 7/10 made me yawn much, nor did they suffer pacing issues. For this alone, I can't put Shingeki no Kyojin up there with the other 7/10s.

Well the pacing issues are more relevant to the aforementioned Trost arc. That was where you could really tell they were slowing down the material and it took forever for things to happen. But that was only about a third of the show, and it wasn't like it was all bad, just not up to the quality of the beginning and ending arcs. I think the other arcs were more or less paced pretty well, and besides one or two episodes, I thought every episode was at least somewhat engaging. I think I might also like the characters more than most. If you're someone who wants to punch Eren every time he opens his mouth, then that will make a big difference in your viewing experience.

Also, there really are few series with actions scenes on this budget level. Combined with the Sawano music and Araki directing (Though this OST is nowhere near his best like in Unicorn and Ao no Exorcist admittedly), it was pretty thrilling. Again though, this depends on how much mileage you get out of such action scenes.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on September 29, 2013, 05:51:51 PM
I'm a bit confused when people say "over-the-top". What are we talking about? Death Note epic pen scenes? Dragon Ball Z shouting? The muscles in Jojo?

Well, "over-the-top" is, as minimum, the first episode of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.  With 6'6", 275 lbs, completely ripped... 12 year olds.   And then Dio kicks the dog with sound effects shown.  That's "over the top": taking realistic situations or emotions and taking them beyond the realm of the extreme.

The issue with AoT has always been the setting doesn't lend itself well to over-the-top.  It's a Grimdark Fantasy world, and these types of worlds always end up in a brooding place because that's the emotions being invoked.  For AoT, it uses Over The Top aspects to work against this pull in the world, to some good popularity, but it comes at the cost for making the series work well together.  It's the tension that causes a lot of the "critical point of view" issues with the series.  Oh, sure, it's a decent ride, unless you've been on them before.  Due mostly to the pacing, I got really bored with AoT, really quickly. 

Though, with AoT, while I think they made the proper director choice, the pacing decision (while completely defensible) really, really hurt the actual series.  Thus you end up with, essentially, "Human Mook of the Week" developments far too often.  (This being the inverse of the "Monster of the Week" format)  It leaves you to question how brutally stupid every human in the AoT world is.  And, frankly, most of them probably wouldn't have made it out of childhood.     This, however, does lead into the one thing that the Over The Top aspect really did for the series: it prevented you from giving it too much thought.   There's enough shounen-series aspects that you don't really question how terribly stupid so much of it is.   When it goes a bit "Grimdark + One Piece" for an episode, it removes the critical eye to the nature of the story being told.  This is also the same reason Pacific Rim is the best movie I've seen this year: it did what it needed to with its story so I could watch giant robots fight giant aliens.

The reason we come back to "Subtlety" a lot is due to the medium.  Subtlety, here, acts in much the way as the Acting Quality does in a Live Action work.  One solid lead actor can make a small film or movie truly work, as their performance alone matches (or just outright improves) the quality of the writing.   But with Anime, you simply don't have the actor's performance to work off.  It's all down to your design, anime, budget & making the script fit to those designs. 

You see this pop up in Movie criticism a lot when they offer the old phrase "Show, Don't Tell", and that phrase has a very important point.  It's a visual medium, so simply using Text or Assumption makes a pretty terrible experience for the watcher.   With Anime, the writing simply has to match with the visual style the series is going for.  If it doesn't, it doesn't matter how good either one is, it simply fails.  Though a "terrible looking, well written" series is normally harder to get through than a "awesome looking, terribly written" series.  Mostly as you can turn your head off for the pretty pictures.  (Thus, the Transformers movies)   If you want to see a great example of this, go back to last season and HenNeko.  (Hentai Prince & the Stony Cat)  The series was bat-shit crazy, the ideas were nuts and so was the characters.  But the production, sound & animation design completely fit the story that they wanted to tell.  Sure, it's never going to win any awards, but I had a very enjoyable watch.  Everything worked together and no aspect outstripped the others.

So "Subtlety" becomes a by-word for potential depth to characterization and animation design.  Even Jojo's, for as Over The Top as it is, has quite a lot of depth to its later characters.  It's not subtle about its powers or its battles, but there character interactions are generally complex enough that the characters progress.  Yet it can still give us Dubstep Squirrel  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxlJJdh_0Kc)moments.   One of AoT's biggest problems is that it takes its story too seriously.  You can take your World seriously and be Over The Top, but if you start to take the story itself seriously, it just comes across as your shouting exposition for several episodes.   Oh look, Eren or Armin are shouting exposition again.

Red Data Girl is a good example of writing (especially the compression factor) not matching with what PA Works wanted to do.  Rather than being subtle, it just ended up being supremely vague, with motivations making little sense and only some side characters being worth asking about.   That's true when you compress too much story down, even if the story has a lot of subtle aspects. 

Another really good example is from last year.  "Humanity has Declined" / "Jinrui wa Suitai Shimashita".  It's based off Light Novels by Romeo Tanaka (since his name came up in the Rewrite thread).  Everything in the design matches the writing, but there's so many layers beyond just the humor aspect that it's hard to actually figure out what the series truly is.  In the end, it's actually a Golden Age sci-fi story.  You use a constructed world to reflect back upon some of our own insanity.   Plus, Carrot Bread & Ave Maria Chickens.  (You have to watch the first 2 episodes, trust me on that.  You will not be displeased)    It has all of the qualities in its story & writing to make up for the occasional issues with story compression or oddities that exist in the world but are hard to get across in animation.  [I should note, after some time away, I finally get the way the series was structured, so I'd give it a higher review now]  It's a series that has a World that works before it has to do anything with it, allowing for exploration   

Then you can look at something like Girls und Panzer.   The series is brilliant on sheer execution alone, but all of the "tank groups" have depth and subtlety to them, even if we only get glimpses of it.  This is how the characters are able to play out the near-perfect sports drama, even if it's WW2 era tanks driven by teams of only female high school students.  (The amazing bit is how they even came up with a rational way it could come about)   

So, you can have "Subtlety" from many avenues in a series.  You can have Over The Top from many avenues in a series.  You can even have both in a series, but when you include both, you have to pick wisely which are work together, otherwise a series will fall apart quickly.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 29, 2013, 05:52:25 PM
Be a little harsher with your ratings, then! x3

I feel like my rating system is actually pretty demanding. I take basically the same attitude that my asian parents take with test scores. A rough overview:

Less than 5: Dropped, not rated.
5: Usually series that started tolerable but took a severe nosedive, otherwise I would have dropped them.
6: Silly garbage that I watch to laugh at.
7: Mixed bags or boring. ( Just a math-y note: Realize that if 10 is approaching perfection, a 7 can get ~50% better.)
8: Fun and entertaining.
9: Very good.
10: Hard to say. I went a long time without giving out any 10's because no 9s really distinguished themselves until I saw Gankutsuo. That made everything but 2-3 titles on my list look silly and trite. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Reckoner on September 29, 2013, 05:57:07 PM
I didn't watch this show but I just want to pipe in by saying that, considering his CV reads of Death Note, Guilty Crown and Highschool of the Dead, I've never rated Araki Tetsurou highly as a director.  So, to be unabashedly pretentious for a minute, it doesn't really surprise me when a more critically minded community like this one doesn't rate one of his works anywhere near as highly as less discriminating communities like MAL or /r/anime.

I think what's common to all Araki works is an over the top and very shameless style of directing. Depending on the work, it can be a big boost or a grave error, sometimes even within the same work. I think Death Note really benefited from his directing style and made that work very enjoyable. HoTD on the other hand suffered tremendously and it became one of the stupidest anime viewing experiences of my life. Guilty Crown I blame more on Yoshino's writing than I do on Araki, as Yoshino is the industry's greatest hack writer alive.

I think Attack on Titan mostly benefited from his very bombast style, but like others have mentioned, it could have benefited from slowing down in the more talking scenes. He never let a scene speak for itself when it would have been perfectly fine on its own.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on September 29, 2013, 06:04:44 PM
Be a little harsher with your ratings, then! x3

I feel like my rating system is actually pretty demanding. I take basically the same attitude that my asian parents take with test scores. A rough overview:

Less than 5: Dropped, not rated.
5: Usually series that started tolerable but took a severe nosedive, otherwise I would have dropped them.
6: Silly garbage that I watch to laugh at.
7: Mixed bags or boring. ( Just a math-y note: Realize that if 10 is approaching perfection, a 7 can get ~50% better.)
8: Fun and entertaining.
9: Very good.
10: Hard to say. I went a long time without giving out any 10's because no 9s really distinguished themselves until I saw Gankutsuo. That made everything but 2-3 titles on my list look silly and trite.
Really? For me, and I believe for a good lot of people here, this is how it goes:

1. Unforgivable, a failure of an attempt at writing and production.
2. Throw it in the toilet, they tried to produce something but it just went down through the wrong system.
3. Something that's a general failure. It might be trying, but it's either incredibly stupid, incredibly boring, or horribly written.
4. A fairly mediocre show. Maybe a harem or something equally rediculous that might try but doesn't do anything right.
5. Not a bad show, but not great. Maybe it's fun or a bit unique, but it doesn't try enough or it tries too hard. Maybe it just isn't unique at all, or, it's well written but just badly presented.
6. A likable show, something that stands out quite a bit more than a 5. There's something in it that makes it a better attempt than a usual affair, or, it's got great ideas and just doesn't try hard enough to present something unique.
7. A very good show that isn't quite polished, or maybe a very well executed show that would otherwise be a bit lower. Generally memorable or favorable.
8. A fantastic show, maybe of simple innovation or execution, that either misses too many steps or doesn't appeal enough to you to hit the next step.
9. A masterpiece, often a bit subjective, sometimes due to particular appeal, in which we both enjoy the show and admire its writing.
10. The favorite of he/she who rates it, a show that should be considered personal and partial to the reviewer or watcher in which it is unique and considered a masterpiece by the person who rates it as such. Completely stand out.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on September 29, 2013, 06:07:59 PM
I didn't watch this show but I just want to pipe in by saying that, considering his CV reads of Death Note, Guilty Crown and Highschool of the Dead, I've never rated Araki Tetsurou highly as a director.  So, to be unabashedly pretentious for a minute, it doesn't really surprise me when a more critically minded community like this one doesn't rate one of his works anywhere near as highly as less discriminating communities like MAL or /r/anime.

The funny part is, my ratings are usually closer to that of /r/anime than that of us here. I really wanted to enjoy Shingeki no Kyojin, but in the end I just couldn't enjoy it as much as those guys.

Well the pacing issues are more relevant to the aforementioned Trost arc. That was where you could really tell they were slowing down the material and it took forever for things to happen. But that was only about a third of the show, and it wasn't like it was all bad, just not up to the quality of the beginning and ending arcs. I think the other arcs were more or less paced pretty well, and besides one or two episodes, I thought every episode was at least somewhat engaging. I think I might also like the characters more than most. If you're someone who wants to punch Eren every time he opens his mouth, then that will make a big difference in your viewing experience.

Even 1/3 is too much. My 7/10s never suffer from pacing issues at any given moment in the series. Also, I do want to punch Eren every time he opens his mouth.

Also, there really are few series with actions scenes on this budget level. Combined with the Sawano music and Araki directing (Though this OST is nowhere near his best like in Unicorn and Ao no Exorcist admittedly), it was pretty thrilling. Again though, this depends on how much mileage you get out of such action scenes.

I agree with the budget levels and the OST, but they won't make me bump the score to a 7 if there were moments where I found myself pretty bored with the show. Even during the action scenes.

I feel like my rating system is actually pretty demanding. I take basically the same attitude that my asian parents take with test scores. A rough overview:

Less than 5: Dropped, not rated.
5: Usually series that started tolerable but took a severe nosedive, otherwise I would have dropped them.
6: Silly garbage that I watch to laugh at.
7: Mixed bags or boring. ( Just a math-y note: Realize that if 10 is approaching perfection, a 7 can get ~50% better.)

OK, we can actually stop discussing about why I gave Shingeki no Kyojin a 6/10 now.

Just like Kiniest said, your ratings system is much too different compared to most of ours. Your 7/10 is equal to my 5/10. In fact, even my 5/10s aren't actually full out boring. When I give a 7/10 it's already considered very good.

I don't think you should give the 5/10 rating to anime that you drop. You should utilize the numbers 1-4! They exist for a reason.

9. A masterpiece
10. The favorite of he/she who rates it, a show that should be considered personal and partial to the reviewer or watcher in which it is unique and considered a masterpiece by the person who rates it as such. Completely stand out.

I love this. Too many people put 10/10 as a masterpiece. I love it when people like us put 9/10 as the masterpiece and 10/10 as a subjective personal favourite.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on September 29, 2013, 06:16:08 PM
9. A masterpiece
10. The favorite of he/she who rates it, a show that should be considered personal and partial to the reviewer or watcher in which it is unique and considered a masterpiece by the person who rates it as such. Completely stand out.

I love this. Too many people put 10/10 as a masterpiece. I love it when people like us put 9/10 as the masterpiece and 10/10 as a subjective personal favourite.
I think it appeals to most of us here, though. Marid's got Gankutsuo, I've got Gurren Lagann, you've got Lucky Star and Aria, Fumoffu's got The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya, Pebble's got Shinsekai Yori, ect ect. It's a lot different from how a lot of other people go about it.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on September 29, 2013, 06:16:23 PM
I didn't watch this show but I just want to pipe in by saying that, considering his CV reads of Death Note, Guilty Crown and Highschool of the Dead, I've never rated Araki Tetsurou highly as a director.  So, to be unabashedly pretentious for a minute, it doesn't really surprise me when a more critically minded community like this one doesn't rate one of his works anywhere near as highly as less discriminating communities like MAL or /r/anime.

I think what's common to all Araki works is an over the top and very shameless style of directing. Depending on the work, it can be a big boost or a grave error, sometimes even within the same work. I think Death Note really benefited from his directing style and made that work very enjoyable. HoTD on the other hand suffered tremendously and it became one of the stupidest anime viewing experiences of my life. Guilty Crown I blame more on Yoshino's writing than I do on Araki, as Yoshino is the industry's greatest hack writer alive.

I think Attack on Titan mostly benefited from his very bombast style, but like others have mentioned, it could have benefited from slowing down in the more talking scenes. He never let a scene speak for itself when it would have been perfectly fine on its own.

Araki did Guilty Crown?  I forgot about that.  Yeah, that's Yoshino's fault then.  Araki is probably why Dan Eagleman is the greatest American ever. 

Araki did help this series and I think he was the right choice, but he doesn't have a deft touch with a lot of things.  As the pacing slowed down, it really showed. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 29, 2013, 06:17:09 PM
Well, "over-the-top" is, as minimum, the first episode of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.  With 6'6", 275 lbs, completely ripped... 12 year olds.   And then Dio kicks the dog with sound effects shown.  That's "over the top": taking realistic situations or emotions and taking them beyond the realm of the extreme.

Alright now that I have a good frame of reference...

I'm really not seeing the over-the-top in AoT. It seems I was on the right track in thinking that over-the-top indicates an immersion-breaking element of ridiculousness. The only example I can think of in AoT is the fact that Eren can turn into a Titan. Certainly it's a loud and in-your-face anime, but this almost helped pull me into the show, and aforementioned example aside, never did it make me take a step back and say, 'Now we've gone way too far, I have a huge grin on my face'.

What are the scenes that you guys see as over the top?   
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on September 29, 2013, 06:19:18 PM
As for ratings, around NHR, it's generally expected that we work by a normal Bell Curve.  So a "medium" series is a 5.  So, there's a lot of 5s around these parts.

On my personal side of things, I pretty much won't give a series a 1 or 2, as I'll drop it before that.  Hurts my rating curve, but I don't put myself through stuff that's truly terrible.  Though I'll get through a 3 without too much issue. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrow-kun on September 29, 2013, 06:19:56 PM
OK, we can actually stop discussing about why I gave Shingeki no Kyojin a 6/10 now.
Yeah, I kinda think arguing about numerical ratings very quickly becomes a waste of time.  It's fair enough to clarify what your rating values mean, but at the end of the day it's a definitional debate, so usually it never progresses past "my number means one thing and your number means something else".  Talking about the show itself is a much more valuable discussion.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on September 29, 2013, 06:24:02 PM
Well, "over-the-top" is, as minimum, the first episode of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.  With 6'6", 275 lbs, completely ripped... 12 year olds.   And then Dio kicks the dog with sound effects shown.  That's "over the top": taking realistic situations or emotions and taking them beyond the realm of the extreme.

Alright now that I have a good frame of reference...

I'm really not seeing the over-the-top in AoT. It seems I was on the right track in thinking that over-the-top indicates an immersion-breaking element of ridiculousness. The only example I can think of in AoT is the fact that Eren can turn into a Titan. Certainly it's a loud and in-your-face anime, but this almost helped pull me into the show, and aforementioned example aside, never did it make me take a step back and say, 'Now we've gone way too far, I have a huge grin on my face'.

What are the scenes that you guys see as over the top?   

Armin's exposition at any point through... umm... at least the first cour.  We're talking "realm of the extreme" of something realistic.  If it's fantastical, that's all it is.  (Same with sci-fi based) 

For AoT, though, most of the world setting is actually Over The Top.  Nearly all of the humans are so incompetent as to be utterly unbelievable.    It's kind of how Free! is actually quite Over The Top.  No one has the type of physiques that the guys are rolling with.  It's presented as "realistic", but it's actually in the realm of physiological impossibility.  (Which you can do in a fantasy or sci-fi series, but a real-world slice of life?  Umm... yeah, that's not a design issue)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on September 29, 2013, 06:24:21 PM
I love this. Too many people put 10/10 as a masterpiece. I love it when people like us put 9/10 as the masterpiece and 10/10 as a subjective personal favourite.
I think it appeals to most of us here, though. Marid's got Gankutsuo, I've got Gurren Lagann, you've got Lucky Star and Aria, Fumoffu's got The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya, Pebble's got Shinsekai Yori, ect ect. It's a lot different from how a lot of other people go about it.

The beauty of it is that Gankutsuo, Gurren Lagann and Disappearance are all 9/10 on my scale. Masterpieces, but not my absolute personal favourite. Also just in case you didn't know, Aria the Origination is actually a 10/10 on Fumoffu!'s list too. He just doesn't make as much noise about the series as I do. I know how much he enjoyed the series since I personally recommended it to him a while ago.

Yeah, I kinda think arguing about numerical ratings very quickly becomes a waste of time.  It's fair enough to clarify what your rating values mean, but at the end of the day it's a definitional debate, so usually it never progresses past "my number means one thing and your number means something else".  Talking about the show itself is a much more valuable discussion.

Very true. The emphasis on threads like these should be about the show itself, but sometimes numbers can save you time because having seen that many of us gave it a 6/10, you know you can skip watching this show without losing out on much. Some numerical rating discussions can be fun especially since it only happens when a series is over. We spend the entire season discussing the show itself after all, a little discussion about numbers at the end can't hurt. :P
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on September 29, 2013, 06:36:28 PM
I'm a bit confused when people say "over-the-top". What are we talking about? Death Note epic pen scenes? Dragon Ball Z shouting? The muscles in Jojo?

Well, "over-the-top" is, as minimum, the first episode of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.  With 6'6", 275 lbs, completely ripped... 12 year olds.   And then Dio kicks the dog with sound effects shown.  That's "over the top": taking realistic situations or emotions and taking them beyond the realm of the extreme.

The issue with AoT has always been the setting doesn't lend itself well to over-the-top.  It's a Grimdark Fantasy world, and these types of worlds always end up in a brooding place because that's the emotions being invoked.  For AoT, it uses Over The Top aspects to work against this pull in the world, to some good popularity, but it comes at the cost for making the series work well together.  It's the tension that causes a lot of the "critical point of view" issues with the series.  Oh, sure, it's a decent ride, unless you've been on them before.  Due mostly to the pacing, I got really bored with AoT, really quickly. 

Though, with AoT, while I think they made the proper director choice, the pacing decision (while completely defensible) really, really hurt the actual series.  Thus you end up with, essentially, "Human Mook of the Week" developments far too often.  (This being the inverse of the "Monster of the Week" format)  It leaves you to question how brutally stupid every human in the AoT world is.  And, frankly, most of them probably wouldn't have made it out of childhood.     This, however, does lead into the one thing that the Over The Top aspect really did for the series: it prevented you from giving it too much thought.   There's enough shounen-series aspects that you don't really question how terribly stupid so much of it is.   When it goes a bit "Grimdark + One Piece" for an episode, it removes the critical eye to the nature of the story being told.  This is also the same reason Pacific Rim is the best movie I've seen this year: it did what it needed to with its story so I could watch giant robots fight giant aliens.

The reason we come back to "Subtlety" a lot is due to the medium.  Subtlety, here, acts in much the way as the Acting Quality does in a Live Action work.  One solid lead actor can make a small film or movie truly work, as their performance alone matches (or just outright improves) the quality of the writing.   But with Anime, you simply don't have the actor's performance to work off.  It's all down to your design, anime, budget & making the script fit to those designs. 

You see this pop up in Movie criticism a lot when they offer the old phrase "Show, Don't Tell", and that phrase has a very important point.  It's a visual medium, so simply using Text or Assumption makes a pretty terrible experience for the watcher.   With Anime, the writing simply has to match with the visual style the series is going for.  If it doesn't, it doesn't matter how good either one is, it simply fails.  Though a "terrible looking, well written" series is normally harder to get through than a "awesome looking, terribly written" series.  Mostly as you can turn your head off for the pretty pictures.  (Thus, the Transformers movies)   If you want to see a great example of this, go back to last season and HenNeko.  (Hentai Prince & the Stony Cat)  The series was bat-shit crazy, the ideas were nuts and so was the characters.  But the production, sound & animation design completely fit the story that they wanted to tell.  Sure, it's never going to win any awards, but I had a very enjoyable watch.  Everything worked together and no aspect outstripped the others.

So "Subtlety" becomes a by-word for potential depth to characterization and animation design.  Even Jojo's, for as Over The Top as it is, has quite a lot of depth to its later characters.  It's not subtle about its powers or its battles, but there character interactions are generally complex enough that the characters progress.  Yet it can still give us Dubstep Squirrel  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxlJJdh_0Kc)moments.   One of AoT's biggest problems is that it takes its story too seriously.  You can take your World seriously and be Over The Top, but if you start to take the story itself seriously, it just comes across as your shouting exposition for several episodes.   Oh look, Eren or Armin are shouting exposition again.

Red Data Girl is a good example of writing (especially the compression factor) not matching with what PA Works wanted to do.  Rather than being subtle, it just ended up being supremely vague, with motivations making little sense and only some side characters being worth asking about.   That's true when you compress too much story down, even if the story has a lot of subtle aspects. 

Another really good example is from last year.  "Humanity has Declined" / "Jinrui wa Suitai Shimashita".  It's based off Light Novels by Romeo Tanaka (since his name came up in the Rewrite thread).  Everything in the design matches the writing, but there's so many layers beyond just the humor aspect that it's hard to actually figure out what the series truly is.  In the end, it's actually a Golden Age sci-fi story.  You use a constructed world to reflect back upon some of our own insanity.   Plus, Carrot Bread & Ave Maria Chickens.  (You have to watch the first 2 episodes, trust me on that.  You will not be displeased)    It has all of the qualities in its story & writing to make up for the occasional issues with story compression or oddities that exist in the world but are hard to get across in animation.  [I should note, after some time away, I finally get the way the series was structured, so I'd give it a higher review now]  It's a series that has a World that works before it has to do anything with it, allowing for exploration   

Then you can look at something like Girls und Panzer.   The series is brilliant on sheer execution alone, but all of the "tank groups" have depth and subtlety to them, even if we only get glimpses of it.  This is how the characters are able to play out the near-perfect sports drama, even if it's WW2 era tanks driven by teams of only female high school students.  (The amazing bit is how they even came up with a rational way it could come about)   

So, you can have "Subtlety" from many avenues in a series.  You can have Over The Top from many avenues in a series.  You can even have both in a series, but when you include both, you have to pick wisely which are work together, otherwise a series will fall apart quickly.

This whole post can be basically be summed up as shonen autobad, subtlety autogood
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sorrow-kun on September 29, 2013, 06:39:49 PM
As for ratings, around NHR, it's generally expected that we work by a normal Bell Curve.  So a "medium" series is a 5.  So, there's a lot of 5s around these parts.
I actually did the analysis one day (a long time ago) and found that the distribution of NHRV ratings for anime was a skewed bell curve which slightly favoured higher ratings, and that the average was somewhere between 6 and 7, closer to the higher rating.  I never mandated perfectly normal distributions in my time in charge and I doubt Kylaran does either.  The most important quality for a reviewer (in my eyes) is honesty.  If readers can't believe that what the reviewer is writing is an honest appraisal of what they saw and what they thought, then there's no point, is there.

The reason for the skewed distribution is that, at the end of the day, reviewers are anime fans too, so they'll be naturally drawn to anime they actually like.  That's one of things I did have to push back in the early days: to get reviewers to try to complete and review more crappy anime.  When you give out 9s and 10s, it has much more meaning when they're rare, and when you, as a reviewer, have made it clear what you don't like.  When we give out ratings above 9, we're basically saying "you've gotta see this".  No one's going to pay attention to you if you're saying that all the time.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on September 29, 2013, 06:41:56 PM
The most important quality for a reviewer (in my eyes) is honesty.

Here is Dr. Sorrow's citation for this statement. (http://www.nihonreview.com/anime/b-gata-h-kei/) Reviews like this make me love this place.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 29, 2013, 06:57:51 PM

I don't think you should give the 5/10 rating to anime that you drop. You should utilize the numbers 1-4! They exist for a reason.

9. A masterpiece
10. The favorite of he/she who rates it, a show that should be considered personal and partial to the reviewer or watcher in which it is unique and considered a masterpiece by the person who rates it as such. Completely stand out.

I love this. Too many people put 10/10 as a masterpiece. I love it when people like us put 9/10 as the masterpiece and 10/10 as a subjective personal favourite.

Just to clarify, I don't give 5/10 to anime I drop, I just don't rate them. I think everyone agrees that 1-4 are bad, it's just that my response to a bad anime is to drop it rather than suffer, and if I haven't seen a show in it's entirety I can't fairly rate it. Personally I think it's a little masochistic to watch and score something you think so poorly of that you wouldn't recommend it to someone else. I've always felt that the purpose of ratings is to recognize good work, and not to laugh at poor fare. People don't need to know that X anime is even worse than Y anime, they just need to know that both are trash and to not waste time watching either.   

I feel like 9/10 is making somewhat light of the word 'masterpiece', especially when set in the larger context of other mediums. Frankly, depending on how harsh and austere a critic you are, there might not actually be an anime masterpiece, period (I probably wouldn't agree though).   
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on September 29, 2013, 06:58:43 PM
I'm a bit confused when people say "over-the-top". What are we talking about? Death Note epic pen scenes? Dragon Ball Z shouting? The muscles in Jojo?

Well, "over-the-top" is, as minimum, the first episode of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.  With 6'6", 275 lbs, completely ripped... 12 year olds.   And then Dio kicks the dog with sound effects shown.  That's "over the top": taking realistic situations or emotions and taking them beyond the realm of the extreme.

The issue with AoT has always been the setting doesn't lend itself well to over-the-top.  It's a Grimdark Fantasy world, and these types of worlds always end up in a brooding place because that's the emotions being invoked.  For AoT, it uses Over The Top aspects to work against this pull in the world, to some good popularity, but it comes at the cost for making the series work well together.  It's the tension that causes a lot of the "critical point of view" issues with the series.  Oh, sure, it's a decent ride, unless you've been on them before.  Due mostly to the pacing, I got really bored with AoT, really quickly. 

-- Snipped the rest for space reasons --

This whole post can be basically be summed up as shonen autobad, subtlety autogood

And you really didn't read that, did you?   If I honestly believed "shounen autobad", why would I like One Piece as much as I do?  I'm freaking CURRENT on the anime.  Think on that.

Shounen can be exceptional, see either of the Fullmetal Alchemist series.  It can also be the terrible, by the book adaptations that come up almost every season.  (I'm thinking of Code:Breaker as a recent, terrible example)   But AoT is neither Berserk nor Naruto.  It's trying to split the difference and, while popular, that doesn't mean it's brilliant.  The anime series had some great moments, but when you spend long periods of time wanting to take a "clue bat" to characters, you know there are problems.

It's a more mature Shounen and I'm very happy for the Mangaka (unless he blows the money, his future is secure), but that doesn't make it beyond "above average", while much of the qualities that makes it above average will wear thin.   Bleach is something of a joke, now, because everything went as Aizen planned, but those first few years were quite brilliant and it was a massive title.  But the problems in the world build (and Shounen Fight Inflation) caught up with Tite and the series sank.  Titan has the same issues.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on September 29, 2013, 07:05:30 PM
Bleach has to have had the worst case of writers block I've ever seen in a shounen.

It went from being yuyu hakusho level to pretty much the worst shounen I've ever seen. It's just so sad that Kariya ended up being a much better villain than Aizen did.

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on September 29, 2013, 07:06:41 PM
Personally I think it's a little masochistic to watch and score something you think so poorly of that you wouldn't recommend it to someone else.

But that's who we are - masochists! We watch the bad stuff so our friends don't have to suffer the same fate.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on September 29, 2013, 07:33:55 PM
If I didn't watch airing shows my average rating would be significantly higher, in fact it's below 5.5 which is what you'd expect if you randomly selected 510 anime to watch and then rated them... possibly. My average rating is actually dragged down by the 1s and 2s, or which there is a disproportionate amount. I blame Recorder, M.D. Geist and shit harems.

Also relating to 10s, mine are FMP:TSR, The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya and Aria the Origination. They are shows which I not only think are very good but cause a massive tightening in my chest from the sheer enjoyment, that engrosses me with the engaging characters who you really care about. Indeed whilst Haruhi S2 should be fairly low scored due to Endless 8, I've got it as a 7 simply because it gave me a moment that I just felt was perfect. Come to think of it Uchouten cause that feeling at the end of the penultimate episode, where everyone all ends up in the same place. That set up was beautiful, and it gave me a little burst of joy.


Now, strictly back on topic, I honestly feel bad about giving SnK below a 7, which is what I initially decided to rate it. Watching airing was so frustrating though, and I became so disengaged that by the time the fight between Eren and Annie happened the first time (in the woods) I just didn't care. If I marathoned it I feel I would enjoy it a hell of a lot more, and I think that I will wait until the second season is about to air before rewatching it. Ideally what I'd like to do is marathon all of it, like I am attempting to do with Monogatari by waiting til it's almost over before watching it, however I'm not convinced I can avoid spoilers. On the other hand, since we didn't really discuss SnK much as it was airing I don't think I'd miss out on much.

Now, I think this is a very good gateway anime. In fact I think it is better as a gateway anime than even Code Geass is, even though I'd say that Code Geass is definitely better. For one it is much cooler, Code Geass at times is a bit camp and some of my RL friends have dismissed it on superficial grounds. With SnK though, there is no campy plot or anything of the bad things associated with it like fan service (or even innuendo).

It should be obvious, but gateway anime don't need to be good. Mine was Bleach, it isn't brilliant, but it has an instant appeal, much like SnK does, you see Titans, you get Titans. Code Geass doesn't have such a straightforward appeal, you can't so easily read it's good points off the tin/cover/whatever.

I just rambled about whatever shit didn't I?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: hyperknees91 on September 29, 2013, 08:05:47 PM
I'm surprised Code Geass is recommended as a gateway anime. I mean isn't the plot a little too hard to follow and convoluted for a first recommended anime?

I thought that's why people consider SAO a gateway anime. Because the plot is plain and easy to understand. Maybe I'm off base with this though.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on September 29, 2013, 08:26:04 PM
Personally I think it's a little masochistic to watch and score something you think so poorly of that you wouldn't recommend it to someone else.

But that's who we are - masochists! We watch the bad stuff so our friends don't have to suffer the same fate.

Let's try to stay away from overvaluing the importance of our own opinions shall we.  Even I don't place that much stock and weight behind my own positions because while I'm assured of what I and many of my friends like I don't think I'm in any position to use my tastes as a qualifier for others nor frankly are you.

Frankly I think in general there's a lot of BS being bandied around this thread in the last couple of pages.  One of the few statements that actually rang true to me though was Sorrow-K's about the most important quality of being a reviewer being believability.  Before being critical (something I think some are placing too much value on here.  Like am I supposed to be impressed if someones median ranking on MAL is lower than mine?  As if that's some sort of measure of relevance and quality of peer reviewing?  As an example there's this one guy on MAL named roriconfan who goes around lowballing just about every show score wise and writes what are IMO largely incoherent and pretty poorly thought out reviews that sell just about everything short and are clearly ego driven [as in "look how critical and judgmental I am!  Look how high my standards are hurf durf!"] as opposed to helpful recommendations for people reading them.  I should hope that is not what a good reviewer aspires too,) before emotional connection, before even passion and being a good wordsmith ranks the ability to have your words ring true and honest to the people reading your review on something without the skepticism that comes from blatant favoritism towards certain genres and creators.  If I can see right through someone to the obvious prejudices and predispositions that color their peer review of something than I'm not going to place much stock in it.  Unfortunately this covers the vast majority of MAL reviews and I swear some days, to be again brutally honest, I don't feel the NHRV boards are that much better when it comes to critical appraisal.  :-\
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on September 29, 2013, 08:43:59 PM
Now, strictly back on topic, I honestly feel bad about giving SnK below a 7, which is what I initially decided to rate it. Watching airing was so frustrating though, and I became so disengaged that by the time the fight between Eren and Annie happened the first time (in the woods) I just didn't care. If I marathoned it I feel I would enjoy it a hell of a lot more, and I think that I will wait until the second season is about to air before rewatching it. Ideally what I'd like to do is marathon all of it, like I am attempting to do with Monogatari by waiting til it's almost over before watching it, however I'm not convinced I can avoid spoilers. On the other hand, since we didn't really discuss SnK much as it was airing I don't think I'd miss out on much.

Now, I think this is a very good gateway anime. In fact I think it is better as a gateway anime than even Code Geass is, even though I'd say that Code Geass is definitely better. For one it is much cooler, Code Geass at times is a bit camp and some of my RL friends have dismissed it on superficial grounds. With SnK though, there is no campy plot or anything of the bad things associated with it like fan service (or even innuendo).

It should be obvious, but gateway anime don't need to be good. Mine was Bleach, it isn't brilliant, but it has an instant appeal, much like SnK does, you see Titans, you get Titans. Code Geass doesn't have such a straightforward appeal, you can't so easily read it's good points off the tin/cover/whatever.

I don't feel bad about my decision to give it below a 7 because it truly was frustrating at times. I do agree that marathoning it will probably give a better experience, but in the end I think most of my frustration came from the fact I didn't like Eren. Reckoner hit the nail on the head with that one. I do want to punch Eren most of the time he talks because quite frankly, he's dumber than any of the Big Three protagonists and that's really saying something. There are stronger characters in Shingeki no Kyojin, but they're just not given as much screen time.

I'm not quite sure if it's truly better than Code Geass as a gateway anime simply because Lelouch is such an incredible, vibrant and charismatic character. Even today after seven years of watching anime, I still think he is one of the strongest protagonists I have ever seen in this medium. I'm aware that we're not talking about how good an anime is as a whole, but how good it is as a gateway anime. I still think Code Geass is superior, but that's just my opinion. I would be fine with either one if I'm recommending the first anime to a friend.

I'm surprised Code Geass is recommended as a gateway anime. I mean isn't the plot a little too hard to follow and convoluted for a first recommended anime?

I thought that's why people consider SAO a gateway anime. Because the plot is plain and easy to understand. Maybe I'm off base with this though.

I think most people are intelligent enough to follow Code Geass, and even if it gets a bit convoluted, it's still awfully entertaining. You're not off base with SAO though because that's another pretty good one.

Let's try to stay away from overvaluing the importance of our own opinions shall we.  Even I don't place that much stock and weight behind my own positions because while I'm assured of what I and many of my friends like I don't think I'm in any position to use my tastes as a qualifier for others nor frankly are you.

I agree with you. I don't believe my tastes are good enough to decide what other people should watch, and that's why I am not a reviewer on NHRV. Kylaran recruited me a year ago, but after looking at my rather unique tastes and my ego-centric nature when it comes to posting, I decided it's still too early for me to call myself a critic and recommend anime to other people based on my tastes.

However, when it comes to my friends, I don't really think you need to be a critic to recommend them anime you consider good, and telling them to avoid anime you think are terrible. If you can't even do something as casual as this, how can you call them your friends? If I offended you, I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 29, 2013, 08:53:31 PM
Personally I think it's a little masochistic to watch and score something you think so poorly of that you wouldn't recommend it to someone else.

But that's who we are - masochists! We watch the bad stuff so our friends don't have to suffer the same fate.

Let's try to stay away from overvaluing the importance of our own opinions shall we.  Even I don't place that much stock and weight behind my own positions because while I'm assured of what I and many of my friends like I don't think I'm in any position to use my tastes as a qualifier for others nor frankly are you.


I think you may be misinterpreting a half-joke.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on September 29, 2013, 08:56:13 PM
I think you may be misinterpreting a half-joke.

Yeah, but I wrote a serious response for him anyway because now that I look back, my joke was in somewhat of a poor taste if taken literally.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on September 29, 2013, 09:00:14 PM
I don't really see Code Geass as a comparable to Attack on Titan aside from both having a flair for the bombastic at times.  Code Geass is a pretty typical Sunrise produced real robot mecha anime with it's large cast, scope, layers of storytelling and themes, and general potential for expansion and spin offs due to sheer size, world building, multimedia approach and overall ambition.  Titan is pretty up front about what it's appeal is and up to this point pretty localized in setting and centered around cast that never really leaves the center of the stories attention.  Plus the author of the manga made clear his intent to end the franchise in twenty volumes.

@ImperialX:  Friends are different story for sure.  I've managed to get my one friend hooked on the likes of Jojo, Valvrave, Gundam, Macross and various legacy super robot sagas because I know like me he'd find much to like about them.  Can't say the same for strangers though which is why trying to speak in general terms about what I like is a bit trickier.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: ImperialX on September 29, 2013, 09:07:23 PM
@ImperialX:  Friends are different story for sure.  I've managed to get my one friend hooked on the likes of Jojo, Valvrave, Gundam, Macross and various legacy super robot sagas because I know like me he'd find much to like about them.  Can't say the same for strangers though which is why trying to speak in general terms about what I like is a bit trickier.

I'm glad that it was a misunderstanding and now we are cleared up. Again, I apologise if my joke was vague and in poor taste.

As for your big wall of text about NHRV's reviews, I'm not a staff so I'm not qualified to say anything, but I personally believe that your mileage immensely will vary from reviewer to reviewer. It's quite easy to see who out of the NHRV staff are blatantly, unapologetically honest and who are putting their emotions aside; writing truly critical, non-subjective reviews. What Sorrow-kun was saying about honesty is that he promotes the former, but he will not disallow that latter. That's his style, and personally I think it's great.

If you think it's unprofessional, that's fine since we can all have our own opinions. One thing's for sure though - if NHRV didn't have reviews written based off their egos and prejudices, I wouldn't have stayed. There's a reason why no one reads ANN reviews.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on September 29, 2013, 09:16:22 PM
@ImperialX:  Friends are different story for sure.  I've managed to get my one friend hooked on the likes of Jojo, Valvrave, Gundam, Macross and various legacy super robot sagas because I know like me he'd find much to like about them.  Can't say the same for strangers though which is why trying to speak in general terms about what I like is a bit trickier.

I'm glad that it was a misunderstanding and now we are cleared up. Again, I apologise if my joke was vague and in poor taste.

As for your big wall of text about NHRV's reviews, I'm not a staff so I'm not qualified to say anything, but I personally believe that your mileage immensely will vary from reviewer to reviewer. It's quite easy to see who out of the NHRV staff are blatantly, unapologetically honest and who are putting their emotions aside; writing truly critical, non-subjective reviews. What Sorrow-kun was saying about honesty is that he promotes the former, but he will not disallow that latter. That's his style, and personally I think it's great.

If you think it's unprofessional, that's fine since we can all have our own opinions. One thing's for sure though - if NHRV didn't have reviews written based off their egos and prejudices, I wouldn't have stayed. There's a reason why no one reads ANN reviews.

I've already figured out which reviewers I think are pretty good matches for my particular tastes and interests and which I can just disregard as having little in common with what I look for in an anime production.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: RyuKyotei on September 29, 2013, 09:26:40 PM
Frankly, KS, I think most of the people who don't post official reviews already wouldn't be cut out for it now.  However, I think even unofficial opinions can be just as valuable as the official ones.

 I learned after reading about video games and how those are reviewed that no one can be truly completely objective.  Reviewing any form of art is inherently subjective.  Besides the objective qualities such as animation or voice acting, you're up for everything being up to the reviewer.  The key to getting any decent opinion or review is finding that one reviewer or commenter that tends to match our tastes and follow their advice more than someone who tends to say things that you completely disagree with.  You can get smaller tidbits from the people you disagree with, but you'll tend to get decent advice for your taste from the person you tend to respect more or agree with more. 

So if you say that most of us non-reviewers aren't amazing reviewers or critics that could always be followed, then I would agree with you. However, that doesn't mean our opinions automatically void or completely wrong to everybody. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 29, 2013, 09:48:17 PM
Even when I strongly disagree with a post or review on NHRV (Mawaru Penguindrum), I love reading them when they're about an anime I'm watching or care about. A good show has me wanting more of that experience, and one way to get it is to get someone else's perspective. Another factor is that NHRV is a close-knit forum, and so even if they're off their rocker it's great to read a recognizable personalities' thoughts in detail on a subject you're interested in. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on September 29, 2013, 10:48:34 PM
I don't think I've ever given a show a 10.  Even on a personal and subjective level, there's always something that drives me back to reality.  Thus, 9 is my ceiling, so my averages get skewed by that.

But I also start at zero.  Zero is what I give a show when I want to murder the people who made it.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: thanosmat on September 29, 2013, 10:55:49 PM
I don't think I've ever given a show a 10.  Even on a personal and subjective level, there's always something that drives me back to reality.  Thus, 9 is my ceiling, so my averages get skewed by that.

But I also start at zero.  Zero is what I give a show when I want to murder the people who made it.

It's a matter of scale, if you call your nine, ten instead.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 29, 2013, 10:57:36 PM
It's a matter of scale, if you call your nine, ten instead.

I don't want to get too grammar nazi but this sentence just made me go 60-0 into a brick wall with that comma after the 'nine'.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Garuda on September 29, 2013, 11:42:15 PM
I think we can be objective, despite our personal opinion. For example, it's not that I don't like Mad Men, but I don't like it as much as some other shows. Nevertheless, it's obvious that Mad Men is a great show from a technical point of view, the writing, directing and acting are excellent. I love Mawaru, but I truly believe it deserves a 9 for what Ikuhara accomplished, and the good production values.

The latters and the voice acting do matter. But they need to be modulated according to the type of the show. Bakemonogatari relies a lot on dialogues, Watamote or totally different shows like Code Geass or Death Note rely on a major leading role, and in these cases, voice acting is an important criteria. In SnK, I don't feel it's as relevant as it could be for these animes. However, the visuals and the soundtrack are much more essential in an epic saga and artistic shows like Mawaru or Madoka, and that's why they should be taken in consideration for the rating.

This is also a reason why I disagree with only a 7 for both Stand Alone Complex seasons on NHRV, which were visually for animes what The Matrix did for cinema, with for the second season, the best work from Y˘ko Kanno with Cowboy Bebop. I don't want to be the devil's advocate, but a lot of people wants to see Guilty Crown, even if they know it's ridiculous, because it's very appealing with its soundtrack and visuals, which are a great asset in this kind of anime. For that, Guilty Crown didn't fail at all.

Anyway, I don't think I gave a 10 to a post 2000 anime. Maybe I would give a 10 to Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Cowboy Bebop, Grave of the Fireflies, stuff like that.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on September 30, 2013, 01:56:17 AM
Well, Guilty Crown is easily in the running with Fractale for the biggest "punts" on storytelling in the last decade of Anime.  So much potential; such terrible payoff.   Pretty visuals still go a long ways.  This is a visual medium, after all.

The GITS:SAC are still the most technically sound TV anime series from a production, design, sound, acting and writing stand point.  It might not have the emotional swells of other series, but it's easily the deepest work we have to go to for series Animes.   Though don't skip over the fact it's still probably the most expensive TV anime series (each season separately, actually) that isn't named Samurai 7.   You get much better staffs and a lot more time when you have a lot more money.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on September 30, 2013, 03:42:52 AM
The haredest shows for me to rate are those that you guys (and other people's opinions that I value and usually agree with) really like a show, and then I watch it, and I don't like it. I feel bad about rating it low because I feel like it's my fault. To give a recent example, Kino's Journey, I watched it on the premise that I wanted another 9-tier anime to watch, and it simply wasn't. I'm still not entirely happy I rated it right, I started from 7 and have dropped it down to a 6, then a 5. Perhaps the 4 will come.

The reason why this is relevant is because whilst I didn't get that here concerning SnK, I did have an awful difficulty in rating it for a short while because of how good I wanted it to be. It's a bit like with Fractale, I really loved the show to begin with but it just didn't meet the standards of it's first episode. SnK didn't fail as badly as Fractale did though, which is some solace.

I think we can be objective, despite our personal opinion.

We can be objective about only a few very specific things, apart from that everything is totally subjective. You can back up your opinions, but in the end they are still objective. Trying to write an objective review is absolute folly, it's simply unattainable, more to the point it's rather arrogant, since you claiming that your opinion is the only truth. That is why the word "objective" should never be used. Also, people who feel the need to say "I rate subjectively" as if there's some option to it don't understand it either.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on September 30, 2013, 04:12:11 AM
A lot of series sputter out as they go along.  Since they came up, we should probably point out how the 2 main examples of "well, that went badly" cause problems for rating.

Fractale: first 2 episodes are pretty much Ghibli in all but name.  Then the series careens off the road, into the ocean and explodes in one of those fireballs you only see in movies. 

Guilty Crown: Brilliant design, visuals, production values and concept.  But it was pretty much a train laden with oil-containers, on fire and out of control the entire time.  Oh, it was so amazing to watch, right until it blew up half of a Canadian town.  Can't we think of Canada?

AoT is obviously neither of those, but a 6 is probably appropriate.  I really didn't "finish" it in the way most other did, but I can appreciate what it was up to.  Doesn't mean I want to watch every minute of it.  In totality, it's above mediocre, if there's moments that make it hurt.  It's hard to drop a series too far with some of the fight scenes it has & executes so well.    It's no Hunter X Hunter, but it's a solid work. 

Oh, and I think Araki's ceiling is Nagai's floor, as directors.  Just saying. :)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Garuda on September 30, 2013, 05:01:29 AM
The haredest shows for me to rate are those that you guys (and other people's opinions that I value and usually agree with) really like a show, and then I watch it, and I don't like it. I feel bad about rating it low because I feel like it's my fault.

I totally understand, and that's what I fear when I'm rating a show praised by reviewers and the forum. Maybe "Personal enjoyment" would have been more accurate than "Personal opinion" when I was talking about subjectivity. I always try to regulate my personal enjoyment by "analyzing" where the show did good and did bad from a general perspective, or if it did something new, original. Then, I compare these elements with the genre of the anime / movie, with what it matters for it, and what it tried to accomplish.

Of course, it will never be an objective rating, but you can call it an "objectivized subjectivity" lol, or at least, a fair rating.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Fumoffu!! on September 30, 2013, 07:51:48 AM
Personal enjoyment and personal opinion are only different if you're not being honest with yourself. If you think a show is good but you get bored, then it's most likely that the show is doing something wrong that is causing you to feel bored and/or disengaged. On the other hand there are shows like Symphogear where it is not immediately clear why you like it, however that does not mean there aren't reasons for why you like it, it means that the show, although it appears to be doing everything wrong, is actually doing stuff right.

It's why I also disagree with the idea of "guilty pleasure" anime, in that you enjoy it but your sensibilities don't think your peers would rate it highly. I used to say that Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou was my guilty pleasure anime, because I enjoyed it and certianly a lot of people here didn't like it at all, however I realised it's wrong for me to think that I like a show for no reason. It doesn't make sense does it? However by saying it's a guilty pleasure I'm saying "this show is bad but I like it anyway for no reason". The show has obviously done some things right for you to enjoy it so much.

That's why I say there is no difference between personal enjoyment and personal opinion. When I didn't like Kino's journey I wondered why it was, and so I asked a friend of mine who also didn't like it, and when they explained I identified with it and I knew why I didn't like it, it made a whole lot of sense. I wouldn't just not like a show for no reason, and unless the reason was weirdly personal (maybe the character reminded you of your dead dog or something, or maybe you hate talking motorbikes because of a traumatic incident etc.) then it is more than justified to form an opinion of the anime from how much you enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: thanosmat on September 30, 2013, 08:16:16 AM
It's a matter of scale, if you call your nine, ten instead.

I don't want to get too grammar nazi but this sentence just made me go 60-0 into a brick wall with that comma after the 'nine'.

English is not my native language, so grammar errors are common in my posts.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on September 30, 2013, 08:37:02 AM
The haredest shows for me to rate are those that you guys (and other people's opinions that I value and usually agree with) really like a show, and then I watch it, and I don't like it. I feel bad about rating it low because I feel like it's my fault. To give a recent example, Kino's Journey, I watched it on the premise that I wanted another 9-tier anime to watch, and it simply wasn't. I'm still not entirely happy I rated it right, I started from 7 and have dropped it down to a 6, then a 5. Perhaps the 4 will come.

This is me in reverse this season, I gave out three 9's like a madman and not one person so far is on board with me on any of them. There's an impulse to lower the rating in order to get in line, and I definitely started second-guessing myself. Already I've moved Servant x Service down to 8 because I don't think it stands next to Usagi Drop as a SoL. 

English is not my native language, so grammar errors are common in my posts.

I'm sorry to make a joke at your expense, I just thought the way that comma changed the impact was interesting.

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Garuda on September 30, 2013, 10:21:41 AM
Personal enjoyment and personal opinion are only different if you're not being honest with yourself.

Indeed, you're right. But not being truly honest with myself allows me to see what I didn't see first, and to give a more "representative" rating of the "real" qualities of the show. This is also a question of taste, and I can dislike something good because it's just not my thing. Of course, I won't rate it as high as the others who love it, but I can be close, and I genuinely want to acknowledge its value.

It's why I also disagree with the idea of "guilty pleasure" anime, in that you enjoy it but your sensibilities don't think your peers would rate it highly.

It also works in the reverse. For example, I had a lot of fun watching OreImo or Haganai, and if I strictly follow my personal enjoyment, I would maybe give them an 8, or I would even give a 10 for Code Geass. But in my opinion, they don't deserve such a high rating given their real qualities, contrary to shows like Monster, which I love, and are also truly great. It matters for me to make a distinction.

English is not my native language, so grammar errors are common in my posts.

Don't worry, I try to avoid mistakes, but I'm sure there are errors in my posts too.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on October 01, 2013, 06:13:39 AM
Final:

I'd say it ended the way it should: I don't expect any final conclusion to the whole mystery behind the titans in this episode anyway. Sure, it was a very open ending but the way it was wrapped up was pretty well-done.

I'm not sure if the creators plan to continue this series; if not, it's a huge waste. There's still so much areas yet to be explored, especially one with Eren's key. And it certainly looks like there's a lot more left that this series can offer.

But we'll see. Maybe it's not announced now, but I don't think anyone can rule out that it's ended for good.

--

My thoughts on Attack on Titan:

It started off as a series with a lot of shock value. Now that's great start for a series. The same director that did Death Note certainly has a thing for theatrics and over-the-top gruesome action series. Plus, the storytelling aspect is very much gripping, from the huge mystery surrounding the origins of the titans to mankind's losing battle against them. It's a well-thought concept that makes this series novel. Even the plot is intelligent, especially the expedition arc on how it was planned and executed.

But there were several flaws to Attack on Titan. One, as many could tell, it was over-the-top and it tries too hard to be intense. You see, tension isn't always all shouting, yelling and being GARRR. Sometimes it's done to the point that it's occasionally frustrating. Two, the plot holes are evident with the revelation of the identities of Eren being the first human titan, and Annie being the second one. Mikasa thought the female titan was Annie because she looked the part... and funnily enough, I think every viewer thinks that too. Three, the pacing is inconsistent. It gets exhilarating whenenever the humans for their lives against the titans but anytime beside that, it's either draggy or dry. The pacing could've been more consistent to make the show steadily engaging.

It's a solid 7/10 for me. On an unrelated note, Eren's seiyuu Kaji Yuuki has always voiced pathetic male leads... boy, is it a relief to see him voice one that I don't hate so much.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: KS on October 01, 2013, 01:00:10 PM
8/10 for me.  I don't lowball shows just for being shonen action tinted and it was about the only show in a long time (and probably the only one for the foreseeable future) that I could watch with my IRL friends and that we could both enjoy on the same level which is a huge rarity nowadays.  Plus it was overall just plain fun and a great blockbuster action style series with larger than life characters engaging in larger than life battles, with larger than life foes with an air of mystery to it that can lead to some pretty interesting discussions.  Like for example me and my friend had a discussion last night about his theory that the story about the walls being underneath the city could mean they are on some Dyson Sphere of sorts.  I mean how much do we really know about the world the characters are in?  They say it's Earth, but all anyone knows is that they've been living behind the walls for over a century (4-5 generations) now and nobody we know has seen or been able to comment on the world outside the walls for a while now.  Thus his theory isn't entirely easy to dismiss and for all we know maybe it is the far future and this isn't even Earth ala the movie Dark City.  The possibilities for future reveals are pretty tantalizing and really that's what this series has always been about, keeping people interested, engaged, entertained and astonished.  I think people underestimate that sort of thing these days and to be honest I realize now how I used to take it for granted or even seem to frown upon it as lesser entertainment now that we live in this era of TV anime that seem to love to be strictly about otaku for otaku and a more niche special interest style of instant and often sexual wish-fulfillment gratification as opposed to a more mainstream/general/layered style of gratification and interest where the characters and audience are forced to roll with the punches and take the ups with the downs both of which have consequences more often than not.

If I had to cite some flaws they'd be the show rarely allowing a simple conversation just to be a simple conversation and what I mean by that is everybody always has to be super serious and deathly intense about seemingly everything and sometimes it could get a bit much and break suspension of disbelief in unexpected places with me going, "Who talks that intensely over something like that".  Also sometimes the show can really suffer from talking head syndrome, but other than the Trial of Eren segments I'm honestly not getting the complaints about the pacing at all.  I found this first series covered a lot of ground even if there's still many mysteries obviously left to be revealed.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Gadget on April 26, 2014, 12:19:41 AM
OVA 2

Sorry for trolling an old series. But EGG BEATS PORK CHOPS!

A cute story on one of my favorites characters the Potatoes Girl. It also gives a short reason why Jean wants to be in the Military Police. Commander  Pyxis  is a laugh. What a drunk.
Reiner Braun and Annie Leonhart  got suck into the cooking and hunting competition. Nice to see the ever so serious Reiner got told off my Sasha.
At least no Eren and his tear jerking speeches. No we can see why Mikasa is so strong. She did a lot of training by her self. Her abds could put many fighters to shame.
Overall, a fun OVA. Never expect that after watching the very serious and sad first ova.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Archon on May 08, 2014, 02:14:39 PM
I'm a huge SnK fan, it's probably my favorite anime in recent memory, so of course I watched the most recent OVA. I was very disappointed that it was just some silly slice of life thing with none of the gravity, darkness, or epic visual sequences that the show is normally comprised of. Especially since we're not getting a season 2 until 2015. On the bright side as well as a season 2 there are gonna be those 2 spin off animes, though I doubt I'll watch the comedy one. The manga has 2 ongoing spin off's right now as well, which I found rather surprising. The most well known anime that make it into the mainstream, like Naruto or Bleach, don't usually get spin off series in anime or manga form, so SnK getting two was a bit of a shocker. I was also surprised when I learned of Soul Eater Not, but I was so disappointed by the premise that I like to pretend it doesn't exist anyways.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Kiniest on May 08, 2014, 02:49:29 PM
Soul Eater Not isn't that bad. It's just the writer taking liberties with his own world to see what else he can do with it.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Archon on May 08, 2014, 02:57:29 PM
That's cool, as a writer myself I feel it's always good to experiment and push yourself, and I'm sure some people will like Soul Eater Not, but I will not. Its just a matter of personal taste, but it's pretty terrible IMHO.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on April 01, 2017, 12:52:40 PM
S2 is here, and its mostly the same as it has always been. Loud, bombastic, rather monotone, and very momentum-dependant. Also, in case you missed them last season, we start with a recap montage.

And there are whales and dinosaurs in the OP. I can no longer take this seriously anymore.

Ok thats an exaggeration. Still this really wasnt a very strong episode. The reveal they gave away in the trailers was handled fairly competently (really the line about "our kind" raises all kinds of questions), and I liked Hanji's reaction to the walls-in-titans revelation. It really does explain the walls themselves since, lest we forget, this is a mecha show after all.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Gadget on April 01, 2017, 05:46:58 PM
S2 is here, and its mostly the same as it has always been. Loud, bombastic, rather monotone, and very momentum-dependant. Also, in case you missed them last season, we start with a recap montage.

It the formula that  works. So stick to it.

Hanji's goes all Batman. Wonder if Levi was around, I think he'll drop Pastor Nick. It's only 12 episode. So I don't think Eren will reach the basement.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 01, 2017, 11:59:07 PM
S2 1:

Forewarning, I've been reading the manga.

Pacing this episode makes sense if you literally just finished watching the last episode of season 1, and is rather slow otherwise. At least it's easy to see Shingeki no Kyojin hasn't lost it's teeth.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on April 02, 2017, 05:05:08 AM
S2 1:

More than 3 years after the first season? It's about time!

Everything I love (and hate) about this show remains: the intrigue and mystery behind the Titans' origin, the excessive yelling and overly-dramatic scenes, and more. I admit that I didn't remember much about the ending of the first season, except that Anna is trapped in her cocoon and the people are left with more questions than answers about the Titans.

But now, just from this first episode, we are already presented with a few hypotheses:

- Only Humans can become Abnormals, unlike the other Titans. All of them? Inconclusive; there's no proof to say that not all can become them.
- The Abnormals can fully function like ordinary humans in their abnormal form. My previous suspicion was that their capacities are somewhat impaired whenever they're in that form.

But the biggest question now is, are all Abnormals human? Eren and Anna are, but the simian Abnormal doesn't seem so. It boils back to the original pressing question: where do the Titans come from?

This is fun all over again. Plus, this is one show Araki Tetsuro is doing right... God help us if he does another Kabaneri or HOTD.

edit:

Oh, and I almost forgot: MOTHERF**KING TITAN WHALES??
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: gedata on April 03, 2017, 10:05:38 AM
Only Humans can become Abnormals, unlike the other Titans

"Abnormals" aren't the same as the those that can change between being human and Titan. It's just a term for Titan's that move erratically. Mike assumed the Beast Titan was one because of how it was wandering aimlessly ignoring him for a bit. It's pretty clear that it isn't since it speaks.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sidenote on April 07, 2017, 08:50:03 AM
S2 Ep. 1:

Good so far... so far... :'(.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 08, 2017, 10:25:41 AM
S2 2:

In which Sasha is a badass, yeahyuhzz!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on April 08, 2017, 06:48:39 PM
2:

Liked it a lot. Its nice to see Titan take its parallel plot threads and actually turn them into proper character arcs. Its this kind of robust storytelling that really makes me love this show, and really what sets this apart from shows Araki's penchant for monotonicity ruined, e.g. Kurozuka and Kabaneri. Despite everything holding this show down, Kyojin is just well written; so much so that I can just not really care about how its presented in a uniformly loud and monotone manner.

That said, Araki has this eye for orchestrating personal climaxes really well. Think the Sasha moment here or the moment early in last season when Mikasa found herself out of gas and surrounded. Even his worst shows (e.g. Guilty Crown) have these kinds of nice moments.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Gadget on April 08, 2017, 09:46:16 PM
S2 2:

In which Sasha is a badass, yeahyuhzz!!!!!!!!

She was almost written off by Hajime Isayama until the editors protest. In the manga, she;s really bad ass with a bow and arrow. She could almost stand toe to toe  with Mikasa when killing other people.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on April 09, 2017, 04:54:35 AM
2:

I'm intrigued by what the priest knows. I believe it's not just blind faith (of whatever) that's keeping him from spilling the beans; he has a valid reason for keeping mum. We just don't know what for, but it definitely has something to do with the construction of the walls. Was the construction made so long ago that people didn't even know the origins, or were they made so secretly that even the military didn't even know?

And Sasha's past is a reference to how humanity has worked throughout history. Usually, it's the stronger civilization that pillages minorities (for Sasha's case, her notNative-American heritage). Not sure if there has been any example of a minority deliberately giving up their heritage for the sake of humanity, because well, nothing like this has ever happened in real life for us.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Gadget on April 15, 2017, 01:04:41 PM
3 or 28

It make remember how I was afraid of the dark when I was a child. If I was the squad leader,  I got a 1000 lumens tactical torchlight.

To be honest, I think it capture fear much better then then manga. And it feels 'tighter'. Maybe the production is concentration on a limited arc. But if fear is the only thing that SnK can relay on, by episode 6 or 7, the audience would be numb to fear anymore.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on April 17, 2017, 04:20:50 PM
3:

You know how OPs and EDs usually contain spoilers if you look for them. Well I went looking for them and the ED contains a frame in which a King oversees his children as they eat the flesh of a human corpse. If I were to guess this means the royal family are titan shifters.

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on April 22, 2017, 06:20:46 PM
4:

I actually quite like the episode titles in this show.

Ok, I think its time to make the what we can guess so far without reading the manga list.

- Ymir can transform (Duh)
- Ymir ate that person near Bertholt and Reiner. As we have seen with Eren transformed humans have a penchant for mindlessness. This has important consequences because then it is not immediate which titans aer humans.
- All humans can be inducted into titanhood, but it is likely that not all titans are humans. The Beast Titan says "we reside in the napes of our necks" but it is unclear if by 'we' he means shifters or all titans.
- Beast Titan is definitely a human.
- Beast titan's and Annie's domination power over titans is imperfect.
- Conny's village was exclusively popoulated by (latent) titan shifters already, and the Beast titan has the power to forcefully induce titan transformations.
- Alternately, Conny's village was, in Conny's absence, given titanhood in whatever mysterious way Eren's father gave eren titanhood, and then the beast titan forcefully induced transformation.
- Titanhood is probably not genetic. (?)
- Ymir is distant royalty of within the walls. She understood the language on the herring box in the castle inside the walls. That or it was some really ancient herring, and everything predated the walls, and Ymir is from outside the walls and knows this language that is being preserved outside in a place Reiner et al. arent from.
- Btw Bertholt and Reiner are probably not from the walls.
- There are very clearly still humans beyond the walls.
- The royalty of the walls are titans. That, or they are just random cannibals, which is unlikely.
- Krista is royalty? This certainly explains this lampshaded dark past of hers if the royalty is cannibals, but doesnt explain why she is in the damn scouts of all places. Likely she is from a house that has fallen very much out of favour, or she could be from the main line and idk killed someone and been exiled.
- Krista is not a titan. Again, Titanhood is probably not genetic.
- Reiner is likely a titan, but is a different faction of titan shifter than Ymir.
- Ymir acquired her powers quite recently, in particular not long before Bertholt and Reiner. Also If I were to guess Annie, Bertholt and Reiner are all from the same hometown outside the walls. Annie has already exhibited domination powers so she might be the mastermind here.
- Reiner does in fact lift.
- Reiner looks like the armored titan.
- Ymir knows a language

- How does a "village" outside the walls even exist? The existence of titans simply does not allow for agricultural (ergo settled) modes of living unless you have a good means of defense against titans. This means whatever place exists outside the walls is either nomadic, is itself titan-walled, or might be defended by titan legions of sorts. I think the first two options are more likely. You cant argue being on an Island saves your country since titans are less dense than humans by far and thus float.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on April 22, 2017, 09:23:16 PM
4:

This is the stuff that made the original season great. Despair closing on all sides, the heroes manage to hold out for a bit out of pure badassery, eventually succumb to overwhelming odds, then crazy twists happen.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on April 23, 2017, 05:08:23 AM
4:

Talk about a cliffhanger.

Speaking of which, it puts some things into perspective. Ymir calling Conny crazy is just a mechanism of denial before shit hits the fan. Titans in human form (or humans gaining ability to turn into Titans?) are perfectly possible, and we've known this since the first season. Guess Eren and Annie aren't the only Titans in the guild.

Got to say, this episode has some of the best one-shots/screenshots I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on April 29, 2017, 10:11:42 AM
5:

I expected a lot from this episode.

And it sucked.

EDIT: well that is a bit unfair. But I do really think that this ep was a drop in quality. For one the key dialogue in the flashback was done in a rather simplistic manner; its as if Krista has no defense mechanisms for when someone calls her out, which strikes me as a consequence of strange character writing. Secondly the deus ex machina could have been done better simply by hewing to the standard SnK tactic of showing that a rescue is coming or at least emphasising in some capacity that the rescue was likely in the given situation. Neither was done.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on April 30, 2017, 05:17:19 AM
5:

Another interesting theory dished out: how many people are aware that they can transform into Titans? Well, this should be a no-brainer by now: Annie is a prime example of that already. The more important question is, why didn't she transform earlier? That could help prevented the deaths of the seniors (as helpless as the situation seemed to be).
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on April 30, 2017, 06:18:33 AM
There is still a significant case for the idea that titan transformation is highly stigmatized. It was only shortly after Eren's transformation and the battle for Trost that Annie appeared bringing with it the idea that titan transformers had some hidden malicious agenda. That is to say if Ymir reveals her transformation earlier she has a hard time answering the question of why she didnt come out earlier, what she has to hide, etc. Eren had the advantage of showing his powers in a circumstance where he could rather fortuituously, clearly demonstrate his loyalties, all before the military knew of malicious titan shifters with hidden agendae.

Honestly I think the only reason Ymir revealed her powers was that Krista was about to die. Probably she would have let Reiner and Bertholt die.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on April 30, 2017, 08:32:49 PM
Well, Eren also didn't intentionally unleash his powers originally, because he didn't know he had them.  He became that titan form during a hopeless battle and afterward he was treated with fear and suspicion for a good while.  It is only when someone took a risk that he was allowed to prove himself.  It is unclear whether Annie truly has any malicious intent or not, or, at least, whether she is on the same side as the other abnormal titans that attacked before.  Her titan was not seen at the first invasion.  She might just be an anarchist who enjoys running amok with her powers when it suits her.  I mean, what the **** else was she doing running around when she first appeared?

The other thing is that Ymir doesn't seem to be in league with them either.  She appears to be out for her own benefits, and those benefits just happen to, right now, coincide with the safety of Krista.  She grew up in a rather pitiful environment, so if she's always been a titan, she could have done a lot more to make her life easier.  Instead, she puts herself into harm's way without intending to reveal herself to anybody.

And, finally, there is the Beast Titan, who seems to be utterly different from anything we've seen thus far.  He barely seems to be aware of what is going on or why things are the way they are.  Whether he has any hatred of humans seems to be vague at best, though he doesn't seem to give two shits if they live or die.  He seems more methodical in his approach to things, without any clear goal in mind that we can tell.  We also can pretty damn well figure out by this point that Cony's entire village was turned into titans by someone, so we know there is someone out there running amok either performing experiments on humans or trying to attack them in league with the first group of titans from a different vantage point.  If Eren can be turned into a titan after a magical injection, we an infer that Ymir and others probably had this same thing happen to them.  It also seems as if Reiner is turning titan, so maybe the titans can turn humans into titans by biting them, zombie style.  I'm trying to remember if at any point beforehand if someone has been bitten and lived to gauge a basis for this theory, but Reiner sure as hell seems to be going feral.  Though this also might just be a function of whatever turned the village into titans rather than a normal thing for all titans.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on May 01, 2017, 07:08:37 PM
There is also one side revelation: Ymir killed Reiner's friend as a Titan. I'm not really sure what's the point of this, maybe it's the question of whether Titans have impaired self-control (of their hunger or whatever).
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on May 06, 2017, 03:12:20 AM
5:

Another interesting theory dished out: how many people are aware that they can transform into Titans? Well, this should be a no-brainer by now: Annie is a prime example of that already. The more important question is, why didn't she transform earlier? That could help prevented the deaths of the seniors (as helpless as the situation seemed to be).

I have a thought:

Rather than the Humans having escaped the Titans, what we're actually watching is a Human Farm. Whether the Human-Titans are just the diseased that have been exiled or there's a more sci-fi aspect to it, I don't know.  But with all of the discussion, that really seems like the direction this is all headed.

It would explain a lot of the issues. Numbers have to be culled to prevent resources from being out-stripped, yet transforming into Titan mode would eventually be a social stigma because it means you're out of control. (Think a lot of Werewolf lore for example.)  No one is truly allowed to leave, as outside forces would come into play.  Everyone that isn't among the true leaders doesn't need to know any details. This ends up some weird Masonic-like leadership system.  ???

It also would solve the issue of people with at least ~1880s tech being so pathetic about fighting Titans. The Ancient Greeks would have had the problem solved in under a few months.  But, if everything is sabotaged before it becomes viable against the Titans, it makes perfect sense.  The non-shifting Titans end up being the low-class from the leadership view, so they don't care what happens to them.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 06, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
6:

That scene was sexy as hell. Perfect music, immense impact, and Eren caps it off with the perfect line. Shame about the CGI though.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 06, 2017, 09:52:28 PM
6:

Well, that quite literally escalated quickly.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 06, 2017, 11:49:03 PM
I'm sure literally everyone is going to say this, but the way the reveal was handled was really clever. You read the first line, and it almost doesn't register what they said. Then it immediately cuts away and you're thinking, 'Wait, what? Did I imagine that? Why is no one reacting?' Then the second line drops, and there's no more room for doubt. Even if you knew before hand, if you didn't know the exact scene, you'd still never see it coming. I'm having a blast watching people's reactions on youtube.

Gotta be the best reveal scene in anime.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 07, 2017, 05:39:07 AM
6:

(http://theimagehost.net/upload/95e63b41897ee376d6a2394e2554478b.jpg)

And they said Shingeki no Kyojin didnt have great reaction faces.

So, yeah, this was a monstrously good episode. Could feel the tension in the air; I swear everyone was losing their minds, not just Reiner. For example Mikasa, who just up and cut the two since she was too caught in the moment to appreciate the fact that she gave the two of them free transformations.
Still I have to say, SnK does great human-on-human violence. Felt very satisfying to see Bertholt get cut open.

As for Annie, she's always seemed to be the most cutthroat of these three. What Im wondering is how her powers of domination factor into their relationship. We know Titans to be somewhat innately psychic, else the powers of domination Annie and Beast Titan exhibited wont work over long distances. Probably Annie was the boss among the three, and the other two feared her. I cant imagine something more dangerous to a titan than mind control. In fact I find it unlikely Reiner carved anything into Annie's hand - that kind of invalidates Reiner's reaction of sheer terror about having almost died numerous times - and more likely that Annie just picked him up and read him, if that is possible.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 07, 2017, 09:42:28 AM
I don't think I've ever noticed anything that would lead me to believe that they're psychic.  More like the other "common" titans are just afraid of these "super" titans and wont act unless allowed.  That seemed to be the case with the Beast Titan at least, and Ymir's Titan wasn't able to do any kind of controlling over the attacking ones and Eren... well Eren is just insane anyway.

Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: gedata on May 07, 2017, 02:14:18 PM
Felt very satisfying to see Bertholt get cut open.

As for Annie, she's always seemed to be the most cutthroat of these three.

Not anymore she isn't

(http://i.imgur.com/3kYtvkg.png)
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 07, 2017, 07:05:13 PM
I don't think I've ever noticed anything that would lead me to believe that they're psychic.  More like the other "common" titans are just afraid of these "super" titans and wont act unless allowed.  That seemed to be the case with the Beast Titan at least, and Ymir's Titan wasn't able to do any kind of controlling over the attacking ones and Eren... well Eren is just insane anyway.

There was the bit in S1 where Annie summoned lesser titans from all over the forest of giant trees to break her out of a Scouts trap (by 'eating' her out). If, as you suggest, the relationship was simply a social one -i.e. of fear- these lesser titans would have had no reason to help Annie way back when, and she called them from very long distances just by shouting. Either there was some complicated titan communication going on or Annie just psychically commanded them.
Perhaps Annie could only control the mindless titans, but titan shifters can be pretty mindless so I dont think thats a distinction. I do think Eren is an anomalous titan since he started out killing titans whereas it seems Ymir spent some time as a common maneating titan. I cant say Eren isnt reduced to his "base instincts" in titan form - its more like his instincts differ from normal titans in that Eren just wants to destroy everything in the world. Like you said, Eren is crazy.

In any case this psychic potential of titans is imperfect. Annie couldnt control Eren and the Beast titan exhibits only very imperfect control over the lesser titans. As you mentioned it seems to be peculiar to Annie and the beast titan.

Since season 2 we're being forced to seriously consider the idea that most titans are humans, both in ambiguous hints dropped by the beast titan (we reside in the napes of our necks), and the implication that Conny's village was transformed into (lesser) titans. This suggests the idea that titans have some capacity for thought and social behavior, only in very animalistic, reduced forms, and I cant think of any more basic impulse than selfishness. And selfishness is the only thing I assume in the Annie example, since I argue that a selfish titan would not run to Annie's aid when Annie is not in a position of power. Besides, the null hypothesis here is that titans just do what the plot demands they do, and while that will always be true, I have a bit more faith in the internal logic of this world. You could explain away the rest of Annie's seeming control over lesser titans back then to coercion through power, but I dont think you could explain that incident. Titans dont normally eat other titans, and the stupider, lesser titans dont do that unless made to.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Rei on May 10, 2017, 02:02:14 AM
In any case this psychic potential of titans is imperfect. Annie couldnt control Eren and the Beast titan exhibits only very imperfect control over the lesser titans. As you mentioned it seems to be peculiar to Annie and the beast titan.
itans dont normally eat other titans, and the stupider, lesser titans dont do that unless made to.

Well, since the power to command to zombified people is supposedly only held by Eren's special Titan (reason why the other camp wants to get him), I have still no idea why Annie's shout lured them and excited their appetite. There was also no reason given to the Beast's presence and words affecting the regular titanized villagers. At the end, either it will be explained with a roll or left to us (maybe any of the "Unique Titans" is able to affect in a limited way on the zombie ones, but Eren's is the only one able to really move them according to its thoughts).
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on May 10, 2017, 05:27:14 AM
6:

...holy crap. Didn't see that coming.

I actually thought Reiner was saying some bullshit out of sheer fatigue or something, because it really came from left field. Now, even more theories are being thrown into the fray, especially the extent of abnormal Titans' influence to the common ones. It could simply be, that Eren can also influence them but he's never aware of that. Or maybe this influence power is not common across all abnormal Titans.

The more pressing issue is the motivation of these abnormal Titans. It seems now that they're not all on the same page: Beast Titan and Annie are against humanity (for what specific reason, we can't tell) and now so is Reiner. Eren is obviously on humanity's side. Their common goal has always been about one thing: getting Eren to be on their side. But Reiner mentioned that all he wanted was to go back home. Then what about the others? I don't think they have any innate psychic powers to identify each other; they could've just learned about Eren after his high-profiled transformation. Otherwise, Reiner shouldn't be surprised at Ymir's transformation.

I'm just taken aback from the entire revelation (in a positive way); Armored Titan and Giant Titan are the two main antagonists of the show, and it's revealed in such an unexpected way. Heck, I'm still surprised that Ymir is actually alive; I was under the impression that she died from the last episode.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: gedata on May 10, 2017, 12:05:05 PM
6:

I for sure loved the way that line was framed as some throwaway lines when they clearly weren't. It was done in a way that wasn't meant to register properly the first time, or at all to speed readers.

(http://i.imgur.com/EiTtZNh.jpg)

I thought that Tetsuro Araki with all his love for absurdly music and camera might miss the point of, but for a moment, the anime was subdued, which is a good thing. It still makes more sense to me in manga form since it's easier for information to get lost on a page then it is with a frame of animation (less things to focus on and no one "speed watches" anime) but the anime did as well as it could have.

I more or less dug this episode, but since I knew what was coming, I was just waiting for the shoe to drop and it took a bit longer than I would've liked since they REALLY wanted to end it where it did. Next episode will be dope as **** though.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 13, 2017, 08:22:12 PM
6:

Its cool and all, and I like the concept, but the pacing went to shonen hell here. Perhaps pacing is the wrong word for it since it usually relates to how quickly a series goes through its major plot points. In any case, the tempo of this fight was very slow for Shingeki no Kyojin.

The best thing about the Expedition beyond the walls/Female Titan arc was how it was all incredibly quick; the field of play was constantly shifting - and I mean constantly. Here this plays out like a well executed shonen battle. Its like watching people play cards.
Also Eren got good at judo offscreen.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 13, 2017, 09:25:27 PM
6:

It's really strange how a plot revelation can be so sudden and stirring, and then the no-holds-barred throwdown that follows meanders about in flashbacks. Eren's little thought bubble last episode was all we needed in terms of dealing with sympathy for the traitors; we don't need Mikasa, Conny, and Eren again doing the same routine. The fact that grappling was featured makes sense, but slows down the fight even more. You could compensate by reinforcing how hopeless the fight was beforehand, but again, those scenes drowned in flashbacks.

A letdown, especially after last week. 
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on May 14, 2017, 05:19:01 AM
7 (shouldn't this be episode 7?):

Titan MMA FTW. I had fun watching all this, I can't fault much plot-wise for an episode that's basically about slugfest. I'm just surprised that Colossal Titan is not fully CGI, which takes away some artistic merit for me. Animation-wise, this show is still top notch.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 14, 2017, 01:20:20 PM
Conny ... doing the same routine.

Actually I thought Conny's bit was done well. When Conny first asked where Bertholdt and Reiner were I had to do a double take. I think it nicely doubles to show the confusion among the scouts' ranks when the two transformed.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 14, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
It was nice, and it hurts to cut it, but clearly they needed to cut something.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Sidenote on May 15, 2017, 08:05:49 AM
7:

Hanji getting off when Eren nods to her in Titan form.

Mikasa letting out her evil aura when Annie is flirting/wrestling with Eren.

New variation on Eren's Beserk theme.

Eren's back muscles.

It was a good episode.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 20, 2017, 05:16:50 PM
8:

Show sure ****s around with these steam burns. I mean Im supposed to watch this file of people who got all these steam burns while Bertholdt who was inside the bloody explosion walks away all peachy?
For that matter that ****er who got smashed over the head with a glass bottle should be bleeding out of his skull. And just about everyone in this show should be physical wrecks from all that ODM gear related crashing.

Flashback was way overdone imo. We already know about Eren's tendency to pick fights as a child; the point of this flashback was to convey how Mikasa and Armin felt left behind, even abandoned as it were. Flashback has an awful lot of fluff for such a simple task. I would even go as far as to guess that in the manga it was probably just a panel or two.

Also Im betting Ymir is dead, as in properly dead and gone for good. Hell, Bertholdt had the motivation to kill her. Not that it makes a difference because itlll be 2100 by the time we get any answers.

EDIT: I guess not. Thats what I get for posting before finishing the episode I suppose.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Gadget on May 20, 2017, 08:08:49 PM
8
Hange frightens me.

Materials are scarce. So bottle is thin out during manufacture. I bet the glass are even thinner than our Coke bottles. And we know all Titans Shifters got Deadpool like healing abilities. And Bertholdt and Ymir was protected by the Titans body.

I think some thing causes people to become dumb Titans. Air? Water? Vaccines? I think Connie's villagers became the Titans in the inner wall. This is the only explanation of the Titans influx without a wall breech. Those Titans that can think, it must have something to change them into Shifters. This will be conspiracy Alex Jones stuff. I bet the church know some of the answers.

Mikasa is hot. Eren is too stupid to notice that. Something I think Jean is way smarter then Eren.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on May 23, 2017, 05:17:23 AM
8:

Obligatory cool-off episode. Well, I suppose that was in order.

The fun's gonna resume in the next episode.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 23, 2017, 08:18:20 AM
Guys, anyone remember why Eren wanted to kill all the titans?

Yeah, me neither.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Marid King on May 23, 2017, 09:54:59 AM
Is that sarcasm or...
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 23, 2017, 07:39:46 PM
No its actually just me being stupid. But what is true that Eren's motivations are becoming less and less precise with time because they were stated (quite literally) years ago and have seen no development; in the case of the more nuanced motivations beyond they killed mommy, have faded from memory.

Basically I'm been kvetching about the fact that way back in Season 1 they gave Eren more motivation to kill the titans than just they killed my mother. Back then Eren was obsessed with the idea of freedom, and he understood freedom in the naive sense of being allowed to go where he wanted; more than anything he felt entitled to the world. There was this talk of visiting deserts and oceans that had been touched on lightly in the earliest parts of the first season that only really surfaced in a single line in episode 25 when Eren was going apeshit on Annie in his titan form; he said he felt free. This aspect of this character has gotten, **** I dunno, maybe 5-6 minutes of screntime in the entire show.
I like the way this show does characterisation because its quiet and doesnt shy away from unsympathetic characters, but none of these characters ever get to talk for more than a sentence. In Eren's case this was in episode 1 of this season when he comes clean about the fact that munching on Annie felt good before random people barged in shouting about how titans were inside the walls and all that. Thats (a) a lazy way of avoiding Eren actually saying shit important to his character, and (b) makes it such that Mikasa never has to really wonder what Eren is becoming (or has been all this time), i.e. it avoids potentially imminent character conflict. I claim there is an important distinction between characters growing unsympathetic and character motivations literally being forgotten by the show, and S2 has tended towards the latter as far as Eren is concerned.

In this episode Hannes, Mikasa and Armin melancholically ruminate on how the dynamic between them and Eren has never changed over all these years. Thats true. But I fail to see why that isnt precisely the problem. These three have been in character limbo for quite a while,
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on May 28, 2017, 05:32:13 AM
9:

So... Reiner's suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Hmm, interesting.

What's also interesting is the use of the term 'warrior'. Not sure if this is a language among abnormal Titans but if it is, it's a huge revelation: they are somewhat working towards a certain common goal. Or it could just be between Reiner and Bertholdt. I actually like this episode, although nothing's really happening. It's a setup episode where the characters' decisions determine what will happen next.

The question lies on Ymir now; what she plans to do will determine what will happen next.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 28, 2017, 07:33:45 AM
What's also interesting is the use of the term 'warrior'. Not sure if this is a language among abnormal Titans but if it is, it's a huge revelation: they are somewhat working towards a certain common goal. Or it could just be between Reiner and Bertholdt.

If you recall, in the episode where they confront Annie and try to coax her to enter a tunnel, right before she tries to transform she says: "Nevermind. I have failed to become a warrior."

So at the very least its an ideal shared by the three of them.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Starbuckets on May 28, 2017, 10:01:27 AM
9:

So... Reiner's suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Hmm, interesting.


To me this looks much more like a dissociative identity disorder, with one persona being the "soldier", an idealised version of the military recruit fighting for people's freedom within the Walls that was created as a result of the time Reiner spent among his fellow trainees, and the other being the "warrior", the man entrusted with the mission to wipe out humanity. Other than that yeah, he's definitely a broken man.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on May 28, 2017, 12:55:03 PM
9:

Look, I like the concept of Reiner's character and all, but the way they had Ymir just ****ing say everything was pathetic. Its a betrayal, because even though this show likes to stuff things down your mouth, answers are not supposed to be that easy, even if Ymir's entire schtick is supposed to be that she cannot keep her mouth shut when she starts rambling.

As for the monkey... well Ymir suggests here that the beast titan is Reiner and Bertholdt's 'employer', so to speak, and that seeing him there is what got Reiner and Bertholdt so antsy about jumping the gun and grabbing Eren. He might be Annie's father now that I think about it.
I dont like the theory; it makes more sense for the Beast titan to be some sort of rival than some titanic incarnation of a looming project deadline. If the beast titan turns out to be this employer figure Id say that would be a massive plot hole, since it would make far more sense for the beast titan to come help Bertholt and Reiner.
As I understand it the mission for Bertholt, Annie and Reiner was to retrieve Eren since Eren is somehow special (probably Dad's vaccine), the problem being they dont know where he is or what he looks like. Since their approach was to try to kill everyone clearly they want Eren dead or alive. It suggests Eren is probably some kind of titan-shaped biological superweapon that Reiner's masters want removed. Part of the question is how they know about this stuff, and the only forthcoming answer is that there is a class of people - likely including Eren's father - that (somewhat) freely enter and exit the walls.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 28, 2017, 02:30:10 PM
9:

This is the kind of sequence that just pisses me off.  I'm okay with Reiner having a mental disorder, because that adds an interesting quirk to this, and I'm okay with Eren confronting Bertholdt about his actions leading to Eren's mother's death, but I can't stand the rest of this.  Basically, Reiner, Bertholdt and Ymir all have a conversation that seems to be on a level of pure understanding, but of course, Eren isn't on the same level, and more infuriating is "neither is the audience".  This was our moment to get some answers, to find out why the abnormal titans are attacking humanity, to find out what the goal and the motivation was, and to find out what they want to do in the future.

Instead, the writer intentionally says "nah, that mystery is going to be dragged out a while longer" and gives a middle finger to the audience.

**** you.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: gedata on May 30, 2017, 07:50:08 PM
9: How is it possible to speak so long without saying anything?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: SQA on June 02, 2017, 05:25:45 PM
9: How is it possible to speak so long without saying anything?

Ever tuned in to a Congressional Hearing?
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on June 03, 2017, 10:22:11 AM
10:

Well Hannes certainly has changed.
Im not a fan of how they did the Ymir flashback. Its juicy material but a good bit of it we already knew and REALLY didnt need to subject to the flash images over narration treatment. That said it does contain a lot of info.

I think I have Ymir figured out, and also possibly the mystery of Connie's village.
Clue 1 is something weird Ymir says. (@9:30) "Is that after I am going to be eaten by one of your warriors?" But why would Reiner's warriors eat Ymir? Punishment of some sort? That seems like a waste of sentient titan, and as we see in the flashback thats not how Reiner's people do punishment.

Clue 2 is the entire flashback. We know two things. Ymir's people are imprisoned and kept in an enclave where belief in the blood of the king, whatever that is, is illegal. Its also feared and hated to the point where you can have mob lynching for this cult. Secondly the cult isnt a throwaway cult because the punishment of injection and exile is too formal. In fact the punishment is also very strange.

In history exile and excommmunication has commonly been the highest order of punishment. Why not stop at exile? Why injection too? If anything the point of exile is to strip away the physical and spiritual securities of being embedded in society - protection from the titans is clearly the physical security, but what about the spiritual gesture? Excommunication had strong spiritual connotations, so whats the gesture for this incredibly ritualized punishment?
My conjecture is that the injection is a symbolic gesture that effectively means "this is your true, wretched, self". The rest of the theory just fleshes out what you need for this to make sense.

These enclosed people are people who are latently titan transformersTM. This is genetic and peculiar to them; probably only these people have this genetic ability to transform.
Clue 3 is that Ymir could read the ancient castle language. The language was on a tin of tuna, so its not THAT old. The conjecture is that some of Ymir's people live within the walls, and that Connie's village is inhabited by these people. The fact that Connie's village was not monitored heavily like outside the walls means that either nobody (including Connie's village) knows about this. Ymir could understand the language in the castle inside the walls, so its possible that the walls are the homeland of Ymir's people.

Now, for the big question: who are the warriors?
First I need to make an observation. When they injected Ymir's followers and kicked them off the walls, they transformed immediately. Ymir stayed a titan for 60 years after that, and reverted to being a human after eating somebody. Compare this with Eren's injection flashback. For one this absurd period of time didnt pass until he reverts to being human, so he must have eaten somebody immediately. The nearest person around was Eren's father, so I guess thats where he went.
I claim there are two kinds of titans, that correspond to each kind of injection. I'll call them natural titans and unnatural titans. Ymir's people are natural titans. Its unclear how this ability works with inheritance but Eren's mother was some random person from within the walls that his father married after arriving, so my guess is she wasnt of Ymir's people. Im going to guess that Eren is not a natural titan. However, by injection he was given titan power, making him an unnatural titan.

Given how much hate is dumped on Ymir's people it is unlikely they would show any kind of loyalty to Reiner's masters (understood to be the same people confining Ymir's people). Lets also not forget that Titans are incredibly difficult to control, even using other titans - loyalty is an absolute necessity if you are going to weaponize titan shifters. There are two solutions:
1. Reiner and the 'warriors' are people from Ymir's people raised away from Ymir's people and trained to become weaponized titans.
2. Reiner and the warriors are unnatural titans, made titans via injection not unlike Eren's. Their loyalty stems from pre-existing allegiance to Reiner's masters.
2.1. Both; some are of type 1, some of type 2.

Lastly, why does Ymir expect to be eaten?
This one is where im crapshooting the most. Im guessing that you need that to make the serums you use to make titans or induce titans. Either that or just eating a titan shifter allows you to steal their powers assuming you "remember them", sort of like posesssion only backwards.

Let me know what you guys think. There are some inconsistencies here, and I dont think the two injections theory is sufficiently justified.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on June 04, 2017, 05:10:46 AM
10:

Still the biggest secret is not revealed yet (show is still dicking with us) but at Ymir's story is revealed. But to be truthful, a whole lot didn't happen; it's just the question of why Ymir desperately wants to be with Christa despite risking everything instead of putting it off now and risking not seeing her anymore.

Her story's okay, although I still don't understand this whole Warrior thing. When did they actually decide to have a common cause, even after Ymir had Reiner's comrade for breakfast? And who the hell is this Coordinate? Like I said, this show is still dicking with us.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Pebble on June 10, 2017, 07:55:03 PM
11:

Tfw you didnt notice a 10ft tall monster casually crawling up to you. That guy deserved to get eaten. And that scene alone is 20 sins.

And the sudden time-lapsy slowdowns in the action so that characters can talk are thoroughly nonsensical. This show should be better than that.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Gadget on June 10, 2017, 10:31:01 PM
11
The Military Police are incompetent. But Erwin arm got eaten was a shock effect.

The animation starts look look a bit like Berserk. Like the evil Mikasa look. Don't *uck with her, espically when it comes to Eren. I think Eren going to kick ass in titan form.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on June 11, 2017, 05:03:49 AM
11:

Mikasa made it clear that she's focus on saving Eren and only saving Eren. She's probably the most focused character of all, ahead of Bertholdt, Reiner and maybe even Eren. But honestly, this is Armin's episode. I haven't mentioned it earlier, but every major character in this show has a special trait. Eren is sheer persistence. Mikasa is fighting competency. For Armin, it's observation.

A lot of the plot has thickened purely based on Armin's observations on key people's behaviors. And since he recognizes that in order to gain something, something else's gotta give; then he should toy with Bertholdt about Annie's captivity. Again, he's the only person who noticed that Annie is their comrade (purely on deduction) and acted upon it. That's incredible.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: Gadget on June 11, 2017, 09:58:39 AM
But the most bad ass are the horses. They seems to co operate with the Titans. Like the MP who got eaten. The horse just stood there. And during the chaos of the battle, a horse just rammed a Scout. It's like revenge on the humans.

But the most fearsome person is actually Erwin. He realise that Eren is the key to humanity survival. And he will sacrifice EVERYTHING. He has no problems using his Scouts as bait. Even when he go his arm chomp, he still orders his Scouts.

Everyone is desperate. Good thing Eren did not see Mikasa. I bet he'll freak out. Let Bertholdt take the fear. Mikasa willingness to kill Christa/Historia is no surprising seeing how devoted she is to Eren. But even Armin is willing to lie to play mind games with Bertholdt. I agree with AC that he notice Bertholdt is attracted to Annie. But he was willing to use this observation, twisted it around, to mindF**k Bertholdt. It's either everyone is desperate, or their inner animal nature for survival appears. And Reiner in his Titan form cannot do much.
Title: Re: Shingeki no Kyojin
Post by: AC on June 18, 2017, 05:33:16 AM
37:

Oh, it's the final episode.

Just as before, we have some answers... which beget more questions. Eren is hinted to be a Coordinate, somewhat a more formidable form of Titan. A meta-Titan who can summon other Titans, so to speak. Is he the only one? Is this an ability he gained only just now? We can't tell yet. For all we know, the situation remains the same as before: Eren is still the prized commodity.

Other hints: is Ymir's old cult somewhat tied to this Warrior thing? Are all Titan formerly humans? Is there a trigger (or an instigator) to changing humans into Titans? Who is that man on top of Beast Titan? Guess we have to wait until next year for the third season.

Good season, although progress is still thwarted because of this 'complexity paradox' (or the show just dicking with us). Great action sequences all around, although the gap between the first and second seasons was a little long. 7/10.