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The Nihon Review Topic Discussion => Anime => Topic started by: ImperialX on October 01, 2011, 05:08:05 PM

Title: Fate/Zero
Post by: ImperialX on October 01, 2011, 05:08:05 PM
1:

A very dialogue-heavy episode, but I personally loved every second of it because I'm such a big fan of Fate/stay night (the visual novel, excluding the anime of course). I felt that they did a really good job for new viewers so that one can jump into Fate/Zero without prior knowledge of the Fate/series, although having prior knowledge will certainly make many ordinary scenes in the episode feel more emotional, such as the birth of Illya...since people who play F/SN know of their fate. The scenes of Kariya and Sakura show really shows that Urobuchi is behind the script - he's not planning on making this series kiddy-friendly, and I love that aspect considering F/SN is an R18 game in the first place.

Animation quality is amazing as is the OP, so nothing more to say here. Can't wait for more.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on October 01, 2011, 08:10:45 PM
My God, that was slooooow.   If Fate/Zero weren't such an established series, this double episode would have killed fan enthusiasm in five seconds flat.  On the other hand, I do find it insteresting that I know the stories and motives of most of the characters right off the bat and don't have to sit through a series of expositions later on in the show.  For now, I'm sticking with the series because despite being a massive dialogue dump it was very carefully made.  It seems that they're triyng to maintain the Kara no Kyoukai kind of finesse on a television budget... that is assuming ufotable didn't already break the budget on all the pretty colors and the OP.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Aelms on October 02, 2011, 05:19:44 AM
1:

"I ask of you, are you my Master?"

Makes me shiver in awe no matter which rendition of Fate I hear it from.

I don't see how Ufotable can possibly adapt Fate worse than what Deen has already done so I'm prepared to call this a success, especially if the music and animation is any indication at all. With all the set up and character exposition finished with in one episode, the pacing should speed up quite a bit for the series to fit within 12 episodes. It's too bad that the next episode can't come any sooner...

Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: ImperialX on October 02, 2011, 08:59:10 AM
With all the set up and character exposition finished with in one episode, the pacing should speed up quite a bit for the series to fit within 12 episodes.

Fate/Zero is scheduled for two cours.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on October 02, 2011, 10:24:22 AM
Episode 1

One thing for certain is that this series is quite promising in terms of production values with UFOtable behind this.  I liked this episode despite the long introduction since it did set things in motion while establishing some things along the way.  It also looks like people are going to have to dig a bit deeper into the backgrounds of some of the "new" Servants since a few of them may not have instant familiarity to them.  Lancer (Irish legend/historical figure), Caster (French legend/historical figure) and True Assassin (First assassin in the entire world) come to mind on that end.

But, things look good thus far and I am definitely sticking with this until the end regardless.  Also, I wonder how the sequences for True Assassin will go since that should be some pretty nice stuff there.  On a random note, I forget if this is the one that has the Dark Saber Scenario in it since that would look awesome animated too.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Aeroblip on October 03, 2011, 02:30:56 PM
I know nothing of the Fate/Stay story, but the staff behind the show intrigues me.

Can I enjoy this show, while knowing nothing about the Fate/Stay universe? Or do I need to watch Fate/Stay Night and the Unlimited Blade Works movie before watching this?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: ImperialX on October 03, 2011, 02:33:30 PM
I know nothing of the Fate/Stay story, but the staff behind the show intrigues me.

Can I enjoy this show, while knowing nothing about the Fate/Stay universe? Or do I need to watch Fate/Stay Night and the Unlimited Blade Works movie before watching this?

You will enjoy this piece of work much more if you know about the Fate/universe, but since the Fate/stay night and UBW anime suck, it's almost a universal law to play the VN instead. If you seriously have no time, I think you will still be able to watch this - though you will be very confused at times and miss a lot of significance in the certain events.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: HirakuNoShadow on October 04, 2011, 05:17:21 AM
1:

There's no bias against this show from me since I have yet to watch the anime or play the VN of F/SN and UBW nor read the novel itself, but I have a general idea of each characters and the main plot. I thought the first episode was well-done, albeit somewhat slow at times due to the sheer amount of expositions. Ufotable makes my eyes orgasm from the scenery-porn, and Yuki Kajiura hasn't disappointed me with the music either.

I'm slightly skeptical that Ufotable is going to be able to keep up the Kara no Kyoukai caliber animation quality for the remaining 24 episodes. But damn, that OP looked gorgeous (and budget-shattering).

I don't know about you guys, but I think Fate/Zero's Berserker looks awesome...
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on October 07, 2011, 08:34:28 PM
Ep 1

You see, that's the sort of level of detail they should have put into the Fate/Stay Night anime.  For example, just from watching this it's clear that Crest Worms are vital to the identity of the Matou family and their brand of magic.  How many times were Crest Worms mentioned in F/SN?  None.  How about the fact that Emiya is Ilya's father?  Maybe it was hinted at, but I don't ever remember it being explicitly expressed.  How about the idea that the Holy Grail chooses Masters depending on how much they covet it?  Pretty important tidbit as far as motivations go, I'd have thought.  Not according to Yamaguchi Yuji.  That's one of several things that annoyed me deeply about the Fate/Stay Night anime.  The potential was there for everyone to say.  How is it possible to take something so innately chaotic, and end up making it formulaic.  And let's not get into the plot holes.

You know what I find refreshing about this story.  All the Masters are men.  Serious men too, some of whom are married.  It means the thing will be less likely dripping in adolescent sexual tension.  There was almost this harem thing going throughout the middle act of F/SN, with Saber, Rin, Sakura, Ilya and Taiga all either living in Shirou's house or hanging out there a lot.  Things like Shirou's ignorant sexist attitudes (I know he doesn't mean bad by it, but goddamn did it get annoying) and scenes like the one where he saw Saber in the bath and ran away from her or the episode where he took her on a date... they all add up and detract from the super serious atmosphere that is pretty much necessary to make a Type Moon story work.  I'm hoping that by making most of the important characters men in the thirties who understand the life-and-death situation they're in, they've nipped any chance of that sort of crap going on in the bud.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on October 08, 2011, 03:39:37 PM
Episode 2

The characterization is definitely superior to Fate/Stay Night and they have definitely picked the right seiyuu voicing each of the servants.  The personalities seem to be coming through in a distinct way.  (Rider's boisterous attitude combined with wits beyond his own time, etc.)  I am guessing Caster's voice to be a mixed bag, but I actually like it myself.  There also seems to be an air of tension that wasn't exactly in the predecessing series, most notably after Caster's summoning.  So, there are some good signs and the next episode will probably show off some action
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on October 09, 2011, 03:14:46 AM
Yeah, it's more Kara no Kyoukai than it is Fate/Stay Night, and that's definitely a good thing.

Ep 2

One thing I forgot to mention about ep 1 that impressed me was the psychoanalyses Emiya and Kirie did on each other near the end of the episode based on their respective intelligence reports.  Kirie guesses Emiya to be someone who was self-destructive until he met and married into the Einzbern family, while Emiya figured out that Kirie is a cold, unemotional juggernaut that follows his own convictions to the end.  Emiya seems to be fairly close to spot on after what seems to be Kirie's betrayal of his own Servant, by sending Assassin to a certain death.  Why, I have no idea.  I sure am eager to find out.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on October 09, 2011, 12:16:53 PM
Episode 2

Holy crap, compelling characters and genuine atmosphere in my (former) high school fantasy anime?  Two episodes in and this show is so far removed from the Fate/Stay Night anime in my mind that I'm going to pretend that Emiya Shirou never happened.  To everyone on NHRV not watching this, watch it.  The "sequel" Fate/Stay Night is not necessary and the plot is seriously picking up from the info dump of the first episode.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AH on October 09, 2011, 02:36:29 PM
While it's to be expected that the anime adaptation of Fate/Stay Night is going to be bashed to hell and back when compared to this prequel, which has been adapted by far more capable hands,  I do think it would be a shame to completely miss out on the original story (as told by the visual novel) and treat Fate/Zero as if it were the only existing part of this particular fictional universe.

Both may seem to be entirely distinct tales, at least if you only consider things at first glance, but knowing how they connect to each other adds a lot to the overall experience. Fate/Zero is "well made" in the sense that the writing and directing is good, but also because it takes the events of sequel into consideration and retroactively enhances some of them, using both new information and past indications, instead of telling an unrelated story with no further relevance and which would only be good as trivia (ie: Did you know this person met that person before...? Oh, how nice...).

I'm not saying nobody should watch Fate/Zero first, it seems that can be done just fine, but hopefully that won't be the beginning and end of people's interest in this universe. Not everyone will like the content, tone and format of the visual novel, but I definitely think the positives of knowing how the entire story looks like still overwhelm any of the negatives.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 09, 2011, 04:35:47 PM
Yeah, it's more Kara no Kyoukai than it is Fate/Stay Night, and that's definitely a good thing.

Allright.  I'll watch it.  But if this doesn't deliver... I'm coming back at you, S-K.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Jack Rav on October 11, 2011, 04:20:23 PM
2:

And the 4th Grail Wars starts in earnest. I wondered what the hell happened at the end of the episode until I read the title: 'False Opening'; as S-K said Kiritsugu's (using Emiya reminds of me of...someone...so I won't use it) initial analysis of Kirie seems to be pretty much on the money. He seems to be portraying himself as weak in order to attract attacks, then killing those people, would be my guess.

Also, Caster is a cruel ****. o.o
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on October 15, 2011, 12:59:30 PM
Episode 3

I like how the Holy Grail War is a lot more like a complex chess match in this series with the way things are being presented.  So, the pacing is done pretty well thus far.  The revelation behind True Assassin was not much of a surprise for me since I had already done my research a long time ago.  It also looks like the very same gun that was in Saber's flashbacks in Fate/Stay Night has made it's appearance.  The gun also already seems important with more meaning to it other then what F/SN had alluded to.  (Also, Kiritsugu is a pimp and Shirou apparently never learned those skills).

Surprisingly, the comedic elements are not handled as atrociously as it usually is in anime.  Rider seems genuinely funny and I actually enjoy his antics thus far.  Hell, I didn't even mind the stupid joke regarding Saber's comment on one of her abilities.  Bottom line is that these jokes didn't detract too much from the overall atmosphere which is a good sign.

It also looks like Saber's first matchup is against another legendary Irish spear wielder whose abilities are different compared to Cu Chulainn (F/SN's Lancer).  So, this is probably going to showcase how good the animation for this series really is next episode.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on October 15, 2011, 11:48:41 PM
I wondered what the hell happened at the end of the episode until I read the title: 'False Opening'; as S-K said Kiritsugu's (using Emiya reminds of me of...someone...so I won't use it) initial analysis of Kirie seems to be pretty much on the money.
I understand the issue, but I'll stick with using the surnames because they're just easier to remember. :P

Ep 3

The "chess" feel is evident.  Both the Assassin that was killed by Gilgamesh and Irisviel are pawns, while the more powerful pieces are yet to be moved into the open.  Also, surprise surprise, Kirie has already broken the rules.  I get the feeling he's going to shit all over everyone by the time this War has ended.

The kiss scene was an eyebrow raiser considering Emiya has been presented as a family man up until this point.  It just makes me wonder all the more about his relationship with Irisviel (who, evidently, has been sent out pretty much to die).  As we know the Einzbern family is anything but normal, but this just makes its nature all the more intriguing.

Sooo much tension.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on October 22, 2011, 04:56:52 PM
Episode 3

Despite the fact that the bout between Saber and Lancer was at a conservative pace, it was still pretty fluid while having enough flashiness to it.  Not to mention that there seems to be a bit more emphasis on strategy and description on each servant's abilities for a tactical battle.  This episode is good in my book and the better stuff has yet to come.  (Especially with Berserker's crazy as hell abilities in store).

To sum it up, I am not miffed over the staff behind this not going balls out for this particular battle.  But, it looks like things are going to be fun next episode so I can't wait to see it.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on October 22, 2011, 11:52:43 PM
Episode 4

I normally have problems with shows that spend so much time on a single unimpressive fight scene because its a characteristic from shounen action shows that I do not particularly like. However, having what amounts to 14 main characters allows the show to have meaningful posturing and meaningful drama outside the fights.  As of right now, I'm digging the information gathering, spreading misinformation and waiting for the right time to strike.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Jack Rav on October 23, 2011, 04:43:41 PM
4:

I love how Rider has total disregard for the norm; he wants to fight by damned he will fight. Name secrecy? Pfft. 'Honourable 1v1'? Pfft.

I'm actually surprised, and kind of disappointed, that Assassin has been noticed by Kiritsugu so early into the game after the initial 'death' of Assassin. But, aside from that, loving what I'm watching so far. Here's hoping Rider kicks ass. :P
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on October 23, 2011, 05:41:58 PM
Ep 4

I was actually caught off guard by the revelation that Irisviel is a homunculus.  It makes a little more sense why the Einzberns aren't terribly concerned about protecting her.

The pacing seems fairly slow (not a bad thing when an anime like this hinges so much on suspense), which left me wondering how they were going to fit all of this into 12 episodes.  Turns out there's a second season (http://myanimelist.net/anime/11741/Fate/Zero_2) coming in Spring.  That's another concern I can cross of my list.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: HirakuNoShadow on October 23, 2011, 11:21:58 PM
Turns out there's a second season (http://myanimelist.net/anime/11741/Fate/Zero_2) coming in Spring.  That's another concern I can cross of my list.
I thought MAL originally listed it as a 22 episode show... I guess not, but it's not like it matters anyway.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 27, 2011, 11:46:31 AM
1-3:

Catching up to this one kind of late, and I think there is one drastic and completely unavoidable problem with this show:

It came second.

Actually third, if you count the UBW movie, but that isn't what I meant.  I'm talking about the story of the next Holy Grail War and all that happens there.  We know it.  Thus, we know how this one ends.  I've had several people ask me if watching Fate/Stay Night is necessary for this, and my answer is now an emphatic "NO".  In fact, if you can somehow manage to watch this first, you're going to have a much better overall experience than I am right now.

It is not as if I'm not enjoying this, I am.  I'm just sitting here annoyed by everything I'm seeing because I already know the ending.  The producers and writers are doing a ****ing awesome job of making all of this seem tense, with the chess games going on, the personal issues, and the seriousness of the outcomes.  The problem is I KNOW THE OUTCOME.  Thus, whatever they're doing here is just going to be for naught, inevitably.

So I'm sad.  They're putting all this work in to try to make this as epic as possible to the uninitiated Fate viewer, and I can't enjoy it as much as I'd like.  This isn't even like the Star Wars prequels where you are actually interested to know how Darth Vader becomes Darth Vader.  Nobody here, aside from Kirie, survives this.  And Kirie is pretty much a ****face already here, so there's no interesting story behind what turns him into the bigger ****face he is in the next Holy Grail War.  There is, literally, NO explanation necessary that this back story can answer.  Is it interesting that Emiya's father is also Illya's father?  Not really.

The only thing the show has going for it right now are the individual character's stories.  We know how they end, but the getting there and the learning about them might be interesting if you're into the whole futility thing.  One superior aspect to this over the next Fate story is that the servants are less important as characters.  Thakn God.  If I had to put up with more Saber being naive I might have shot myself.

Which brings up the one glaring "huh?" moment in episode three.  Saber says that servants are called into the war with a "knowledge of the era", though I'm not sure if that was just a bad subtitle.  If that's the case, why the **** are all these servants dumb as shit when it comes to modern things?  Iskander alone would kick Arturia's comment to the curb, but Arturia herself becomes a total nitwit later.

Zero also introduces another interesting contradiction to Stay Night (etc) and that's the summoning of the servants.  In at least three cases, so far, the servant summoned was known.  Tohsaka used something of Gilgamesh's to summon him, Emiya used the legendary scabbard of Excalibur to summon Arturia Pendragon, and Iskander was summoned by the kid.  One of the most important aspects of the Fate universe was the lack of knowledge of a servant's true name.  Here we have three.  Was this just for the Stay Night folks who already knew who everybody was and just to get it out of the way or did they just not care?

Lastly, I noticed nobody mentioned that servants could be "imaginary" people or people from the future.  Tohsaka Rin points this out in Stay Night, so it should be something known here.  This, of course, is what leads to not only the summoning of the female embodiment of King Arthur, but also demi-God Heracles of Greek Mythology, and, as the shocking tweeest, Emiya Shirou as Archer.  Then again, how they actually got an imaginary king's imaginary sword's imaginary scabbard to summon said imaginary king is... well.. I think I just blew a gasket.

In conclusion... the show is amazingly awesome but I am deeply saddened that all the effort is going in vain for a viewer like myself.  Yes, what Caster did was horrendously awesome, but if the show is only going to survive off these "oh ****" moments, it might do well for it not to be involved in the Fate universe at all.  Am I alone here in feeling this way?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on October 27, 2011, 05:36:25 PM
Maybe.  Also, spoiler tags.  Not everyone's seen Fate/Stay Night.  And
Emiya survives, at least long enough to raise Shirou.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on October 27, 2011, 06:11:10 PM
Here's the way I look at it. From what I can tell so far, it would be more rewarding to read the original visual novel before watching this adaptation because of how it will probably fit in to the Fate thematic framework. To summarize, the three routes of the game each show a different aspect of heroism and idealism. Saber's route presents the traditional hero, Unlimited Blade Works presents the ideal hero and the challenges that come from those ideals, and Heaven's Feel is the abandonment of those ideals. (There are a lot of good articles about this if you are interested, particularly on Eternal's blog.) Fate Zero, from the sections with Kiritsugu and his back story of being the Magus Killer, seems to be adding another piece to that framework. He needs more character development before we see where it ends up, but from the first few episodes it seems to be going in that direction. In that sense, it is worth doing the prequel because it adds to the themes and the universe, as opposed to something like The Thing prequel which was exactly the same as the original with more women.

The bad news is that if you don't care about any of that, it sucks to be you.

Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: myst on October 27, 2011, 06:45:17 PM
Well I played F/SN's visual novel and enjoyed it for the most part so I'm glad Fate/Zero is a part of the universe, but I do agree that having them both does do some harm. No matter which one comes first, the ending for the other is basically spoiled. May be just my personal preference, but I'm not bothered by knowing the end because how it gets there is more important to me at least. Plus, the characters make the show really enjoyable to watch. An example of this would be Grave of the Fireflies. The fact that the brother and sister die at the end is stated right in the beginning. This did not weaken the story at all, in fact I think it made it more powerful. Perhaps its not really fair to draw comparisons with a Ghibli masterpiece, but it really comes down to whether you are willing to let the characters tell their story.

With regards to the servant's names, I would imagine that that was done deliberately because this show doesn't focus on one particular character, but on multiple. I'm glad they did this because the enemy servants in F/SN were all rather flat. They didn't have much personality because they had to be kept as enemies for Saber to fight. Knowing the various servants identities right off the bat allows me to connect with the characters more and also gives them the chance to develop with respect to their individual legends.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on October 27, 2011, 08:04:28 PM
Yeah TIF I feel you.   Fate/Zero probably would be more interesting if I didn't know how everything would end.  I could cheer for certain characters with all my heart if I didn't know the outcome, but now it's like watching a recording of a Super Bowl.

Regardless, I can see where The Big Guy is coming from when he talks about themes, but these are the kinds of connections I want to see when I rewatch the show.   I want to be at the edge of my seat when I watch it the first time.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on October 29, 2011, 01:06:55 PM
Episode 5

Berserker is badass and this episode is pretty much good for action.  Still, I am surprised that no one had recognized Gilgamesh this early yet.  It also looks like the command seals will play a bigger role in this series as well.  Still, can't wait to see what happens next.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on October 29, 2011, 06:32:41 PM
One thing I liked about Fate/Stay Night (TV) was that is was good at world building.  One thing I hated about Fate/Stay Night was that is was terrible at using the rules it established making all the complexities seem rather trivial mumbo jumbo spouted to make something simple seem complex. I like Fate/Zero is actually using the mechanics it sets for itself to affect the direction of the plot in an interesting way.  Now I know that the whole command seal gimmick is more than just a way to show that Shirou such a nice guy that he's above bending the will of Saber.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: HirakuNoShadow on October 30, 2011, 03:10:37 AM
5:

ಥ_ಥ

Crying Caster is so moe.

I'll make no secret Berserker is my favourite servant, and he did not disappoint me in this episode in screwing around with Gilgamesh. I didn't mind Berserker being animated using CG either. Pity that he probably won't be appearing as much in the next episode, but I'm still keen on what's about to happen next week.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Jack Rav on October 31, 2011, 08:38:17 AM
5:

Berserker was animated deliciously for the entirety of the time he was on the screen; I hope to see more of him for his animation alone. (Not to mention he is pretty badass) Kariya also has the most noble cause (that I know of yet) out of the Masters so I know who my favourite combination is (Waver drags down Rider).

Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on October 31, 2011, 09:43:59 AM
4:

Most of this episode only served to exasperate my problem.  There is no drama at all watching Saber fight a shounen-esque battle sequence.  I know what happens to her in this war, so there's nothing here that could even remotely interest me.  There's no tension in the possibility of failure.  This, inevitably, makes the Lancer we're seeing here pointless.

But, I do gotta say, he may be doomed, but Iskander is a very likeable servant so far.  I mean, the guy's just got moxie.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on November 01, 2011, 09:23:56 PM
TIF, I actually have to disagree with you.   Knowing the outcome of the show does not diminish the Lancer battle.  Everyone already knows that the main characters will win and eliminating the 0.1% chance that the anime breaks the fourth wall and makes the main character lose should not affect anyone's enjoyment of the fight.  The thing that irks me about having watched Fate/Stay Night is the amount of detail I know about Fate/Zero's ending.  It doesn't leave much room to speculate about "what ifs" and potential happy endings.   
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on November 05, 2011, 12:42:32 PM
Episode 6

The conversation between Kirei and Gilgamesh was interesting since it dawned a storyline I wasn't even thinking about.  This pretty much alludes to how those two end up together as partners in crime for F/SN.  Kirei is pretty much one of the most interesting characters in this show at the moment.  Not that the other details/twists weren't interesting in their own right since Lancer's master has some complications to deal.  Still, it is too bad Caster didn't recieve as much focus and was a little overshadowed this episode. 
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on November 05, 2011, 09:40:18 PM
Episode 6

When they said that this was a war, they really meant it.  The actions this episode had the flamboyance I would expect from Code Geass, but they made perfect sense in context of what's happening in the series.  It's quite sad that about half of the Masters in this series could have single-handedly cleaned the field in Fate/Stay Night.  Realistically speaking, Kirei should have won. 
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on November 06, 2011, 03:02:23 AM
Ep 6

MOAR!

What makes Christopher Nolan's Batman movies superior to the previous incarnations?  Among other things, it's the emphasis on realism and humanism.  I was reminded of Nolan's Batman after that scene where Kiritsugu blew up the building, which I thought was incredibly realistic.  Because the Fate/Stay Night comparisons are starting to become mundane, I think it's worth comparing that scene with the scene in the most recent episode of Guilty Crown where they do likewise.  But because this scene was done with so much more believability, it had way more tension and impact.  The Guilty Crown action sequence was pretty to look at.  This instead really drove home a point: this is the length Kiritsugu is willing to go.  And we get a clear glimpse of the consequences of the action as well, particularly when Kiritsugu gazed at the mother and daughter who were among a crowd of people forced to evacuate.  Often, action movies/anime don't care to look back on the consequences of such moments afterwards.

There have been lots of little examples that strongly suggest that Urobuchi is just as aware of the meta-reactions to the Fate/ universe as he is to the inner workings of the world itself.  The weirdness of the fact that King Arthur is a girl kinda gets waved to one side in F/SN, but it's addressed fairly well here.  But in this episode, there was the fact Caster was convinced Saber is Joan of Arc.  Raise your hand if you thought Saber was possibly Joan of Arc before her real identity was revealed?  Everyone?  Close enough.  Having Caster convinced of a delusion that we all held as a suspicion helps allay some of the lingering awkwardness about Saber's identity.  It's like Urobuchi's saying "that's a trap that anyone can fall into, now wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if a crazy person believed it".  And the way it's done is incredibly deft as well, seeing as how Gilles de Rais really did know Joan of Arc.

Oh yeah, and that scene with Kirie and Gilgamesh.  Philosophy!  Not to mention Masters breaking rules left right and centre.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 06, 2011, 04:49:33 PM
Y'know, just the other day I mused on Twitter why it was that Saber WASN'T just Joan of Arc.  I mean, what was the need to make the person of Arthurian Legend a female?  I'm still not sure they quite have answered that question other than... she's **** material for the game.  Urobochi is sure trying to justify it some other way, but I'm afraid no matter what he comes up with is just going to be greeted with skepticism by me.  You made a ****ing sex game, dude, of course it's a chick.  No other explanation needed.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on November 06, 2011, 07:56:25 PM
I should be able to explain why Saber shouldn't be Joan of Arc, if nothing else. The thing that connects Kiritsugu, Shirou, and Saber together is that they are all betrayed by their lofty ideals. Kiritsugu recognizes that he can't become a superhero and thus becomes an antihero to try to achieve his goal, while Shirou and Saber fight to maintain their ideal at any cost and as a result
are betrayed by the people that they fought to protect in the first place.
Unfortunately, Joan of Arc doesn't really apply to that dynamic, as her martyrdom was more probably more important to the French cause than all of her military exploits combined. So the choice to make Saber King Arthur was probably the best choice...

But I will not deny that King Arthur was made a girl because the game is an eroge. I don't think that anyone could win an argument to the contrary.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on November 06, 2011, 08:08:05 PM
Y'know, just the other day I mused on Twitter why it was that Saber WASN'T just Joan of Arc.  I mean, what was the need to make the person of Arthurian Legend a female?  I'm still not sure they quite have answered that question other than... she's **** material for the game.  Urobochi is sure trying to justify it some other way, but I'm afraid no matter what he comes up with is just going to be greeted with skepticism by me.  You made a ****ing sex game, dude, of course it's a chick.  No other explanation needed.
It wasn't Urobuchi who made King Arthur a girl for an eroge, it was Nasu.  I think Urobuchi is a lot like the rest of us in that respect: trying to make some sort of sense of it.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on November 06, 2011, 08:57:09 PM
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Shadowmage_Shin/Castercopy.jpg)

There are times when 4chan wins.  This is one of them.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: HirakuNoShadow on November 06, 2011, 09:28:32 PM
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Shadowmage_Shin/Castercopy.jpg)

There are times when 4chan wins.  This is one of them.
It's all the more ironic that Gen Urobuchi was responsible for both shows...
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on November 07, 2011, 11:20:22 AM
It wasn't Urobuchi who made King Arthur a girl for an eroge, it was Nasu.  I think Urobuchi is a lot like the rest of us in that respect: trying to make some sort of sense of it.

Well then, he is just looking the fool, ain't he?  If Saber was a dude, the whole dragon scene would be even weirder.  Or hotter, depending on your point of view.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on November 12, 2011, 04:01:16 PM
7:

That was... really awesome! Best episode so far!
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on November 12, 2011, 05:00:22 PM
Episode 7

Kiritsugu is a badass, but vunerable man with cracks in his armor. That is pretty much the lesson I learned from today's episode.  Also, the explanation behind Kayneth's survival make sense and it is nice to see magic actually play more of a role in this series too.  Caster is great as usual when he is being sadistic.  Plus, Rider was pretty funny as usual and I am thinking he interferes next episode.  All in all, a damn awesome episode with no complaints from me.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Hokuto_Spirit on November 12, 2011, 06:26:25 PM
7:

Nice sneak attack Kiritsugu. After going through all that to hide from Kayneth, you just have to call his name right before you shoot. I expect that this won't matter as his pistol will likely unload some kind of serious bullshit. Still, it seemed rather out of character for him to do something cocky like that.

I also don't understand his little breakdown over Kirei. He is supposed to be a veteran assassin, not some rookie; so why is he so afraid of a challenge?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hoarfrost on November 13, 2011, 09:07:57 AM
7:

Nice sneak attack Kiritsugu. After going through all that to hide from Kayneth, you just have to call his name right before you shoot. I expect that this won't matter as his pistol will likely unload some kind of serious bullshit. Still, it seemed rather out of character for him to do something cocky like that.

I also don't understand his little breakdown over Kirei. He is supposed to be a veteran assassin, not some rookie; so why is he so afraid of a challenge?

Because he didn't get to be a veteran assassin by fighting dudes directly. Every time he has made or executed a plan in this show, it's been "wait for some diversion and then snipe the enemy from some safe distance". He even uses his own wife as bait while he skulks around the shadows with a rifle. This episode he basically says to wait for the enemy masters to engage Caster so that he can pick them off from afar. Now for someone to be after him, especially a guy like Kotomine who lacks the exploitable weaknesses of the other masters and actually has experience in combat to be seeking him out if the worst case scenario.

Kiritsugu has that almost-retired-cop syndrome. So close, why does something like this have to happen now?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on November 19, 2011, 05:30:04 PM
Episode 8

Surprisingly, they actually explained one of the reasons why Saber did not carry Avalon for most of F/SN.  It makes me wonder how this secret was as well kept as it was other then the fact that obviously Irisviel's dedication to Kiritsugu is that strong.  The facial expressions of Kayneth and Caster also stood out since were pretty well done.  The part revealing Kiritsugu's deal to get his upgraded ammo was pretty interesting while reminding me of Outlaw Star in a way.

My only real nitpick is the activation trigger for the magical bullet's effect since the explanation was not the best.  I would think that a direct hit with one of those should have had far more immediate impact and screwing Kayneth up faster then the ooze swallowing it up.  Especially if that bullet was somehow still lodged into the guy.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Hokuto_Spirit on November 19, 2011, 06:43:47 PM
@FSI

It probably has to do with the bullets having a greater effect the more a magus exerts themselves. The first time Kayneth was shot he didn't take Kiritsugu's attack seriously, while for the second time he concentrated all his power to try an stop the bullet , which is why the second one was more effective than the first.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on November 19, 2011, 10:26:09 PM
Ep 8

People unfamiliar with F/SN are going to see the bit with Avalon and think it's a deus ex machina.  Which it is.  But if you're familiar with F/SN, it's also a major, unexpected plot twist.  I just wish they mentioned it earlier since (a) it is pretty jarring if this is your introduction to the little device that allows Saber's Master to cheat death and (b) I'd actually forgotten all about it.

Still, how brutal was that scene where Kirie stabbed Irisviel.  Irisviel has pretty much shot to the top of my list of favourite anime milfs, so that bit was really shocking to watch.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on November 26, 2011, 04:16:45 PM
Episode 9

Character development is what it is all about in this episode.  The fact that Sola is a dirtier and more ruthless player then Kayneth could be is kind of interesting.  Especially with Lancer's charming ability playing a factor and as a nod to his legend.  This series is doing a good job of integrating the character's legends to have some form of influence in the show in interesting ways.  Not only that, the Rider/Velvet pairing is done so well it still surprises me considering that usually these types tend to get old fast.

Next episode seems to hint at Berserker reappearing for another epic fight which is cool with me.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on November 26, 2011, 10:21:29 PM
Ep 9

One of the interesting running themes throughout this show is the gap between the level of ideology of the Masters and their respective Servants, and how this can often be a source of friction.  This is particularly true with Kiritsugu and Saber, and it played out again in this episode, with them disagreeing about which opposition Servant should be their next target.  I think there's this belief held by quite a few of the Servants that their Masters are fundamentally good people, and if they happen to do bad things, it's only because of the War.  Undoubtedly this is definitely not true in the case of Caster, and arguably this is only true in the case of Rider.  But yeah, Waver and Rider kinda buck the trend in that they are one of the few (if only) Master/Servant pairs where the Master is more of an idealist than the Servant.

I think the Rin episode next might be really interesting (although, it might also be an unnecessary distraction).  At the very least, it might give her more character development than she got in the F/SN anime.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on December 01, 2011, 12:56:32 PM
So, anybody got $370  (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-12-01/aniplex-confirms-u.s-release-of-fate/zero-bd-boxes) to spare?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on December 03, 2011, 02:09:09 PM
Episode 10

Damn you Ufotable.  Damn you.  I was already resigned to thinking this episode was going to be crappy filler and end up hating it as a result.  But, you managed to do the exact opposite which was nothing short of fantastic.  I don't know how the hell you did this with damningly great wisdom but now I have to accept the fact that you pulled one on me.  Damn it all.

With that aside, my only actual complaint is the fact that Rin accomplished more then anyone who was pursuing Caster.  Saber and even Rider didn't manage to do save half as many of the kids Rin saved.  Still, this was a great episode helped by a brooding atmosphere that was like a shade of Kara no Kyoukai.  The best thing is that they tied in some subplot points from the first two episodes into Rin's adventure.  No Berserker sighting, but it is all good considering the character development.

So, anybody got $370  (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-12-01/aniplex-confirms-u.s-release-of-fate/zero-bd-boxes) to spare?
That is why I wait until someone rips .isos from the DVDs and download them myself.  No use in me spending a ton of money like that for the most part.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on December 03, 2011, 08:41:57 PM
I suspect the DVD release will be a little more reasonably priced.  I remember Aniplex setting the price for the Kara no Kyoukai BD box set at around $400, and people bought it.  So they have form in this area, and evidently there are people out there that spend that type of money.

Ep 10

Yeah, I thought this was going to be a meaningless distraction, but damn the part where Rin tracks down Ryuunosuke was tense.  That said, the effect TIF was talking about earlier came into play a bit here, since we all knew Rin was going to be alright.  The question was whether her friend would survive, but obviously, from the audience point of view, we care more about Rin than we do her friend.  I do think they missed a slight opportunity when Kariya appeared.
Having spoiled myself on some snippets of his backstory, it turned out that Kariya and Tokiomi were romantic rivals in a love triangle with Aoi... and obviously Kariya lost.  This is why he has a particular interest in trying to protect Sakura.  I'm wondering if that backstory will be explored more explicitly later on, or whether it's just going to stay as implied.  I guess it will if Kariya ever gets the chance to confront Tokiomi.

One minor issue with this episode was that they blurred the line between what was flashback, and what is happening in the present (ie, from Fate/Zero's point of view).  There are two sources for this issue, the first being the (I'd guess deliberately) confusing way they presented things, particularly in the opening part of the episode, and in the scene just before Rin decides to go into Fuyuki city, and the second being that, from the point of view of what we know, ie Rin's story in F/SN, the entire thing is a flashback.  I guess the events of this episode explain why she was so perturbed by the murders that happened at the beginning of F/SN.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: XRavsterX on December 05, 2011, 11:15:13 AM
10.

In all honesty...I found this episode to be a real waste of time. Rin matters little in this Grail War, so to have a whole episode devoted to her really annoys me; considering we have seen so little of Kariya and Berserker - who are the most interesting and redeemable characters in the entire cast.

When Kariya did appear, however, it did intrigue me to see him intercept Caster's creature attacking Rin; I like to believe that he is trying to stop the kidnapping as much as he can.

In short, this anime needs more Kariya and Berserker.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on December 10, 2011, 03:21:03 PM
Episode 11

Quite an interesting episode that displays how much commitment there is to letting the Servants shine as characters.  The dialogue kind of reminds me of a few episodes ago when Gilgamesh was conversing with Kirei.  One interesting aspect is how this event influences and shapes some of the things that happen in F/SN.  Not to mention, Gilgamesh is more interesting then in any of the other Fate anime adapatations.

If there is one particular ability I have always liked in the Fate franchise it would be the Reality Marble.  It was pretty cool to see one of Rider's ultimate Noble Phantasms despite this early reveal being a surprise to me.  Since I merely did some research on this it is nice to have been surprised due to not having actually read the novel.  Although, I still like Emiya's Unlimited Blade Works more.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on December 10, 2011, 11:33:46 PM
Ep 11

Is Rider's Noble Phantasm imba?  I mean, surely that beats the crap out of Excalibur, let alone Lancer's cursed lance.  I guess there are situations where UBW or Gates of Babylon would beat it, but at first glance, it just strikes me as way too strong.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on December 11, 2011, 08:16:18 PM
Episode 11

You know what.  The more I listen to Saber, the more I realize that she's a perfect match with Emiya Shirou.  Only Shirou can outclass her in a game of morality.

Is Rider's Noble Phantasm imba?  I mean, surely that beats the crap out of Excalibur, let alone Lancer's cursed lance.  I guess there are situations where UBW or Gates of Babylon would beat it, but at first glance, it just strikes me as way too strong.
I imagine the stats of all his soldiers are abysmally low such that any kind of AOE attack like Excalibur's nuke can wipe out the entire army.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on December 17, 2011, 01:45:54 PM
Episode 12

It is interesting to learn the background of Emiya's house since there is even an explanation for the magic circle he stumbled upon in F/SN.  Some of the rules seem new as they were explained while pointing out the inconsistencies in F/SN even more.  I never knew about the rules about dispersing Command Seals as that was never touched upon until now.  Despite some of the flaws, Kirei and Gilgamesh made this in the end since it is easy to see why they are eventual partners in crime.

One more episode until the Finale for this season of the anime and it seems like it will be an epic battle royale from the preview.  I definitely expect Berserker to show up and wreck some sweet havok.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on December 17, 2011, 10:22:26 PM
Episode 12

Wait a second, so Kirei's wish is to know what he desires... 

Gilgamesh was right; Kirei is fascinating.  This cuts into the eternal question of the meaning of life.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on December 18, 2011, 12:06:42 AM
1~12:

Going after the Holy Grail for the desire of knowing what he desires... deep.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Aeroblip on December 22, 2011, 01:03:53 AM
Since the season is almost over, I thought it would be more appropriate to ask:

Before watching, should I watch F/SN and UBW movie (even though they received mediocre reviews)? Or should I ask again after the second season?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on December 22, 2011, 01:11:54 AM
That's an interesting and often asked question, and my answer to it is in a state of flux.  Short answer: ask AC.

Long answer: I think it only matters for the first ep of Fate/Zero.  A lot of the details in ep 1 complement the events of F/SN, and it adds to the experience if you understand the references and whatnot.  After ep 1, I'd say it doesn't matter.  You can enjoy the other episodes whether you've seen F/SN or not.  TIF and SM argue that having knowledge of F/SN actually detracts from Fate/Zero because you know which characters are going to survive, but I don't necessary agree.  I suspect that having a background knowledge of F/SN might matter a bit more once we get deeper into the series.  At that stage the end of F/Z has to tie into the beginning of F/SN so we'll probably see a lot more references to the latter.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on December 22, 2011, 08:08:23 AM
From what I've gathered, in comparison to Zero, Stay Night is dog doo. I haven't watched Stay Night or Unlimited Blade Works yet and I'm watching F/Z. Personally speaking, I don't think it's that important to watch either shows before the second season... heck, I don't think it's that important to even watch them at all. The first episode of Zero is long because it wants to set the stage for the whole battle royale, and while it is a little superfluous, it is engaging and well written. I do not get the entire picture of what's going on in the Fate universe just by watching the first episode, but I would say that I get the big picture. Basically, it's just a slugfest of Servants commanded by Masters who have a lot at stake in their respective hands. Simple as that.

This is similar to the case of Rurouni Kenshin TV series and the OVA series (the first OVA, I'll put aside the second one). The series is a mix of light-hearted and serious content, and it's something that many people have come to relate to even now, especially with Kenshin himself. The OVA however, is thoroughly serious and it changes the way you look at Kenshin i.e. an occasionally comical character who bears a tragic scar and an even more tragic history.

The main difference between Fate and Kenshin is, for the latter, both the series and the OVA are good in their own way. F/SN seems to suck, almost to the point that you don't need to watch it. You can watch it if you want to know more, but you don't have to.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on December 22, 2011, 10:24:29 AM
After actually reading the visual novel, I would suggest not touching the adaptations at all. The only arc that would add anything substantial to Fate Zero is Heaven's Feel, and I wouldn't get my hopes up for an OVA anytime in the future. Most of the stuff that you miss from that arc is background info, like the Holy Grail (how it can grant wishes), how it's created (the series just gives vague outlines of the hows and whys of the war), the motivations of the families who fight for it (most notably, it explains why the Church wants Tohsaka to win) and how it fits into the larger Nasuverse (particularly how it relates to Kara No Kyoukai). If you don't care about any of that, then you should be fine without any exposure to the original work. 
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Hokuto_Spirit on December 23, 2011, 05:27:41 AM
What The Big Guy said.

If you want more Fate, then play the VN.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on December 24, 2011, 01:15:08 PM
Episode 12/Season 1 Finale

April cannot come soon enough as that is going to be a hell of a tough wait.  I have really enjoyed this season as UFOtable has done a fantastic job with this adaptation.  Really, nothing else for me to say except for an applause and damn the cliffhanger.  If there is any consolation for anyone if necessary, the second season looks like it will have more Berserker sightings.  So, that much is awesome as hell and something to look forward to.

Rating: 8/10
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on December 25, 2011, 12:44:42 AM
NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL A CLIFFHANGER.

8/10. To be honest, it's not fair to give a grade for a continuous series that's intended to be split into two seasons.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on December 25, 2011, 04:31:35 AM
Just a head's up.  Official NHRV policy on split cour series is not to review them until after the second cour, so that's what we'll be doing with Fate/Zero.

Anyway, it's very hard to rate this anime at this point considering nothing much has really happened.  We've got an early game set up, and a few pawns and a bishop are gone, but it feels like we're only just on the verge of entering the mid-game (hence the evil cliffhanger).  I have a feeling once we get to a certain stage in the second cour, pieces will be falling left, right and centre.  That's when the juicy stuff is really going to start.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Horsechoker on March 09, 2012, 11:18:27 AM
This is a piece of shit show and in no way in hell does it "deserve" any rating above 4/10.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on March 09, 2012, 11:56:10 AM
Tell us how you really feel.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: leokiko. on March 09, 2012, 12:08:47 PM
/trolllolololol
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Cadavera on March 09, 2012, 02:31:26 PM
Does anybody know the air date of the second season?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on March 09, 2012, 04:52:34 PM
Does anybody know the air date of the second season?

MAL says April 8.  Grain of salt, etc.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on April 07, 2012, 01:51:30 PM
14

Awesome!   Fate/Zero is back!

This episode filled a gap in my knowledge as to why Tokiomi gave up Sakura.  The logic behind is actions is pretty simple and actually quite reasonable for a man of his world view.  Tokiomi  establishes himself as a man who is willing to sacrifice everything, even himself, for the greater good of his bloodline.

New OP/ED

I recall reading somewhere that there wasn't much in the light novels that thoroughly fleshed out Kiritsugu as a human being.  It seems that season 2 is using the new OP and ED to do a bit of that heavy lifting.  The OP offers a glimpse of Kiritsugu as a child and the ED tells the story of Kiritsugu and Irisviel.   
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on April 07, 2012, 02:41:00 PM
Episode 14

Quite an excellent return episode to kick off the new season.  Berserker/Gilgamesh delivered the goods even though I didn't expect this to be an aerial battle.  Still, I am glad that they continued from their cliffhanger instead of doing a lame as hell recap episode.  The budget used in this episode's animation definitely must have been plenty since even the airforce pilots looked rather good.

The OP/ED are rather telling and even seem to provide some spoilers as well.  The spoilers are my only knock on this episode and more of a nitpick.  I can't wait to see the next episode.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on April 09, 2012, 08:18:51 PM
14:

Welcome back, Fate/Zero.

I have one anime club member who calls this the best show of the year, but to me that's a very farfetched opinion. It continues exactly from where it left off in the first season, so if anything, it's great only because it knows how to continue and maintain from its previous departure. Whether it's a lot better than the first season obviously remains to be seen, but so far it's great.

Berserker and Archer just seem to never get enough of each other, do they. But this is in a good way, though: Berserker hijacking a jet fighter as his Noble Phantasm is just IMBA, but not sure if I can say the same about Archer and his umm, "golden jet craft". As for Caster's Master getting his comeuppance, well, not surprised that he bit the dust early in the game. He's never been part of the war internally and is only there because he fits the requirements. Plus, in all honesty, Caster's the Servant I'm least interested to watch.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on April 14, 2012, 01:41:57 PM
Episode 15

That was a pretty awesome end to that battle while making Excalibur look far superior then in F/SN.  Seriously, Excalibur's attack never looked as good as it did here while even carrying some sort of meaning behind it.  Plus, the tune they played when Excalibur was unleashed is something I have heard before while watching clips of the Type Moon Battle Wars games on Youtube, only remixed for the better.  I am glad they are still letting the Servants stand out as characters since that is one of the things that made the 1rst season so good.

The fact that they touched upon an earlier point with Kirei back in S1 is definitely cool as well.  I loved those conversations he had with Gilgamesh.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on April 14, 2012, 04:33:07 PM
ep 15:

I been waiting for ufotable's animation of excalibur and it didn't disappoint. And for us VN fans they even threw in a kaijura remix of promised sword of victory, hell yeah.

No qualms with this adaption in general really. As a big time fate fan, I have been very pleased.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on April 14, 2012, 07:33:44 PM
15:

Correct me if I'm incorrect (since I never read the VN), but is the series' story much more accelerated than the original source? I say this because it feels so. Not to say that it's a bad thing; I just feel that the demise of Caster and his Master is early for an epic fight, but perhaps it's the necessary thing to do just to keep the story going. With that being said, the plot would only thicken from now on as there are only 6 remaining.

Keep it up.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on April 14, 2012, 09:40:32 PM
15:

Correct me if I'm incorrect (since I never read the VN), but is the series' story much more accelerated than the original source? I say this because it feels so. Not to say that it's a bad thing; I just feel that the demise of Caster and his Master is early for an epic fight, but perhaps it's the necessary thing to do just to keep the story going. With that being said, the plot would only thicken from now on as there are only 6 remaining.

Keep it up.

No. The adaptation was very faithful, and the pace is the same in the original.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on April 21, 2012, 08:18:19 PM
16:

Oh SNAPE, the plot cogwheel is really cranked up now, isn't it :V

I really feel sorry for Lancer. He's like that squirrel in the Ice Age: he never gets what he wants. A tragic hero with a noble cause but an inevitable curse, he 1) doesn't get to serve his Master faithfully (whether he wants to or not), and 2) never got to fight Saber completely, although he did get a worthy fight before biting the dust. Yup, and Emiya the Anti-Hero gets the job done.

Now I wanna see more of Kirei and his personal tribulation between his resolution and his inner desires. He knows that he's turning his back on Tohsaka, yet he feels like he's doing something good for himself for once. This is perhaps the start of his return to the game.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on April 21, 2012, 11:10:52 PM
Episode 16

Emiya really made this episode while his character made real sense at the end.  The dialogue for that scene was well written enough to be as awesome as the exchanges between Kirei and Gilgamesh.  Speaking of which, I still can't fathom how Kirei ended up being so bland in all the adaptations of F/SN since he is a real gold mine here.  Another awesome episode with interesting character perspectives to boot.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on April 21, 2012, 11:26:24 PM
Speaking of which, I still can't fathom how Kirei ended up being so bland in all the adaptations of F/SN since he is a real gold mine here.  Another awesome episode with interesting character perspectives to boot.

Partly because the one route they didn't animate is the one he gets fleshed out the most. Secondly, I wouldn't call this animes by DEEN true adaptions of fate/stay night. They're horrid.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on April 21, 2012, 11:42:52 PM
I had this very strange imagination where Kirei is this teacher's pet who is getting kicks from doing naughty things. Oh where the hell did this come from...
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on April 21, 2012, 11:54:07 PM
I had this very strange imagination where Kirei is this teacher's pet who is getting kicks from doing naughty things. Oh where the hell did this come from...
After all the weird people I met today and awkwardness I dealt with today, that was sadly nothing by comparison.  And, that is weird enough as it is...

Lol.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on April 22, 2012, 07:02:10 PM
16

It seems that the core theme of Fate/Stay Night has cropped up again.  The question of what it means to be a hero never resonated with me until the end of UBW since Shirou was such an unconvincing character, but Fate/Zero's Kiritsugu take a far more believable and interesting approach the whole thing.  He's shown to be extremely disaffected with the ornaments that are commonly associated with heroes, but he has not lost sight of the underlying goals.  To him, the ends are all that's important; the means are trivial.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Soksang on April 22, 2012, 08:50:03 PM
Do you have to watch fate/stay night to watch Fate/Zero???
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on April 22, 2012, 08:58:10 PM
Do you have to watch fate/stay night to watch Fate/Zero???


It's suggested, but not an absolute must, you'd just be very lost with world mechanics and such perhaps. A lot of stuff is explained in F/Z though, but it does spoil F/S N. I'd always recommend playing the VN over watching the anime... But if that is not an option I say try the anime first, just no that it may very well be mediocre in comparison.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on April 22, 2012, 10:53:43 PM
Do you have to watch fate/stay night to watch Fate/Zero???

No.  This is a prequel.

However, Fate/Zero spoils Fate/Stay Night and vice versa.  I would suggest going ahead and watching Fate/Zero since there are no good adaptations of Fate/Stay Night, and the VN is a MASSIVE read.  Unless you're the type of person who actually went out and read the whole Lord of the Rings trilogy when people told you that they were better than the movies, then you'll never get through the Fate/Stay Night VN. 

EDIT: To give you perspective on how big Fate/Stay Night Visual Novel is, my play time is logged in at 21 hours by the in-game clock.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on April 28, 2012, 06:14:37 PM
17

Oh wow. Kirei, you fabulous bastard, that was cold.  So cold.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on April 28, 2012, 07:17:07 PM
17:

Kirei got the job done LIKE A BOSS.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on April 28, 2012, 09:19:16 PM
Ep 17

It wasn't so much the betrayal itself which was shocking (everyone who'd seen F/SN knew it was coming), it was just how dirty it was.  A literal backstab.  Kiritsugu's actions were shocking enough in the previous episode, but he didn't owe anything to Kayneth.  Kirei just killed his own teacher after revealing with no uncertainty that he also wanted to kill his father.  He's a much deeper character here than he ever was in F/SN.

Bravo to the show's director as well.  That scene where Kirei and Gilgamesh conspired to kill Tokiomi was so well executed.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on April 28, 2012, 11:03:06 PM
Episode 17

The story of how Gilgamesh and Kirei became partners in crime is awesome as hell.  Not to mention, the facial expressions for Kirei were quite entertaining including that deathly smile.  Really, if Kirei is not even considered as a candidate for best villian of the year, then something is damningly wrong.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on May 05, 2012, 07:16:55 PM
18:

Oh, so that's what happened to Emiya.

To be honest, Emiya's story didn't impress me that much. It was decent, but the whole idea of losing someone dear to you and a vampire outbreak just seem banal to me. I just couldn't empathize with the fact that Emiya has lost someone so precious to him that it drove him into killing his own dad. The only high point was when his dad gave a (predictably) apathetic response to Shirley's death. Typically scientific deduction, much.

But hmm, it would have been awesome if the story had been as impactful as say, Homura's rationale in Madoka Magica. There's still a continuation to the exploration of his past, so let's see what drives him into becoming a Mage killer.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on May 05, 2012, 07:53:17 PM
I think the main point of the episode was that because Kiritsugu let Shirley live when she asked him to kill her, it led to the destruction of the entire village though he could've prevented it. His kill one to save 100 philosophy stems all from this. It wasn't simply about encountering destruction, it's about having the resolve to carry out what's best for everybody and in this way he failed to save anyone because of it. Him killing his Dad was his next logical step in his progression, to prevent more incidents like this he will do what needs to be done with his own hands. This is his form of justice.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on May 05, 2012, 08:33:36 PM
18

Well, this episode I've learned that Kiritsugu is batshit crazy.  I thought his devotion to justice was due to trauma from being a child soldier of fortune or something.  This episode showed that it's just a part in his nature... like Shirou from Fate/Stay Night.  I come to this conclusion because I honestly don't think an average person would kill his/her parent for indirectly causing the death of hundreds.  Yes, his father indicated that he was grooming Shirley for possible zombification at a later date, but you need to make some massive logical jumps in the train of thought of "Shirley stole my father's magic medicine and caused the death of everyone on the island, therefore my father should die so that such tragedies will not happen again." 

Kiritsugu doesn't just think that the appropriate ends will justify the means.  From what I see, he judges the ends with almost no consideration of the means. 
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on May 05, 2012, 11:07:53 PM
Episode 18

That explains quite a bit about why Kiritsugu is the way he is.  If Shirou really knew how about what his father went through, it makes me wonder if his views would be different?  The next episode should be quite interesting
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on May 06, 2012, 09:54:18 PM
18:

Got to love how this show ties in all of the elements from past Type Moon works effortlessly and without much exposition. First Akasha and the Great Holy Grail in the last episode (unless you watched Kara No Kyoukai, and read Heaven's Feel, that whole conversation between Kirei and Gilgamesh went right over your head), and now Dead Apostles from Tsukihime. It really does reward the people who went through the rest of Type Moon's works, and yet is accessible enough to not detract from the newer viewer's experience of the show. Well done.

Also, this episode answers one of the questions I've been wondering about since the beginning, why did the Einzberns hire Kiritsugu in the first place? The answer is that both families, the Emiya and the Einzberns, strive for immortality albeit through different means. The Einzberns (and the Matou as well) try to obtain immortality through separation of the soul from the body, while the Emiya had tried to turn humans into True Ancestors (I assume, because the failed attempt turned people into Dead Apostles). Ironically, the three families succeed in obtaining immortality in the end, but to none of their benefits, as the only one who becomes immortal is Shirou who doesn't care for any of them. Cool stuff.   
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on May 08, 2012, 05:24:33 AM
18:

Got to love how this show ties in all of the elements from past Type Moon works effortlessly and without much exposition. First Akasha and the Great Holy Grail in the last episode (unless you watched Kara No Kyoukai, and read Heaven's Feel, that whole conversation between Kirei and Gilgamesh went right over your head), and now Dead Apostles from Tsukihime. It really does reward the people who went through the rest of Type Moon's works, and yet is accessible enough to not detract from the newer viewer's experience of the show. Well done.
Also, an old friend from Kara no Kyoukai.

(http://i.imgur.com/DtO1q.jpg)

Edit: I assume this is from before he went insane and become obsessed with killing a so-called "dirty red".
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 11, 2012, 11:22:58 PM
18:

I honestly didn't expect this episode, though the climax of the last episode dictated it should be so.  There's an awful lot still we need to figure out before we can truly understand everything Kiritsugu is compared to what his son, Shirou, will be.  The Kiritsugu we saw in Fate / Stay NIght, albeit briefly, was not really someone who seemed completely consumed with his hatred of mages, though perhaps he was just hiding it really well.  I am concerned about a timeline discrepancy, though, as Rin and Sakura are both already born, so Shirou should as well, but we haven't seen him yet, and he has lots of fond memories growing up of his dad, right up to the disaster that would consume him and the city which was supposed to be the climax of the last Grail War.  I'm not saying we need to see Shirou, it's just interesting that, so far, Zero is only giving us one side of Kiritsugu (the business end), while not giving us the other side (the man who loves his kids, though we did get some shots of him and Illya earlier).  Perhaps they wont, either, and just leave the moments between Shirou and Kiritsugu for Stay Night only.  It would be an interesting way to do a "dual perspective", with, as Obi-Wan Kenobi put it, things told from a "certain point of view".

As for the episode, I also found Kiritsugu's turning on his father to be a bit premature, if the narratives we were given were all there was.  IE, there's more to the relationship he has with his dad than we were told about.  Something tells me this isn't the first time his dad has done something his son loathes, and while the first time can be explained away, being callous about the death of a young girl that Kiritsugu was quite obviously in love with would push anybody over the edge.  Problem is, he makes the choice to kill his dad before he finds out about his dad's attitude.  So, something wasn't being told to us.

Lastly, while I'm not a fan of Takeuchi's character designs, there is something incredibly attractive about how ufotable does the female figure.  Doing a quick rundown of their anime works, aside from Manabi Straight which featured some intentionally unusual designs, I can't find a single one where I didn't like how they draw women.  Don't know what it is.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on May 12, 2012, 12:28:58 AM
Shirou is adopted, his parents die in the fire at the climax. That's why you won't see him until the end of the series. 
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 12, 2012, 08:04:26 AM
I don't think that's a spoiler because I think we knew that from Fate Stay Night.  Doesn't change the fact that, by now, because of Shirou's memories of Kiritsugu, he should be in the picture, even if off-camera.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on May 12, 2012, 03:04:35 PM
Now I'm just confused. If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that they were already father and son at this point, and that they should spend time together. However, Shirou doesn't becomes Kiritsugu's son until after the disaster, in fact they don't even meet until that point as far as I know. He may show up at some point for foreshadowing or something, but certainly not for scenes you are talking about (unless there are flash forwards, but I somehow doubt it).
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on May 12, 2012, 07:05:11 PM
Admittedly it's been a while since I watched Fate / Stay Night, so maybe I'm remembering details wrong.  If you say he adopted Shirou after the disaster, then that shoots my whole thing to hell.  And since I can't remember the timeline of events, I'm probably wrong.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on May 12, 2012, 07:07:09 PM
19:

So Kiritsugu is an absolute utilitarian. And (almost) a sociopathic one too. If it weren't for his human touch and the nuances, he is pretty much up there... with Kyubey.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on May 12, 2012, 11:17:30 PM
Episode 19

To think that there was a backstory to even the magical bullet Kiritsugu fired at Keyneth, which is awesome.  Still, while I was not surprised at what happened at the end, Kiritsugu is one hell of a crazy bastard.  At the sametime, it is pretty sad and it explains why his view on justice is the way it is.  It reminds me of the consequences of Shirou's tale after living his dream in a way.  Like father, like son in a depressing sense.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Hokuto_Spirit on May 13, 2012, 01:40:21 AM
@TypicalIdiotFan

To confirm, yes, Kiritsugu only meets and adopts Shirou after the war is over.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on May 13, 2012, 05:36:01 AM
Shirou was the only survivor of the shit hitting the fan at the end of the 4th Holy Grail War.  That's when Kiritsugu first meets and adopts him.  IIRC, Shirou is aged 7 at the time.

I wasn't a fan of this two-parter.  It's not that they were poorly executed, it's just that I've come out of the back end of them sympathizing with Kiritsugu even less than I had previously.  In fact, when Natalia implicitly describes him as a "machine or a phenomenon" because he acts perfectly rational rather than out of his own desires, she hits the nail on the head.

To be blunt, he's boring.  He's the most robotic character in the series, which is already filled with super serious people.  But the others also display some amount of emotion or confusion that betrays a human side.  The few times it's happened with Kiritsugu, it doesn't feel right.  Something about it is forced.  On the other hand, Kirie's transformation to rebellious traitor comes off as believable because we've seen the way Gilgamesh has been steadily manipulating him over the course of the series.

I kinda wish Irisviel was the main character, rather than Kiritsugu.  Irisviel is so much easier to like than Kiritsugu.  It's inevitable that the finale will come down to a confrontation between Kiritsugu and Kirie, but at this stage, I'm not sure who I want to root for.  If it were Irisviel, there's no question that I'd have a emotional investment in what happens to her.  (With that said, I do anyway).
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on May 13, 2012, 09:39:52 AM
19

Happy Mother's Day everyone!
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Cadavera on May 14, 2012, 05:52:45 PM
18:

Got to love how this show ties in all of the elements from past Type Moon works effortlessly and without much exposition. First Akasha and the Great Holy Grail in the last episode (unless you watched Kara No Kyoukai, and read Heaven's Feel, that whole conversation between Kirei and Gilgamesh went right over your head), and now Dead Apostles from Tsukihime. It really does reward the people who went through the rest of Type Moon's works, and yet is accessible enough to not detract from the newer viewer's experience of the show. Well done.
Also, an old friend from Kara no Kyoukai.

(http://i.imgur.com/DtO1q.jpg)

Edit: I assume this is from before he went insane and become obsessed with killing a so-called "dirty red".

To add to this, Natalia smokes the same cigarettes as Touko.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on May 19, 2012, 04:15:16 PM
Episode 20

It looks like Berserker will unsheath his sword and reveal his face sometime soon.  Other then that, this episode was on the money with a good amount of stuff they touched on.  (Rider/Velvet, Kariya, etc.)  Interesting way to end the episode as well.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on May 19, 2012, 08:11:23 PM
20:

Maiya's story is all too typical: a person from a destructive country and no family gets taken in by someone and thus looks up to him as his savior. And now she's dead. Too short-lived if you ask me. As for Kariya, man, how many bugs does it take to make him up...

It's a four-way battle now, and I'm not sure how it's gonna swing. From the end of the episode, it seems like it's going to be a  Saber x Rider and Archer x Berserker, but there isn't enough exposure between the latter pair. In fact, I can't see how Berserker fits into the picture since Saber, Rider and Archer are more fixated at each other and Berserker seems to be the wild card.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Jack Rav on May 20, 2012, 01:46:57 PM
^ I'm still holding out for a Saber x Berserker confrontation of some sort.

Also, re; the Maiya background story and consequent reaction of Kiritsugu; at least it was better than the reaction last episode. That was way over the top, and this was more affecting.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on May 20, 2012, 02:24:35 PM
20:

Yeah this episode just confirms that I disagree with SK's take on the two flashback episodes. They added the emotional weight to his actions, besides of course the conceptual importance of how fate deconstructs the meaning of a hero (Which was put first by Nasu, not Gen), and I doubt any of his actions as this series comes to an end would have the proper sense of tragedy without. You don't have to like his choices in life of course, and I know very well some have to outright hate him over it, but the ground for understanding and seeing the sadness of his life is there.

Anyhow, this episode before the ending scene was mostly a calm before the storm. That's perfectly fine. The next 5 episodes or so are pretty much what I been waiting for all along in Fate/Zero and I am sure Ufotable wil not disappoint. The Kirtitsugu x Kotomine conflict which will presumably surface is going to be pretty juicy. Now that Kiritsugu has avalon Kotomine can torture him as much as he wants without him dieing. Who said Urobuchi Gen  doesn't write "good ends"  :P.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on May 26, 2012, 12:26:44 PM
21

Holy crap.  Kirei is the best character in this entire show.  Trolls gonna troll.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on May 26, 2012, 01:05:38 PM
Episode 21

It is official, this incarnation of Saber is far more badass and awesome then in F/SN and the Unlimited Blade Works film.  Honestly, if she could use her Invisible Air ability to bolster her motorcycle then I can't understand why couldn't she apply that application later on with Shirou.  Oh, the possibilities that were blown. 

Also, Kirei is one of the most awesome villians ever and his manipulation was magnificent.  I don't know of any villian this season or from the past one that could top him really.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on May 26, 2012, 01:31:30 PM
Episode 21

It is official, this incarnation of Saber is far more badass and awesome then in F/SN and the Unlimited Blade Works film.  Honestly, if she could use her Invisible Air ability to bolster her motorcycle then I can't understand why couldn't she apply that application later on with Shirou.  Oh, the possibilities that were blown. 

Also, Kirei is one of the most awesome villians ever and his manipulation was magnificent.  I don't know of any villian this season or from the past one that could top him really.

In F/SN she has low mana for abilities. Shirou does not have much mana to keep Saber in full power.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: HirakuNoShadow on May 26, 2012, 04:28:00 PM
21:

Kirei basically manages to kidnap a homunculus, kill a woman, get two servants to start fighting each other, and ruin two people's lives using one dead man. Goddamn this man is magnificent.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on May 26, 2012, 07:24:09 PM
21:

Kirei basically manages to kidnap a homunculus, kill a woman, get two servants to start fighting each other, and ruin two people's lives using one dead man. Goddamn this man is magnificent.

And finally, feels that his wine tastes differently this time round. FEELS LIKE A SIR, doesn't he.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Sorrow-kun on May 27, 2012, 02:33:56 AM
Ep 21

Only Urobuchi could be this cruel to his characters.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on June 02, 2012, 03:22:35 PM
Episode 21

Two things that made this episode:

1. Rider's conversation with the old man.
2. The ending since it was sick.

Now, it looks like the Rider/Gilgamesh and Saber/Berserker battles will be underway.  Those are going to be some pretty awesome episodes, especially once Berserker unsheathes his sword.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on June 04, 2012, 11:30:05 AM
22:

I don't think you'll see a better set up episode than that.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on June 09, 2012, 10:57:42 AM
Episode 23

That was an awesome episode and definitely a great way to setup for the finale.  This version of Gilgamesh is infinitely more awesome then his other incarnations in the other adaptations.  I just can't understand why they couldn't let Gilgamesh show some character since he is far too hollow and one dimensional in the others.

Anways, Saber still taking on Berserker and the matchup between Kirei and Kiritsugu is up next.  Can't wait.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on June 09, 2012, 01:23:06 PM
23

I really like how everything the show has been building up among the three kings are finally hitting their explosive conclusions.  It's incredibly satisfying to see the growth, maturation and conclusion of these plot points.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on June 09, 2012, 04:34:22 PM
23:

Just wow. The emotion, the visual captivation, the dialogue, everything. Amazing.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on June 11, 2012, 09:28:11 PM
22, 23:

My respect goes to Broskandar. Even if he knew that his chances of victory is slim to none and that his army would be torn in pieces, he went out in glorious fashion. Now that's a real king at heart for you: always unwavered and focused on what you have to do. Perhaps that's the very message that he wanted to impart to Saber, but what she couldn't understand.

Now that one semi-final's over, let's see what happens in the other Saber-Berserker semi-final.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: HirakuNoShadow on June 16, 2012, 02:36:07 PM
24:

Did I just miss an episode, or did they completely skip out on Berserker's story...?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AH on June 16, 2012, 03:09:00 PM
24

I imagine they may include an extra scene or two on the disc release to actually explain that part of the story and a couple of other things. Not that I mind too much myself, since they obviously had to use a limited running time and there's still more stuff to cover next time.

In any case, Kirei vs. Kiritsugu was nicely done, and the Grail sequence got the main points across reasonably effectively.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on June 16, 2012, 03:18:33 PM
24:

Ufotable is telling us here: If you want to see the full episode in all its glory (Lancelot fight with Saber specifically) purchase the blue rays.

I find this disappointing because I was highly anticipating this episode and much of it was cut for the blue rays as people feared it wouldn't fit properly in the TV broadcast. Bleh!

Still what was shown was really great and superbly done, just makes me wish I just waited until the blue ray to finish the series. I can't evaluate the full episode until then because there must've honestly been like 10 minutes cut out of the episode (Kinda like last season's episode 10 or 11 or w/e it was which had like 8 minutes cut out.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on June 16, 2012, 06:01:45 PM
24

Wow, the pacing was all over the place that episode.  I know the Blurays will fix this but it took me a second viewing to get my bearings on the Saber vs Berserker fight and Kiritsugu vs Kotomine in the Dark Knight bat cave.  The second part of the episode inside the Grail was an interesting look at Kiritsugu's philosophy from the perspective of a wish granting device akin to the Monkey's Paw.  Thanks to my gnawing curiosity, I read spoilers and knew what the Grail puts Kiritsugu through but it was nonetheless an emotionally effective scene.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 16, 2012, 06:09:53 PM
24:

Berserker turning out to be who he is revealed to be (naw, no spoilers here) actually makes so much sense in hindsight that I'm almost irritated I didn't think of it earlier.  The problem is, I thought they already told us who he was back in the first episode, but I'll go back and watch it to find out.  Knowing who he is, it now makes sense that he stood on an "annoyingly" level ground with Archer.  Considering Gilgamesh's legend, and he hinted to the only person he ever called friend in episode 23 (Enkidu, if you know the legend), the warrior in question would have to be one of those other legendary badasses; the kind of warrior that is always undefeated no matter what trials are thrown his way.  Kind of interesting, then, that in the Fate Nasuverse, these badass legendary heroes are BERSERKER classes (Heracles for Stay / Night, et al; our hero here).  It also explains why Saber was able to best him...

As for the rest, I adored the Grail ending up being the "careful what you wish for" type of item.  It is always so much more delicious when you realize that your miracle turns out to be a cursed gift no matter what you do.  In this case, Kiritsugu would have to bear the burden of slaughtering millions, if not billions, of people in order to save the other billions.  Not to mention his own beloved family, who are part of the "problem" that needed to be solved (Ilya demonstrates this quite well in Stay Night, etc).  In the end, it was too much for even a black and white personality to justify, and the only answer was to make sure that nobody would ever go after this damned thing ever again.

Much to Saber's chagrin... this, of course, is the set up for Stay Night, etc's Saber being a little more cynical about things, and she would only finally understand Kiritsugu's decision only when Denser Than Lead Shirou convinces her of what is right.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on June 16, 2012, 08:38:06 PM
24:

Man, I was wondering why the Saber-Berserker fight ended too prematurely. I can't understand why it had to end that way; Berserker's story deserves a lot more exposure and airtime. What's up with that.

There's always a catch when it comes to wish-granting; getting the Holy Grail is one thing but getting a wish is another. It's an irony that Kiritsugu's wish can't be granted because a wish is only valid if the wisher is able to understand it in the first place. Like how a person who wishes for world peace should first understand what "peace" even means. Perhaps that's the core of utilitarian thinking itself: when you think this way, you're already telling yourself that there's no such thing as saving everyone since you're already choosing who you want to save. In fact, that's what Kotomine said to Irisviel anyway.

But I have to wonder: how would Kotomine's wish be granted if he gets his hands on the Holy Grail...
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on June 16, 2012, 11:59:45 PM
Episode 24

So they reference Angra Mainyu who is in one of the Fate scenarios which was thought to be a servant.  Awesome!  That was a rather trippy episode and now we see the real explanation as to why Kiritsugu ordered Arthuria to destroy the Grail.  It is rather understandable and now I think I understand why Kiritsugu raised Shirou the way he did.  Speaking of which, maybe next episode we see that encounter and there.

Still, I was disappointed to see that they skimped on Lancelot's story since I thought that they had enough time to show it.  Plus, it didn't feel like I saw the actual battle per se.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on June 17, 2012, 01:24:33 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I don't really need to see Lancelot's story.  The look of anguish on Saber's face told a better story than words could have, and if you know Arthurian Legend, you should already know what drove the two of them apart (though Arthur still loved Lancelot even until his death).  Then again, KNOWING Arthurian Legend and what drove them apart makes it MORE interesting to see how they're going to get around this ****ing mess.

For those who don't know, what came between them (literally, HAH!) was Guinevere, Arthur's queen, who had a torrid affair with Lancelot.  With Saber being a chick, this part of the story got so much more delicious.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Hokuto_Spirit on June 23, 2012, 07:56:24 PM
25: Surprised how much they managed to fit into 23 minutes without it feeling rushed. Also, lol at the Kirei & Gilgamesh scene. I nearly fell out my chair when I saw Gilgamesh stark nude.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AC on June 23, 2012, 10:44:22 PM
Final:

Oh. So... that was it? Huh. That was... okay. Awfully simplistic but okay.

I don't know; I was expecting way more from the ending. At least something more climatic than an ending that simply explained the setup for Fate/Stay Night. Basically, the final episode just explained how Emiya and Shirou met and the latter resolved to finish the former's will, how Rin became the head of the Tohsaka residence, and Kirei became the ultimate winner. Still, I was expecting the ending to be better for some reason.

Hmm, kinda lost steam towards the end there...

--

My thoughts on Fate/ZERO:

Well, I was wondering before the start of the series on whether I needed to watch Fate/Stay Night first just to understand the universe better. Apparently not; although it may be better to do so since I can fully understand what goes on in Fate/ZERO otherwise -- like how I understood Rurouni Kenshin: Tsuiokuhen better because I watched the series first -- the flipside was, I embarked on the series on a clean slate and thus had no real expectations from it. Plus, Fate/ZERO somewhat started things in a first-timer friendly way: the first episode kinda set everything up in a succinct way, so by the end of it, I didn't really have any begging questions to ask.

As for the show itself, it's great. The presentation's amazing -- perhaps the main factor contributing to the success of this series is having ufotable producing it and not Studio DEEN -- and the aesthetics are expectedly wonderful. The first season was kinda slow (but not in a bad way) but things really kicked off from the second. There are only a few issues I have with Fate/ZERO:

1) The whole Archer/Berserker Macross Frontier fight in the beginning of season 2. Ahh... no thanks, that was a silly fight. Seeing Berserker hijack an F-15 was cool, but seeing him have a dogfight with Archer and his golden jet wasn't.

2) I still want to see more of what happened between Saber and Berserker in the past, even if it is a well-known legend. It felt hurried, and the fight ended without reaching the climax. It was too premature IMHO.

3) The ending was not as climatic as I thought. I didn't get to see Saber and Archer fight it out, and the ending felt more like a setup for Fate/Stay Night rather than the conclusion to Fate/ZERO. Simply put, I was expecting something else from it.

This is an 8/10 for me. It was great, but not HOLY SHIT! great. Not sure if I want to embark on Fate/Stay Night now and see what eventually happened, but at least I didn't regret watching this ahead of it. Good job, ufotable.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on June 23, 2012, 11:14:57 PM
25:

For me the series ended on a perfect note. This is probably where being a player of the F/S N visual novel is critical because that's what this is a prequel off. The intended audience of the LN were the VN readers. For VN readers the scene this ends at is the end of Kiritsugu's journey and the beginning of Shiro's. This is where Shiro brought him inner peace and Shiro was cursed with the dreams of being an ally of justice.

The climax was last episode in the Kiritsugu Kirie fight (And in the BD hopefully the Saber Berserker fight as well). For me I appreciate this last episode as it doesn't leave any loose ends in question.

Overall I find the series difficult to rate. The full version is the BD and that's the one that will be remembered in a few years time so I won't feel it would be accurate to evaluate it right now. OBviously I expressed my feelings in the blog article about this but the way I evaluate the series true quality in the end will indeed be the BD. This means that the problem with the Saber Lancelot fight last episode will most liekly be amended which is a complaint I'm sure almost everyone has.

I couldn't really be pleased much more as a Type-Moon fan here besides a few complaints here and there on how well done this adaption is, and since I feel the way this was meant to be watched was as a reader of the F/S N VN, then I'm not going to bother seeing this from the POV of a casual watcher since that wasn't the intended audience in the first place.

I would say I'm going to give a preliminary rating of a 9/10, and we'll see if the BD can change my opinion on that matter. I doubt it since I rarely give 10's, but this comes close for me and I doubt I'll be enjoying any new anime like this anytime soon. Yes I'm a type-moon fanboy, shoot me.  :P
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Flash Sword Irene on June 24, 2012, 12:19:35 AM
Finale

This has been a really fun ride and I am satisifed with the ending for the most part.  The only real disappointment I have is the Saber/Berserker fight since that one seemed to be cut short alongside Kiritsugu/Kirei.  Plus, I wasn't expecting the conversation Kiritsugu had with Shirou to go the way it did since it went differently then imagined.  I only say that since I still remember imagining that conversation being different when it was brought up only one or two times in F/SN.  Then again, the way F/SN portrayed the climax of this show seemed different as well.

Not that it matters since this show rocks and the other sucks.  Still, I wonder how in the hell Kirei dulled so much afterwards since he was so awesome and interesting here?  In anycase, this has been an excellent show and I certainly am thankful for UFOTable having the reigns for this adaptation. 

Rating: 8/10
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: AH on June 24, 2012, 12:56:56 AM
25

I'm positively surprised they  included some of the Saber and Lancelot talk after all, not just leave it for the discs, even if does come across slightly oddly here. Other than that...it was alright for an epilogue episode. As expected, it wrapped up a few loose ends and foreshadowed some future developments. Can't complain much.

Overall, I'd probably give the show about an 8.5/10 or so. Not a 9 though, but close enough.

Plus, I wasn't expecting the conversation Kiritsugu had with Shirou to go the way it did since it went differently then imagined.  I only say that since I still remember imagining that conversation being different when it was brought up only one or two times in F/SN.  Then again, the way F/SN portrayed the climax of this show seemed different as well.

Kiritsugu and Shirou did have more than one conversation, of course, so you may be remembering another of those talks...but the one specific discussion shown here is basically the same as its F/SN equivalent. Now, the final battle between Saber and Gilgamesh in particular was portrayed very differently in F/SN, yes, but it can be explained away as Saber not wanting to tell Shirou everything at first and also as her trying to save face. Most of the other details are basically compatible though, by and large, plus the few true retcons have been for the better.

Quote
Still, I wonder how in the hell Kirei dulled so much afterwards since he was so awesome and interesting here? 

I'd say F/Z Kirei was a conflicted man still trying to find the truth about himself, which made his fall very interesting to watch, while F/SN Kirei already knows what brings him pleasure, so he's a more static character as a whole.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Rummbles on July 10, 2012, 12:33:43 AM

This is an 8/10 for me. It was great, but not HOLY SHIT! great. Not sure if I want to embark on Fate/Stay Night now and see what eventually happened, but at least I didn't regret watching this ahead of it. Good job, ufotable.

Now I know this is a bit delayed and that I don't post often and such and such, but I would definitely continue Fate/Stay Night so that you can see your epic final battle between Saber and Archer.
Secondly, would anyone else be adverse to an episode 19-20 extended cut?  :P, It seems to me that, that story could almost be a standalone, imo.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on January 27, 2013, 10:38:50 PM
A while ago Fate/Stay Night was re-released on the Playstation Vita accompanied by 3 new OPs animated by ufotable.  It took a while for them to get up on Youtube, but I've managed to find 2 of them.  (Note: The video quality is low because it's a screen rip from the Vita.)

Unlimited Blade Works (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MipJYPd_JI)
Heaven's Feel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG9MFbCIArI)
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on January 27, 2013, 10:47:00 PM
Here is the one from Fate:

http://vimeo.com/49249094

And alternate videos for the other 2, UBW and HF respectively.

http://vimeo.com/54462594
http://vimeo.com/54741877

It really makes me hope that Ufotable will one day readapt all of Fate/Stay Night, but at the very least HF. The disparity between the two anime is not just because one revolved around adults and the other teenagers (As much as people like to point that out). There is a lot of interesting things in the anime that were just lost in DEEN's piece of shit adaption. Not that Fate/Zero isn't a bit decidedly darker (Though HF comes close to its tone many times), but the level of complexity in the story is not that much greater. Gen wrote Fate/Zero, but he was still afterall given all the ideas for the story by Nasu. Gen is a very good writer, but he didn't invent all the interesting concepts and ideas through Fate/Zero, they were already present in the original story.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on January 27, 2013, 10:58:31 PM
I wonder what Heaven's Feel adaptation would be like without Fate and UBW to serve as background for the events.  Though the arc is its own standalone narrative, it does draw heavily from the previous arcs.  I fear that new viewers will miss the core dilemma of the route which is the choice between being a hero and saving Sakura.  Without the previous material showing how much being a hero means to Shirou, Heaven's Feel may come across as an amusing shounen action series about a damsel in distress and a knight in shining armor in the making.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on January 28, 2013, 01:30:21 AM
I would also be curious to see how viewers would react to Heavenly Feel (lol) without prior knowledge of Kara No Kyoudai and the Nasuverse in general, because otherwise the explanation of what the Holy Grail really is wouldn't make much sense. Speaking of which, there have been 3 anime adaptations of the fate universe, and none of them bothered to adequately explain the Holy Grail. Simply amazing. But yes, we definitely need an HF adaptation.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Fumoffu!! on January 28, 2013, 04:49:04 AM
Quite a coincidence, I just finished Fate/Zero yesterday, I was going to watch Fate/Stay Night, but if there's going to be a readaptation.... I think I will wait.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on January 28, 2013, 09:25:14 AM
Quite a coincidence, I just finished Fate/Zero yesterday, I was going to watch Fate/Stay Night, but if there's going to be a readaptation.... I think I will wait.

No, this was a one-off for the PS Vita games.  There's no confirmed remake.  However, I wouldn't suggest the DEEN adaption of Fate/Stay Night since it's crushingly mediocre.   The only presentable version of FSN is the original visual novels, but they are unnecessarily verbose and has the combined length of the entire Lord of the Rings book collection (also the sex scenes are hilariously immersion breaking).
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on January 28, 2013, 11:16:41 AM
Yeah the anime is simply not worth it. The visual novels are the only way to digest the story as things stand right now. There is the sex free version though :p.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on January 29, 2013, 01:03:17 AM
Hey, it could be worse. Bad CG Dragon and dolphins, anyone?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on December 29, 2013, 07:31:01 PM
It's here! http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-12-27/new-fate/stay-night-anime-by-ufotable-previewed-in-teaser-video
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on December 29, 2013, 07:42:56 PM
I wonder if ufotable will merge the arcs, focus on one of the arcs or adapt all three arcs.  Personally, I think that all three arcs could be told in 36 episodes, so I'm hoping for that.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on December 29, 2013, 08:13:23 PM
Merge the routes is asking for failure. The routes have such different events (no point of contact) that merging them is not a good idea. The biggest mistake from most of the VN adaptations is mixing routes. I have hope for Heavens Feels, otherwise I will not watch probably.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on December 29, 2013, 09:02:11 PM
Either do all 3 or just do heavens feel. Ufotable is better at doing darker stuff anyway (though I dunno if they have done anything that wasn't dark).
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: MCAL on December 29, 2013, 09:06:06 PM
Well, if there is a merge, it would be better to merge just Fate and UBW. It's simple. Do the Fate Route up to the battle with Rider, then switch to UBW and finish it there.

Do Heaven's Feel with that and you get Deen's F/SN. Sure, Sakura will be shafted AGAIN, but what can you do?

That or just do Heaven's Feel. It's only my second favorite route, but it is still very good.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on December 29, 2013, 11:18:29 PM
Heavens Feel is the natural progression from Fate/Zero. And the only route that explains the truth about the Grail and its mythology.

Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on December 29, 2013, 11:40:06 PM
Heaven's feel requires Fate and UBW to be truly understood because F/SN's narrative won't work if it's just Heaven's feel. They should do the smart thing and just adapt all the routes separately and i'm not content with the both butchered adaptations of LOLDEEN especially with the UBW route. Also i believe that 36 episodes is not enough. Remember that this is the VN that said to exceed the Lord of the Rings word count especially taking the other branching paths into account.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on December 30, 2013, 12:11:15 AM
I dont think they will adapt each route separately. Would be ideal, however.

Is unprecedented (excluding short omnibus) and not natural in anime medium.

I dont have a lot faith in this. This is not Fate/Zero, linear and a lot short.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Funky Dealer on December 30, 2013, 12:21:48 AM
Yeah, Heaven's Feel seems like the only option if they're doing only one route. The DEEN anime is the Fate route with a mess of other route details mixed in, and the UBW movie is a route cut down to fit an hour and a half of time, but they have been done. Adapting all the routes would be preferred, but that will take a long time to get through, and who knows if ufotable's willing to take on three routes worth of content like that. And at least HF ties in nicely with Zero, even if you lose the extra narrative from the other two routes.

Needless to say, this should be fun. At least ufotable guarantees it won't be a flop, and anything goes when we're just told it's a new project.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on December 30, 2013, 01:20:50 AM
Personally I want to see all 3 routes adapted by ufotable one after the other. Otherwise I'll take an HF adaption (Though I do like UBW better overall even if HF's best scenes are better).

Sadly the UBW movie could hardly be called an adaption, so as far as I am concerned, it belongs in the same realm as the nonexistent Tsukihime anime.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 30, 2013, 02:18:29 AM
Remember that this is the VN that said to exceed the Lord of the Rings word count especially taking the other branching paths into account.

Take out the sex scenes and obnoxious repetitions of phrases such as "THIS CHAIR!" and J R R Tolkien is still the king.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on December 30, 2013, 03:08:22 AM
From that teaser chances are high that they will adapt all the routes. Why would they show those footages from Fate, UBW and Heaven's feel in the same video in the first place if not right?

Take out the sex scenes and obnoxious repetitions of phrases such as "THIS CHAIR! J R R Tolkien is still the king.

The sex scenes are only like 5% of the entire VN and i believe George R.R. Martin have surpassed him a long time ago but that is an another story. Also the hilarious "THIS CHAIR" thing is from Tsukihime.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on December 30, 2013, 08:53:04 AM
So uh how many episodes per route you think we need? 13 each? Might be a bit too small to try and explain everything but it would certainly make things more adrenaline pumping.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on December 30, 2013, 04:51:34 PM
13 episodes is not enough. It will be like the UBW movie where it's all just action and the characterization and the plot is barely there.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on December 30, 2013, 05:41:45 PM
Well 26 episodes per route would be ideal...but highlyyy unlikely.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on December 30, 2013, 07:11:37 PM
If Ufotable can't even do all the routes with 20+ episodes, then they should just drop the project -_-
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on December 30, 2013, 07:36:43 PM
Is unprecedented (excluding short omnibus) and not natural in anime medium.

Higurashi managed to pull it off rather well.  Though, there is no direct character tie between the arcs, there is a thematic growth that runs across the arcs.

13 episodes is not enough. It will be like the UBW movie where it's all just action and the characterization and the plot is barely there.
I actually disagree.  If you were to cut down the explanations of the mechanics of the magicks to the minimum necessary to understand what is going on, and if you were to condense all the daily banter to two to three scenes, then each arc can be done just fine in 12-13 episodes.  However, the show would essentially be a fast paced action series instead of the daily life of Shirou made interesting by the all the crazy stuff happening in his life. 

I admit that 12 episodes would not work with UBW and Heaven's Feel if you were to adapt them cold.  You need the build up and explanations in Fate, then proceed to UBW filling in gaps that were not covered in Fate, then Heaven's Feel with the final explanations.

Well 26 episodes per route would be ideal...but highlyyy unlikely.
I would say around 16 episodes each would be ideal.   Fate/Stay Night is actually not that complex a narrative.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on December 30, 2013, 07:54:15 PM
I guess it's also Nasu's fault that the VN got so long because of his writing, which is dense as a neutron star and full of info dumps, and i'm a sucker for info dumps. I guess we'll just see although if there is a route that might work in 13 episodes....It's probably the Fate route.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 30, 2013, 08:38:56 PM
Did JC Staff last season not prove that a complex VN story can be done in 13 episodes or are we going to have to start this ****ing argument again?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on December 30, 2013, 08:44:38 PM
I'm just afraid of another fate zero ending where everything is rushed and confusing as all hell. Would like to avoid that if possible. FSN's mechanics are obviously so complicated that its kinda hard not to info dump them, it's essentially nerdgasm the visual novel.

Though since they are bothering to call it fate/stay night instead of just heavens feel. I think it's safe to assume they are going to adapt all 3. Unless they just want to adapt fate, in which case they suck but we all know ufotable doesn't suck. I mean perhaps they could just...do their own thing with it. But I doubt they would bother as I'm pretty sure by announcing this they are aware that fans weren't pleased with the first season.

16 episodes does sound pretty good with solid directing though.

And with Higurashi working as an omnibus, yeah it worked out ok, but it was a very strange experience to get used to. I actually had to check a wiki to see if I was watching the right series still. But I think that one anime made everyone ok with the concept, so it's not so unnatural anymore.


Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on December 30, 2013, 10:08:36 PM
I could see maybe a 51-52 episode series with about 17-18 episodes a route. If they keep the writing tight, and make some directional changes, it could work very well. It would probably do the story better if it spent less time focusing on cooking food. While these scenes certainly can be amusing, the serious mood in HF in particular would benefit from less of this "house playing."
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on December 30, 2013, 10:33:16 PM
Did JC Staff last season not prove that a complex VN story can be done in 13 episodes or are we going to have to start this ****ing argument again?

Each case is unique. It's not like LB was the most complex of all VN.

The merge of routes doesnt work here. F/SN doesnt have a true route like LB.

Quote
And with Higurashi working as an omnibus, yeah it worked out ok, but it was a very strange experience to get used to. I actually had to check a wiki to see if I was watching the right series still. But I think that one anime made everyone ok with the concept, so it's not so unnatural anymore.

Higurashi is linear, a lot more easier. Higurashi ties all arcs in the ending. There isnt nothing similar to this in F/SN.

The Reckoner's idea would have to explain the transition between the routes.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: SQA on December 30, 2013, 10:39:02 PM
For VNs, it comes down to Director & Writing staff.

You can compress a MASSIVE amount of text down, if you integrate the Writing & Storyboarding together.  The "pull" of a VN adaptation is to put in a heavy amount of the direct dialogue, but VNs are almost wholly written works with some attached visuals & music.  Anime is a visual medium first, so if you can resist the "pull", a Director can produce a great adaptation of a VN or LN.  This is also why Manga adaptations tend to be less disastrous: Manga is a visual medium before it's a written one.

Still, I hope it goes well.  This is a monster seller, if they handle it properly.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 31, 2013, 12:00:01 AM
Each case is unique. It's not like LB was the most complex of all VN.

The merge of routes doesnt work here. F/SN doesnt have a true route like LB.

So... that's a "yes, we're going to have to start this argument again."

God damnit.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on December 31, 2013, 02:15:23 AM
Depends on who you talk to TIF. There's still plenty of LB VN readers who swear the anime was a shit adaption and the only reason ppl like you think clannad is better  is because JC Staff is a shitcan studio. What can you do.

In any case, there is plenty of stuff that can be cut down on in F/S N. However, what made LB complicated wasn't the amount of content so much as is the nature of the loops and the omnibus issue. JC staff did a pretty good job at making it seem like a continuous story. IN the case of fate though, it's just a matter of how time they want to devote. The UBW movie proves that you at least need more than 2 hours to tell UBW I would hope. It was downright incomprehensible. If you double'd that to 4 hours, it still wouldn't help much and that'd be approximately a cour worth of episodes. In my opinion, the fate routes need more than 1 cour each to be able to function. 17 might be enough. I actually do think refrain needed 17 as well (Well really it needed two 26 episode runs with a few episodes more each for each girl's route).

Also, refrain is pretty short. It's actually not a lot of reading material. Fate routes are much longer.

tl;dr since i ramble too much. Refrain didn't prove much, it actually could've used a few more episodes. Refrain is shorter than fate routes, so it actually shows fate needs more episodes per route.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on December 31, 2013, 05:33:20 AM
Ugh...
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Aelms on January 01, 2014, 10:55:30 AM
There's no point trying to dismiss an entire topic just because there is one example of a compressed VN adaptation working out. It's true that Refrain did a good job. It's also one of the few (if not the only) example of a highly entertaining show that abridges a significant amount of material from the original. Studios have nothing to do with this.

Not that I want to play the "VN reader" card for every adaptation but FS/N has more core material than LB! relatively simple plot. There's also no reason to completely dismiss the criticisms that people have for previous adaptations, which mainly boils down to the missing material.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on January 01, 2014, 11:11:40 AM
Well I think the point TIF wants to make is to just wait and see how they handle it. I mean it's best not to judge before watching it as they might surprise you. It's ufotable afterall and they are good stuff.

Kanon is still the best VN adaption I've seen, being far superior to its source material. It kinda keeps my hopes up. Also I prefer the AIR movie to the anime, and that's like a super abridgement of that series hah.

Then again it's never been a big deal in the first place. If the anime adaption fails...then just go back to reading the VN. I mean anime adaptions are more for people who don't have the patience to put up with a VN anyway.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on January 01, 2014, 11:59:25 PM
Quote
There's no point trying to dismiss an entire topic just because there is one example of a compressed VN adaptation working out.

It is almost as if other VN adaptations don't exist!

Quote
Well I think the point TIF wants to make is to just wait and see how they handle it.

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING!

Like I said, this is the same stupid argument as before.

Dork:  "Oh, they're adapting Refrain!"
Nerd:  "It's only going to be one cour!"
Dork:  "WHAT?!  How stupid!  You can't do one cour!"
Nerd:  "Yeah that's the kind of paranoid delusion I'm under as well!"
Dork:  "We should riot before they even air it!"
Nerd:  "Yeah!  Kill 'em all!"
Me:  "..."

Give it a chance before you go hog wild.  If it ends up sucking, THEN rake people over the coals.  But you guys aren't even sure if they're only adapting one arc or all of them.  Let us at least figure out what they're doing before you start kvetching about series lengths and adaptations and whatever.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Aelms on January 02, 2014, 04:09:31 AM
Quote
There's no point trying to dismiss an entire topic just because there is one example of a compressed VN adaptation working out.

It is almost as if other VN adaptations don't exist!

I mean that as in LB! significantly compressing its material and still being claimed as an extremely good adaptation. I don't think other adaptations have to same claim to them. Feel free to disagree.

It's one thing to avoid bashing a studio because of the perceived quality of an adaptation with the studio's previous works as a basis (which I agree is stupid) but its an entirely different thing to talk down on any kind of speculation about something that VN fans are very excited to see (re-)adapted. It's because we don't know how it's going to be adapted that we're looking for and speaking our own opinions.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on January 02, 2014, 11:27:07 AM
Careful consideration must also be given to the fact that we have parts of fate stay night already adapted and so we know the limitations of an adaption for it. Fate had two cours and that was honestly just about right, except the adaption itself was really crappy. The UBw movie was one of the worst vn adaptions there ever has been.

Ufotable understands type moon, I'm not worried about that aspect of the adaption. However I think we know well enough how much time each route requires, approximately. Removing all the details in a type moon work is a quick route to another deen adaption. The details are what make this universe and its characters so compelling. The original anime already did enough damage to shiro's character.

In any case I think 17 episodes per route seems the most logical if they choose to adapt everything.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Aeshma on January 02, 2014, 11:37:27 AM
I tried reading the Fate stay night VN and found it pretty boring. F/Z was an alright show, though.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on January 02, 2014, 04:14:04 PM
^Let me guess, you haven't even got past of the prologue aren't ya?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Aeshma on January 02, 2014, 04:54:51 PM
^Let me guess, you haven't even got past of the prologue aren't ya?

I got to the part where Saber fights Rider in a building and the writer spends seven pages or so to explain in detail why Saber couldn´t hit Rider´s pegasus - not because it is too fast for her to catch, but some utter nonsense about pegasii being akin to dragons in a mythological sense and Saber turning out to be weak against dragons, therefore she can´t hit it. I got fed up with it and dropped it.

The DEEN show wasn´t very good, and I read a lot of complains about it, but the VN is such a snorefest. The pacing is glacial, and you have to wade through seemingly endless padding to get to anything remotely interesting. It´s like the writer got paid by the word.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on January 02, 2014, 05:43:57 PM
I hate you people.  All of you.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on January 02, 2014, 08:56:18 PM
^Let me guess, you haven't even got past of the prologue aren't ya?

I got to the part where Saber fights Rider in a building and the writer spends seven pages or so to explain in detail why Saber couldn´t hit Rider´s pegasus - not because it is too fast for her to catch, but some utter nonsense about pegasii being akin to dragons in a mythological sense and Saber turning out to be weak against dragons, therefore she can´t hit it. I got fed up with it and dropped it.

The DEEN show wasn´t very good, and I read a lot of complains about it, but the VN is such a snorefest. The pacing is glacial, and you have to wade through seemingly endless padding to get to anything remotely interesting. It´s like the writer got paid by the word.

What you call boring, it is what matters to many in the franchise, not a simplistic clash of powers.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on January 03, 2014, 12:36:51 AM
How fans apparently want that scene done:

Shiro:  "Saber, your big flashy attack didn't work on Rider's mount!"

Saber:  "So it seems.  I wonder why."

Scene pauses.  Out trots a superderformed Nasu who sits down in a mini char in the middle of the screen and starts explaining... for six hours... the nuances of why Saber, a gender-bent incarnation of King Arthur's heroic spirit, is weak against dragons, and how the Pegasus is dragon-like, because this whole ****ing gameplay necessary paper-scissors-stone stuff is SO relevant to the plot.

SD Nasu trots off screen, tripping on the way.  Scene unpauses and the characters go on with the rest of the eighty episode show never again discussing this plot point, because it wont ****ing matter in five minutes when Saber still somehow manages to defeat Rider.

How I would do the scene:

Shiro: "Saber, your big flashy attack didn't work on Rider's mount!"

Saber:  "So it seems, but the irrelevant mystery will have to be left as a foreshadow of something to be revealed later, because I'll try something else now and defeat her in 5 minutes."

Shiro:  "Huh... that seems like it would save us six hours of unnecessary exposition."

Scene pauses.  TIF's middle finger appears on the screen for six seconds.  Scene unpauses.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on January 03, 2014, 03:53:17 AM
^Let me guess, you haven't even got past of the prologue aren't ya?

I got to the part where Saber fights Rider in a building and the writer spends seven pages or so to explain in detail why Saber couldn´t hit Rider´s pegasus - not because it is too fast for her to catch, but some utter nonsense about pegasii being akin to dragons in a mythological sense and Saber turning out to be weak against dragons, therefore she can´t hit it. I got fed up with it and dropped it.

The DEEN show wasn´t very good, and I read a lot of complains about it, but the VN is such a snorefest. The pacing is glacial, and you have to wade through seemingly endless padding to get to anything remotely interesting. It´s like the writer got paid by the word.

Most VNs do have slow pacing from the beginning. If you find it boring then well, there is nothing i can do about it. Fate is arguably the worst route after all and it's such a shame that you dropped it before you get into UBW and Heaven's feel, which are vastly different but is still part of the narrative and are canon as the fate route.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on January 03, 2014, 07:24:22 AM
I will agree that that is the main fault of Fate/Stay Night is that the fate route is just not very good. It's meant as exposition obviously, but until right before the end I felt like the author really wasn't doing much to spice things up. Other than the nerdgasm moments it was just supremely lacking. Though it's mainly because, even though Saber is a good character, she is probably the least interesting in the entire visual novel. Funny on how much faster the pacing of UBW is in comparison. It's like the difference between the original FMA and brotherhood. 

Unfortunately if you're going to have one part of your story be good, it's probably best for it to be the beginning (I don't necessarily agree with this line of thought personally though). Mainly because if your beginning doesn't hook the reader...then you won't have many readers. Though Fate gambled on this because it knew there was no way to explain the incredibly complex mechanics without large amounts of info dumps.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Aeshma on January 03, 2014, 08:12:23 AM
What you call boring, it is what matters to many in the franchise, not a simplistic clash of powers.

I´d rather have a simplistic clash of powers (which fights in this boils down to) than suffer through hours and hours of Shirou´s dailydoings.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on January 03, 2014, 11:46:11 PM
Well, i hope you would still watch the anime adaptation for at least both UBW and Heaven's feel.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on January 04, 2014, 06:09:13 AM
You just gotta tell people that it's like watching up to episode 12 of steins gate, or getting to clannad after story for the good stuff. Except it's even more extreme here.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on January 28, 2014, 09:56:12 AM
So apparently the new anime is going to be a new story not based on any of the routes. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=755363

That's cool, now we can stop complaining about adaption failure at least.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on January 28, 2014, 10:18:47 AM
I think is a fail. There is no much to explore on the same events. There is nothing new about any of the characters. Even with the rumors of Nasu writing the anime, I consider it a bad thing. In the end, will be a mashup of various routes disguised as something new.

Basically the new anime is a filler.

Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on January 28, 2014, 10:22:27 AM
I think they could do uh

Shirou turning into Archer


Might be interesting to see.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Kiniest on January 28, 2014, 10:43:50 AM
People are going to complain before it's even out. Why?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: MCAL on January 28, 2014, 10:50:08 AM
From my understanding, I thought it was going to still be Fate/Stay Night, but it would be something like a fourth route.

An Illya Route perhaps?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on January 28, 2014, 11:14:09 AM
You know what? This seems like a great opportunity to improve upon the original source. I'm staying optimistic here.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on January 28, 2014, 11:41:16 AM
From my understanding, I thought it was going to still be Fate/Stay Night, but it would be something like a fourth route.

An Illya Route perhaps?

That actually could be really interesting quite honestly.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on January 28, 2014, 03:13:01 PM
So apparently the new anime is going to be a new story not based on any of the routes. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=755363

That's cool, now we can stop complaining about adaption failure at least.

Oh you naive fool....
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on January 28, 2014, 04:42:24 PM
So apparently the new anime is going to be a new story not based on any of the routes. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=755363

That's cool, now we can stop complaining about adaption failure at least.

Oh you naive fool....

Damn me and my short sightedness.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Funky Dealer on January 28, 2014, 05:07:00 PM
Let's just go for broke and have a Saber Super Sentai show. It shouldn't be hard to come up with a green or a yellow now.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: KS on January 28, 2014, 05:50:13 PM
People are going to complain before it's even out. Why?

Are you even remotely familiar with how people act about announcements for new and long standing franchises on the internet?  Ever hear of the Sonic cycle?  Ever see the announcement of a new Zelda game?  Ever seen the leadup from the announcement of to the actual airing of a new Gundam series?  If not man would that I could be you.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Kiniest on January 28, 2014, 06:04:28 PM
If not man would that I could be you.

Huh?

Anyways, yeah, I know. It's just, god, I don't get people. Disappointment that it's not a direct adaptation of the game is understandable, but don't say it's going to suck 8 months before it comes out. It's obvious they're putting a lot of effort into making it. I mean, Fate/Zero was a hit, and it was pretty much "filler", too. (Although that's just a connotation people have made up with the word)

In the meantime, I'm playing the game for the first time.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: ImperialX on January 28, 2014, 06:25:49 PM
People are going to complain before it's even out. Why?

I actually only see one person here really complaining. Most people including myself are pretty happy about this arrangement.

In the meantime, I'm playing the game for the first time.

Play with the PS2 patch for voices.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Kiniest on January 28, 2014, 06:36:10 PM
People are going to complain before it's even out. Why?

I actually only see one person here really complaining. Most people including myself are pretty happy about this arrangement.

In the meantime, I'm playing the game for the first time.

Play with the PS2 patch for voices.

1. I'm mostly talking about the general anime fandom, rather than here.
2. I already am. Past the prologue. A lot of information.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: KS on January 28, 2014, 07:22:58 PM
People are going to complain before it's even out. Why?

I actually only see one person here really complaining. Most people including myself are pretty happy about this arrangement.

In the meantime, I'm playing the game for the first time.

Play with the PS2 patch for voices.

1. I'm mostly talking about the general anime fandom, rather than here.
2. I already am. Past the prologue. A lot of information.

Let me guess MAL right?  Anyway as far as I'm concerned general anime fandom is......*insert some not nice words here*, but when you actually meet most fans in person at a convention and what not I often find they couldn't be more down to Earth for the most part.  The anonymity of the internet does something to them though sometimes and it typically leads to a lot of really ignorant commentary.

Seriously though if you let it general anime fandom as it exists today will take everything you hold even the slightest bit sacred, shit all over it, probably still manage to miss some obvious point in doing so and then do it all over again next week while expressing the utmost feelings of entitlement and the pure unquestionable objectivity that they feel their position has.  The trick is to not fall into the trap of even so much as giving those types the time of day which I'll admit even I'm guilty of sometimes, but yeah it isn't always easy, especially when the bullshit starts to snowball on the popular forums to the point where you feel you just have to make some sort of appeal to reason and logic. 

The way I see it it's all just yet another example of how Fate's circumstances both in terms of the type of material and characters it handles and the type of fans it attracts is a lot like my own favorite franchise in Gundam.  Oh the stories I could tell you about the lead ups to pretty much every Gundam series since the start of the century and how much bitching would ensue to the point where people will have blatantly already decided that the show sucks (not the lack of a "will" or "might" that would imply a proper sense of the chronology of an actual stimulus->reaction response) before it even airs and thus they never really get a proper chance at making a good first impression anymore.  I doubt it will be that bad though, Fate is one of those franchises I feel that for the most part people aim to embrace if not so much for the sensible reason that everything should be afforded at least the chance to air it's first episode as because it's a way to fit in since it's pretty popular and as secondary and totally optional reason pretty complex and interesting. 

See the one thing I've figured out recently is that for the most part online anime fandom, save for places like NHRV which tends to cut through a lot of the bullshit to the heart of whatever show it is that's being discussed (which by the way I love about you folks), is a lot like a high school clique now in that it's all about perception, image and popularity and less about embracing the particular qualities of shows straight up or what goes on beneath the surface package and the hype or sometimes lack thereof that precludes a shows airing;     and while I think that the Fate franchise is plenty strong enough to stand on it's own without all the massive hype that Aniplex manages to generate for pretty much everything they produce I think it really strengthens it's position and sort of shields the franchise from the worst of the idiocy that modern anime fandom would otherwise probably visit upon it in discussion forums.  I think it could be a whole lot worse if it didn't bring with it the sheer fanaticism and loyalty that the Type/Moon brand obviously inspires so I wouldn't worry too much about future thread shitting or whatever or people not giving the new series it's proper due.

Anyway what I'm guessing happens is that this ends up like some sort of greatest hits compilation of the most popular parts of the original novels routes as long as they don't lead to any inherent contradictions in the storyline.  This could prove interesting and I don't see any particular reason to worry if Nasu himself is working on it.  I say let the show air and then we have the reaction as opposed to the other way around, but then hey who am I to make recommendations to the general online anime audience?

TL;DR:  If it was ever a secret my contempt for online anime fandom is probably several times yours so trust me when I say I understand your frustration and then some.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Kiniest on January 28, 2014, 08:26:07 PM
Let me guess MAL right?

Hit the nail on the spot. I tried fitting into MAL's community. The most pretentious part of it, that is. You try to be as open as you can to those people and they'll still hate you. And I'm not referring to "oh well I tried to be nice but he got mad so he's a bad person" kind of attempt at being open. I literally had one on one chats with these people and learned about their own reasons for why they were so conflicted about everything.

But the worst part about the fandom is that they're just as harsh with anime as they are with actual people. I had some folks their who couldn't register that they were talking to actual human beings when they scolded and put down. Granted, this is a similar problem with a large part of the internet, but few (save /b/ and the like) are as critical and cold as they are. Most other people (even on the internet, arguable depending on the spot you're at) at least try to keep an open mind and hold back if they have a problem with you. Now, I'm completely open to being told I have problems, and, as a matter of fact, prefer it when people tell me. But the people on MAL think that because it's the internet they can just say out in the open what's wrong with other people and be antagonist while doing so. That's mostly why it I get just as ticked off to see people bashing things they don't know about so nonchalantly; it's like a reflection on how they feel about other people.

Well, that was kind of irrelevant, but, hey, I need to rant, too, every now and then.

and then do it all over again next week while expressing the utmost feelings of entitlement and the pure unquestionable objectivity that they feel their position has

Very much this. Not only are people arrogant about their feelings towards anime, they also look down on anyone who disagrees with them. Using the word "opinion" is one of the worst traps you can use in any argument, and towards them, it's certainly no exception. Especially when you call them out for having their own opinion. Half of them will respond saying that it's not just an opinion, that other people agree with them and that it's fact. I had people hound at me because I told them that Fuko from Clannad was not "objectively" a joke of a character. He said that because most people agreed, it was the truth. Which was a load. The entire world has been against homosexuality and other such idiosyncracies based off of their own prejudices. Taste in anime is no different. What you like and what you dislike is based off your opinion of what you think is good writing. 99% of MAL can't seem to get that screwed into their heads.

I am fine with people having their own opinions. Very few people state their ideas as opinion. They state it as fact.

"Kill la Kill is a generic shounen. You can like it all you want but that's what it is."
"Stop defending it by saying it's fun. That doesn't excuse all of its other faults. (which would happen to be?)"

The difference between NihonReview and MAL for me is that, unlike MAL, you guys don't jackhammer your thoughts into each others heads and get hostile when someone else has a different take on things. You surely voice your disagreements, but you don't call the opposing side a "*****ng dumbshit", either.

ensue to the point where people will have blatantly already decided that the show sucks

Which basically killed a lot of the enjoyment I had in watching Little Busters: Refrain last season. People are so pessimistic about anime that it makes me wonder why they're even fans if they're just going to hate everything about it.

I find it amazing that most people can't realize what we do is niche, too niche. People call it anime fandom, but, really, we're just a niche that watches a certain set of shows because they're animated and from Japan. But it's called fandom, so everyone thinks they have to get involved with everything they hate. You can't talk to people in real life about the anime you like, because nobody wants to watch your weird kid's shows/maybe porno from Japan. Your only place to go to talk about anime is the internet, but that's just too f*cking bad, because all the anime fans want to do is talk about how much they hate anime. When you tell them they talk too much about that, they snap at you for trying to hold back their opinions. Honestly, if you don't like an anime, just stand back and don't piss off the people who are trying to enjoy it with each other. If you want to hate it with other people, that's fine; if you're asked your opinion, you can say you don't like it. But for the love of god, anime isn't made for you to hate it, it's made for you to enjoy it. So stop ruining everyone else's enjoyment.

That may seem hypocritical, considering the fact most people here do exactly what I just ranted about, but what you guys do is not antagonistic or really bashful to the people who like the show. I think you know what I'm talking about. I probably just said a lot of things that people will automatically agree with, here. But, overall, I think your idea of just ignoring the other people is just as universal.

TL;DR:  If it was ever a secret my contempt for online anime fandom is probably several times yours so trust me when I say I understand your frustration and then some.

Then your hatred for the anime community must be just as strong as my enthusiasm for anime, because I hate the anime community a lot more than I may seem to.

My own TL;DR: Feed me rant food and I'll rant.

If a community is friendly: They probably don't know nearly as much anime as MAL does.
If a community knows this much about anime: They're probably bitter and hard to get along with.

It's a lose lose situation.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: KS on January 28, 2014, 09:56:09 PM
Let me guess MAL right?

Hit the nail on the spot. I tried fitting into MAL's community. The most pretentious part of it, that is. You try to be as open as you can to those people and they'll still hate you. And I'm not referring to "oh well I tried to be nice but he got mad so he's a bad person" kind of attempt at being open. I literally had one on one chats with these people and learned about their own reasons for why they were so conflicted about everything.

But the worst part about the fandom is that they're just as harsh with anime as they are with actual people. I had some folks their who couldn't register that they were talking to actual human beings when they scolded and put down. Granted, this is a similar problem with a large part of the internet, but few (save /b/ and the like) are as critical and cold as they are. Most other people (even on the internet, arguable depending on the spot you're at) at least try to keep an open mind and hold back if they have a problem with you. Now, I'm completely open to being told I have problems, and, as a matter of fact, prefer it when people tell me. But the people on MAL think that because it's the internet they can just say out in the open what's wrong with other people and be antagonist while doing so. That's mostly why it I get just as ticked off to see people bashing things they don't know about so nonchalantly; it's like a reflection on how they feel about other people.

Well, that was kind of irrelevant, but, hey, I need to rant, too, every now and then.

Well I can be pretty harsh with a lot of MALers too, but it has more to do with just how shallow, meaningless and just plain mean spirited posting habits can get on that site.  It's a pitfall I try to avoid, but sometimes the shallowness and one note nature of the commentary and how it all blends together in a lot of episode discussions can make it easier than it should be to depersonalize the person that is obviously behind the message though in my case it's more of a frustration with how it doesn't feel like there's much if any thought that people are putting into what they post on that site and just replying with the opinions and one liners that they feel the community wants to hear. 

One of the first things I remember doing when I started dealing with the whole burnout issue was just stop posting on that site entirely and boy did it yield an immediate improvement in how much I'm able to enjoy what I'm watching and honestly just the mentality under which I watched anime.  Suddenly I found very quickly that things were becoming fun again and that I could laugh off the stupid shows out there that MAL always seems to find some way to champion a lot easier.  Basically it's just reaffirmed my view that the online anime community is toxic and any attempts to engage it in discussion will diminish rather than improve ones appreciation for the whole damn thing.  It's a bloody shame, I mean discussion of anime should be fun like it is here and occasionally on sites I find tend to have more reasonable and mature posters like Animesuki but alas it's just not meant to be where the bigger sites like MAL are concerned.

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Very much this. Not only are people arrogant about their feelings towards anime, they also look down on anyone who disagrees with them. Using the word "opinion" is one of the worst traps you can use in any argument, and towards them, it's certainly no exception. Especially when you call them out for having their own opinion. Half of them will respond saying that it's not just an opinion, that other people agree with them and that it's fact. I had people hound at me because I told them that Fuko from Clannad was not "objectively" a joke of a character. He said that because most people agreed, it was the truth. Which was a load. The entire world has been against homosexuality and other such idiosyncracies based off of their own prejudices. Taste in anime is no different. What you like and what you dislike is based off your opinion of what you think is good writing. 99% of MAL can't seem to get that screwed into their heads.

I'll never understand why people get so damn fanatical over Key material.  I'm not the only one that's noticed this either, even sites like ANN have personally commented on the phenomenon of fanatical behavior that they profess to have only ever seen from hardcore key fans and it's about one of the only positions I've ever wholeheartedly agreed with ANN on.  I believe it was put something like this by the sites editor Zac Bertschy: "Unless you specifically parrot....and it's a deep partisianship, I feel I should stress that...a very deep partisianship, but unless you exactly parrot what these people feel is the exact specific quality of the show and or a character, you better be ready because you're going to see people come out of the woodwork to tell you what a terrible person you are, how you don't know what your talking about and how you should lose your job for not being able to have your facts in order". 

As a more personal story, I once knew co-wrote for a blog where a person that I knew as a particularly strong advocate for Key stories was a writer covering the show and every so often, in spite of this guy being the most hardcore Key fanatic I've ever shared more than a short conversation with, somebody would show up, start a bitter argument with him over how he wasn't showing proper respect for the genius of Jun Maeda and Key and how much his writing sucked and it used to just floor me.  Like if this guy that practically breathed the Key brand and had it flowing through is very veins wasn't respectful and appreciative enough of the show then something must be wrong with that community.  A big part of the reason why I have such a hard time taking the anime community very seriously anymore and the more I talk with more adjusted people the more I learn that they've had similar experiences.  I often wonder if maybe I would have enjoyed the franchise a little more if I hadn't constantly had fans telling me how to watch it and what an awful human being I was for not appreciating it enough to give it an 11/10 or whatever.

But yeah that's sort of what I mean about how I've come to realize that the anime community for the most part is a lot like a high school clique with all the attempts at peer pressure that environment entails, but sometimes it goes a step further into what I can only describe as a manic almost cult like fanaticism for certain brands and Key always struck me as the prime example of that.

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I am fine with people having their own opinions. Very few people state their ideas as opinion. They state it as fact.

Yep, but try explaining that to them and watch them react like you've just slapped them across the face.  The inability for many to distinguish the subjective from the objective, which really shouldn't be all that hard is yet another reason I have little time for the majority of the online community nowadays. 

Quote
"Kill la Kill is a generic shounen. You can like it all you want but that's what it is."
"Stop defending it by saying it's fun. That doesn't excuse all of its other faults. (which would happen to be?)"

Again another example of what I see as the high school clique mentality of the community.  See a lot of people, particularly those on MAL seem to get it in their head that certain genres, studios, and staff members are by default automatically better than others and set up what I almost see as this glass ceiling like atmosphere where they essentially all but say, "this show is from so and so genre and therefore this is the maximum degree of positive and/or negative reception that can be attributed to it".  I often suspect the MAL community in particular of more or less deciding before a show even airs it's first episode on totally arbitrary sets of criteria the ultimate destiny in terms of reception and how the community for it is perceived by the whole in the long run, but have of course never been able to outright prove it so much as make what I feel is a good case for it in a couple of instances.

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The difference between NihonReview and MAL for me is that, unlike MAL, you guys don't jackhammer your thoughts into each others heads and get hostile when someone else has a different take on things. You surely voice your disagreements, but you don't call the opposing side a "*****ng dumbshit", either.

It's the repetition of it that definitely gets under my skin the most and that no matter what material or developments some shows bring from week to week they always seem to have the same sort of reactions in the long run (chief among reasons for my predetermined reception theory) in the episode discussion threads.  What I miss from when I first started to get into anime is when people would watch the episode and then discuss, and I mean really discuss the things that happened in the episodes proper and in the process enhance their own and each others appreciation of it.  The only forum I even see a hint of this sort of approach left on anymore these days is NHRV and Animesuki, though of course NHRV is smaller and more critically by nature so it's not quite the same.  Even still, what that I wouldn't give for more productive discussions about say the Gundam franchise or Hunter x Hunter.


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Which basically killed a lot of the enjoyment I had in watching Little Busters: Refrain last season. People are so pessimistic about anime that it makes me wonder why they're even fans if they're just going to hate everything about it.

Well this is a problem I've always had whenever the concept of Kyoto Animation enters the picture and really I can mark their rise to fame with Haruhi as when I first started to notice the quality of discussion in the anime community and really just how people treat the whole damn thing start to go downhill, but I feel that it really became apparent to everyone with just how badly Little Busters got thrown under the bus before it ever even aired simply because it wasn't by Kyoani.

I want to be careful about how I go about phrasing this here....let me put it this way...Kyoani is a pretty popular and well known studio with some great animation quality known for their popularization and usage of moe tropes right?  I could say the same for a lot of bigger studios these days, but one thing I've always noticed within the community is that for whatever reason Kyoani in particular seems to have been set aside and put on this pedestal where they are considered special and exceptional if not borderline unimpeachable in their approach to producing anime and it's a phenomenon I've referred to as "Kyoani Perfect".  What is "Kyoani Perfect" really? Well it's this perception, not necessarily a reality, but a perception that no matter what era, no matter the circumstances there's just this idea that everything they do is perfect and that anything not produced by them is by nature and default regardless of genre, content, tone, theme, idealogy, staff composition, whatever factor you can think of that we perceive from our end of the industry/consumer relationship, inferior.  It's also the tendency of it's fanbase (I'd argue that studio has it's own fanbase as opposed to just a fanbase for it's individual shows) to get really mad and come at you in waves when they feel that the idea of "Kyoani Perfect" is threatened by something you said, and it may have just been something you said in passing or a simple criticism of something that occurred in an episode or show, but it doesn't matter, you're about to hear it from the community big time.

Now I'll be the first to admit that I have some preferences in studios that I feel do things a certain way that I find tends to attract me to their works more than others and those that I find tend to repulse me more with their approach and I'd even argue that those favorite studios kind of do things better from the perspective I'm approaching their productions from.  Maybe sometimes I feel that people are unreasonably critical of those studios or whatever and I'll argue the case that they are in a post, but what I find with Kyoani that is not the case for any other producer at least that I have seen is that their NOT doing a show, or another show that is similar to a show they are doing in some capacity that is airing during that season, actually has an impact, usually negative, on how that show is received by the community and that I find is taking the whole "Kyoani Perfect" thing a step too far from simple studio appreciation to being flat out obnoxious and one of the things I was really glad to see with that whole ridiculous Little Busters controversy was to finally see some pushback on the matter of "Kyoani Perfect" and a plea for people to at least just give the J.C Staff adaptation a chance or at least allow people to enjoy it in something resembling peace.  I think that incident and the sort of wake up call it heralded has a lot to do with why Kyoto Animation's popularity isn't at the unimpeachable levels it once was these days just as much as the quality of the shows they've put out of late has clearly impacted their image, but in any case the whole "Kyoani Perfect"  is just nothing like I've ever seen in my 3 decades as a fan of anime before or since such that unlike others I wasn't at all surprised with how blown out of proportion the whole Little Busters thing became.

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I find it amazing that most people can't realize what we do is niche, too niche. People call it anime fandom, but, really, we're just a niche that watches a certain set of shows because they're animated and from Japan. But it's called fandom, so everyone thinks they have to get involved with everything they hate. You can't talk to people in real life about the anime you like, because nobody wants to watch your weird kid's shows/maybe porno from Japan. Your only place to go to talk about anime is the internet, but that's just too f*cking bad, because all the anime fans want to do is talk about how much they hate anime. When you tell them they talk too much about that, they snap at you for trying to hold back their opinions. Honestly, if you don't like an anime, just stand back and don't piss off the people who are trying to enjoy it with each other. If you want to hate it with other people, that's fine; if you're asked your opinion, you can say you don't like it. But for the love of god, anime isn't made for you to hate it, it's made for you to enjoy it. So stop ruining everyone else's enjoyment.

Yeah I don't think people realize at all how niche the whole thing is nowadays.  I don't think it's that communities like MAL hate anime though such that they appear to have such a narrow and arbitrary set of criteria on which to judge whether something is good or not if they have any criteria at all that the very notion of evaluating and discussing shows has ceased to have any actual meaning anymore....at least in terms of being worthy of a coherent discussion.  Part of it might have something to do with what I feel is a tendency to judge anime more on aesthetics than content (and another part of this may be the industries own fault for embracing certain sources of content over others that actually kind of do appear to place aesthetics and dressing ahead of content and depth) such that I can regularly see a person trashing a show on the same day they champion a show that is essentially focusing on a similar issue just because one show happens to be labelled shonen as opposed to seinen or has a giant robot as a catalyst for empowerment as opposed to a magical girl.  Again just a theoretical example even though I have seen examples of precisely this.

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That may seem hypocritical, considering the fact most people here do exactly what I just ranted about, but what you guys do is not antagonistic or really bashful to the people who like the show. I think you know what I'm talking about. I probably just said a lot of things that people will automatically agree with, here. But, overall, I think your idea of just ignoring the other people is just as universal.

Yeah you know it's good that you acknowledge that cause I admit I'm hardly an angel when it comes to that sort of thing.  I'm guilty of dumping on the community myself and seeing the lot of it nothing more than pre-programmed comment robots with login ID's, but the point is I do still try to make an effort at making meaningful commentary and giving a show it's fair due at the end of the day.  Like for example much as I tend to loathe the content of most Kyoani and Shaft shows almost as a rule (not nearly as much as I loathe their individual communities though which is pretty much a universal rule at this point and a subject that I could probably write a book on with room to spare for an afterword section), I'll even admit that Haruhi and Madoka are a fun shows with some surprising depth to the narrative.

Also I see it this way, the difference between an NHRV and an MAL is that while people will criticize a show heavily on either site, I've never felt like NHRV has really tried to deny my appreciation of something has merit or that it's unjustified like MALers will.  I've never seen a discussion of a show devolve into a stupid, pointless, personal and bitter argument over which slash pairing somebody prefers and how somebody else is apparently inhuman scum if they disagree.  It's that sort of stuff that is just toxic and will kill any discussion pretty much dead.  Any time I've ever seen that sort of thing start to dominate a discussion thread is when I've known it's time to bail on it cause it's about to go to hell.

If a community is friendly: They probably don't know nearly as much anime as MAL does.
If a community knows this much about anime: They're probably bitter and hard to get along with.

It's a lose lose situation.

I think you might be giving the MAL community too much credit here.  From the vast majority of profiles and post histories that I've bothered to look into a little from what I can tell most posters on that site have never seen an anime from the year before the site came into existence save for the usual exceptions like Evangelion and Cowboy Bebop, and pretty much just claim to like whatever mega-hyped Aniplex franchises were aired after they registered.  Now that's all well and fine if those truly are their favorite franchises and that's what they enjoy the most, but I really don't think it gives the majority of the site any sort of added perspective or special insight into and on the history of anime as a whole.

Personally though I'll just settle for a good productive discussion.  Any day where I have even one, literally one moderately productive discussion on a show that I enjoy I consider it a small victory kind of situation.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on January 29, 2014, 02:12:28 AM
I guess this is worth sharing.

(http://i.imgur.com/tdkUjpD.jpg)

So somebody on MAL translated Type Moon Ace Volume 9 which contains the details and information about Fate/Stay Night 2014.


Information details:

- The Fate/Stay Night anime series is due Fall 2014

- The director is Takahiro Miura (the guy who directed Kara no Kyoukai’s 6th film)

- Character designs are done by Tomonori Sudo, Hisayuki Tabata, and Atsushi Ikariya.

- Half the scenario is completed.

- Voice recording began Fall 2013.

- Some episodes have already been completed.

- They’re doing an original route with this adaption. The original content is done and arranged by Kinoko Nasu.

- There are new costume designs – modern casual wear for Shirou and Rin and some jacket for casual Saber.

- The atmosphere will be serious, similar to Fate/Zero, but will have some comical moments.

- Fans will feel the connection to Fate/Zero.

- They want to portray Shirou properly as a main character.

- All voice actors reprise their role.

Type Moon announced Fate/Hollow Ataraxia will be port in Playstation Vita."
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Pebble on January 29, 2014, 02:36:19 AM
- The director is Takahiro Miura (the guy who directed Kara no Kyoukai’s 6th film

That both satisfies and worries me. On one hand, Kara no Kyoukai's 6th film was not particularly good in the usual, atmospheric, Kara no Kyoukai way. On the other hand, it was solidly directed, looked great(as usual), was fun... in it's own way, and Azaka Kokutou was likeable enough.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on January 29, 2014, 11:30:47 AM
As much as I loathe denizens of MAL, 4chan, Reddit, AnimeSuki, or.... well anywhere NOT here, they're all still part of the fanbase, and what they think matters just as much as what we do.

Except my opinion, of course, which is always superior.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Marid King on January 29, 2014, 01:10:37 PM
The only place I used to go to was Narutobase.net, to debate who would beat who in a fight, and how OP so-and-so tech was. It got to be pretty moronic, but it was great fun nonetheless. Everywhere else I never got into because the people seemed rather boring.

Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Kiniest on January 29, 2014, 01:19:51 PM
Another thing I'll shortly rant about is how the other side of the community can't even argue.

What he looks for in anime: A deep plot, uh... good characters! And good story and music. Oh, and art! The art has to be good, too! (has no idea what he actually likes about anime so just rolls along with everyone else and never makes his own judgments)

But Kill la Kill's plot isn't good! No, not at all! That's why it's not good! Also, it's over the top! That's bad! No, I'm not just recycling something someone else said! It doesn't have that thing other anime have! It's just not deep at all! Now, Shingeki no Kyojin! That's deep! That's got good characters and plot!

Ok, enough personal ranting. I'm starting to sound pretty damn pretentious. (Starting to?) I get we were all like that at some point, but damn, is it annoying to see around.

 This show got announced, it's going to be an anime original, so let's just sit back and wait. If it's not what people want it to be, too bad. If it's a great surprise, awesome. There's not much else to say about that.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on January 29, 2014, 01:55:25 PM
I actually think the direction of the KnK 6th film might be best suited for the tone of Fate/Stay Night since unlike Fate/Zero it wasn't deathly serious 24/7, but still serious enough (Especially in HF).

Quote
Miura: The content of Fate/Stay Night should be assembled to follow the vector introduced by Fate/Zero, we are following that logic. If we succeed things should become interesting. There is one more thing, from the time I received the post of director I decided one thing. That is to draw precisely the character who is Emiya Shirou. Shirou who is incomplete as a magician and doesn't possess any worthwile talent in the first stage of the story, adding to that Saber who is tied to an incomplete summoning, who doesn't receive enough mana and who can't fight at full strength. Despite this while claiming to Saber "Women shouldn't fights", he still throw himself in the frontine. Drawing him like this could make him a very annoying character with one wrong move. But playing the original game I realized he wasn't just an idiot who wanted to become a hero, but someone who's heart is warped somewhere. Why did he become this way, by understanding and despiting this I'm sure he could become a very attractive protagonist.

OMG, the director understands the main character. Praise teh lord.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on January 31, 2014, 05:47:48 PM
Quote
“This might be a little extreme, but in terms of story and picture, please think of Fate/Stay Night as a different thing from Zero. Stay Night’s goals and Zero’s goals are different things. If we were to impertinently connect the two, the story and mood would be ruined. Stay Night and Zero were written by different authors and have different stories, so they must both be respected in such a way.”

Nasu felt a little unreasonable and thought that he was taking the risk of saying something irrational, but was relieved to hear the staff members respond with, “Of course, we understand. This is not a sequel to Zero, but a new Stay Night.”

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/01/31/fatestay-night-co-creator-talks-upcoming-anime/
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on January 31, 2014, 05:52:34 PM
Odd because technically they are very similar. I mean they are both about a battle of ideals for the most part. The execution is what seperates them though.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on January 31, 2014, 11:15:22 PM
Stay Night is a super hero flick if you think about it lol
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Kiniest on February 01, 2014, 05:15:46 PM
And, Fate completed. That wasn't bad, but I'm going to make a wild guess and say that wasn't the part of Fate/Stay Night that made the game popular.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: TypicalIdiotFan on February 01, 2014, 06:53:00 PM
Nah.  It was something about bones and worms.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on February 01, 2014, 07:12:36 PM
And dolphins. Don't forget the dolphins.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Kiniest on February 01, 2014, 07:24:40 PM
...Your inside jokes are what's forcing me to finally play this long VN to begin with! Quit iiiiit!
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on February 01, 2014, 07:38:16 PM
Also, if you haven't seen Kara no Kyoukai (or read the translated light novels), it may be in your best interest to do so, because it really helps when they finally explain what the Holy Grail is.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Kiniest on February 01, 2014, 07:41:39 PM
Also, if you haven't seen Kara no Kyoukai (or read the translated light novels), it may be in your best interest to do so, because it really helps when they finally explain what the Holy Grail is.

Wait, Kara no Kyoukai is part of the Fate/Stay Night Universe?

Sheesh, just how huge is this universe?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on February 01, 2014, 07:49:50 PM
All of the Type Moon games are in the same universe and follow the same rules of magic. There is also a reference to Tsukihime in Heaven's Feel, but it is more of an Easter Egg than anything.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on February 01, 2014, 10:05:16 PM
Originally, KNK was just a prototype of Tsukihime but i believe ever since the film series, they decided to include KNK in the nasuverse.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on February 01, 2014, 11:34:15 PM
Nasu says KNK is part of a parallel universe in the multiverse. Tsukihime and Fate routes usually share the same set of universes (they not contradict each other). KNK however is in another set of universes (small contradictions with Tsukihime and Fate).

Melty Blood however unified the universes in a way.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on February 02, 2014, 03:18:35 PM
I'm surprised that's the case, isn't there a straight up KnK cameo in Fate?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Funky Dealer on February 02, 2014, 08:07:30 PM
I know there's an image for this somewhere, but I recall that each franchise takes place in alternate universes that share settings. Or to put it another way, characters exist but events are unique to each. There's only a couple of characters that either appear in some capacity in all franchises or can actually go between them... though that's for later.

But yeah, I don't recall any straight KnK reference in Fate. Then again, I haven't gone through the KnK novels fully, so...
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on February 02, 2014, 08:18:19 PM
I'm surprised that's the case, isn't there a straight up KnK cameo in Fate?

I believe Cornelius Alba appeared during the Kiritsugu flashbacks.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: The Big Guy on February 02, 2014, 08:50:28 PM
Aozaki Touko is indirectly mentioned at the end of Heaven's Feel.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on May 08, 2014, 10:47:29 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skiiVJ1M8Ns

If there is any more proof you need that DEEN did a bad job on Fate/Stay Night, here it is.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: MCAL on May 09, 2014, 07:23:43 AM
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1trg8g_fate-stay-night-2014-preview-1-1080p_shortfilms

Another PV.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on May 10, 2014, 08:28:31 PM
I came.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: ImperialX on May 11, 2014, 02:24:19 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skiiVJ1M8Ns

Seems that Heaven's Feel is confirmed with this.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on May 11, 2014, 05:53:57 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skiiVJ1M8Ns

Seems that Heaven's Feel is confirmed with this.

My impression was that we are getting a brand new fourth anime original arc.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: MCAL on May 11, 2014, 07:24:25 AM
@Shadowmage
That was just a mistranslation.

I don't think that really confirms Heavens Feel though. It definitely looks like it isn't UBW though, judging by the fact that Shiro has three command seals at the scene in the Church, when in UBW he has only two.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: ImperialX on May 11, 2014, 10:14:15 PM
My impression was that we are getting a brand new fourth anime original arc.

I would actually prefer a fourth anime original arc by Nasu since I'm not a big fan of Heaven's Feel and I want an arc that combines everything into a cohesive story. One can only hope.

I don't think that really confirms Heavens Feel though. It definitely looks like it isn't UBW though, judging by the fact that Shiro has three command seals at the scene in the Church, when in UBW he has only two.

Pretty sure it's Heaven's Feel. The scene where Gilgamesh confronts Sakura (@1:11 in the video) only happens in HF and not the other two arcs. Also they were featuring the Greater Grail so prominently. Only makes sense if it was HF.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Funky Dealer on May 11, 2014, 10:19:49 PM
If that was really a mistranslation, I can't see how it can't be HF considering the trailer and everything else they said. If they want to follow up F/Z with something from F/SN, it would have to be HF among the routes.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on May 11, 2014, 10:28:45 PM
Heaven's feel is not enough to address all the themes that Fate/Zero made such as Kiritsugu's ideals(This was the main focus of UBW) and the resolution to Saber's character(Fate route). It would be better if they tried a brand new route that would address all the themes Fate/Zero made. Sure i am one of those who was against about a brand new route but i'm actually interested of what will they do if they tried one right now.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Funky Dealer on May 11, 2014, 10:47:27 PM
I meant that since we're set on having adaptations of routes instead of new ones, HF makes the most sense considering its plot addresses developments from F/Z (the Matou, Kirei and Ilya's motivations, and even the Grail itself). It would certainly lack the answers to those themes you mentioned and more, but F/Z was written in response to the visual novel, not the other way around. As in, the visual novel was written as three routes and stays that way, so while F/Z was free to elaborate on the themes of each, you're left with a split if you start off with F/Z.

That's why something like ImperialX mentioned - a combination arc - would be the best fit, though it's unlikely right now that we'll get something like that.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: MCAL on May 12, 2014, 06:50:20 AM
Pretty sure it's Heaven's Feel. The scene where Gilgamesh confronts Sakura (@1:11 in the video) only happens in HF and not the other two arcs.
Isn't that the scene from the prologue (The part that plays from Rin's perspective), where Rin accidentally stumbles upon Sakura talking to someone (Gilgamesh). Also, the scene you mention happens much later in the HF route, so it seems unlikely that that scene would have been animated already.

Quote
Also they were featuring the Greater Grail so prominently. Only makes sense if it was HF.
I initially thought that too when I saw the trailer, but the Greater Holy Grail also appears in Shiro's nightmares of ten years ago, wich is probably where the scene in the trailer comes from.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: ImperialX on May 12, 2014, 10:23:49 PM
I meant that since we're set on having adaptations of routes instead of new ones, HF makes the most sense considering its plot addresses developments from F/Z (the Matou, Kirei and Ilya's motivations, and even the Grail itself). It would certainly lack the answers to those themes you mentioned and more, but F/Z was written in response to the visual novel, not the other way around. As in, the visual novel was written as three routes and stays that way, so while F/Z was free to elaborate on the themes of each, you're left with a split if you start off with F/Z.

That's why something like ImperialX mentioned - a combination arc - would be the best fit, though it's unlikely right now that we'll get something like that.

It's really tricky to make Fate/stay night into a great anime. Fate/zero already spoiled the many of HF's most dramatic moments. I can't help but feel that no matter which one of the three visual novel arcs they choose to adapt, it will simply not have the same impact if the viewer's seen Fate/zero already. Fate/stay night was written without something like Fate/zero in mind, which is why I believe that for this new anime adaptation to be successful to non-VN players, we really need a Nasu to write a new, original arc that takes into account the fact that the viewer may have already seen Fate/zero and change the plot progression accordingly.

Right now I've been recommending everyone who is interested in Fate/zero to read the visual novel first. It really makes the most sense. You get the maximum enjoyment out of the visual novels and it really doesn't take away anything from Fate/zero either aside from spoiling the ending. If you see Fate/zero first, it spoils essentially the entire HF arc and more of Fate/stay night.

So yeah, I simply don't know how this new Fate/stay night anime adaptation is going to fit in. If it's just an adaptation of HF, you bet I'm going to recommend the visual novel over it, regardless how flashy the animation is. Even if you haven't seen Fate/zero beforehand, the emotional impact of HF only works if you've played through Fate and UBW first. I'm definitely not going to recommend a HF anime adaptation to a first time viewer. I'd rather he play through Fate and UBW and get the full experience.

tl;dr Fate/stay night is a visual novel, and visual novels usually never get good anime adaptations unless you rewrite the whole script.

Also, the scene you mention happens much later in the HF route, so it seems unlikely that that scene would have been animated already.

But that's exactly why I think they're going to be doing HF. I'm not saying it's been animated already, but if they're including this scene in the trailer it implies that it's part of the storyboard.

I initially thought that too when I saw the trailer, but the Greater Holy Grail also appears in Shiro's nightmares of ten years ago, wich is probably where the scene in the trailer comes from.

This is true, I forgot about this. Maybe there's still hope for an anime original arc.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Xyzz on May 13, 2014, 03:10:22 AM
Right now I've been recommending everyone who is interested in Fate/zero to read the visual novel first.
Heh, i've been thinking about reading F/SN (after finishing Umineko), and I did already see F/Z... it'll probably still work out okay, since my memory isn't all that great and I can't remember much of anything :D
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on July 27, 2014, 04:37:04 AM
PVs

UBW TV serie


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spseKv7jtmY

HF movie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X7JEFF9mvs
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on July 27, 2014, 04:58:01 AM
*Heavy breathing*

S-so it's UBW. It's my favorite route but i thought they are gonna make a brand new one? What about my Saber x Shirou romance in Ufotable animation? -_-
Oh well at least it's my boy GARcher's route.

A heaven's feel movie....i'm not sure if that will work. It's the longest route after all(but admittedly it's because mostly of the ploughing cooking scenes) but the movie better be at least 2 hours long.

Holy shit hey zeus i'm so excited.

*still continues to breath heavily*



Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: thanosmat on July 27, 2014, 05:02:23 AM
By the news, maybe is more than one movie.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: MCAL on July 27, 2014, 05:36:18 AM
I'm pretty much screaming like a fan girl. UBW is the best route and I feel is the one that would appeal to most people.

By the news, maybe is more than one movie.
Keener viewers noticed the HF announcement was worded like the KNK announcement so you might be right.

EDIT: I liked how they did the Heaven's Feel trailer. Really gave you the idea how different in tone it is to Fate and UBW.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: hyperknees91 on July 27, 2014, 06:10:30 AM
Thank god they aren't doing Fate. I don't even think ufotable can make that route not boring.

Heavens feel is going need at like 2:30-3:00 hours of well paced time if it doesn't want to end up like the UBW movie. Though it's ufotable so I'm sure it'll be fine.

Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Reckoner on July 27, 2014, 12:25:21 PM
Multiple movies needed for HF to do a satisfying adaption. One 2 hour movie would just be the UBW movie all over again.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: maxtheax on July 27, 2014, 01:12:08 PM
There are rumours that Heaven's Feel is going to be a multi-part movie series, although no confirmations yet.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: SQA on July 27, 2014, 05:48:15 PM
There are rumours that Heaven's Feel is going to be a multi-part movie series, although no confirmations yet.

They generally make a lot more money that way as well.  The format works if you have a series you know can draw enough of a crowd.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Shadowmage on July 27, 2014, 05:53:45 PM
2 cours for UBW.  Holy crap.  Given that I think this arc is the best of the three, I'm glad it's getting such top billing.

As for the Heaven's Feel movie, it better be a trilogy.  I can see how they can reduce the arc down to just the primary interaction between Shirou and Sakura and make a single movie out of that, but there's some cool ideas in the arc that would need to get excised.
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: Redgrave on July 28, 2014, 05:59:23 AM
A trilogy with one and half hours each would be fine i guess. Maybe two hours each?
Title: Re: Fate/Zero
Post by: KS on July 28, 2014, 08:23:01 AM
I feel kind of under-qualified to talk too much about the Fate series since I've pretty much just been introduced to it within the last few years really but this all seems pretty interesting and a lot of people seem to be really excited about this.  I can almost feel the hyperventilation coming off of some people through my ethernet and can tell this is going to be a really big deal for a lot of people.  It's all very intense.  I don't think any sort of **** up no matter how minor would really go over well with this project, but I also get the sense that the people in charge of it know that.

For me though I'm kind of glad expectations really aren't that high and my level of interest is just kind of set at....well interested so I can just sit back and enjoy the show and let other people decide whether it's a masterpiece or whether it needs to go into the dumpster pile immediately if this or that detail from the novel gets misconstrued or isn't given it's due.

Oh also everyone, your waifu is the best waifu in Fate and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise least of all me  :D